the OP hit the nail with the title of this thread- that’s saying a mouthful....the latest saying on the street is "old school is the only school"...I’ll take it a step further. it’s not only about big powerful speakers that were affordable. the whole audio experience has lost its touch. reason- they aren’t making high quality analog masters in the studios anymore, like they used to. that affects sound quality, in that the music doesn’t "draw you in" like it used to. I remember getting up on a Saturday as a kid, and starting to play vinyl records at around 10AM, on a consumer mid-fi 110 WPC solid state rig. and at 12:30PM I’d still be playing them, taking some breaks to eat and shower. and they sounded do damned good, and if I had nothing to do, or it was raining outside, or winter, or nobody around to hang out with, I’d keep right on playing LP’s until the played stack was dozens high, and the sun would be going down. 12+ hours straight of listening, or more- and it sounded awesome, and was a thrilling experience. Now I long for those days, cuz life has changed to the point, people just don’t enjoy music like that anymore- to that extent. they listen to music like buying fast food in the drive through. I think what we have to do, is put a couple days a month aside, or at least ONE day, to do nothing that day but listen to music. like the old days....
Missing the Old Days
I’m new to the higher end audio game. What I don’t know about modern audiophile technology and doctrine could fill a library.
What I do know is how I like to listen to my music, which I’m quite sure would make some crinkle their eyes and squint at me with a look of “my lord son, really?” Kinda look lol.
My first foray into good speakers are my current Goldenear Triton 5’s and my JL D108 Sub. They sound nice....very nice...but they just don’t sound the way I like. So now I’ll soon hook them up to a Parasound Halo A21/P5 which I’m sure will improve the sound.
However, I’m aware that it still may not deliver the goods for me personally. I miss the days of those big, solid, powerful speakers that’d shake the dust off your shelves and make the squirrels living in your my attic fear for their lives.
I miss my trusty old MTX AAL 2230’s. They weren’t fancy, they certainly weren’t overly detailed, but they kicked ass. They kicked a lot of ass. Where are the speakers that can deliver big sound, driving Bass and clarity without the need to run 1 or 2 Subs? Speakers that are powerhouses without costing 10, 15, 20 thousand or more? There used to be a time when you could go to any number of local Stereo shops and have multiple choices of all ranges of speakers and equipment. I have to drive an hour or more to find any store remotely close to that.
I’ve seen Tyler Acoustics, but I’m Leary. No dealers, only direct sales, very generic specs, and hardly any reviews anywhere. I’d like to hear a few of his models, the cheaper Halo 1’s that closely resemble my beloved MTX’s just look like a white van special Speaker with those shiny black woofers.
Maybe I’m just an old Deadhead stuck in the past, but if there are speakers like this out there that are quality and don’t cost as much as a car, I’d love to hear about them!
What I do know is how I like to listen to my music, which I’m quite sure would make some crinkle their eyes and squint at me with a look of “my lord son, really?” Kinda look lol.
My first foray into good speakers are my current Goldenear Triton 5’s and my JL D108 Sub. They sound nice....very nice...but they just don’t sound the way I like. So now I’ll soon hook them up to a Parasound Halo A21/P5 which I’m sure will improve the sound.
However, I’m aware that it still may not deliver the goods for me personally. I miss the days of those big, solid, powerful speakers that’d shake the dust off your shelves and make the squirrels living in your my attic fear for their lives.
I miss my trusty old MTX AAL 2230’s. They weren’t fancy, they certainly weren’t overly detailed, but they kicked ass. They kicked a lot of ass. Where are the speakers that can deliver big sound, driving Bass and clarity without the need to run 1 or 2 Subs? Speakers that are powerhouses without costing 10, 15, 20 thousand or more? There used to be a time when you could go to any number of local Stereo shops and have multiple choices of all ranges of speakers and equipment. I have to drive an hour or more to find any store remotely close to that.
