My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

Also I do not want to hurt any one's feelings I know there  are many sensitive, caring, emotional people here that helps makes Jay's journey special thank you.

@clearthink

your quote: “Why is Jay making a profit from these videos of cause disturbance to you that you would attack others?”

Can you substantiate your claim that Jay is making a profit?

Please enlighten us with any information or, as requested, stop making up sht and walk away.

As it appears the moderators deleted Cleeds similar unsubstantiated post, I assume you are on their radar as well.

Looking forward to the upcoming inside Magico videos.  Excellent

@clearthink 

Another one that is creating a false narrative about me getting paid. You got any proof of what you are saying about me? That’s why mods delete posts that are about a specific person (me) and that aren’t true and nothing but noise. You’re fabricating a story about a person and that’s why it’s not cool.

@clearthink

First, the question is, what is the intent of your statement to begin with? How does your statement add to this thread. It seems as tho you believe Jay has some kind of hidden agenda. That is why you receive such negative feedback here. I see no evidence of ill intent here by Jay. Secondly I believe Jay is providing us with a great opportunity to learn about this company and tour the facility so why try to put a negative spin on what he’s doing? Also as far as I know he’s not a Mágico dealer. Watching him going though all the equipment and tweeking to get the best sound he can is enlightening and entertaining also many of us have learned a thing or two. There is no good reason to constantly disagree and point out the slightest mistake in every statement he makes. The videos allow you to hear for yourself so you don’t have to take him at his word solely. So I enjoy watching these and tho I may not alway agree with everything I don’t feel the need to discredit or insult. So if you relax and enjoy you may find something you can benefit from and the rest of it, well don’t make a big deal about it. You obviously like this thread since you follow it. My suggestion is if you disagree strongly with something be tactful and non accusatory or private text him. Hope this helps.

@carey1110 ​​​​​​

Thanks for the comment above 

jays_audio_lab

... mods delete posts that are about a specific person (me) and that aren’t true ...

Egg-zactly Jay, that’s the way it works. You got it wrong earlier in this thread when you argued the opposite:

Unfortunately don’t be surprised if it gets deleted because you are speaking the truth

I really don’t understand much of the angst in this thread, which is certainly unique on all of A’gon. While the many deleted posts make it hard to follow parts of the conversation, the ones that remain suffice to "connect the dots."

Nor do I understand the indignation that Jay, as a social media influencer, may be getting paid for his promotional videos. Personally, I hope Magico is paying him a fistful of dollars for all of his work! Shooting video is time consuming and editing video can especially be tedious. Jay has a loyal, dedicated fan base. Why should he deliver those eyeballs to Magico for free?

Jay has been perfectly transparent that he’s a dealer and has ambitions. He probably doesn’t think profit is a dirty word and neither do I, folks. It makes the world go ’round and I wish Jay nothing but the best.

Space aliens?

This thread gets weirder every day.

hahahaha, so sensitive? Quick with that mod tattle request, it is

I am thankful, grateful, and appreciative of the moderators who delete posts that are insulting, degrading, threatening or violent in nature or tone. They have been diligent, attentive, and thorough in acting to have this thread comply with Audiogon's clear rules, policies, and requirements and I would think that those who value, support, or admire Jay and his efforts, journey, and exploration would feel the same way. Jay you may want to explain this to your followers because they are not helping you although I understand that they think they are!

Agree. Great that the moderators can help to protect the insecure. That is important.

Ok,

Let's get back on track. This part 1 drops at 12:35pm ET today!

@clearthink

You might have crossed out the word commercial, but your implications still remain regarding profits from these videos, as well as the implication regarding power problems.

You continue to fabricate things. Let me try one....

You (clearthink) should be proud of the money you make from other manufacturers, with each post and implication you put on this thread. What will you do with your funds?

Dave

henry201,

You are a good man.  Music is actually my first language, which I understood well before my first English words.  I'm still developing more appreciation of the logic of English words.

