Monster Regret!!

suggest you post in the PS Audio website community....someone will have an answer

You should try it both ways and use what sounds the best.

I bought into all the Monster cable hype. I even went as far as purchasing their Monster Power AVS 2000 voltage stabilizer and HTS 5000 reference power center.

Why is it hype? Is there something wrong with the product? It maintains 120 VAC has surge protection, and a singles PS cable is taking care of ground loop issues, with multi outlets that are protected....

I'm sure a lot of  monster cables are just fine.. Speaker IC.. You might want to look around a bit..

I'm all for what sounds better, but cost the least.. MC said it, try it both ways, but "just because", someone else said PS  make everything better (sound) you may be in for a surprised... it should sound the same.
If they are both doing their jobs.. 

If you were using products with crappy power supplies, (not yours),
PS or even the lowly monster product, would show a marked improvement, bottom to top... That has been my experience over and over and over...

I'm a safety first, protect second, THEN, sound..
A lot of folks will disagree, but their not retired mechanics either...

EX: Mac.... Crappy little PC on any of their old Valve amps, if you replace it with anything other than what they use.. It's a waste of money.

Why, excellent Power supply design...

I wish you well, enjoy the learning curve..Spendy, though.

Regards

Your mileage may vary, though I was using a power conditioner, I decided to purchase a good power strip, just surge protection. That’s it. - hospital grade. 
I plugged my amp straight into the wall. The rest into the strip. 
I immediately noticed a much more open airy sound. 
I live in the land of dirty current of the 5 boroughs of nyc. Obviously components, synergy, and location determines if a Power conditioner is necessary. 
Shindo makes a nice power conditioner for under 300 usd. If I had to try another one. That would be my choice 

best luck 

J

Simple age-old advice from @millercarbon.

I’ve been recommending ZeroSurge for years for high quality surge/rfi protection. Single outlet all the way up to whole house. They’ll even build you a custom device if you want...

Nordost QX4 and QB8 did the trick for me. Clean, clear, open, depth and musical!

Chuck nailed it. Let your ears be the judge. If it sounds the same keep any surge protection for insurance.

Nordost QX4!!

Paul McGowan — founder and Prez of PS Audio — has a gazillion helpful videos on the Ask Paul section of their website.  A few of them answer your question.  Not surprisingly, their view is: use a P-15 or P-20, but if you can’t, go directly to the wall.  Older power conditioners or glorified surge protectors may help things sound "cleaner," but they also usually mute dynamics, imaging, air, depth, and decay because they ruin the low-impedance-output-to-high impedance-input relationship you want as the signal moves along it’s path.   I’ve owned the BHK pre and monoblocks; fantastic gear.  They definitely sound better plugged into a P-15, which I still use for my Audio Research gear, preferring it to the Denali 6000T.  (And, BTW, the BHK pre sounds markedly better with the Tungsram input stage tubes that Upscale Audio promotes for that pre.)  No affiliation between PS Audio and me, but I’m a huge fan of the P-15.  

Nothing wrong with monster. I’ll bet we all used some of their products at some point when we got started in this hobby. They were the pioneers. It’s what sounds good to you that counts. Me, I’ve been impressed with shunyata conditioners. Even my wife can tell the difference. Do whats best for you and have fun. It’s a great hobby. 

My thanks to you all!  Great advice!  I knew the community would know.  Thanks again!

I was at dinner in Vegas with Noel Lee, Bob Crump and John Curl back in 2000, I recall he suggested I use an accelerometer to measure seismic vibes for my sub hertz platform, which is obviously a very good idea. I was just happy to be there, it was my first rodeo. 🤠

Noel Lee born 1948 (age 71)
San Francisco, California
Lee graduated from California Polytechnic State University with a bachelor’s degree in mechanical engineering and subsequently did work in laser fusion for the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. He quit his engineering job in 1974 to play drums for a country rockband. After the band separated, he founded Monster Cable Products in 1979, based on loudspeaker cables he invented and manufactured in his garage.

Ain't nuthin' wrong with owning and using a Monster AVS 2000. If I see one at the right price I will grab it.

Exactly how it will be used and what system I might put it in (AV system, maybe) is to be determined. But owing one is not a backward step.

This is an oft told, and rarely justified statement. Most quality amplifiers use inductive and other filtering means on the input to smooth out the rectified power peaks which happen only for brief periods of time on a linear power supply 100 or 120 times per second. Direct to the wall give you more top end, but it does not provide anything else in the way of sonic improvement and may be a detriment as usually the most critical thing is all your equipment sharing the exact same ground.

Older power conditioners or glorified surge protectors may help things sound "cleaner," but they also usually mute dynamics, imaging, air, depth, and decay because they ruin the low-impedance-output-to-high impedance-input relationship you want as the signal moves along it’s path.

Little is worse than having equipment connected to different outlets, dedicated or not. That's called a ground loop, and to that you can add ground level pumping (from your power amp). Yes XLR can eliminate much of that, but why cause a problem that needs to be fixed?
The AVS 2000 was a well rated product. Odds are you are better with it than without it, even for your amplifier. Don't go in with preconceived notions that you will lose dynamics, etc.   Just listen.