I’ve seen Tyler Acoustics, but I’m Leary. No dealers, only direct sales, very generic specs, and hardly any reviews anywhere. I’d like to hear a few of his models, the cheaper Halo 1’s that closely resemble my beloved MTX’s just look like a white van special Speaker with those shiny black woofers.
Maybe I’m just an old Deadhead stuck in the past, but if there are speakers like this out there that are quality and don’t cost as much as a car, I’d love to hear about them!
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Here's a thought - a used pair of PSB Stratus Gold i. At 4 ohm and only 87 db efficient, they need a bit of good power to rock. Not only can they rock, but their detail and imaging, when pulled out from the front wall 3 to 4 ft and a couple of ft from the side walls, is incredible. I like their sound (bigger, richer and fuller) better than their newer models, sa. the Imagine T3. They can be found, on occasion, for around $1K. I have a pair in my second system and feel no need for a sub - when cranked a bit. The Stratus Gold i is a great combo of old school rock, mixed with new school detail and imaging. Unlike the Cerwin Vegas, they actually do present a deep taught base without adding a layer of tubbyness to everything. Good luck with your quest...Jim |
I have a similar pair of speakers to these. Never understood the need for a sub. Get these and rock on! http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649427189-legacy-audio-focus-se-beautiful-natural-cherry/ |
👍👍And they continue to be the good these days as well. A simple inexpensive cap upgrade and some new surrounds if needed and you have speakers worth listening to. The OP IMO is going about it wrong to spend 1k to 2k on new speakers. His Parasound fear would work great with Amy of the speakers you and I both mentioned. I had a set of Klipsch rf 82 ll. Retailed for about $1200.00. They lasted a week only to be replaced by 40 year old JBL L50 and some Infinity kappa 8. |
Kalali, Thank you! In the realm of mega Speakers the MR3 is not inexpensive @ $85K for the set MSRP, however compared to the competition its a "bargain" if one can use that therm :-) Good Listening Peter PS, Take a look at the Liberty Audio XvoX http://www.libertyaudio.com/products/x-vox-loudspeaker-system |
Peter, I just looked at your high(er) end floor standing speakers and they are truly works of art. Your Master Reference III model in particular is awe inspiring. I'm very glad to see someone out here kicking the butts of those mega $ European builders but unfortunately, I have this feeling that I’ll probably need to mortgage my house to even afford one of your lower end models. Wish you great success. |
I think after thinking about this, that the M2!5 has what might be called a "discerning" speaker. Meaning, it’s more likely to show differences in an amplifier’s current capability than less challenging speakers. Still, for the output I think that’s not a terrible price to pay overall. Based on Paul's other designs, and what I see here, he's arrived at the impedance authentically, and didn't deliberately try to make it this way just for the sake of showing up lesser amplifiers. Going back to my pro-theater roots, I’d be quite tempted to bi-amp these. Maybe with a Parasound A21 on the top, A23 on the bottom. Like I said, I really really like the design. These are minor nits. |
@pbnaudio - I was a little hyperbolic there! Yes, it is resistive, so it's not quite as bad as an exotic ESL or pure ribbon speaker, but even with the low impedance out of the bass area, a better than average amplifier should be used. OTOH, I assume it's very high efficiency, so the overall power used should be low. Also, kind of cries out for bi-amping, which then lets me use my favorite comination, bi-amping with EQ on the bass. :) Best, E |
Erik, With a low of 3.5 Ohms with a phase angle of 15 or so degrees is not out of normal for a nominal 4 Ohm speaker system - you must look at both impedance and phase angle. Through the whole Bass and lower midrange, where most of the current is delivered anyway, the speaker is almost resistive. Most amplifiers of modern design will drive this easily. Good Listening Peter |
Rebuilding old JBLs is one of the ways to go. Head on over to youtube and check out Kenrick Sound over in Japan. All they do is refurbish JBLs or upgrade crossovers on current inventory and they command a premium price around the world. If your computer audio is decent, the sound will win you over. If your audio skills are above average, you can remake a great speaker. All the best, Nonoise |
