More Bass

My speakers are similar to yours in specs anyway and since I'm a bass lover and rarely use my sub, I just use the tone controls on my pre-amp and get all the bass I want and can handle. Problem solved.

I personally don't believe in speaker "break-in" and think anything will change sound wise but know a lot of people do.

When I don’t get enough bass, I will look on how much power the speakers needed, even cabling , room and speakers placement.

Norton some speakers do change after break in some don’t.

From Coda:

"There should be no brake in for the amp or the speakers.  With the efficiency and impedance of the speakers there should be enough power with the V1.  We have had Whisper, Focus, and Signature on site. I found that the Sigs were more balanced.  They had good bass but not overpowering.  Whispers were also balanced.  The Focus on the other hand had a more enhanced bass.  I think it is expectation and the speaker.  Perhaps the Focus?"

I really don't want the hassle, expense and the size by moving up to the Focus... UGH!

@navyachts

thanks Eric, for some reason when I click on the link you provide (as with some other links here) I don’t get redirected.  Any tips?

Same thing with links started happening to me about a month or two ago.  The way I can make links work now is to right click on the link, and select "open link in new tab".

Sadly I can't find any data on the impedance curve of the original model.  If it follows the same pattern however the issue will be straightforward.

@navyachts As mentioned, I owned both the Focus SE and Aeris. I found that smaller "full range speakers" and subs were the way to go for my room. With subs, you have better dedicated control of the bass through separate amps and are less limited to positioning the full-range speakers for bass balance. Also with the Focus, while the extra midrange is nice, the increase in the size of the drivers also increases the height of the Legacy Air Motion Transformers, which can be detrimental in sound quality for some if the tweeters are too high for their ears.

I don’t want to detract people from getting a Focus SE as it is a wonderful speaker and there are other benefits in addition to stronger bass, such as a richer midrange. But if you are already happy with the performance of the Signature SE aside from bass performance, upgrading to the Focus SE is not necessarily the answer. In my room, even with the Focus SE and Aeris, I preferred having subs due to the improved control, more even distribution of bass, and the benefits across the frequency spectrum I mentioned in an earlier post.

@erik_squires - "If it follows the same pattern however the issue will be straightforward" and that problem being?

@blisshifi - Thanks, I like your train of thought! I understand though that it's a crazy, pain in the butt deal to setting subwoofers up. Any tips or tricks? Also, in a subwoofer thread I recently started, @mike_in_nc states this:

" Not to be pedantic, but you do know? Subs often are used to help fill bass nulls, and the absolute worst placement for that is adjacent to the main speakers"

But, this is the only location I have to put the subs. Any thoughts?

Two thoughts in agreement with @erik_squires and one about positioning:

1. If you don’t have an amp that can handle a low-impedance load, try one
2. Get some measurement capability, so you and others have a better idea of what’s going on
3. My thought about positioning subs is that if (1) is not the answer and you are dealing with room nulls, you will be frustrated perpetually by putting subs right next to the main speakers -- at least, if your goal is flat, extended bass. Unfortunately, there is no way around physics.

and that problem being?

Wrote about it above. The speaker’s impedance < 100 Hz is far too low for a 4 Ohm speaker. If indeed this is a 2 Ohm speaker below 100 Hz it will require an abnormally stiff amp to sound good.

If you can’t find a review, call Legacy and see if they’ll tel you what the minimum impedance of the speaker was. Last option is to buy a DATS and measure the impedance yourself:  Alternatively, if you feel a little DIY get Room EQ Wizard and use the impedance measurement feature.

@navyachts I'd spend a lot more time setting those speakers up. With a room that wide you should be able to get them at least eight feet apart and one foot away from the wall is another speaker killer unless you have a brand designed to be against the wall. Wifey might object but you'll have to bite the bullet if you want to know what they are capable of.

OK, this is really starting to get depressing, beaten by a room.

Maybe @jeffseight has the best solution for me: "Is the trial period over?"

I'll still need some speakers though...

That's always an option but you can make it work and it does take work. Is the view interruption too much? Is the wife unwilling to budge or are you unwilling to push? You've put money into it so you have to decide how "right" you want it. Some good stand mounts might be a better option but spend at least as much or more if you go that direction. Then, however you might end up with subs to get there bass wise. I think stand mounts can't push enough air for a room your size. Speaker positioning and related seating position is foremost to see what you have before you jump the shark.

@erik_squires - Hi Erik, so I asked this directly of Legacy:

What is the minimum impedance of the Signature speaker, is it 2 ohms below 100 Hz?

