My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

@deludedaudiophile 

Are you trying to add to this discussion? If so, great. But if you've nothing good to add, please consider not posting at all. Keeping it cordial is what should be the standard. 

Well, this thread seems to be getting deluded by someone that obviously doesn't have enough to do.  Why bother boring us with your constant nitpicking when you could be annoying another thread? 

"A lot of it has to get lost before it gets to us" .. referring to streaming ... said by someone, posting videos, and posting on a forum, on a website, over the Internet.

@jays_audio_lab Love your last video. I am super impressed with the fact that you are open to the idea of analog. I think the points about physical media are also spot on. In my system, SACD/CD and vinyl are the two source options, not streaming as I believe too much is lost in that format due to what you discuss.

As to a cartridge, this is actually not the make or break of the front end, as the tonearm and the table ( which you have covered nicely) are more important as to ultimate SQ. I have heard the Kronos set up on a number of occasions, ( my local dealer used to be their dealer). The set up works well with a variety of cartridges. The Ortofons work well in that arm ( the new Verismo, for example), albeit one has to be careful as to the ultra low output of some of their models. The Lyra Etna Lambda is another great option. ( if in budget). I would probably not entertain a Koetsu or similar if you want more resolution in the system.

Grey9hound has an excellent recommendation of the LP's of Dire Straits.  This way Jay can definitively hear the LP vs digital versions of the same recording.  This is the only way to tell the pros and cons of each format, otherwise it is an apples/oranges debate.  Even on a $500K turntable/arm, with a euphonic Koetsu cartridge the LP will be far inferior to digital for clarity and overall accuracy.  I can tolerate a little digititis but I hate veiled mush from euphonic cartridges.  With SOTA neutral moving coil cartridges like Lyra Atlas, Ortofon MC Anna Diamond, plus the SOTA Boulder phono preamp, the LP will challenge and likely beat the best digital for overall accuracy and naturalness.  In deference to daveyf, this may not be true with certain turntables.  Years ago before I got a CD player, I had the SOTA Sapphire TT (the brand, not the SOTA hype) and compared my Linn Valhalla TT with the same arm and cartridge.  The Sapphire was bass heavy and muddy, so it would have failed to compete against CD.  I have no idea what the intrinsic tonal balance of the VPI or the Kronos are, but if they are bass heavy, then the lighter tonal balance of the Rega TT/arm would let the LP compete successfully against digital.  Don't assume that expensive is better.  

There are only a few examples of the same recording on both LP and digital formats, but it takes only a few to settle the vinyl/digital issue.  When my Denon 305 cartridge was younger, the LP completely wiped out the CD on the same recordings in every parameter.  The CD was hopelessly veiled, compared to even crude mass marketed vinyl setups.  I did these comparisons in non audiophile friends' systems.  Now my CD player beats my aging Denon cartridge, but the cartridge is still playing the music, so my laziness lets me just settle down.  All this is true even with mediocre LP's.  I have only a few expensive pressings, but my mediocre LP's will still beat the CD version when I get around to getting a new cartridge mounted.

Jay, when you are set up with a great, neutral cartridge, you can do an A/B shootout between LP and digital versions of the same recording.  Even if there is record noise from the scraping needle, the increased information revealed from the LP should outweigh the noise.  

You can't be married.

I would think the first thing to acquire after the table...would be records, lots of records. Luckily there are still a great number of really good outlets to buy vinyl and now a lot of really excellent new albums in all genres. A good starting point would be some of the MoFi LP's addressed above, but one could also invest in the Tone Poet series that I think gives one an excellent intro to jazz. ( even the new Blue Note reissue series at a slightly lower price point should be on the radar).

For the records, you will probably eventually want to get some sort of record cleaner machine and some folks even invest in a device that flattens warped records.   It may seem a bit crazy, but it's different, and different can be fun.

Dave

Thank you everyone for this conversation above. This is GREAT healthy discussions that i need to hear more of.

I need to look through the music you sent me @grey9hound for sure.

Anyhow, Oz just left my room. He came over to listen to my system and you will get to hear his thoughts on my system as well as me giving you all more information with regards to my turntable journey. Oz will be the person setting it up for me and by the way he had interesting things to say about my all Digital rig.

The video will drop tomorrow since we just finished shooting it.

Thanks to everyone for chiming in above and making your recommendations with regards to vinyl. You all can school me on this one and I can take the back seat. No problem with that.