I also support the vintage JBL nod- if you want big sound on a budget. A vintage audio enthusiast friend of mine says the JBL 4698 B Cabaret is (was) the biggest secret in home audio. The JBL 4698B Cabaret Series is a 3-Way Speaker with 18" Woofer, 10" Midrange, and 2404H Tweeter. These were made for sound reinforcement but they make a killer home speaker. These keep up all day long with JBL 4343 4345 and blow the JBL L300 out of the water. Components in each cabinet are; E155 18" Woofer with Cast Aluminum Basket and 4" Voice Coil. Midrange is E110 10" Cast Aluminum Basket. The tweeter is a 2404H and is exactly the same as 2405, 077, 076, 075 but this one has baby cheek front for wide dispersion, these tweeters have a frequency response to 21.5kc. These speakers handle every type of music and do it well. Frequency Response is 35Hz- 21.5kHz. Power Handling 400 Watts RMS Continuous and 800 Watts Peak, Impedance 4 Ohms. Sensitivity is 103 dB/1 Watt/1 Meter. That makes these as efficient as a Klipsch Corner Horn Speaker. So these JBL’s are an excellent choice if you want to run low power tube amplifier or run high power solid state amp- these speakers do it all. The bass will mix concrete, smooth as silk midrange, and high frequencies that will give you goosebumps. Back in 1990, these sold for $2600/pr. I would plan on (re) building the cabs. They were designed for roadwork and they are not suitable for placement in most homes (ask my ex-wife...) I would use Russian birch plywood and a nice mahogany veneer. You will not be disappointed. |
Indeed...I have heard several different Zu Audio speakers at RMAF over the years and they can party hard on 30-75 watts a channel...cool company, cool people. I have an old pair of JBL Lancer 44s, refurbished LE 8Ts, in my basement system...small room and they are direct, clear and powerful in that space.... |
While I love my Tekton DI's, I'm not sure their refined sound is what the OP is looking for. I think back to the first time I heard and then bought a pair of of Altec Lansing Santana II's. Rock and roll heaven. And what about their even bigger brothers of that era? While these are not the speakers I would want today, I'd love to go back in time and have a listen. |
Zu Omen Def would fit your needs nicely. Or even Zu Omen Dirty Weekends if you wanted to dip your toe in the water for $999 and trade them in for full credit within a year. The Dirty Weekends play plenty loud, but Omen Def will bring the squirrels and girls to the party. And you get 60 days to try them in your home without paying a dime if you don't like em. |
Chrisoshea, now that’s what I’m talking about! Always love those old WB Green Label pressings! Since I just bought my Parasound Halo A21/P5 setup and haven’t even taken them out of the box yet, the chances of me turning them over into something different and possibly more expensive won’t happen if I want to live! Lol When I was at Holm Audio which is a Hi-Fi /HT store about and hour and a half North of me in the Chicago area, I was checking out the Rega Planar 6 & 9 models. I have my eyes on something a bit different for my eventual next TT.. for now my Debut Carbon will do. I do know what I want for sound and I guess that answer means unless I find something that gives me both the bombastic live rock sound AND that detailed, accuracy, I’ll end up with two systems lmao.. for now I’m gonna focus on new speakers and save the vintage stuff for a separate journey when I finally obtain that mint Pioneer SX-1980 or Marantz 2600! i was giving Klipsch another look last night, I’ve heard some of their floor speakers before and wasn’t overly thrilled, that’s strange sine I have a Klipsch Soundbar and a pair of ear buds that I both like. What’s up with those Ref7 III’s and Fortes? Their specs don’t look like they go very low on the Bass.. anyone have or had any of them? |
Thats is an easy question to answer I have 8 pairs in my collection that would work for you. here's the list Most of the JBL L line from the 70s L100's L50's L26 To name a few All have great attack and play other genres of music well to. Celestion Ditton 44 25 66 Great bass and a warmer east coast sound IMF TLS 50 TLS 80 Awsome in all regards. Infinity Kappa 8 Many early Acoustic ResearchTeledyne Era AR9 AR90, 91, 92 AR3 Match them with a Bryston 3b or 4b series amp and a matching Bryston B1 pre amp plus a quality DAC, important like a NAD M51 or again a Bryston bd1 You will have an awesome system that will play any music very well. Bonus... Under $4k total and the equipment will hold its value or appreciate in value. If any of the speakers above have not been recapped it is well worth doing. For the record I currently have now or have had all the gear mentioned above. Good luck |