Their response:  "The signature line can go as low as 3.5 ohms"

So, pardon my ignorance, but what does all this mean? Thanks!

"

Now look at the specification for your amplifier.

Looks promising..

@steakster - @mike_in_nc 

OK, how about 2 subs on the opposite wall 20' away facing the back of the listening position? 

>> OK, how about 2 subs on the opposite wall 20’ away facing the back of the listening position? <<

More likely to help than placement right by the speakers. You’ll never really know unless you measure. We all think we have golden ears, but I for one find measurements more reliable than my ears, in that they don’t change from day to day. But I admit, I fine tune everything by ear -- after getting the basic setup right by measuring.

@erik_squires - Hi Erik, so I asked this directly of Legacy:

What is the minimum impedance of the Signature speaker, is it 2 ohms below 100 Hz?

Their response: "The signature line can go as low as 3.5 ohms"

So, pardon my ignorance, but what does all this mean? Thanks!

Welp, there’s a number of published measurements showing this to be optimistic. As I noted elsehwere, I’ve found a couple of different models shown to be around 2 Ohms for most of the bass. This includes the SE and 20/20. Perhaps I’m misinterpreting the statement or the charts?

For any speaker that goes down this low it means that with many amplifiers the bass output will often be depressed relative to the rest of the range. See the separate thread on the KEF Reference 1 standmount which has exactly this issue.

The solution is a high-current amplifier of which there are many at various price points, but your average integrated amplifier probably wont’ cut it. For sure, almost no tube amp will work here.

At 2 Ohms, an amplifier has to produce 2x the current (Amps) as at 4 Ohms, and 4x the current needed at 8 Ohms.

If I were to guess I would say you are clipping your amplifier. 4 Ohm speakers will surprise you with how much power you need to get the bass to rumble...

I would have thought with the 7" woofers and a rated frequency response of 22-30K Hz, there would have been a bit more bass

Mr. Yachts,

You mention that you thought there should be a bit more bass, does this mean that the bass is non-existent or just not as loud as you expected it to be?  What are you trying to achieve, the more balanced bass that happens with classical and acoustic jazz or the chest thumping bass that you get with loud rock?

(although there is a couple of tunes I have played where there is some bass that is really deep and sounds all garbled,

I find this to be a troubling statement. The fact that you have played some songs that reproduced low bass, points a finger at the source material. Not all recordings were recorded well, especially pop/rock recorded prior to 1975 and the better your system the more this becomes apparent, but the fact that it sounded garbled would indicate that there is some kind of malfunction. There are a few things that would explain non-existent bass such as a room nulls, bad source material or out of phase wiring, but not the garbled sound. Is it possible one or more of the 10” drivers is not functioning properly? If you place your finger tips on the cone of each driver and push do they move easily? If there is a scraping sound or the driver does not move at all that would indicate a blown speaker. There also might possibly be a failing component in the crossover.

We have had Whisper, Focus, and Signature on site. I found that the Sigs were more balanced. They had good bass but not overpowering.

This statement leads me to believe that your amp is not part of the problem, but I don’t know if you mentioned to them the garbled tunes?

This tune “Flight of the Cosmic Hippo” by Bela Flack has some very low bass. If you can stream it or find a copy to play, please report back on how it sounded.

Also, the speakers could have accidentally been wired out of phase inside the cabinet by the manufacturer.

Welp, there’s a number of published measurements showing this to be optimistic. As I noted elsehwere, I’ve found a couple of different models shown to be around 2 Ohms for most of the bass. This includes the SE and 20/20. Perhaps I’m misinterpreting the statement or the charts?

@erik_squires You have got the measurements for the wrong speaker. You keep bringing up the Focus series. He has the Signature SE. The Signature and Focus are not the same speaker. I don't believe I have ever seen impedance measurements of the Signatures.

Let them break in hundred hours, great way to get great speakers. 
 

most haven’t a clue. 
first 30-50 hours, if don’t sound good, they sell em.

pAtience.  Break in, placement, 

took me weeks to get the bass I knew was there,   Many nights, moving, toeing, close, far from wall, one speaker in corner, which when sitting has more sound than other on left, which is next to open hallway' stairs, rooms,

mess w them, I would move a couple inches at a time, then sit, listen, 

took me a whe o get it just right, like the baby bears porridge 

recordings also matter, 

great speakers, enjoy!

maybe a small 12” sub, 

first I would tweak and listen.

my speakers took a solid 300 hrs to loosen and open up. 

