Lyra Kleos arrives after eight months. . Worth the wait? First impressions

Sounds like they ARE fine, in fact.

Nice to hear from you mijostyn, but don't think you're going to get me spend any more money on any more equipment. You've already overachieved in that department. I do like the Kleos so far and my dealer did a nice job of setting it up using all sorts of specialized equpment.

Jaco Pastorius did play on Joni Mitchells Mingus album. It's a shame he self destructed the way he did, but that's so often the case with people with mental illnesses, especially with those who self medicate with street drugs. It's a sad story and I'm glad to have retired from having to deal with it on a professional basis. 

Lewm, if I knew what I was doing I'd try opening up the Luxman integrated and make the change you suggest. Things are hopefully fine the way they are. 

Mike

Sounds like the EC500 uses internal SUTs for MC cartridges, judging from Dover’s quote of the specs. “40 ohms” would refer to the internal R of the cartridge for example. The 2.5 ohm inputs would probably be fine for the Kleos. But it is indeed a costly unit. Best and simplest and cheapest course of action would be to open the integrated and change the load resistance, if in fact that’s even a problem.

Jaco records on Hejera , Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, Shadows and Light and I think Mingus but, I am not sure of that one. He is the only electric bass player to make it into the Jazz Hall of Fame. He also has an extremely tragic history. He was most likely bipolar. During a manic phase he got into a fight with a bouncer who killed him with some kind of karate move to his face. At one point he was sleeping on benches in NYC. The greatest electric bass player that has ever lived living like a homeless person. The jazz community should be ashamed of itself. Joni Mitchell should be ashamed of herself. She knew what was happening to him. After he died I could not bear to listen to any Joni Mitchell album Jaco did not play on. 

@skyscraper , I hate to say I told you so:-) Excellent moves on both the arm and the cartridge. Next you need a MinusK platform. I love spending OPM. 

I have been waiting already 6 months I think on my Atlas. I have no idea when it is coming. I think he makes the cartridges in batches. The less expensive cartridges are made more frequently. 

These cartridges are made very accurately. I suggest three devices if you want to set you cartridge up perfectly, the Wally Reference, the Wally Skater and any protractor that will give you Loefgren B DIN. For well built cartridges this is all you need. 

was the Joni Mitchell track "Cotton Avenue" from Don Juan's Reckless Daughter? Epic bass - Jaco is such a natural fit for her later work, I really wish they had done more work together.

Thanks Jim, I have been enjoying the Kleos the way it’s set up now. No further equipment upgrades are in the offing to be able to change the load. There’s always a potential equipent uprade you can make, but at some point we all need to know when it’s time to close the wallet and enjoy what we have. That’s the current plan. 

Willy-T hopefully my current system will work well for years to come, as is as I’m tapped out far as audio expenses go, short of pan-handling on the street or the stock market starts booming. Sounds like you did well with your trans impedance phono pre though.

Mike

Mike….let it break in and dont sweat the loading too much…IF you are worried about just clearing the “ theoretical “ load just PM jcarr this site…he has ears, expertise…and hyper importantly designed your cartridge :-) he is a great dude…gave me some tips to optimize my Delos in the Triplaner arm.

You are correct, the trip to Japan will take awhile… i have several cartridges to tide me over so to speak…. but that’s probably a different thread…. Shane the new distributor but and old hand in the industry ( Ex VP at Audioquest, current CEO of Intervention records ) and I have been in touch. ….

Neutral truth tellers be they cartridges or speakers just reveal whatever is on the record….. you have a truth teller in the Kleos… enjoy it in good health…… like somebody said…you HAVE an excellent system.

Best

Jim

I would highly recommend a trans impedance (current) phono pre 

over any conventional voltage  preamp I’ve ever heard .

nist replaced a Sutherland land 20/02 with a Sutherland Little Loco 

and the impact was greater than anything I’ve ever done to my room or electronics.

jist outstanding .they do require a low output moving cart though 

so yours should work great

Good luck Willy-T

Dover, the Luxman 507uX MK2 has only the one Phono (MC) setting which is100 ohms. Lyra specs indicate you can go as low as 95.8 ohm with the Kleos, so at least I’m in the ballpark, albeit barely.