Jay

Buy Mofi Vinyl . (Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab)

I have a 180 Gram 45RPM Dire Straits -Dire Straits (Original Master Recording)

and 180 gram 45RPm Dire Straits -Communique (Original Master Recording)

They sound fantastic.

The One Step Ultra-Discs should be even better, but, selections are few.

BTW, there is a lot of good music on the USB drive that you got from me.

It just takes time to explore it all and find what you like.😀

@jays_audio_lab   When I talk about the cost of analog, I am not just talking about the cost of the hardware, but also the cost of the software! I currently own about 15K LP's, which i have acquired over a near lifetime of collecting. ( at one time I had nearly 100K LP's, but have weeded out to what i consider the cream..although still going to be doing more of that). There is absolutely no way I could afford to acquire this collection today if I had to start over. This is the real 'hidden cost' of great analog...the LP collection that is large enough and of enough quality, plus the ability to acquire it. I have had friends who have bought large collections, only to realize that what they bought was vastly over-priced and generally of poor quality from not only a condition perspective, but more importantly from a rarity and collectibility/SQ perspective. 

IME, a great analog set up means exactly that--someone able to properly do an extremely accurate set-up and also for the user to understand what it is that they are going to be able to achieve with their particular analog hardware. 

Just plopping a good table and arm/cartridge down into one's system is just half of the battle...the synergy with the upstream gear also needs to be considered, and the flexibility of the various upstream gear as well. 

While viber6 is correct, i do believe in the Linn hierarchy of what is most important in the turntable's build, i also think that the synergy between components perhaps even trumps that. If you get your tonearm wrong for the cartridge, or your cartridge mismatched with your phono preamp, or you tonearm cable mismatched to your arm or cartridge--you will hear the detrimental results. 

Will the Kronos better the MSB DAC that is in discussion, IME it will easily better it with certain music and with the right set up...IMHO digital always has a sheen of digititis ( for want of a better word) and when you hear that go away, it is hard to not hear it again. ( and the MSB Select 2DAC is one of the best two DAC's I have ever heard), but compared to great analog ( or better still- great tape) it comes in a fairly distant second. ( or third). 

The key to avoiding musical boredom is expanding your horizons.  Slowly dip your toes into classical.  Great classical music has lasted 500 years or more.  Why?  You don't have to be a scholar to continue to appreciate and understand it, although there is a learning curve with every musical language.  People expose  younger generations to it, who recognize its power and depth.  Despite my nearly 70 years of attentive listening, I know only a minute fraction of it, so there is much to learn.

Further, I have a comparatively small number of favorite pieces, but I never get tired of hearing them.  The complexity of a classical piece means that I hear something new the next time I hear it.  There is room for many interpretations of each piece.  I have many recordings of each piece by different performers, and even by the same performer over decades of his career.  I have recordings of the same performers on different record labels, so I can hear how the different engineers recorded the sound.  The tone of the same violin is vastly different according to the recording techniques used.  The same violin used by different players shows similarities and differences.  When I hear the actual tone in concert close up, I can judge which recording is most truthful.

Equipment changes are interesting up to a point, but EVERY audiophile eventually gets tired of it all.  Seek the music.  Buy some LP's that have a physical presence, with interesting record jacket musical commentary and artwork.  Watch Mike Fremer's tour of his house LP collection where he says that digital downloads are nothing compared to his stories of what he was doing when he bought that physical LP, and how the tangible feel of it brings back his memories.

Jay take a break it will do you good. Don’t let this hobby become the only thing you’re interested in. There are other things in life to enjoy too. Live it!  Music is more appreciated if it taken occasionally in moderation.  I think we all wax and wain in and out of the hobby to some extent. Sometimes you have to just enjoy it instead of always trying to improve improve improve. Familiarity breeds contempt. We all enjoy want you’re doing but you may need a change in direction Maybe analog will give you that. Looking forward to it. However it’s ok to take a step back once in a while. We’ll still be here when you get back. 

WC,

As requested by some folks here, they want to hear comparisons with the same songs, so you end up hearing those same songs over and over.  It becomes an analytical experience, which at times can be exciting for the improvements/differences, but in the end can produce the burn out. 

The direction you are taking - Magico over the Focal as just one example - is to have a system that is able to expose the flaws in the music that is played, as opposed to having most everything sound decent.  However, this might steer you away from anything but high quality music; hence, the same songs over and over.

Find new music you like on roon, buy it in whatever format you want to listen to.  There is so much good music out there.

Then we got sound quality issues 😂

This hobby is TRULY CRAZY!