@navyachts picture speaks a thousand words. is there a way you can add a virtual system with pictures of room and current set up?

That will help with proper recommendations with your current and future setup. 

@mike_in_nc - so how do I go about doing this "Measuring" I once downloaded some room correction software and purchased a microphone off Amazon. I found the whole process beyond me and sent the microphone back. I would need help with this, for sure!

@audiorusty - my apologies, there are two 10" woofer, it's the mid-range that is 7"      There is bass and I'm not looking chest thumping stuff, it just doesn't hit as hard as I would expect. Maybe it's the sealed box that I'm not use to? I will heed some of your other advice and get back to you. Thank you. 

@arcticdeth +1

@audphile1 - yes, working on that. I'm just trying to finish up a major remodel which has led me to tear my rotator cuff, so it hurts to blink at the moment. Going to take a bunch of pain pills and maybe over the weekend, I will try to get that done. 

Two things that strike me about this thread.  One, Legacy speakers are never light on bass.  Two, they also never sound bright (with ample electronics as you seem to have).  I have owned Legacy speakers for 25 years - exclusively.  I've had OG Classics, OG Focus, Silverscreen II, Silverscreen HD (currently own) and Focus SEs (currently own).  When I had crappy electronics back in the late 90s, the Classics could definitely sound a bit harsh.  But they produced very solid bass even with said crappy gear.  I think my amp back then was an Acurus A125X5.  It was cheap but still allowed the Classics to thump pretty hard.  My room was not as big as yours since I rented back then.  But it was open into the dining room and kitchen, so it wasn't too far off.  There was also a slider off to the right going out to a balcony.  And it's coverings were not sound absorbing.  The ceilings were also only 8'.  These probably explain most of that harshness.  How is the room if you walk around and clap? (I recommend doing this when your wife is running an errand :D).  I'm guessing it will echo like crazy...

Room layout and speaker positioning is key and I see that several have mentioned that.  You don't even have to go wild with placement - since I know you are not able to.  A few inches could make a drastic difference.  And don't over-do toe-in.  That is a common mistake.  Mine fire nearly straight out into my room.  Maybe 2 to 4 degrees at the listening position which is 9' away.

Since sound panels or diffusers aren't an option for you, there may be little you can do to tame the room's harshness.  But again, speaker positioning can help to a degree.

@audiom3 I agree with your statement about the equipment, I really have my homework cut out for me with this room, just not sure what I can do about it.

>> how do I go about doing this "Measuring" <<

Well, either you do the work learning to use OmniMic or REW or something similar, or you don’t. There are no special tricks; it just takes doing it a few, or a few dozen, times. There’s quite a bit online, especially for REW. Besides the mic and software, you need a standard mic stand (about $35 last I looked).

Measurement is cheaper than most audio things (especially exotic cables) and has a better payback than many audio things, but it has a little DIY in it and is not something one can just buy and enjoy. It’s not for everyone. But I think you’re probably up for it.

If you have a Windows laptop available, I’d recommend OmniMic2, which I found easier to set up and learn than REW. But thousands of audiophiles use REW every day.

@mike_in_nc OK, thanks, I'll try and figure it out.

Another fun tool is a simple App on your phone.  Spectroid is a frequency measurement tool.  Take your phone and sit in your listening position.  You will see the bass response in relation to other frequencies.  make sure the recording is one that has low frequencies.  Most don't have much below 35 Hz but some recordings go to 25Hz.  Make sure the bass is as loud as other frequencies, kinda close, not louder.  During my placement wars, there were times the bass completely cancelled out in my listening position!  Now I have beautiful, detailed bass. 

I have traps.  Quite a few, but not enough bass traps.  There are rectangular and cylindrical(best}f, corner triangle, also good.  you can also add traps with paintings or pictures, at a cost. 

I recalled, one and half year ago, I came across a pair of used Legacy Focus SE for a increadibly affordable price including shipping and was tempted. Fortunately I was able to audition first and decide not to pursue because its so-so bass performance.  Although youtube recordings was heavily criticized but, if you take brief listening to it, it immediately becomes apparent that their bass was not as deep, weighty and nimble as you might expect from a set of gigantic beefy speakers.

Take a look at Quolio IQ. It is might be your end game yet very afforable speakers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysk3Sq65mZA&t=1837s

@audphile1 - is there any way you can stop the notification of this message to my email? I have received it 10 times! I'm working on pictures!!