Mike

@skyscraper

Dover and Karl, it would be nice to acquire a new phono stage, but honestly not in the cards right now.

I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it - you have a great system - probably better than most here. Tweaking the loading would be nice, but if it’s too hard don’t worry.

If your amp is similar to the EQ500 do try both MC inputs though - high and low - the high (40ohms) simply has less gain and higher input impedance compared to the low (2.5ohms ) which has more gain and lower input impedance. One or other will sound preferable - trust your ears.

@fsonicsmith 

The EQ-500 has continuously variable loading from the front panel of 30k to 100k Ohms which encompasses what the vast majority of MC cartridges need.

You have misread the specs.

The MM input has variable loading - 30k to 100k.

The MC input has only 2 fixed options for loading and does not have any flexibility.

As I said there have been several threads identifying this issue.

Here are the specs from the brochure for the EQ500 -

Its a little old fashioned in design.

Fsonicsmith, I looked up the Luxman EQ-500. It looked interesting until discovering it cost as much as the Fatboy and Lyra Kleos combined. Mind you, Audiogon folks already convinced me to double my budget to obtain a new tonearm for the Lyra, so please temper your suggestions. I’m not poor, but do have to live within my means. Of course with Christmas coming up I’d be happy to forward my address if any of you’d like to send one. Gift wrapping would be optional.

I’m curious about what they’d do to modify my integrated amp in Luxman’s service department to optimize it’s performance for the Lyra Kleos. Do you or anyone know? I did speak to someone named Jeff there right after purchasing the Luxman integrated amp. He was quite helpful as you indicate they were to you. Their products do seem to be very well engineered too, as you say, which factored heavily into purchasing one of their amps in the first place.

Dover and Karl, it would be nice to acquire a new phono stage, but honestly not in the cards right now. Maybe if the economy ever recovers it might be time to reconsider.

Mike

A nice 1:10 ratio SUT going into the 47k input would also be a potential improvement.  But I’d wait for several months to let the cart open up and get to know its capabilities.  

Actually Luzmans' top phono stage has very little ability to change the cartridge loading. If he was to invest in a phono stage he would be better off with a different brand - there are many posts on this forum on the lack of adjustability with the Luxman phono.

If it was me, I'd look at the possibility of increasing the input impedance on his integrated amp moving coil to 470k which should work fine with the Kleos.

The EQ-500 has continuously variable loading from the front panel of 30k to 100k Ohms which encompasses what the vast majority of MC cartridges need. I am sorry to tell you this but the vast majority of MC cartridges are happiest at 50-300k Ohms and not 47K. 47K serves MM and step-up transformers. To your other point I do agree that there is no need to be wedded to Luxman. But Luxman does make very well engineered and great sounding gear with amazing product support. 

@fsonicsmith 

Actually Luzmans' top phono stage has very little ability to change the cartridge loading. If he was to invest in a phono stage he would be better off with a different brand - there are many posts on this forum on the lack of adjustability with the Luxman phono.

If it was me, I'd look at the possibility of increasing the input impedance on his integrated amp moving coil to 470k which should work fine with the Kleos.

Fsonicsmith I wish I’d have the same capabilitites on my Luxman integrated amp’s phono stage to make the adjustments you have tried. For better or worse those settings are fixed for either a mm or mc cartridge on my integrated amp, but that’s it.. There are no adjustments possible. Truthfully I hardly know what most of these or other specs mean anyway. I think I correctly figured out prior to purchase the 100 ohm impedance spec preset for a mc cartridge significantly limited my choice of cartridges. Glad you’re in a better situation.

