My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

Keithr is a "registered Magico hater". For years, constant drip of unfounded hate on all channels possible.

Interesting... Why does he hate it ? 

Yair Tamman basically designs the speakers, Jay. He’s been the CTO of the company for years. Alon gives guidance of course. And yes, Ive met Alon in person several times. 

Maybe others should calm down and stop the stupid attacks.

So sorry Keith, but maybe your comment sounded like Alon has nothing to do with the products, hence the reactions🤔 You are back paddeling now, which is fine. I don’t think anyone thought that Magico is a one man show.

I don't think any reputable company is a one man show. Impossible for one man to do it all. 

I have also read dozens of posts by keithr on WBF and Agon conveying his dislike for Magico.  Anything he says about Magico sends up a red flag for me.  keithr's original post was:  "Alon doesn’t design the speakers, guys."   I agree with henry201 that it sounded like Alon has nothing to do with the design process, which I believe is false.

@keithr 

I will ask him. What should I tell him ? What do you remember or is there anything i should tell him that rings a bell ? 

He will respond to me for sure. I don't think he will deny it if he did indeed meet you but i need to refresh his memory of your meeting with him. 

Sorry guys, Im done with this. Jay, feel free to give me a call and happy to discuss. I forgot rbach for whatever reason has a thing against me and I’m not going to engage anymore. 

People can’t have honest conversations here anymore. 

fair enough. but why did you delete your post about your respect for magico, consideration of their speakers and discussion/meeting Alon?  honestly confused. 

Thanks,I just bought the 532h,and love it.Also some stealth pgs interconnects.Iam surprised how good this cable sounds for the money.Very recommended.Thanks again.

This discussion between keithr and rbach is interesting....

 I have to agree with rbach and henry201 (and WC too, based on his comment) that keithr made it sound like Alon does not do any of the design.   I honestly don't think these folks are attacking - just questioning the statement you made.   I think keithr has now clarified it, so  that's good.

And, is it true that keithr has posts on other forums, indicating a dislike for Magico?   If true, then keithr should just own his opinion and not claim that folks are attacking.  If it's not true, then I understand the attacking comment, and I would question rbach's motives.

Dave

Well I don’t think Keithr’s statement that Alon wasn’t the chief designer makes him a”Mágico hater”. That’s pretty strong language and only serves to provoke. Maybe he’s not a fan of Mágico I don’t know, but stating Alon wasn’t the designer isn’t a hateful remark toward the company. Not the way I took it anyway. Im sure Alon has put together a highly specialized team of individuals to accomplish the goals of his company.  I think Jay has made his Mágico’s sing and I believe he is capable of making a lot of speakers sing in his system. His relentless pursuit of making a system sing have earned appropriate recognition here on this site as well as YouTube. 

@carey1110 

I think you missed rbach's mention that keithr has posts on other forums, indicating a dislike for Magico - that is what led him to think that.

Dave

@thezaks i get it I just didn’t think his comment that Alon wasn’t the only designer d warranted the comment that’s all. Hey not a big deal we all have a right to our opinions including rbach. 

@thezaks (Dave)

Thank you for seeing the back and forth between me (and 3 others) and keithr for what it really was.  I was perplexed to read keithr's post on this thread  "Alon doesn’t design the speakers, guys."  I didn't use abusive language or bad mouth him, I simply wanted for him to clarify his statement.  For keithr to then post   "I forgot rbach for whatever reason has a thing against me and I’m not going to engage anymore."   I believe what he is talking about is last year when I called him out for speaking in a negative way towards Jay on WBF.  Here is my response to him on this thread and his quote from WBF.....

rbach
189 posts
10-30-2021 at 09:12am 
@keithr

I believe zprr does know what he's talking about. Your statement about Jay in your WBF post did not paint you in the same light as Jay (just a couple of crazy amp guys). Your statement was derogatory towards him. You were complaining about Jay calling Pass Lab amps "mid fi" and the way the hi end has gotten so expensive. Like I said in my previous post to you.
  
'keithr, don't you think it would be more accurate to say the crazy amp dude placed Pass Labs in his middle tier group based on amps he has personally owned?'
  
You made a mistake and it's time to move on instead of trying to wiggle out of it.
 
And for everyone's pleasure, here it is again.
From a post keithr made on WBF

"When I hear folks say $15k amplifiers are budget oriented, I feel the hobby has lost its way (see the crazy amp dude's YouTube channel that considers Pass Labs "mid fi"). The average Stereophile reader's system is $19k, but this is WBF after all so I guess it's expected. The reason this hobby has shrunk so much is the focus in the audiophile media and community on high priced bling of the month - I chuckled two years ago when TAS declared the $50k speaker category as "highly competitive." Dagostino is famously designed on form over function. Have you seen the internals of a Constellation compared with the expensive case? Why does carbon fibre and installation lights *on the back(!)* of a Chronosonic impress people?"

