For those having problems with the power in their room/house and money to spend I know One possible solution. I just heard large MBL speakers at an audio show, driven by Apurna amps getting the power from Stromtank batteries. It sounded great, One of the best sounds of the show.
Stromtank are very expensive but seem to work. |
Viber6, I’ve owned the Acoustic Zen Silver Absolute speaker cable for a few years and it is somewhat difficult to precisely answer your question, since I’ve had so many modifications on my system. Prior owning the Absolute Silver, I owned the Acoustic Zen Double Barrel speaker cables.
The Double Barrel was an improvement over my Audioquest speaker cables (I do not remember the model number...) which had better bass extension/resolution and overall spatial presentation.
When I replaced the Double Barrel with the Silver Absolute (SA), there was an increase in resolution for all frequencies, like lifting a veil from the Double Barrel. The two cables had similar tonal flat balance, but the SA had a ‘thereness’ quality when listening to acoustic jazz or chamber music.
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something is bad wrong with this thread and the timeline |
Did I miss something.
Just an audio thread. Not the saint Bible. Just relax. |
grey9hound,
I think it is quiet here because WC is having the dealer break in one of his Odins. Maybe this is all good because he can just relax and enjoy what he has before making quick changes. Also a good time to consider cheaper but still excellent alternatives.
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@whitecamaross what happened to the Lampizator? Do you like the Oppo 205 better than the Lampi?
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WC is reported being on heavy pills, for having realized the Oppo 205 sounds just as good as the best dacs he tried in his room...
😱
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More likely thrown his back out, moving all that extra-heavy stuff around. |
Maybe his wife said, its me or your system.
She got a dive from the window. 😆
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With all due respect guys, if the Oppo comes even remotely close to the Lampi, there is something seriously wrong. |
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It's entirely possible that the Oppo 205 sounds better to some people than the Lampi.
A huge corporation with all sorts of resources, vs a smaller boutique company.
Doesn't mean that it is better, but it's entirely possible. Just as the reverse is possible. It's a hobby, based on personal tastes. Short of standard objective measurements- it is all subjective.
I like my Ohm Walsh 5000's a lot more than I liked my DynAudio Contour 60's... someone else might feel the exact opposite. |
The day and time i posted that , the thread kept showing the last post was page 120 or 121 and the dates and posts were from 2016.... ?? |
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dep14...as I am killing a bit of time...
The Countour 60 costs about 50% more than the Walsh 5000, whereas the Lampi Pacific costs 13X that of the Oppo, heck the balanced upgrade on the Lampi costs more than the Oppo...but WC will be polite and praise the Oppo's performance until asked outright about the differences and then he will advise to keep the Oppo and a rope when one goes boating
ok back to work
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@gtaphile
So if it’s more expensive, it has to sound better to everyone?
Is there a multiple where that happens for sure?
Ah, the speaker wire and interconnect companies love these thoughts...
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Sound quality is mostly related to creative thinking behind the design. Expensive things are related to parts quality and count, weight, which don't necessarily correlate with sound quality. WC has discovered this with a few pieces. On the 1st page of this thread, he said that the Emotiva 250 sounds as good as amps costing 10x as much.
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On the 1st page of this thread, he said that the Emotiva 250 sounds as good as amps costing 10x as much. Yes, in his system at that time. But let's be honest, this was when he was very clearly a non-believer of cable differences. He has come a long way with cables, the magic of tubes at the front end, power refinements, room setup, etc. I always make note of the reviewer's system, typically at the end of the review, before I go back to the start to read all the details. This allows me to put what I am reading in context with my own experience with any of those products, if in fact I have any. And sadly he did not list his system at the time of the start of this thread. So there was no reference point. If your system is dimensionally flat, comparing components with such strengths, will be marginal at best. And evaluating bass performance requires a very large room, not a 12x18x8 room. There will be many bass nodes here, and sadly, room correction between the line stage and amp will likely destroy so much of the 3D magic that took years to attain. A system loaded with top-performing components, many which don't work well together for a multitude of reasons, and mediocre cabling will result in a midfi system at best. It is a sad reality. I heard an exact example of this in a local audiophile's home a couple months ago and the result was horrible. I heard many of those products in the past in systems with stunning performance. With WC's system now, I give his comments far more weight when he does comparisons than when he did just a year ago and before. |
jafox Excellent post. I concur with everything written. Cabling is the final, often forgotten frontier. Happy Listening! |
I definitely agree that what we know now is possibly different than what we knew in the past, most likely due to learning and experiences. I think WC has done a great job of putting things into context and perspective, based upon previous point-in-time observations and current knowledge.
