Last time I had a Lyra, it was the Parnassus, years ago, TOTL at the time. "If you want the best, this is it," the Dealer told me. Sold it fast.
I find myself agreeing with Chakster’s view – I’ve had MM and MI languishing in my drawer for years, while I was MC-only. Now I enjoy them more than my MCs. I still have a couple I have tried yet, but current favorites are:
AKG P8ES (old model)
Pickering XSV/3000
Stanton 881S
Empire 2000Z (very exciting)
I just installed a NOS AT ML150-OCC, and liking it so far.
And this one is a "Franken-cartridge" – a Grace F8 body with a Shure V-15 VMR stylus. The F8 is identical internally to the more lauded F9E, so it brings that sensuous full sound – while the Shure stylus is far more advanced than any of Grace styli I had – I had 5 Grace carts at one time, different models, but a burglary ended that chapter.
I didn’t like Shure carts at all – their watchword was "flat" but they just sounded dead to me. But give them credit: they had far more resources for R&D, and it showed in their late stylus design. So the Grace + VMR is pretty spectacular. It’s very fortuitous the stylus fits perfectly, though the plastic holder needs some Dremeling. (And it has that little damping brush too – I haven’t made my mind up on that yet.)
All of them are NOS, so with some TLC I have a lot of years with them left to enjoy.
Maybe I’ll try an MC again soon, and switch loyalties again. I don’t think of myself as "fickle" but who knows. I’m having my Rosewood Signature retipped, and I’ll have to at least try it – so maybe that’ll start a renewed MC "phase"...
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I have been using Lyra Delos and Kleos over the last decade to my entire satisfaction. They were my favourite cartridges. 1 year ago I bought a new turntable / tonearm combination. Unfortunately I could not get the Kleos to perform in the new setup, it sounded flat and thin. In my opinion the Lyras are outstanding cartridges in the right setup and when tuned in carefully. They will extract everything from good recordimgs and comp,ex orchesteas. With lesser recordings I find warmer sounding cartidges more pleasant. Highly recommended in the right setup.
I changed to a Benz Micro Gullwing which is easier to setup and has a bit more flesh on the bone.
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Finally nailed the Delos after months of tuning.
learned previously-
*likes lower gain than usual
*alignment is critical
*level the top of the headshell, tonearm level is not relevant.
today i finally tried a low capacitance phono cable (50pf per meter).
this allowed me to set the loading at 475 ohms, per the manual cable capacitance and loading are very much related.
my previous cable was 110 pf which liked 200 ohms loading.
the cartridge sounds better, its best actually, with 50pf cables and 475 ohm loading. sound is cleaner, no trace of ringing, more neutral and natural.
a very complicated cartridge that may not sound good with typical MC cartridge settings. |
I enjoyed one for years. Great synergy with the Well Tempered Amadeus. |
For reference I just learned something about my Delos the other night-
A new recording was sounding especially bad- edgy and not fun to listen to.
I experimented with everything.
I made a nice improvement by lowering the gain on my phono preamp for the Delos to 52db down from 58db.
58db is just a touch too much for the .6mv Delos.
52 db is usually too little gain for a .6mv cartridge but it sounds fantastic, much better. Did not lose any dynamics either which was a surprise.
So it appears that the Delos likes gain on the low side for its output.
Try it if you haven't already. |
what lewn said. totally agree.
if the proper understanding of all parameters is done correctly there is no reason to be tweaky
there are 2 kinds of people I know . set correctly and done within the hour. or keep tweaking for months and months and years. guess which one sounds better? and why. |
But it isn’t tweaky and complex, if you establish a routine and follow it, and leave it alone once you have set it up to your satisfaction. It is tweaky and complex to people who cannot stop tweaking or who approach the issues inflexibly. |
Tweaky and complex, I meant to say |
This was an interesting thread to me, myself having sold good stereo equipment and having nearly 5 decades experience as an audiophile. First lesson from the thread is how important synergy is. Second lesson is just how tweaks and complex playing records at a high level is. My shaky hands don’t allow me to tweak the way I used to with phono cartridge and arm adjustments, hence my relief at the vast improvement in digital reproduction over the last several decades. |
got a fantastic and very detailed note from @jcarr about a question i had re Delos on Triplaner.
Ozzy, we long since left the OP and the community of Delos and better Lyra owners have found some ground, fertile in places to gather…turns out it is here…. |
Being a Ortofon user myself it is pleasing to see a Comparison.
An noticed Increase in the Soundstage is in my experience a trait that is an attractor. |
i just did a comparison between my lyra delos and similarily priced ortofon cadenza blue. have had the delos in my system for a few months.
used to love the sound of the Cadenza Blue. The Lyra has a much more dynamic colorful sound with a larger sound stage.
i loved the sound of the Ortofon but it now sounds flat and dull by comparison.
The Delos is the real deal. note: Delos has 60 hrs.
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Jafant itvwas a Shanling T200 and it sounded awesome until the decoding board slowly and very slowly started dying. Every month an additional 3 to 6 or so CDs would not play ever again. It was like I had a virus in my CD collection but the modder said it was a known issue about the decoding board in that player. Sadly Shanling does not support it. Curiously when I retired it 5 years ago it still would play one and just one CD out of my 500 plus CDs. The best of the Mamas and Papas!!! The Shanling looked cool though. It reminded me if a moon station I built in the Boy Scouts!! 😆 |
I was guessing that Pindac's native language might be German.
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@pindac Why are you capitalizing certain words mid-sentence? |
blueranger
what was the SACD player modded in question?