Roon radio 

It's not that it isn't important, it's just that playing the same thing on repeat will drive anyone nuts... boredom sets in....

It's nice to have a sincere analog guy near you to get started.  But seek the advice of many analog people here and elsewhere.  Analog can be mellow/tubey, or fast/precise, with a vast spectrum in-between.  A cartridge is THE most critical component, because it is a transducer, a speaker in reverse.  You will find more changes in the sound from different cartridges than tonearm wiring and cables.  The TT/arm is really the supporting cast for the cartridge to perform its best, but the cartridge determines the basic personality of the system, only exceeded in importance by the speaker.  Ask your analog guy about compatibility with the tonearm using criteria of cartridge mass and compliance.  Most important, read about the sonic personalities of each cartridge from users.

You WILL find a vinyl setup that will beat the MSB for clarity, accuracy of imaging and spatiality, but it won't be from euphonic cartridges like Koetsu on a $500K TT/arm.  A simple top $7K package from Rega may do it.  Follow Fremer's columns for cartridge reviews.  The Lyra Atlas SL is an example of a top cartridge with neutral/revealing sound.

I have read the appraisal above for the ATI 6005 amp. I ordered 7 months ago and finally received my 6002 (2 Channel) strictly for music.  I listen only to Rock and Roll, and at fairly loud levels. (Mid 90's spl) The amp feeds A LA-4 Benchmark Line Amp, to a pair of Upgraded Tekton Double impacts. Large listening room. If you have similar tastes, I don't think you'll find a better, stronger, more accurate AMP, Glorious, WOW    Impressive  Robert TN  7 year Warranty too

@chayro 

Thank you for the offer above. I'll definitely take you up on it. 

Also, the tinkering is something that i have indeed done with digital but if I'm being honest here, I'm pretty much done with digital folks...explored it, did just about everything that can possibly be done. Could i change to another DAC? Sure but I'd be changing flavors and not necessarily improving the experience. Maybe analog has something special for me? Who knows... 

I also want to take the time to say this: I'm sick of hearing the same music...this has slowly made me bored because my ears are used to the same songs and my brain is like " ugh not again"... Playing the same music has certainly affected my drive. I realize that this is one of the many reasons why we change out oir equipment so often. We keep listening to the same music and so we change components to change the sound of the same recordings... Yep, i hate to admit it but I'm tired of the same songs... Makes me want to sell my entire system at times and just start buying aftermarket parts for my truck to make it faster...

I just wanted to add something important. One of the greatest pitfalls of analog is the urge to constantly tinker with it. Every time a record doesn’t sound good, you will have the urge to go readjust the vta, vtf, loading and whatever else you can think of. Discipline yourself to resist!  Have your TT set up in your home by the best expert you can find and just play records. All that other stuff will burn you out on analog. Just my opinion, but I’ve seen it before. That’s why some people should not  own analog or tubes. The thought that something may not be right kills their enjoyment of listening. 

Jay- will the TT beat the MSB? All I can say is that others that play at or near your price points say it does, with the right records, which is a big caveat. But it’s something you can only discover for yourself. Don’t forget you also need a record cleaning machine and … Records? To that end, I have collected some extra copies of certain records I liked and when you’re ready, I would like to send you as a starting point in your journey, copies of 2 original Mark Levinson recordings- Jazz at Long Wharf and Elliot Fisk plays Scarlotti. They are analog classics and I would like for you to have them. Oh, don’t forget a stylus timer. 

Awesome addition to the system.  Glad you have local support as you integrate the Kronos into your system.  This TT is capable of competing with your digital, but a few additional variables are now present.  Cartridge choice and setup will ultimately come into play along with actually sourcing and acquiring quality pressings.  The last is possibly one of the more challenging aspects of analogue at this level.  Enjoy and I look forward to continue following your journey.

Here’s my prediction from 12/21/20:

Ron, perhaps.  Let's see....

It actually would not surprise me if 2021 is the year WC brings a solid vinyl setup into his room......now wouldn't that shock everyone here.......

He has already had top-of-the-line digital (not currently), and now his speakers and electronics have caught up.  Analog seems like a natural progression.  Maybe not 2021...2022 probably more likely.  He will say he has no interest at this time, and I believe him...........for now.  

But once the college player begins dominating there and finding it more and more difficult to find challenges at that level, it is inevitable to look to the pros.

Hey WC,

You mentioned "tinkering" for the analog setup, but you've also done some tinkering with the digital side of things - including the Nordost router, power cable setup, etc.   Seems like there's always tinkering that can be done.  