Whatever you may think of Noel Lee’s engineering and/or or marketing genius, He did delegate the Monster Power design project to Richard Marsh...author of the 1980 Audio Magazine article that announced to the world that the design and composition of capacitors matter to the sound quality of electronic components, an idea that utterly transformed the audio landscape, heralding the modern high end as we know it.  Richard, in return for lending his expertise and credentials to Monster Power, got funding to launch his own company that produced some great sounding electronics based on his capacitor work. Long gone. 

Monster made decent equipment. nothing wrong with it.  There are better equipment out there and also worse.

A point of clarification, Ground Loops are not caused by connecting to different outlets.  Ground loops are caused (mostly) by poorly designed/constructed equipment that do no incorporate proper grounding techniques.  Lack of proper cable shielding, etc.  If outlets are connected properly and to code, then the home grounding schemes are correct.  Sometimes outlets and boxes are not grounded properly.  That is a different issue.

In my family room where the TV/home theater system is located, I still use my trusty Monster Signature HTPS-7000 unit.

for my 2 channel listening room, I ran four separate dedicated lines.  each dedicated line has it's own hot, neutral and ground that is not shared with any other circuit and is run all the way back to the service panel.  

My amps are plugged directly into their own dedicate wall outlets.  The low level equipment (pre-amp, tuner, DAC, Turntable power supply, Electronic Crossover, Music Server, CD Transport) are all plugged into a Transparent Audio Power Conditioner, which is in turn plugged into it's own dedicated line.

I have done direct comparisons with and without the power conditioner and also before and after with the dedicated lines, and my noise floor dropped substantially. it is extremely silent.  

In any case, for the money, Monster projects are just fine.  Also, all manufacturers have some form or another of hype in marketing their products.  Monster is no different.

enjoy

Actually connecting to different outlets is a text-book definition of the cause of a ground loop, and much of what you described is not or at least cannot be called specifically a ground loop.

A ground loop is by definition having multiple paths for ground currents to flow such that the reference ground voltage is not the same between pieces of equipment and when that ground is used for a signal reference, that can lead to line-frequency hum, or signal injection due to ground injection from power supply transients, etc.

There are always multiple points of ground connection, i.e. interconnects, and where the AC grounds connect together. It is better to have those ground connect together as close as possible for all equipment, not back at the junction box 50 feet away.

A point of clarification, Ground Loops are not caused by connecting to different outlets. Ground loops are caused (mostly) by poorly designed/constructed equipment that do no incorporate proper grounding techniques. Lack of proper cable shielding, etc. If outlets are connected properly and to code, then the home grounding schemes are correct. Sometimes outlets and boxes are not grounded properly. That is a different issue.

No matter what it is your testing or considering for your audio system , always hear before commiting and let your ears and TASTE make the final decision .

Take your time . Listen while you are relax and in a good mood . Sometimes that which might be considered a small and subtle difference on long term listening might actually be ( because of our ears incredible hearing acuity ) very audible . 

But the bottom line is to take your desicion based on your ears and taste 
 .
On the subject of equipment design to protect your investment there are many on the market that will do it . As long as it doesn't have detrimental effect on the sound your'll be ok . Many even makes your system sound better . I've never personally tried a Monster Cable line conditioner or protector but have talk to some buddies who have which I trust and all say they work and don't have a negative impact on the sound . 

So as long as they protect and that is what your looking for Monster is ok . To finish I would like to recommend what I use which not only has protected my system but has cause a large step forward in sound quality for all the pieces in my system including my power amplifier . It is a Richard Grey product . if you can audition one of their products do so . By what I've read they don't always work for a better sound ( system dependent ) but when they do owners are extremely satisfied . Take care .

I also bought an HTS 5000 when they were new. I remember hooking it up and noticing a definite improvement in the sound. I was living in an apartment at the time with a mid-fi set up. I currently have a bedroom system plugged into it- Sony TV, Sonos Beam and Sub, etc. It's still working. 

Back in the day, Monster Cable was revolutionary with their thick speaker wire at $1.00 per foot. I also still have some of their M-Series cables which were pretty good, but they don't compete with AQ for sound quality. They do hold up better over time, though, as they don't fray and their outer casings don't pull away from the tips.

I had the largest unit Monster made don't recall the model number but it was almost 100 lbs. Had a large red LED display, it  was in my opinion a glorified surge protector. If you got a power spike it would in most cases save your system but fry its self. When you called Monster they said well it did what it was supported to do save your system. When I told them it was now an inoperable paperweight they refused to service it. What they failed to tell you in the literature was it in most cases was a one and done.

A $30 power strip with a protection built-in would do the same thing.

I have owned a PS Audio Power Plant 15 and now a 20 provides excellent CLEAN Power.

Many surge protection devices sacrifice themselves to protect the products they're connected to - it is an industry standard practice.
Regarding sound improvement - there are many devices at many price points available. Different homes usually have different needs, so different power supplies many work better in different homes.
After trying MANY, we purchased a $20k Sound Application power conditioner. The difference it makes is not subtile.