Dave
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Agreed to the above as well.
Also, impressive patience waiting the 210 hours for Vidar machine break-in.
Really looking forward to updated observations on the Odins and any differences that result. Hopefully WCSS has been taking an overdue vacation in the interim..... |
jafox - All excellent points.
dep14 - Swapping any single component in a system/room combination that has been optimized to an extent that WC has (acoustic absorption /diffusion excluded) will bare the differences between the two products. In the case of Oppo versus the Lampi if the Lampi did not clearly best the Oppo in all areas one should be looking for the malfunction in the Lampi. Best should not be confused with synergy. The Lampi will do everything better BUT at the same time it may not take the system forward altogether. That is the synergy that we listen for when we try to move our systems forward.
WC communicates this in spades.
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WCSS,
It's been a few days since we have heard from you.....Let us know you are ok. Thanks. Big D
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WC and "crew", Last night I attended an open house at Quintessence Audio (Morton Grove, IL) that was advertised as a release party for the new dCS Bartok DAC and Wilson Sasha DAW speakers (in main room these were partnered with Audio Research Ref 10 Pre-amp, Audio Research Ref 160M, Nordost Odin: est. system cost $175K). The event was well attended by a wide range of enthusiasts that appeared to span from budget home systems owners ($5-$25K) systems through absolute reference owners ($200-$500K+). The presentation by Wilson and dCS was informative and interesting and the music an outstanding variety to clearly reveal the magic of the systems. (Bach Trios with Mandolin, Bass and Cello; Rene Fleming singing a beautiful Leider, Mickey Hart with Japanese Kodo drummers (yes the 160M needles moved on this!), Aretha Franklin and finally some crooner from the 60's. The sound was absolutely sublime! The bonus was that Nordost's Sales rep was on hand in a second room doing demonstrations. Following are some take-aways: Nordost demonstrations I witnessed (system was Wilson Sabrina, SimAudio 850P, SimAudio 400M, dCS Rossini and external clock, Nordost Valhalla 2 interconnects and speaker cable + assortment of cones, Power Cords, etc. (estimated overall system cost: $100K)): - interconnect between dCS external clock and DAC (this is only clock signal, no data). stock, Heimdahl 2, Valhalla 2
- USB between notebook and DAC (all data, but data completely reclocked within DAC. stock, Heimdahl 2, Valhalla 2
- Power cord of dCS external clock. stock, Red Dawn (Nordost's top of their "entry level Leif series" power cord. around $400 for 2M)
Firstly, this "budget system" sounded great even at 2/3 cost of the main system. Differences between all of the trials were clear to all even though only one cable was changed at a time; novice and high end system customers alike. Whether differences were of value compared to cost was not the point. In every case, the more expensive alternative was clearly and audibly better and these differences were not subtle. Note that I am making no value judgement as to whether the incremental cost is worth the money, nor that other competing brands might not offer a better or different value... only that in every case; clarity, dynamics, background noise floor, inner harmonics of individual instruments, soundstage, etc. was clearly and obviously better than the less expensive alternative. Important was that of all the cables, interconnects, etc. in the system that one might believe would be most impact sound, these demonstrations were of the exact opposite. One might believe that the fantastic dCS Rossini plus master clock ($35,000 combo) would be among the most immune converters from jitter, power noise and whatever other critters somehow creep into a system and that the power cord to the external clock should be at most subtly impacted by a $400 PC. The gentleman beside me (who had never spent $100 or more on any cable exclaimed "the better the equipment, the more obvious the differences between cables" which many of us have discovered to be true. I had opportunity to speak privately with Mike Marko of Nordost regarding the journey WC has been on and his recent entry in Nordost's premium reference line. He agreed that it is of paramount importance that when you are working with this level of equipment, it is really important to treat the system as a whole, not as a collection of individual components. Everything affects everything else... system synergy. For this reason, it is of paramount importance that WC work with a Nordost retailer that will set him up with a complete loom at least to reasonably evaluate the Nordost product. It is probable that such a product will reveal weaknesses in other products that were previously masked and it could be easy to attribute those weeknesses to the cable that has