I recall you posted a year ago about time alignment, using John Atkinson's data and articles.  At the time, I followed his and your points.  What wasn't discussed was how the different drivers could never be TOTALLY  time aligned.  Different sized drivers with different materials have different energy storage at varying freq, so at best only some frequencies could have the same arrival times.  Nevertheless, some Wilson speakers enable adjustment of positioning of several drivers to enable the same arrival times, creating more coherence of the various drivers.  Not perfect time alignment, but a worthwhile improvement.  

Years ago, I added the horn loaded Enigmacoustics Sopranino tweeter to my main Audiostatic panel.  At first, I aligned the surface membranes of each speaker.  A worthwhile increase in clarity due to more HF extension.  But later I realized my mistake, and then aligned the throat of the Enigma with the membrane of my Audiostatic.  I thus achieved much better clarity from this more accurate time alignment.  If I had measuring equipment, I could probably do better, but I got these improvements by ear and ballpark visuals.

Back to dynamic speakers with midrange/tweeter/midrange (MTM) configuration.  The two midrange drivers are identical, so if the throat or voice coils of each are the same distance to the listener, that would be excellent time alignment, and the clarity would be better than if all drivers are simply stacked vertically in the box, with different arrival times.

What happened to the Ultimate horn speaker?  I saw it not long ago on the website, so it must have been recently discontinued.  $600K when last available, probably the ultimate horn speaker, indeed.  Too bad.  Did you hear it at the factory?

Just finished Part 1 of the Magico factory tour.  I was under the impression that one of the Magico managers would give the tour, not Alon....very impressive.  So interesting is his philosophy on cabinet construction, driver coupling, materials used etc....I now have a greater understanding of my Magico speakers and the thought process behind designing them.  Also very interesting is Alon's explanation of 'air' and why it's not natural in music.  My previous speakers seemed to exhibit this but not my Magicos.  Thank you Jay for this one of a kind video with one of the top designers in audio today.  Looking forward to part 2.

The design of speakers, drivers, crossovers, and cabinets is an interesting aspect  and there are many different approaches and it can be a surprise to see what can result when real engineers tackle the challenges here is an example of what happens when there is an exchange of ideas among "equal minds".

ron17,

I differ with Alon Wolf on the subject of HF and "air."  I never liked the M3 and M6 that Jay demonstrated 1-2 years ago.  But I like the S7 much more for clarity.  So does Jay.  Of course, the M series probably has superior construction and drivers to the S series, although I believe the S7 has a comparable tweeter to the M6.  The differences in the tonal balance among S7/M3/M6 have to do with the overall design, most important of which is the crossover network.  It is clear from Jay's videos that the S7 is brighter and more brilliant, with more HF air than the M3/M6.  No, it is not due to Jay's top Boulder and Stromtank in the S7 system.  When Jay had the M3/M6, he still had excellent electronics.  I probably would have still preferred the S7 with those earlier electronics. 

Alon merely has personal tastes towards less brilliant sound.  A concertgoer who sits mid hall hears dramatically rolled off HF compared to the 1st row, and believes that from his mid hall perspective, many audio systems have too much HF.  That is absolutely correct.  But from the 1st row, the live sound has much more HF energy than most audio systems.  Remember that many recordings use close microphone placement, so the 1st row is the true reference point, when comparing the live experience to the audio system.

Good post. It’s a more recent thing that people are trying to tear WC down with stupid, non-supported allegations. Like they have motives for not wanting him to succeed. Maybe like Dave said, maybe they are getting paid by competitors of WC or by manufacturers who do not approve of his reviews or whatever, and wish to sabotage him? Or maybe they’re just pricks? Who knows?

The thread has always been subject to (mostly unwanted by nearly all) tangents, but this recent trend of a couple hating on WC by fabricating sh&*t is newer. Oh well - life goes on.....

@viber6,

I believe I understand your desire for clarity, definition and most of all HF extension or 'air' as Alon Wolf described it.  As a violinist seated in your section of the orchestra I believe you are hearing, and are used to extreme HF sound.  Tuning your home system and preferring that boosted section of the frequency spectrum is what you feel sounds best to you.  I believe tuning one's home audio system is very personal and subjective.  I prefer a detailed, smooth tonal balance with no frequency standing out over the other.  I don't think you would be happy with my system and I know I wouldn't be happy with yours....to each his / her own.