I'm using a Monster AV2000 and HTS5100 in main system, a HTS2500 with home theatre, and a HTS1800 for bedroom setup and have used Monster for years with no issues. My 5100 packed it in one time and Monster was quick to replace it. They have done their job in my opinion.

geoffkait23,102 posts07-02-2020 8:52amI was at dinner in Vegas with Noel Lee, Bob Crump and John Curl back in 2000, I recall he suggested I use an accelerometer to measure seismic vibes for my sub hertz platform, which is obviously a very good idea. I was just happy to be there, it was my first rodeo. 🤠

back in the days I used to buy mostly Monster cables, but I completely stopped patronizing Noel and his company after he got gun happy with so many "trademark oppositions" and a few lawsuits that had not merit. he actually did some damage to a couple of small companies that were trying to us "Monster" as part of their brand name. I remember reading about it and getting disgusted. He was a "Bully". It became so much of an issue that he actually had to defend himself with a response in Audioholics. The only thing that stopped him was his sound defeat after he sued his ex business partner  "Beats". He was ordered to pay millions of dollars. The funny thing was, this time the suit has nothing to do with patent infringements.

Same thing with Sony. I stopped buying Sony products after the heavy handed approach with lawsuits for copyright infringement the company started using geared toward young kids and their parents. It caused a very negative market response. They should had geared their efforts toward the big and medium companies and individuals that were ripping them off with illegal copying of their music, instead they went for the jugular of some kids. that was pathetic.     

There are speaker companies that use monster wiring  in there speakers .Yamaha  is one .

robert_1, I remember when Monster tried to pull that trick on a company, not knowing its owner was a lawyer. He publicly posted his reply letter and I think he may have even offered assistance to others. It was rather comical.

@ roberttdid 
yes. I do remember. wasn't it the owner of Blue jeans cable? I think that I am wrong, but probably someone else might remember who the actual lawyer was. I remember when lee went against  against monster mini golf and Monster transmissions. also Pixar's Monster Inc. there were so many that it wasn't funny anymore; basically he went after anything/anyone that included the word "monster" in it. What a prick.

Why would he sue BJC? Did they have a Monster in their blue jeans?

@geoffkait : Nah! Most likely a Monster wanna be inside Monster Cable's jeans.

But if the story is true why would Noel Lee sue BJC? I thought he only went after companies who infringed in the name Monster? 

@geoffkait : No. it's no story (s). Google him and lawsuits. I never said it was the owner of BJC. What I said was as a question: that since I didn't remember who the lawyer actually was that I though that it might have been the owner of BJC. I also asked for someone that might remember who the lawyer was.

@roberttdid;  sorry but I disagree with your assessment regarding the cause of ground loops.  Since it is physically impossible to connect all equipment to the same outlet, and most people actually have dedicated lines installed directly to the panel, that negates that argument.  

My experience has been that each and every ground loop I have found/diagnosed and cured was caused by poorly designed equipment that had poor internal ground schemes or poorly designed cables.

Isolating each piece until the actual culprit for the ground loop is found has been successful.  And it had absolutely nothing to do with the outlets or how many.  If ground loops were caused by connecting equipment to different outlets, then everyone would have ground loops all the time and that just isn't the case.

voltage differential on the ground path is the textbook reason.  However, what is causing the voltage difference in the first place?  That is what I was discussing earlier.

Also, there is a balance where companies become the 800 pound gorilla. most companies try hard to protect their patents or "brand".  laws are written and enforced based on the country.  Some are more open than others.  Some companies try hard to force you to use only their products and try to kill competition leaving only themselves as a monopoly.  

Sony, Phillips, and many others tried and failed.  Mostly because technology doesn't sit and wait and other's develop newer technology.

Now CDs are phasing out and streaming is taking over slowly.  But with streaming, you don't own the material anymore.  I'm not sure I like that.  I'm trying to get away from have a monthly payment for everything.  

As I said, Monster made decent products for the money.  I wouldn't consider it high end, but they were okay.

enjoy

You can do an 8 gang outlet, power bars can have 12. All share the same ground connection. You have only illustrated ground hum in your thread, not differential ground induced noise pumping.


The definition of a ground loop is having two point identified as ground that are not at the same potential that are used for signal references. I did not say that multiple outlets is the only cause of ground loops but it if a textbook example of how to create one. Most equipment signal grounds are isolated enough from power grounds that a differential is usually "shorted" via the interconnect.

I have a pair of Emotiva XPR-1's They require a dedicated 20 amp. circuit to reach full potential. Tried them both on a single 15 amp circuit first and then on dedicated 20 amp circuit.Even at low listening levels the dedicated circuit sounded better.Also what is a fellow to do as most power conditioners I can afford only have a 15 amp input. I'll tell you what, plug the suckers into the dedicated 20 amp circuit, like the manufacturer suggests and be done with it. Lol.

Lots of good info on here to consider. I had an AVS2000 for a long time and thought it worked best on the front end equipment and and video gear I placed on it. I did not like it as well on the main amps but also thought it performed well on the sub I had in the room. 

Try one component at a time. I believe there is a "tipping point" as far as trying to add one component too many so your ears will need to pay attention!