@navyachts picture speaks a thousand words. is there a way you can add a virtual system with pictures of room and current set up?

That will help with proper recommendations with your current and future setup. 

@lanx0003 - I think open baffle speaker need to be way out from the back wall.      I had to laugh; my room looks 10 times better acoustically than the one in the video

@lanx0003 wrote: "I recalled, one and half year ago, I came across a pair of used Legacy Focus SE for a increadibly affordable price including shipping and was tempted. Fortunately I was able to audition first and decide not to pursue because its so-so bass performance.  Although youtube recordings was heavily criticized but, if you take brief listening to it, it immediately becomes apparent that their bass was not as deep, weighty and nimble as you might expect from a set of gigantic beefy speakers."

You could not be further from the truth.  One day I'll upload a video/sound clip of my Focus SEs bowing/rattling the F out of my back windows of my 16x28 room.  We're talking peaks @ 30Hz range stuff, not boomy, "boom boom" car bass.  Problem with uploading to YT is not just the compression but most won't be able to play back that deep bass anyway unless they have a decent sub.

It just takes a little effort like with anything else.  You can't expect to slap them down into any room, hit play and have high expectations of being blown away with deep bass.  That is beyond silly and unrealistic.

@daledeee1 Walk around the room.  Does bass get better, worse or doesn't matter.  A continuous tone is helpful.  I  have 20 and 30 hz only.  Also, it will take a few days, many people play new speakers continuously for a few days.

stays the same 

@audiom3 ya, @lanx0003  comments seem a little skewed

@navyachts I am willing to bet his 'audition' was a YouTube video 🤣

I have the Sig SEs. the amp matters. sounded weak with the emotiva. sounded Very Good with the Parasound Halo. have the Pass Labs 250.8 now and I'm done. i get strong accurate base in my small untreated house. XP-12 is my pre.

@jr19 - cool, could you share a little bit about your speaker placement?

@audiom3 Problem with uploading to YT is not just the compression but most won’t be able to play back that deep bass anyway unless they have a decent sub.

Really? Take a serious listening to the Quolio IQ YT demo. This time use your headphone. Good one. The recording is truely top notch AND Quolio’s room does not have sub there.

One day I’ll upload a video/sound clip of my Focus SEs bowing/rattling the F out of my back windows of my 16x28 room.

Prove it. Don’t just talk about it.  I really challenge you to do better than Quolio's room.

OP: I think open baffle speaker need to be way out from the back wall. I had to laugh; my room looks 10 times better acoustically than the one in the video

If your room/speakers could produce that kind of decent sound reproduction as I hear from the Quolio’s room, you should not be here whining about it.

my speakers are 17" from back wall, 23" from side wall, about 7' apart. toed in about 4* ish. 

@jr19 - thanks

@lanx0003 - I was trying to be funny, chill out bro

@lanx0003 wrote: "Prove it. Don’t just talk about it.  I really challenge you to do better than Quolio's room."

How old are you?  I haven't talked like that since I was about 12.  And I never disputed the quality of their audio/video.  They're trying to sell speakers from it.  Move on and quit trolling the OP's thread.

navyachts,

I own a Coda No.8 V1, and based on my experience with it, I suspect it is the cause of your bass problem.  I have used the Coda amp with 2 different speakers, KEF Reference 1 and Yamaha NS-5000, and have found much stronger bass with other amplifiers (Parasound JC-1 and Yamaha M-5000).  

I’m confused as to whether you’re still limited to 12” subs?  If not, a pair of 13” SVS SB1000 Pro subs will definitely up your bass performance and include integration software all for $1100 with a 45-day, risk-free trial including shipping both ways.  Definitely worth a try I’d think. 

@80s_forever - now that is interesting. I think you are the second person in this thread to mention something like this. I possibly have a chance to change the speakers, changing out the amp might be a little more difficult at this point. Thanks

@daledeee1 Walk around the room.  Does bass get better, worse or doesn't matter.  A continuous tone is helpful.

Continuous the way I hear it.

@audphile1 OK, I have some picture, how the heck do I post them here? It's asking for a URL

@wturkey - "rear firing tweeters" huh?

@soix - The fireplace is 12" off the floor so I don’t want to cover it if the subs are on the inside of the mains. There is room to the to the right of the right speaker for a bigger sub but on the left side it’s going to get all muddled up in the drapes. Some say the subs shouldn’t be on the same wall as the mains, so I’m confused.

Even more confusing is trying to get some pictures loaded here!