I have used EQ for years until I got Magico speakers.  I was friends with a recording engineer who taught me his philosophy on EQ'ing.  He said use EQ sparingly only below 200hz, only attenuate and never boost.  It is my feeling anyone using EQ to boost frequencies in the midrange or treble area is compensating for poor speaker / room interaction or compensating for hearing loss due to age, ear damage or some other deficiency.

Alon said "when you hear 'air' from a loudspeaker it's either EQ'd or you're hearing mechanical noise from the tweeter.  The whole notion of 'air' is an artifact."  His example of testing would be to use Roon's EQ and find a point at around 10-12k hz or so and boost the hell out of it and see if you hear more 'air'....you should, but it's not real, it's artificial.  The better the tweeter, the less of that noise you're hearing.

I will not argue what is right or wrong as far as what is natural or prefered sound or from which row in a concert hall is best for listening or recording.  Like I said before, what makes our hobby so unique is every room, speaker, component etc...sounds different.  It is up to the listener to tune their system to what pleases them....and not what someone else says is right or more accurate.

@purefacts,

You are out of line here.  I was responding to a poster regarding what was discussed in the last video with Alon Wolf.  You owe me an apology.

@purefacts

While we appreciate your desire to clean up the thread, you need to be aware of who the real perpetrators are or you will be run out of town along with them.

as if he was never here...

Yes, life does go on but it'd be nice if it would go on without the several posters that only want to tear down WC to build themselves up. I also get that it seems as if they are being paid by someone else to wreak havoc here, it does not look good on them. I've been around this forum for some time, but don't come here much anymore due to the petty behavior of some. But I continue to read Jays thread daily. Thanks for all the hard work Jay. 

Hey everyone,

Just saw all of this. Thanks for the comments above and the support from everyone. It certainly feels great to have people in my corner and this doesn’t go unnoticed.

Anyhow, the next video will hopefully drop on Sunday but I’ll know for sure on Saturday so be patient. 

The next part focuses on research and development as well as quality control. Stay tuned, it will be amazing and crystal clear in terms of audio and video so i encourage you all to watch it on your TV if possible.

Just finished the first video finally.

Excellent work Jay and kudos to your filming and video ’crew’. Most professionally polished video on your channel to date imho

That video was jammed with great info. Really appreciated Alon’s explanation of the benefits of a sub as well as the diffraction issue and impact on frequency propagation (now worried about the corners in my speakers lol). He clearly has a gift for design but also was impressed by his articulate explanations on the array of more technical subjects and his passion for it which comes through in a charismatic engineer kind of way. As an engineer, that is relatively rare and definitely a compliment. Looking forward to the next drop.

ron17,

It would be interesting to ask Alon what degree of listening experience he has in concert halls of unamplified music.  My guess is that he likes to sit at a fair distance.  I said it is correct for the listener at such a distance to claim that live music has less HF than a good recording played on a good audio system.  However, he is ignoring the reality of the vastly different HF balances coming from close vs far distances.  I have done enough of these experiments in various halls to make my truthful statements.

It would be a useful exercise if Alon and I collaborated on making a typical good classical commercial recording which uses several microphones hung closely over several sections of the stage, designed to pick up full details of all the instruments, and skillfully mixed for balance, of course without junky processing effects of most pop/rock recordings.  While the performance is taking place, we both sit in the 1st row and in the 10th row, and move back and forth to hear several sections of the music.  Go home immediately and hear the playback of the recording.  Try to remember the 1st row and 10th row sound.  The 1st row will be a reasonable approximation of the recorded sound on an accurate SOTA system WITH extended airy HF.  But on a Magico M3 or M6 that I heard from Jay, the sound will be rolled off in HF.  Now boost HF on the Magico playback of the recording, and the result will be much closer to the reality of HF as heard in the 1st row.  