Also, here are just a few posts keithr has made on Agon.  I am on a business trip currently and don't have time to go through the many 'no so great posts on Magico' made by keithr on WBF.

  
From Audiogon:
keithr
1,281 posts
04-23-2021 at 10:10pm 
Haven’t checked in on this thread in months, Magico with big SS seems sorta boring. But I guess Wilson and Magico with the goal of hearing a pin prick on a stage is appealing to some. 

Meanwhile, Fyne F1-12s land in my room in a few weeks :) Figuring out what the perfect amp will be, but when 50 watts is enough there are so many options, mostly inexpensive. I’m surprised Jay hasn’t gone in this direction as an amp guy like me.

keithr
1,281 posts
04-24-2020 at 09:32pm 
Still haven’t heard a musically convincing Magico system in a decade. They are analytical, non-dynamic, and not particularly coherent. YG is a much better speaker in aluminum land.

keithr
1,281 posts
06-10-2019 at 08:22am 
Interesting how ears are different - I found the Vandy room sleepy (as usual) and the M2s on Burmester borderline dead. I guess I prefer more dynamic sound (and tbh don't value imaging as much). I, too, am sensitive to hot tweeters from all the way back in my Dynaudio days vs the popular JM Lab at the time.

keithr
1,281 posts
12-05-2018 at 08:19am 
I've heard the A3s on Vac monoblocks at the LA Audio Show and me and two others found them dynamically restricted and kinda dead sounding.

I have owned several Magico speakers and currently own a pair.  There are many speakers I don't care for but am careful not to criticize them publicly.  I have nothing personally against keithr....I just think he should read what he writes before pressing send.

All one need to do is search "Magico" Posted by" keithR" on WBF. Hundreds of posts mainly of unfounded hate. You’ll notice they hardly make sense if you bunch them all together. I wonder if he ever even heard a pair.

The funny part is that after years of searching (and hundreds more "KeithR’s Dream Speaker" posts), he ended up buying a speaker he can’t/will not use (YG Hailey). I don’t blame him, they are not that good (and I like YG). I did consider them but ended up with the Magico A5. A MUCH better speaker at half the price. But KithR will never admit to that 😶

Hi everyone,

Part 2 - " Research and Development " drops tomorrow at 12 pm ET. Please subscribe and turn on your notifications so you are informed once the video drops. 

This video has outstanding video quality and it is 52 minutes long!!

I urge you to watch the whole thing because if you skip through it, you'll miss a ton of things. It is jammed packed with quality content so take your time watching it. 

Ok folks, 

Here is PART 2: 

Well Jay I’m very impressed with the video production. More so I think than the Mágico factory. You and your wife did a great job with this.  Congratulations!

@carey1110 

Thank you! Much appreciated!

Agreed on the video production WC - great job!   You make it fun, because you are like a kid in a candy store, and on display is your passion and your humility - just being a real person and treating the whole thing like a privilege. 

Dave

Great job and much appreciated! 

The more impressive job was from Jay, rather than the Magico factory tour itself.  No doubt the workmanship at Magico is top level.  But let the drooling wear off, and face reality.  All the "perfect" measuring tools don't mean much if the tonal balance of a particular speaker is not to anyone's liking.  Alon refers to the A series as "mundane" but the M project was driven by his sonic preference for a particular HF balance.  Even If I were a billionaire, I would still prefer the S7 to M6 as evidenced from Jay's videos, and likely not care for the M9.  Henry201 preferred the "mundane" A5 to the 2x the price YG speaker.  

This show is basically promotion based on technical specs.  A publication called Audio Science Review (ASR) is based on technical specs with absolutely no attention paid to listening.  The ASR rightly gets no respect from most audiophiles.

Jay, don't lust over your next speaker based on high price and specs.  You didn't care for the M6, but your favorite speaker so far is the S7 which is less than half the price of the M6.  No, it is not from your great Boulders and Stromtanks--it is because you prefer the tonal balance of the S7.  Even if you win the lottery, I doubt you would prefer the M9 in your room.  And don't choose the highest price flagship speaker from another company--it could easily have a tonal balance you don't like.

@viber6

Alon refers to the A series as "mundane"...

Did you watch the video? Where did he say that?

I watched the whole video.  I think it was in the 2nd half, nearer to the end.  They go into the room just for the A series.  Jay has a notice about the A series.  Alon probably used the word, "mundane" or a similar word.  In the earlier part, Jay lifted the heavy 50 lb face of solid aluminum cut from the 450 lb aluminum block.  After all this impressive demonstration of the top materials used in the M series, maybe also for the S series, Alon notes the simpler cabinet materials in the A series.  None of this matters at all.  The main factors in the sound you like from your A5 come from the choice of drivers, crossovers, which determine the tonal balance you like.