Yes...I agree that going to audio shows if possible is a great idea...I also think that if you are near a larger city with a big used audio store you can hear many speakers in a short time.....There are an old pair of Klipsch Heresys (IIs from the 1980s) at the venue where I DJ .....They MAY need a sub for your tastes ...To me, they are transparent, balanced and will play at ear-bleeding sound levels without distortion....They rock hard, esp. with an analog front end.....These can be had for $350-600 used on Craigs list, or garage sales...NOT refined by any means but will rock for sure....JBLs are a possible good option as well..... |
I recently switched speakers within the same line, from a large'ish (115 lbs + stands) floor-standing, bass reflex (i.e., ported) model with multiple (4) medium sized (7.5 inch) bass drivers per box, to a slightly lower-priced, heavy (105 lbs + stands) stand-mounted model in a sealed box (i.e., acoustic suspension) with dual 9-inch bass drivers and mid/high frequency drivers that are very similar to those in the floor-standing speakers. I added a second high quality sub (two total) and run the two subs in stereo (i.e., signal from one channel to each sub, not a summed signal). IMO, the gains include better defined bass above 40 Hz and better bass roll-off above 40 Hz (from the main speakers), which also improved the clarity of the upper frequencies. The two subs provide better defined and harder hitting low bass below 40 Hz as well as much better control of the bass by adjusting subwoofer placement, cross-over frequency, and volume. In addition, the two subs each have a remote volume control so I can easily adjust the bass for a given recording without affecting the range above 40 Hz. IMO, it was a big improvement for a cost increase of around 25% of my total speaker cost, calculated based on retail pricing. |
Honestly I have a difficult time recommending subs to the average music lover. The total cost of ownership (TCO) can be quite high, and leave the listener pretty dissatisfied if not very carefully thought out. A lot more work than most want to know about or undertake. Having said that, a well integrated, physically large and powerful sub is a magical thing indeed. Best, E |
Really good points being made here! I certainly am not suggesting Ty and his Speakers are sub par, not on the up and up. What feedback I personally was able to find was very positive. When I saw those new Halo 1's for 2600 a pair, I was super excited, the shiny black woofers just struck a memory in me. My first experience buying speakers, way back in the early '90's was not good. I bought a pair of those "White Van" specials we all know of from the Brother of a friend. Needless to say within a couple days, after some pretty heated exchanges, I returned them and got my money back. I then bought the MTX AAL 2230's and never looked back. They still sit connected to that old Kenwood 100 watt receiver at my ex wife's house. After my experience with these Goldenears, I am on the hunt for that bigger natural sound. I dam near bought a pair of the current Cerwin Vega XLS-215's. But after reading numerous reviews, many people say you still need a Sub for them! All show and No Go is how I'd put it. They're dual 15" speakers, designed with no Balls I guess...At any rate, even though these Triton 5's sound nice, it's just not the same. I'm upgrading the Amp ten fold and adding a second JL D-108 Sub. And that'll be that until I find a new pair of Speakers. I will say, I listened to a pair of PSB Imagine T3's and was very impressed with their sound overall. But at $7500 a pair, I'm much better off spending 3k to 4k or going all in on the Double Impacts / Se's, or giving a higher end Tyler Acoustic Model a try. The search continues... I have time...gotta pay off the rest of my Amp first! :-) |
I'm a big fan of bigger woofers that aren't crossed over too low as well. In my mind 8" is the minimum woofer size that can give decent punch. 10" or more is better. A pair of 8" woofers is still fairly common and that can come close to a single 12. Small speakers mated to a subwoofer can't sound like big speakers with big woofers. Sub/sat systems can be great on some things but for large scale, dynamic music I've never found them satisfying. |