Alon would never accept my invitation, LOL.  No matter.  I have done all this by myself over several years when I made recordings.  That's how I came to create my system where EQ, especially careful HF boosts tailored to the music and situation are essential.  My experiences occurred when I was much younger and my hearing tests were excellent.  However, if anyone seeks smoothed over sound lacking some HF detail, that's their prerogative.  Just don't be fooled by specious claims that most audio systems have too much HF.  That is merely a statement of their personal tastes.  I don't know if your recording engineer friend recorded classical music or what his sound preferences were.  He may have been used to studio monitors and never heard superbly accurate electrostatics or fine electronics which I own.

The S7 is clearly a brighter speaker than M3 or M6.  I even surmise that someone else at Magico designed it, because it doesn't fit with Alon's tastes.

@viber6

Alon Wolf played violin at age six, then recorder and classical guitar.  He won several scholarships to a conservatory in Israel, and, after coming to the US, continued studies at the San Francisco Conservatory of Music.  I'm guessing he has a great deal of listening experience to unamplified music from up close, and also at greater distances.  I believe his speaker designs have changed tonally from his first design to his latest M series designs.  When I first heard Magico several years ago I thought they were analytical and a touch bright.  The M series is so different sounding to me....warm, rich yet very detailed.    

As far as sitting in the front row vs the tenth row of a concert hall, I would never sit in the front row....just like I would never sit in the front row of a movie theater.  I prefer a more balanced sound where I can hear all of the instruments equally.  I can understand and appreciate you preferring the first row.  Sounds to me like the S series is voiced a little more tilted to the top end vs the M series, although I would love to hear the M6's with Jay's current setup and Transparent cables....my guess is they would sound closer to the S7's than they did when Jay had them before....only smoother and more refined.  And as far as someone else at Magico designing the S7, I would bet money that you're wrong about that.

Although an older design I would love to see Jay get a hold of a Q series Magico.

Right.  I remember many years ago, before Magico was born, there were Alon speakers, maybe only 1 model.  I wasn't impressed with what I heard.  

I heard the Magico A3 for $12K a few years ago.  I went to hear the Alsyvox Tintoretto planar ribbons at that dealer, and wasn't impressed at all, especially for $69K.   The A3 was at least as good for its clarity.  Of course the huge Alsyvox had a big soundstage, but who cares if the clarity was mediocre.  This dealer was honest enough to say that the A3 was his best value, and the more expensive Magico series weren't much better.  In those days, I would calibrate my ears at home with my system, but with no EQ, in order to get a reference point for comparison to when I later went to a dealer or someone's home.  Still, the Alsyvox and A3 were veiled and muddy compared to my system without EQ.

It's fine to prefer the 10th row as your sound preference.  However, I have always been interested in understanding the details/nuances in the music as much as possible, and building an audio system with that goal.  Some recordings have a front row presentation, and others have the 10th row presentation.  Microphones are usually placed close to the musicians, and there may be distant mikes mixed in for ambience to get the 10th row sound.  I came to vastly prefer close up recordings, which on my tweaked system sound like the 1st row experience.  The recordings engineers of these close recordings are skillful to keep the musical balance.  With close recordings, all of the instruments have maximum detail and still are well balanced.  However, with 10th row recordings, the balance is there, but all the instruments have drastically reduced musical info revealed.  Kinda like equal opportunity mediocrity, the lowest common denominator for all.  The same goes for live listening in the 1st vs 10th row.  In fact, I have been dismayed at the marked loss of detail even in the 2nd row.  But NOTHING is as exciting as the stage sound of all the instruments, not just my violin.  Most fun were the rehearsals in a church basement where we were all very close.  I heard the focused HF content of mid bass instruments like the French horn that I never appreciated from even the 1st row in the audience.  The conductor was Arturo Delmoni, a famed violinist who made the rounds at Stereophile shows 30 years ago.  Arturo smiled as I said how I loved the tuba's complete full spectrum sound.  On most audio systems, it sounds like a leaden elephant with little HF content.