merely exposed them. I have written before of the sensitivity of the AR Ref 10 to power cable. You have not even come close to hearing how incredible this preamplifier is unless it partnered with a special power cord. I have now heard this with both Valhalla 2 and Odin. It is just magical. Because of the tubes, I would extend this to experimentation with vibration absorption, supression, etc. whether that be sort cones, still points, high end shelving (i.e. Critical Mass), etc. I expect this is equally true with the Lampi although I have never had the opportunity to audition. It is Mike's experience that often when clients install the Odin speaker cable that speaker positions must often be changed. What may have been optimized before, frequently has a different optimal position with Odin. WC noted that soundstage was diminished and bass slam was lost with the new speaker cables. With these cables, this absolutely should not be the case. The Kodo drums in the Wilson demonstration were as real sounding as I have ever heard in a reproduction, but of course still fall short of experiencing them live. Last night, they were as close to live as I have ever heard. This is why highly trained retailers normally travel to their clients to facilitate and accelerate the process of integrating these seriously high end products. Any of us can plug in a new set of cables, but few of us have the benefits of training, optimization, speaker alignment that a dedicated, high end retailer is expected to invest in. I hope sharing my fun experience last night might be appreciated by all and maybe be at least a bit informative. |
I believe it is interesting that 25k is classified as the high end of a
“budget” system. The classification of high end being more than the cost of many homes at 200k to 500k makes that segment unavailable to all but the very rich.
Where is the person of average means to get high quality audio? It is my suggestion that a really great system can be had for 5-10k. Now that means some used equipment, but that is good with me.
About half my system was purchased used.
It is my firm belief that people of means can chase the last 1%, but the marginal cost versus marginal gain as you pass into the upper reaches of cost is minuscule.
I have heard the Doors music on very high end systems, quite excellent 20-25k systems and from the experience of sitting on stage with them playing live in Germany. It was much different than all their recorded music, no matter how fabulous the equipment was. And I still love listening to them now.
Point being, all that money spent just gives one very nice view of their music that is most pleasurable, but cannot replicate the original.
I am glad people have an extra 175-475k to spend, but those budgets marginalize opinions and equipment to a very few. My economist wife concurs about marginal cost, marginal gain.
I love watching WCSS’s journey, but it is far more meaningful when items like the OPPO shine through as that is more an Everyman piece of gear. And I appreciate so much his earlier review of many amps that fall into the realm of the “budget” systems in the 20-25k range!
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@psnyder149
Thanks for your detailed writeup of your night of fun. I've heard many of the pieces you mentioned and agree with many of your observations. Would really enjoy hearing the Nordost presentation; I'm hoping to someday. I can tell you from just working with Blue Heaven and Heimdall 2 Power Cords, the difference is easy to hear. I've heard Valhalla 2 many times and Odin 2 a few, but never heard them compared to any of the other Nordost product. I hope to do that someday as well. Your observations on Dealers bringing significant system setup and optimization skills is why we have them; I know my Dealer, Mike Rose of Excel Audio brings significant experience and expertise to the table. I'd bet WC could further benefit from that type of input as well. |
@gtaphile
Why should the Lampi best the Oppo? Besides cost? Honestly wondering. I'm not saying it doesn't, but it's not a given.
They look great, they are built by hand. I've heard the Amber and the Big 7, both are good (and obviously not the top end). Small company built by hand is very cool, I love smaller companies.
The Oppo in particular is interesting as it’s from a huge company, with massive resources and all objective tests show excellent measurements in every regard. Furthermore, those that have listened to them by in large praise them.
Now I don’t have a 205, I had one from the last run, but when someone on ebay was willing to pay me damn near 2.5 times what it cost... I sold it.
Just because it a product is multiple times more expensive, doesn't mean it performs better/lasts longer etc.
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lhasaguy,
Totally agree, especially how live music fundamentally differs from all hifi. Also, you can buy high value products like Mytek, Benchmark, Emotiva, Plinius, Oppo, etc., even at retail prices, as WC and others have found.