Doug S nailed it. My orders for the SW15 have been off the hook. Why? Because people want to get back to music and warmth. High End Audio took a weird departure back in the 90's and never really got back on track enough to satisfy many hunting for that full range, and not marginal full range, sound. I look at a lot of recommendations and think to myself "are these recommendations to the OP or High End Audiophile almost there but not quite suggestions". If someone is looking for a 15" inch sound, why not recommend a 15" sound. It's really fun watching the 12", 15" and 18" folks coming back to life. As well it's also nice seeing the paper tweeter folks back. Michael Green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
Here is a link to one such product from DIY Sound Group: https://www.diysoundgroup.com/sentinel-15.html Lots there I am confident you will love. (BTW, I am not a horn guy myself, just based on your tastes, I think this is for you.) Best, E |
BJ, I have Nuforce Ref 9V3SE mono amps w/TDSS Level 3 upgrades and the sound with the Double Impacts leaves nothing to desire further. Used these amps with 5 different systems and speakers since getting the upgrades. The results were the same with all 5, including the Bill Dion (grannyring) parts and driver upgraded version of the DI's. The sound instantly became so dynamic, with great presence, and bass that had major impact and clarity. The Ref 9's were already very nice sounding amps, but the TDSS upgrade made them much greater in all ways. SS amps may be THE way to go with the DI's--at least this pair of amps. Best regards, Bob |
Wow, thank you for all the suggestions, comments and personal experiences. After looking through most of these possibilities, I’m still drawn to the Tektons. The audiophile sound quality while coupled with the ability to capture that live music feeling and at that price point just keeps tugging at me. In reading through some of the posts about them, they seem to do best with Tube Amps. I’ll be using a Halo A21 and am curious to hear them. Hopefully they’ll be at Axpona. thanks again for helping this newbie out! |
I remember a pair of speakers that a friend had with15 inch drivers and a horn that set the foundation for every house party. The thing is that the system never faithfully represented the recorded event. We enjoyed the party and loved the music and that was the event. Today we are listening for flys farting and somehow want to be transported to the original event. Different goals different systems for sure, however I have heard the Tektons and they seemed to play to both worlds in my opinion. |
The Double Impacts are good, BUT...I’d have to put a vote in for Viking Acoustics Berlin R horn loaded speakers. They are a medium size monitor stand speaker that can play unbelievably loud with stupendous dynamics and marvelous tone. NO horn coloration. There have been a couple on Audiogon with one under $6000 used with stands. Said to be one of the best 7 sounding loudspeakers made--no cost considered. The Berlin R’s go for about $14,000 new. They have beautiful carved wood horns and stands also. They are now making a MK II model that costs over $20,000 that is an improvement over the original model. The horn is slightly larger and there are other small changes to elevate the model. True 97 db at I mtr. speakers. Can use most any quality amp including SET’s. They have great bass as it also receives the horn loading. You would not guess they were smaller speakers at all. Tremendous micro and macro details with no etch. If you can wait a couple months, the Aether Audio speakers company will be returning with a vengeance and their speakers are very similar to the Berlin R. They use a waveguide on the tweeter and are heavy, but medium sized stand mounted speakers they are ultra dynamic and able to go deep with power and PLAY LOUD with no etch or irritation. Bob |
The JTRs can do refinement, here's a video of the baby JTR towers, and, yes, I know, you're not going to get the full effect via YouTube played on computer speakers, but you can still hear the 'live-ness' and detail of the sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J8IyZ6idxQ The JBL stuff can be great too. Their new LSR7 Series powered speakers can also rock out, and they measure better than many of the older 4300 and 4400 speakers. Plus with the built-in amps, it's one less thing you have to buy. |