I agree about movie theater close ups, with bloated overblown speaker sound.  But unamplified close up natural sound at a sensible SPL is detailed and beautiful.

Alon doesn’t design the speakers, guys. 
 

I’d also agree Magico has changed tonality regularly from V to Q to S and now M. 

Hi, it’s my first post.

I had four Magico models over the past 15 years. The Mini, Q3, S5, and now the M3. They evolved and improved, but the overall idea stayed the same. It’s been a great journey.

The Q series is the only model that remains unheard by me. I might end up buying one at some point. That said, I’m getting exceptional results with the s7 right now. It’s nerve wracking to disassemble this system because my ears have heard so much and this time they are telling me to be careful.

The s7 has the most amazing low registers in my room. It’s full, deep, fast and with zero overhang but I’m sure my 3060 has a lot to do with it.

The trick with Magico is POWER (watts) and your grid. If you work on both of these, you’ll have a hard time thinking about another speaker.

I’ve owned my fare share of speakers and ported speakers need far more attention to placement IN MY ROOM than sealed cabinets. I always had to move my ported speakers all over the room to try to get the most articulate bass and yet all of these hours spent on this NEVER gave me the same results than the s7 did when i threw them in the room - just thrown in the room - not kidding.

Lastly , my stromtank has also been a key component. It helps to smooth - not smoother over the highs and the overall character of the speaker while still retaining the leading edges intact. The sheer clarity at any volume level and the level of satisfaction is enhanced ten fold.

When i think of what speaker to replace my s7 with, i don’t find many answers. However, I do still have a thing for Sonus Faber Aida 2 but I’m now second guessing myself because that’s a ported speaker. It leads to a ton of hours dialing in the bass.

The dealer who i filmed in here a week or two ago will articulate things for you guys. It will be another interesting commentary about my system. 

Jay- I would wager that you love the S7 because it happens to be the best acoustical match for your room acoustics more than the electronics. You’ve had top-level stuff for a long time now. I’ve had many excellent speakers in my room and sometimes you put one in and it just clicks with everything and you know it right away. I’m not sure there’s any way to predict which one will mate with the room and your taste other than to try. And, as in your case, the S7 happens to be somewhat less money than many others. Like your buddy in PR that you helped with the Wilsons. He was lucky that they happened to work so well. Even you were surprised. The speaker-room interface is a huge factor in the system sound and unfortunately, I’m not sure you can ever predict it. Narrow it down, yes, but not the final result.

Thanks for the review on the MC452 and Pass amps. I had the MC452 in my system for a short time. In short is sucks. I had higher expectations for it. Bought and sold it. Only good thing on Mac stuff they do hold value well. But there are better amps for less. Thanks again I agree with your findings in comparison.

@jays_audio_lab Yes Jay I’d be very careful in making big changes at this point. Look at all you’ve been through to get where you are and to put together the right combination of everything to suit this space. Any move at this point must carefully calculated and not irreversible.  You have fine tuned to such a great extent. Now you have a very linear system with excellent resolution. Once you start into analog you have just about as much tweeking there as well to keep you busy for a while.  However that being said change is fun too. I can’t count the number of systems I’ve gotten where I wanted it only to begin again in a totally different direction which I consider part of the fun.  Great job here that you’ve done, thanks for taking us along. 

@mschwarz 

Welcome to the thread.
 

My apologies for not knowing this.

Who then designs Magico speakers if not Alon and can someone point to information on this? Seems like a bold statement without support?

@ron17

Thank you. Been a Magico fan for a long time. Great products and great company. I visited the factory twice. Highly recommended.  

@keithr

Where did you hear that Alon doesn’t build his speakers? Based on what i saw in the factory, i find your comment QUITE DIFFICULT to believe. If your comment is a "he/she said" or what you "heard" then it would be more of an opinion rather than actual fact.

Facts are quite important when making a statement like that or else you can make anyone look like the milli vanilli story. 

I too find it hard to believe that Alon doesn't have his hands in every aspect of design, voicing and build process.  Yes keithr, please show us proof of what you stated.