The big advantage of digital though is the convenience and ability to quickly get the music you like to listen to and/or use in the system.  Will an analog setup be that much better that it isn't as bothersome to have the inconvenience with getting music?  

Looking forward to your take on things.

Dave

Jay,

New worlds are open to you with turntables, arms, cartridges. Although daveyf has experience with successive Linn models and follows the Linn contention that the top priority is the TT, then arm, and lastly cartridge, I have had findings at variance with this hierarchy. The analog project doesn’t have to be expensive. I don’t like the rolled off HF euphonic quality of Koetsu cartridges. As a first exercise, you will enjoy the differences in the VPI Avenger TT vs Kronos TT using the same Koetsu. But the AudioTeknica cartridge may be more neutral than the Koetsu, depending on the models of each. You might even prefer the overall sound from the AudioTeknica on the modest VPI TT. The differences from any of the TT/arm/cartridge combos are certainly much greater than from dacs.  Money has little to do with all this. Most older audiophiles got their start with vinyl setups when we didn’t have much money.  If you want clear/neutral cartridges, they can be much cheaper than euphonic pricey cartridges.  Of the other way around.  Listen with an open mind and ear.  

Using the Boulder phono preamp is a great idea, which will better reveal the TT/arm/carridge differences. Later, you can try the cheap Paradox 70 phono stage, which Fremer said seriously challenged his CH Precision.

I don’t know the exact outcome of these experiments, which is for you to discover.

To make these comparisons more meaningful, get recordings which have vinyl and digital versions, otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges.

So yes I had said no Vinyl and I wasn’t planning to but the buyer of my VAC MONOS traded it in to me and so I thought it was a perfect opportunity to jump in. The stars kinda aligned and i also think it will help the channel grow (fingers crossed).

I have the Boulder 2008 phonostage in the room and i will be ordering artesania prestige 3-shelf rack with a turntable shelf on top. The issue is that i was told it will take about a month before i see it so I don’t expect the turntable to be set up in my room until next month. It’s not just that turntable, but i have to drop money on the artesania stand (luckily I’m a dealer) plus the phonostage 2008 from boulder and a cartridge which could run me another 5-10k PLUS the XLR cables to go from the phonostage into the preamp... This is an insane investment...i wasn’t planning for it but it is what it is.

I totally get it, the experiment is costly. However, i needed to bring a turntable that was worth comparing to my MSB select 2. I heard my KRONOS turntable briefly in the room where i was on my last video and it was an eye opener.

My thought process is this: I will spend the money and see how a turntable compares to my DAC. If and ONLY IF the turntable just simply takes me to an entire new level never experienced by me with digital playback then I’d keep the turntable and overlook all the tinkering associated with it. I’d probably even downgrade my digital to something more affordable and put money in the bank.

That said, that is no easy feat for a turntable. Will this turntable earn its keep in my lab? The only way that materializes is if it beats any other source I’ve previously owned to the point that i can't listen to digital anymore. 

Do you all think this turntable has what it takes to best my MSB SELECT 2? 

Nice, glad to see that Jay is looking at another/alternative source component...a Kronos. A turntable ( and a good one at that) will allow the system to show off its best abilities. 

The MSB gear is great for digital, but if you want to go to the next step, vinyl is required...and here's the thing, IF you want to go above that...well then we have tape! If budget allows, all three are great to have in the system, but analog is an ultra expensive proposition...and tape is not far behind. 

I was a bit surprised when you bought a TT. And you didn't wade in at the shallow end of the pool either. What phono pre will you be using?

Not surprised at all. In fact I said one or two years ago in this thread that 2022 would be the year that you would. Since we’re about exactly half way through 2022 I’d say I nailed it perfectly. 
 

Remember for last 3 years WC has been saying any time it got brought up that he was not interested in vinyl, didn’t have the time or patience, etc 

I thought you might be adding a turntable, but I was wondering where in the room you were going to put it to minimize acoustic feedback. I was also thinking that you may have to adjust your methods, as analog does not lend itself towards the rapid A/B comparisons you can do with streaming.  Maybe stream when you want to compare and analog when you just want to sit down and listen.  It’s definitely more of a commitment than digital.  Enjoy. 

Folks,

Let's get this thread on track shall we? 

@kren0006 

Were you surprised i got a turntable?

I know many of you didn't see that coming...

I own a JVC nx7 and use it 3 times a week. I am actually contemplating the new laser JVC nz7....