Mike

Mike, I am the proud owner of a Luxman P-750u headphone amp. I can tell you from first-hand experience that Luxman's product support is way beyond. So perhaps you could reach out to Jeff Sigmund at Luxman USA and ask for a deal on a Luxman phono stage. You have invested good coin in your Lyra. Perhaps an easy modification of your integrated amp would do the job if you were to hypothetically stick to the Lyra Kleos for the indefinite future. Luxman's resident wiz in the USA is Steven at 

The Service Department
30 Unquowa Hill Street
Bridgeport, CT 06604
(203) 331-0671

 

So I know my post is potentially confusing but you could add a dedicated new phono stage with far greater adjustment and great build and sound for the sake of being future-proof or you could send your integrated into Steven with the input of Jeff Sigmund to optimize your integrated for your Lyra Kleos.

Fsonicsmith I wish I’d have the same capabilitites on my Luxman integrated amp’s phono stage to make the adjustments you have tried. For better or worse those settings are fixed for either a mm or mc cartridge on my integrated amp, but that’s it.. There are no adjustments possible. Truthfully I hardly know what most of these or other specs mean anyway. I think I correctly figured out prior to purchase the 100 ohm impedance spec preset for a mc cartridge significantly limited my choice of cartridges. Glad you’re in a better situation.

Mike

Mike

I have the Etna. See my profile (if you like). With my Reed 3P arm which comes with it's own wire from clips to RCA's and a Manley Steelhead I prefer the 50 ohm setting over 100 or 200. It seems the autoformers in the Steelhead do some unique things compared to more common phono circuit designs. So the fact that 50 ohms works best in my system means little or nothing for others with different cabling and a different phono stage. Don't ignore gain! The Steelhead offers 50, 55, 60, and 65. On paper 60 ought be optimum IIRC but I much prefer 55. The difference is subtle but to my ears with my gear the higher gain setting results in just a bit of stridency and glare that disappears at 55. With my ancillary gear obtaining sufficient volume is not an issue at any gain setting and I remain at the lower third of volume range with my ARC Ref 6 irrespective of gain setting. 

As to SQ, my other deck, My Thorens TD124 with another Reed 3P has a VdH Crimson XGW Stradivarius mounted. Both go into the Steelhead (I love having three phono inputs on my Steelhead!) and by pure coincidence I prefer the same gain and loading with both. I go back and forth as to which I prefer. The Lyra Etna is supreme with the very best pressings but at the cost of being ever so slightly analytical compared to the VdH. The VdH is slightly fleshier, not as lightning quick and lacks the extremely tight bass of the Lyra but the music flows in a slightly more pleasing fashion. The VdH is a chameleon as I can never predict if a particular record will sound amazing or just good, whereas the Lyra is a bit more even-handed with well pressed records. Both are equally finicky as to set-up-when things are perfect you know it. 

Daveyf, thanks. I hope the Fatboy arm works well with the Lyra. The dealer that sold the VPI Fatboy and installed the Lyra on it certainly thought it would. VPI’s owner has used them on demos too. The dealer certainly took the time to accomplish a precise setup and thought the installation met Lyras specs in eacch regard.

I’ve tried to purchase components that all deliver a neutral, clean, uncolored and detailed sound, so hopefully synergy will be there. It would be interesting to be able to substitute some other equipment in to see if there would be more or less synergy. Out here in the boonies that’s unlikely to be able to accomplish though.

Jim, since I’ve always tried to acquire neutral components, so what you are saying seems to apply, although I wonder why that would be so. Wonder how long it might take to get your Delos back too. Might pay to contact the new Lyra rep to get an idea.

Mwiinkc, there have been multiple reports online of individuals waiting eight months or more for their Lyras to arrive, There was even a thread on one on Audiogon just a few days ago, where I advised the OP to contact the new American distribution rep for Lyra. My Lyra arrived not long after contacting that rep, perhaps coincidentally, perhaps not. At least one dealer I’m aware of announced discontinuing their line due to this issue.

Mike

Thanks for the review.

Keep us posted as it breaks in.