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Good morning gentlemen,
I’ve been missing in action due to work but I’ve been playing with equipment a few nights and specifically with the oppo 205 and lampizator. Tons of A/B comparisons between these have led to confusion. On certain nights I feel as if the lampizator distances itself and other nights like last night, it was a race where I couldn’t choose a winner. I also used BOTH components directly as preamps and as sources through the ref10. I cued the same songs through roon on both the oppo and lampizator and connected both of them on 2 different inputs on the ref10 and matching volumes perfectly on both sources so that when I switched inputs on the ref 10, the volume was the same on both. I proceeded to push play on both players and the same song at the very same exact second and went between input 1 and input 2 constantly and I couldn’t really hear a difference. I tried plenty of songs and the results were the same.
when I had the platinum 7 speaker cables, I picked up a difference when doing the experiment above. I heard the lampizator sounding sharper and the oppo just a tad less focused. The Odin speaker cables make both sources sound pretty much the same. Not sure if it is because they haven’t broken in yet. I still have to take these cables to my dealer but it’s hard for me to let go of this experiment and watch the system grow before my eyes as the cables break in.
Again, the experiment is indeed confusing to me. I clearly remember the lampizator sounding better when I was using platinum 7 speaker cables in the system. It was more liquid, more pure, more articulated but this doesn’t mean it doesn’t sound good right now. It was just easier for me to hear it shine better when comparing it to the ref10.
Today I will be introducing Shunyata alpha NR powecords on the amps and the ref10.
I’m somewhat pissed off that I took down the sound I was getting through the Odin 1 and lampizator with platinum 7 speaker cables. It was INCREDIBLE and possibly the best I’ve heard here.
I am getting the feeling that the speaker cables right now are the bottleneck because they are trapping the sound and turning it into whatever they want. I probably should have my dealer break them in but that is a long 10 day affair for me that is painful to endure. I’m the type that just wants to keep sitting and listening and writing down my thoughts. It is part of the journey of watching the system go up another level little by little.
That said, the oppo 205 with the Odin 1 pc and platinum 8 xlr cables is a sleeping giant that can creep up on you and begin to make you question things. It’s best that you all with expensive rigs don’t attempt to do this. I’m telling you it is no slouch and no I’m not saying that right now it is beating any source I own because I need to sort out my speaker cable issue but even when I had the platinum 7 sspeaker cables I heard great things through the oppo. Crazy but yes I won’t bs anyone here. One more thing, please remember that I’m using a 11,000 dollar powercord and 6,000 dollar xlr cables on it. Don’t think a naked oppo 205 with stock chords can come close to the big dacs.
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dep14.
In stead of explaining why the Lampi will sound better in a competent system (synergy aside) I'll explain why the Oppo could not. It is competing in a crowded category with price restrictions that limit what the manufacturer can do from model to model. They have to build from known modules and make incremental improvements versus being in a category where there are very small price restrictions. Actually the top end category usually build the product and then put a price on it.
Oppo make fine products - I have two of their products in my home theatre. The were category leaders but its a different category altogether.
Can a Project xtension turntable kit sound as good as a Kronos pro it - not possible unless the Kronos is broken.
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@gtaphile
And I could make the argument that Oppo could buy in such larger quantities, and build in larger quantities, and have a team of engineers with resources design, test, and build it much faster and take advantage of... wait for it... economies of scale. Objectively, it also happens to measure tremendously well. Which, while I don't always think measurements tell the whole story - is really the only way to compare a product to another on a level playing field.
But that takes away the question as to why the Lampi MUST sound better.
It definitely looks great, was built with care, uses nice parts and I'm sure it sounds great.
But better... who really knows. All in the subjective world of the listener.
Subjectively, same system, same room, same DB level etc... sure you can test with your ears but everyone hears things differently and likes a different sound.
I have no idea which I would like better so it's pretty moot. Part of me now wishes I kept my 205 instead of flipping it when I got it so I could listen to it.
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Listening to the oppo vs lampizator again right now and again there’s pretty much zero difference when going through the ref10. I still suspect my issue are the speaker cables not pushing the sound completely to the speakers.