About 10 years ago, I borrowed the Viola Labs Concerto amplifier, $25K for merely a 100 watt stereo class AB amp.  The case was cut from a solid aluminum block, and weighed 53 lbs, a lot for a tiny case which would have weighed 20 lbs if conventional materials were used.  All this fancy resonance reduction for an amp whose sound was nothing special.  Beware of audio jewelry.

The main factors in the sound you like from your A5 come from the choice of drivers, crossovers, which determine the tonal balance you like.

I can assure you, if I could afford the M6 (or the M3), I would have them.

I am not the guy who needs to trash superior stuff just because I cant afford it. 

I have spoken to Alon on a couple of occasions. He definitely is involved in the design of the speakers in regards to its overall 'voicing'. Alon once told me that the S series was for those who needed a more bass inflected sound whereas the Q series ( at the time) was for those who liked a more refined bass sound with a little more resolution, but less output. This is where I also feel the main differences lie between the S line and his older Q line. 

Not sure why folks think Keithr is a Magico hater, just because someone doesn't happen to adore a speaker line doesn't make them into a hater, IMHO.

henry201,

Never mind money and prestige, showing off to your acquaintances what expensive equipment you have.  Nobody should buy anything without listening first, unless you are well connected like Jay, who can buy at a sizable discount so that he can sell without taking losses.  Based on my listening to Jay's videos, I prefer the S7 to the M6.  I can easily afford either speaker.  I wouldn't have the M6 in my listening room even if someone paid me the MSRP of $180K to be forced to listen to them.  

But if you happen to prefer the sound of the M6/M3 to cheaper Magicos, then you can save up to buy them.

@viber6 

Nobody should buy anything without listening first

I have listened to the M6 many times. A good friend of mine has them with a full CH gear. By far the best audio experience I ever had.
Where did you hear the M6, and what drove them (I assume you know that listening to gear on YT doesn’t count)?

I think if Jay were to drop a pair of M6's into his current system it would be a different story.  The Stromtank, Aurender N30, MSB Select2, Boulder 3010 / 3060 and transparent cables are a big part of the overall tonal presentation.  I bet Jay would prefer the M6's over the S7's.  Over the last month, Jay has gone from Transparent SC's to Gryphon Vanta SC's, I'm guessing to tame that slight aggressive (at higher volumes) tonal balance of the S7's.  The M6's would be more refined yet very detailed due to the Boulders, Select2 and Transparent cables....just my opinion.

@ron17

+1

It would certainly be interesting to read what Jay has to say about that. 

@ron17 

Nice post.

@jays_audio_lab 

Jay, great job on Magico Parts 1 & 2. Much appreciated and enlightening.

ron17,

No doubt the M6 would sound more articulate and revealing with Jay's present Boulder + Stromtank, than it did with his previous electronics on the M6.  But you and I opined that the S7 is a brighter speaker than the M6.  Alon himself stated his goal of the M project is to avoid the HF extension and air of many systems.  He claims that this is artificial.  I disagree, as I stated in several posts.  It appears you have enough experience with Magico to know that the M series are warmer and richer sounding than other Magico series.  Remember that differences between speakers are much greater than between electronics.  The M6 will therefore have its character no matter what the electronics are, and so will the S7.  So I predict that Jay would still prefer the S7 to the M6, even with his present electronics.  I just hope he has the wisdom to know by now what the speaker does and what electronics do, and not have to spend crazy money on getting the M6 again just to confirm my assessment.  It was one thing in the old days to get the inexpensive Luxman M900u amp several times to try in different systems, but speakers are ridiculously expensive and HEAVY.  It is smarter to learn lessons than to continue to break backs and bank accounts for the sake of experimentation.

The S7 with warmer electronics and cables will still have more articulation and HF info than the M6 with the most ruthless and revealing electronics and cables.

I believe the M6 is undoubtedly the superior speaker. It has more finesse, it's more beautiful and more polite while still giving you the full scoop of resolution but served on a different plate. 

The S7 is more brute, I'd say probably more bass too and the type of speaker you can throw parties with and jam out. You have all the bass you could ever want but the tweeter is more forward than the M6's. 

I don't doubt that the M6 would sound significantly better in here with my electronics. I feel i can make just about any speaker sound phenomenal because my electronics are that incredible. 

If we think about the best value, well yes the S7 is the winner. I think it has the sweet spot and the best price performance than any other magico. Does this make it better than the rest? Nope... It just gives you A LOT for your hard earned dollars. 