Jay - I am curious....what projector do you have for your giant screen?   Do you use it very often?  

I had no reason to believe that not to doubt it if someone experience it...I dont have an opinion...

I "rushed" to my keyboard because you rushed in this thread...

And if making a simple experiment , strapping rocks in my AC house conduit, make you believe someone is a "fool", you are a bit swift on judging others...

Change your "alias" which is a bit provocative and express a misleading judgement about all very different people all put in the same despising bag..

I can be arrogant too...

But i prefer to stay friendly...

😁😊

Mahgister, instead of rushing to your keyboard in a need to be heard, how about taking a step back and reading the exact claim made. That the cable used for charging, made a sound difference in the playback when running on batteries only .... then again I see you have rocks strapped to your AC house feed conduit, so I am not sure you are the best person to discuss this with. I don’t think we have a common language to discuss this. I will leave it at that.

Mahgister, instead of rushing to your keyboard in a need to be heard, how about taking a step back and reading the exact claim made. That the cable used for charging, made a sound difference in the playback when running on batteries only .... then again I see you have rocks strapped to your AC house feed conduit, so I am not sure you are the best person to discuss this with.  I don't think we have a common language to discuss this. I will leave it at that.

Sometimes slight misunderstanding over time create wars...

It is on the news...

I think the OP dont claim anything about the battery structure and materials here, he comment about his hearing appreciation with some changes...

By the way if you change your provocative "alias" meaning " all audiophiles are deluded ", you will be less dogmatical in your attitude because name matter...

There exist all kind of audiophiles and putting all them in a despising manner in the same bag is not a glorious enterprise, especially when confusing "measures" with the content of a listening experience....They must be correlated in experiments not one reduced to the other....

For me by the way cables are secondary, acoustic psycho-acoustic matter most... But i am not dogmatic and i know what difference cables can made...

Knowing how to make a battery has nothing to do with listening an audio system nor with acoustic/psycho-acoustic...

I design batteries for a living, at the structural level. I mean how many people can make that claim? The claim is beyond ludicrous.

shannere - Amen.  This is exactly what has been happening.  The points raised are spot on.

Jay - You should list the entities you have a commercial affiliation with (i.e. Stromtank, et al.) in a central location and keep this list updated.

Jay thank you for all you have shared with us here. The critics are critics. You know you don't have to agree or even listen to them. In their world there is something wrong that you do or the way you are going about things. Don't live in their world for your own benefit. Enjoy your world and do it with those that want you to enjoy it with you.  All the individuals I know that have more knowledge and experience and want to chime in and help a situation go about things a whole lot differently.

@deludedaudiophile 

Yes, "Common sense should normally come into play". Please, at your convenience, do the listening tests with the same product for yourself, then come back and report. Nope, I haven't done it, so I have no right to say otherwise.

@deludedaudiophile 

I have found many things in audio that seem unbelievable, until I actually hear it.   That only comes when one can jump from common sense/theory/speculation, etc and enter the world of true experience.  Unfortunately, I can't help there - that decision is up to you.

Dave

Dave,

So, you're saying it's a ridiculous claim, but until you experience it and hear what WC hears, your claim is actually the ridiculous one.

He claimed that changing the cable used during charging of the battery made a difference in the sound when he runs on batteries alone. This is equivalent to not needing to jump out of a tall building without a parachute to know it is going to hurt.

If he or anyone else does not pause and go, that is obviously not possible, therefore, I really need to do better listening tests, then I don't know what to tell you. Common sense should normally come into play.

Thanks to those of you who messaged me privately to stop engaging in this pettiness that seems to be like a virus that comes and goes. 

I will listen to you and stop now  because you have been part of my core and clearly stood next to me since the beginning of time. Thanks!

I have watched the slow deterioration of this thread from the beginning.  There was once a younger audiophile who liked music and sought a journey to improve his system.  Now you are becoming no different from any of the mainstream reviewers becoming a self appointed audio guru with his chorus of disciples.  You are quick to dismiss anyone who disagrees with you and reject science and engineering theory: remember that is what has got us to where we are today .  Instead you are descending into a Harry Pearson wanna be who claims to have the golden ears so much better than ours who can now dictate the truth.  You talk about experience yet it has only a few years since the beginning of your quest when many of us here have been in this hobby for decades.  I guess this should have been expected as this thread is now part of a commercial enterprise searching for viewers and dollars, even as evidenced by your  cheap ploy little teasers.... ooh guess what new thing I have coming stay tuned.  This was once a great thread but no longer worth the daily read..