Odin cables are headed back to the dealer today to be burnt in. I will be bringing home a pair of Shunyata alpha NR speaker cables. Let’s wait for the shock of a lifetime... wait for it ... wait for it... |
@psnyder149
So much to learn by picking the brains of manufactures and retailers at properly set-up demos. Thanks for taking the time to share your experience.
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WC, What IC's are you using from Ref 10 to the amps? This is CRITICAL! |
WCMSS, if you decided to move away from Odins at some point, you may want to put the new AQ series cables into serious consideration. The power cables have already been discussed and their new speaker cables use some of that technology.
I have been talking to a lot of dealers and AQ directly about how much improvement the new cables make and even their top Thunderbird copper cable bests their older top of line silver at 4x the cost. If you biwire they bring some of their new power cable technology into their seaparate bass cable.
Supposedly they have minimized a lot of the noise and bring out the sound more clearly without effecting tonality. But haven’t heard these myself yet. |
Platinum 8 interconnects throughout. I also used the lampizator and oppo as preamps and into the amps. Same results.
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WCSS,
Are the Wireworld Platinium 7 Speaker Cables gone? Can you get them back somehow?
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Well,
being angry, disappointed and not happy, I went on a rampage and bought the following:
Shunyata Denali 2000t
2 pairs of shunyata alpha xlr
3 shunyata alpha powercords
Shunyata Denali 6000t
shunyata alpha xlr speaker cables.
I have connected the speaker cables first since the Odin are now being broken by the dealer. I also connected the ref 10 with the new xlr and the oppo to the ref10 with new xlr as well.
Impressions to come later.
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Good luck with the Shunyata stuff. Don't know until you try.
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WC,
I urged techno_dude a while back to try the Shunyata Denali 6000. At home, my Denali is a big improvement, much more than any Shunyata power cord. The Denali creates better focus and detail across the freq spectrum. Images are thinner, which is characteristic of focused clarity, as I mentioned in my analogy of the pretty woman in a delicate dress. But there are no HF spikes or any suggestion of imbalances. Good move for you--you will be happy. |
Denali 6000t: outstanding. Big huge sound out of my block audios. Smooth, clean, and far better bass. Blown away by the Denali 6000t. Far more detail and black backgrounds. It’s a spectacular component.
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3 hours into the listening sesssion and right now I could dump the lampizator and ref10 and leave the oppo 205, Odin 1powercord as my preamp. Yes, it’s incredibly better after plugging it into the Denali.
I seriously hope that the Odin 1 speaker cables perform when I pick them up in 9 days. If they come here and don’t blow away these Shunyata alpha speaker cables then I will be selling them as well.
So for all you know, I could be selling the lampizator, ref10 and Odin speaker cables in 2 weeks. One thing is for sure, the Denali 6000t, oppo 205 and Odin 1 powercord aren’t going anywhere. |
Unplugged the aftermarket powercord I had on the ref10 (can’t mention brand) and then I plugged in yet another Shunyata alpha nr pc into the ref10 and it totally woke up the ref10. The highs sound sharper with more bite and less “warmish or laid back”. Outstanding synergy is entering the system as I add cable by cable. The Odin 1 pc has exited the system for the next few days. I still have 3 more alpha PCs in their boxes. Plan is to add one to the oppo tomorrow and listen and then the final 2 will go in the block audios.
Towards the end I will plug the Monos into the wall with the alpha cables and then I’ll go back and plug them into the Denali and compare to see if these monsters prefer the Denali over dedicated 20a outlets.
Then the last thing I will do is bring the Odin pc and speaker cables into the system at once and see what they do to the full Shunyata presentation.
will a full Shunyata alpha set up best the Odin 1 pc and Odin 1 speaker cables when they enter the system ? We shall see. |
WC, would you not expect two "perfect" digital playback systems to sound exactly the same? Perfect meaning they are neither adding to or subtracting from (editorializing) the native sound. |
Jetter, but both "digiral" playback systems have entirely different analog output stage and power supply implementations. |
Thanks jafox, I see your point. What I meant to say was that there is a sound that has been recorded, and maybe both units are replaying that sound exactly as it was recorded, so the playback is identical by necessity. |
Possible jetter. Right now I am going by what I am hearing. |