Jay,

I agree with how you described the sonic characters of the S7 and M6.  Just a further word on resolution.  Perhaps the M6 is more beautiful, in its even tonal balance, which ron17 also likes.  But more polite is equivalent to saying that HF are reduced, compared to the more forward tweeter of the S7.  Many people don't like more HF, but the upper midrange and HF are the regions that convey most of the harmonics/overtones of voices and instruments.  Also, the ear is most sensitive at 3-4 kHz.  Often delicate HF details get lost in the M6 type of presentation, so having more HF output is an obvious way to hear more of the delicate upper midrange/HF detail.  The art of HF boosting just enough but not too much, is what yields more information content while not destroying the beauty and balance of the music.  The S7 has lots of bass to balance out the forward tweeter, so the S7 is musical in that clever way.  The Wilson XLF also had this U-shaped freq balance--big bass and HF, relatively depressed midrange which made the tweeter stand out.

At 0:45, Alon recommends the early 70's jazz album, "Magico."  I never heard of this, but many unamplified audiophile jazz classics come from that period.  Titles like Jazz at the Pawnshop, The King James Version (Harry James as an old Big Band trumpeter; his heyday was in the 40's), Laudate (a choral group doing church music).  Pawnshop is totally natural and intimate--you are sitting at the table close to the small stage, immersed.  King James is more distant, but still upfront without garbage muddy reverberation.  Laudate is more distant still, but with natural acoustics, again without garbage processing.  

Get "Magico" on vinyl and compare it to the digital file.  When will your vinyl setup be ready?

Good question Viber!

Charlie Haden 'Magico' released 1979. Qobuz has the hi res version.  Not sure if that was the album Alon was referring to.

No cartridge yet. The distributor said it won’t be here until end of the month which means it probably won’t be here until next year and I’m not about to embark on buying another cartridge that takes months too or a subpart cheaper one that is readily available because the narrative will be that i bought a garbage cartridge so the comparison of the turntable vs my MSB will be unfair. So in short folks, i don’t know when the turntable will be ready because the cartridge seems to be taking long. It’s as if it is traveling on a camel’s back.Maybe Santa Claus will deliver it Christmas day?

For now, just disconnect your minds from the turntable and focus on Gryphon apex and commander which will for sure be here before the stupid cartridge. 

Meanwhile, you can go to Oz's place and listen to the LP/digital comparison with the same recording if he has a basic setup.  Or maybe you can listen with your local friends who have good LP and digital systems.  Better than nothing.

Listening to "Magico - Carta de Amor" with Jan Garbarek, Egberto Gismonti, & Charlie Haden. Not sure if this is the one, but it's what I found on Tidal.

I just finished the second video (but fast-forwarded thru some it, and was annoyed by the "music" playing under some parts, not sure why it was there). Clearly a high-tech outfit. One of several I suppose. I was left flat. Just my opinion, not more. Definitely had a "fan-boy" tone.  No offense meant by that.  

All good. Just for the record, I’ve received amazing feedback from these videos. I’d say at least 90% has been nothing but excellent feedback. The other 10% is always the typical negative feedback that comes with doing this. I’m absolutely beyond HAPPY with the work I’ve done so far and I know a lot more is coming my way. My work in the Magico Factory will not be easy to top by any other YouTuber. I’ve hired an editor and bought two other cameras plus my wife helped filming. Im going to beat my last best video production and right now this is my best work to date.

Be on the lookout for part 3 which is my interview with Alon. I did ask a lot of interesting questions that he’s never answered publicly. I’ve saved some footage for my members only section of my website once it launches which by the way, it already has about 40 exclusive videos in the members area. I am in the middle of testing right now so once that’s done, I will announce it.

ron17 and pokey77,

On Youtube, I found the 1979 radio broadcast of Magico Jazztage from the Berlin Philharmonie.  This is a large concert hall suited to the big audience expected for this distinguished group.  The miking is close on the stage.  Even with YT, the sound is exciting.  Listen to the crisp plucks of the bass played by Haden.  At about 5:00, look at the picture.  The "reeds" are from the alto sax played by Garbarek.  The sax family encompasses a large freq range, from bass to soprano.  (BTW, I knew an amateur group called the Casual Sax Saxophone Sextet, LOL). The Magico alto sax has the crispness I remember from occasions on the NYC subway platform where I would hear groups like this.  I stood 10 feet away for maximum thrills of the crisp tonality with bite.  I threw coins into the instrument cases for a 2 min listen while waiting for the train.  Better than the concert hall even the 1st row, and forget about the 10th row where the essential tonality is nearly lost.

All this is best reproduced with a speaker like the S7, with electronics that reveals the bite of all the instruments--alto sax, guitar, piano, bass.