Upscale Audio and MusicDirect both report that they keep it in stock and is available for immediate delivery. Strange that you had to wait so long.

lyra are imo worth the wait. My Delos will go back to Japan soon. 50-100 hours seems about right. Your and others observations about suitability for a type of music is an audiophile curse for neutral components….  We all suffer this to some degree. Your Black was pretty neutral  expecting a Lyra to be much different in that dimension is unfounded. Best to you and enjoy the music ;-)

Jim

Congrats on the new cartridge, it's a keeper.

One thing about the Kleos and the new angle Lyra's in general, they require a very precise set-up and benefit from exact loading, depending on the phono stage and the phono cable. In my system, 750 ohms works best, but that may not apply to all applications. My Kleos really opened up after about 90+ hours, and now it sings. I have heard this cartridge in arms that don't really work for it, generally because they are too heavy, and are unable to be set up precisely to include SRA, VTF and Azimuth. So the key to getting the most out of these Lyra's, IME- is one word..synergy. 

Bigkidz, I wouldn’t mind upgrading the current phono-stage iin my Luxman L-507uX Mk2 integrated amp, but will likely have to wait until hitting the lottery. the Kleos plus VPI Fatboy purchase has tapped me out on equipment purcases. Its’ phono stage is set at 100 ohms for MC cartridges with no adjustments possibe. It would be interesting to be able to adjust it to the 475 ohms you prefer. Maybe someday.

Baylinor, you seem spot on identifying the types music the Kleos does best with. I’ve yet to try it on any Classical yet, so willl give it a shot straight away. It did well with some later Joni Mitchell and Laura Nyro, both Miles Davi’s "Big Fun" and "Steamin’" albums, as well as an old Deutsche Gramophine pressing of Debussy’s "Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun" playing now. Some old Sam Cooke and King Crimson’s "Starless and Bible Black" weren’t anything exceptional, but some later Roxy Music material was. An old Charlie Musselwhite Chicago blues recording on Vanguard sounded great. I’ve been sampling a little of everythng as you might surmise.

Czarivey, I guess so, The Lyra Kleos seems to be opening up more over time, but not as dramatically as after the first several hours. That’s kind of how it went with my Magico A3 speakers too. We'll see how this proceeds as the fifty hour mark Raul mentioned is apprached.

Mike

wow so fast??

I have a VPI Classic 1 with the uni pivot. For what it's worth the Kleos likes a perfectly parallel VTA to the record surface. It also likes 475 ohms best on the phono stage. To my ears anyway and it follows Kleos recommendations.

I have the Kleos, love it for acoustic music, female vocals and classical. Not so much for anything requiring punch, like electronic music, prog rock, hard rock or even funky jazz like the Crusaders. Since those types of music are my favorites, I use a Sumiko Starling, much better fitted for it. Still keeping the Kleos.

When we upgraded the phono-stage, that made a bigger sound quality improvement then the cartridge.  But it all is important.

Happy Listening.

Solypsa, you’re no doubt correct and I misremembered the reason to make the VTA adjustment. Appreciate the clarification.

Mike

Don't think Boron flexes much. The  suspension certainly does settle tho

Raul, thank you, and I’ll keep listening for further improvement as the Lyra Kleos moves towards the fifty hour mark. Something to look forward to.

Vinylzone, hopefully the dealer who set up the cartridge achieved the "hyper-critical" setup you mentioned. He worked on setting the Lyra up for about three hours utilizing computerized and other electonic equipment to meticulously do so. It sounds like he suceeded admirably. At fifty hours I’m instructed to adjust the VTA a bit as the Lyra’s boron cantilever is supposed to flex a bit as it breaks in. Luckily the VPI Classic 2 has the "on the fly" VTA adjustment feature so that shouldn’t be too hard.

P.S. please pardon a couple typos in the initial post to this thread. I wish Audiogon would enable posts to be corrected ongoing so we don’t appear to be illiterate. 

Mike

I currently own a Helikon Mono and a Delos stereo.  They are by far my two favorite cartridges.  Setup is hyper critical, but when you get it right they're magic.

Dear @skyscraper  :  I owned the Kleos and is a very good performer and its real  quality levels performance will be at 50 play hours at least.

Congratulations.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.