Happy Listening! |
Please rest this thread. I'm 60 and have noticed the break in in various pieces of equipment. One SACD PLAYER had a 2k mod done in 03 and when it came back it sounded lifeless. It was until I ran in continuously for hours and the tubes opened up then the sound was awesome. If I had of made a review the first day then it would not have been a valid review. Same thing with the last speakers I bought. It took weeks until they opened up. Now 3 years ago I dropped 10k on an amp and right out of the box on the first couple of notes I heard a certain purity of tone and a dark background that wasn't there with the 20 year amp it replaced. Same manufacturer. |
You guys are still plugging away as if this is a valid thread. How sad....... |
under the right setup.. it's very balanced very high resolution separation dynamic excellent bass. not tilt up in any way.
It's very big image and high energy sounding. not very warm towards the nuetral. but texture timber etc is there.
I have to give this a very fair review. as I listen to them with various setup for almost 5 yrs edition 1 and edition 2. it's picky though with system cause of the high resolution and the burn in is quite long. it's one of the carts that I could. hear 3 layers of stage. like a high end cd. if your a high resolution freak this is the right one.
no such thing as bad really. matter of system synergy. it's better to think what your system needs.. that's is the personal best one.
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IME, there is no component (nothing) that sounds "bad", "horrible", "wrong" out of the box, and turns into a good, great, fantastic after x hours. The real character is audible within the first hour. After that it is only about smoothening out and opening up overall. If you don't like the fundamental sound of Lyra in the first hour, it is going to be the same even after 200 hours.
Totally agree, never owned Lyra, but it's about any cartridge. And a tiny VTF/VTA adjustment, azimuth or overhang will not do the magic! |
If any individuals really thinks the use of "Words" for a description such as,
"bad", "horrible", "wrong" is the best way to refer to their findings during a evaluation/assessment of a Product, especially about a product that has not got any easy to discover 'user reviews' that relate to the choice of ''Words" being selected.
In all the posts on this Thread, there is one Post that refers to a Perception of the MC have a High Frequency Emphasis when used in their System, but again, there is not any other information to inform on the Downstream Devices in the Vinyl Chain.
I can myself put on certain Vinyl Pressings from the 80's through a SUT and Valve Phon' and experience very over emphasised High Frequencies that are not attractive.
Such a experience is not a reason to condemn a Cartridge, it is about learning how to allow a Cartridge to perform at its best.
Taking a further look for something Downstream in the Vinyl Chain, might show a contributing factor to the cause of the concern raised in this report.
As it looks like the Hana Interfaced with the Downstream in a manner that was attractive and satisfying.
When making a choice for a different MC with the intention of the MC being able to punch above the weight of the capabilities of the Hana.
The improved design of the Lyra MC, may as a result of the improved Design element, be able to expose the Devices that are Downstream in the Vinyl Chain with a more noticeable and increased perception.
The Lyra Delos not seem to have the capability to offer a Presentation that reflects the need to use the "Words" that have been chosen to describe the MC's Interface into the used System.
A search will show that there are user reviews, that vary in the commentary, there is a reference that is not a condemnation of the MC,
but refers to the MC as revealing in the Upper Frequencies.
That description is in keeping with one Post made in this Thread, and
that post was also not condemning the MC.
Others users of the Lyra Delos are more complimentary, referring to the overall Balance across the frequencies and the good impressions it has made when used in their Vinyl Chain.
When assessing a Item to be purchased, it is best to gather a broad spectrum of the user reports.
Trying to identify the Systems Types that the users had entered the Item into.
This as a preparation can give a more educated evaluation than pre conceived thoughts, followed by the realisation, that expectations were not as great as one thoughts had projected.
Being offered a Opportunity to experience a Item in advance is a diminishing offer and when made, is a opportunity to gather as much Information as possible.
If a Vendor or Friend was willing to allow me to experience a Cartridge that I have had expressed an Interest in, ( which has happened on a few occasions in the 00's).
I have asked almost immediately, to be able to take my own Phonostage along to the Demonstration, to learn how the Resident Phon' compares to my own one, when in use with the Cartridge.
A lot can be learned in a Short Space of time and with a minimum outlay.
If one chooses their Words carefully during these experiences, a long term Friendship can develop, as has in my own experiences.
The OP informs that the initial experience of the Lyra Delos was on a
Valve Phon' and it is a assumption on my part, that the experience was capable to produce a good impression, one that was enough to encourage them to Pull the Trigger on a Purchase.
It is possibly a result of this limited experience of the MC that has created the Interface within their own System that is not as Satisfying as the one that was being imagined.
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IME, there is no component (nothing) that sounds "bad", "horrible", "wrong" out of the box, and turns into a good, great, fantastic after x hours. The real character is audible within the first hour. After that it is only about smoothening out and opening up overall. If you don't like the fundamental sound of Lyra in the first hour, it is going to be the same even after 200 hours. |
The assessment as being publically made known as being 'horrible' is about a MC Cartridge owned for One Month.
There is not a reference made to the Cartridges 'hours of usage' within the Month of being owned.
A Cartridge that has had limited Hours of usage, does not create the best time to assess the overall performance, the Cartridge is going through a settling in period.
In general the view is that a Cartridge will start to present at its best with approx' 100 Hours of usage.
My own experience when using this as a Guide, is that the perception of a improvement will become noticeable.
Additionally the Balance across the frequency range will become Cohesive, and not perceived as a Certain Frequency being overly present.
In the early Days of using a Newly Rebuilt MC Cartridge on my System,
using a Valve MM Phonostage and Hashimoto SUT
the Bass was noticeably concealed and the Mid's were Projected and the Highs were Dominant.
A Silver Wired DIN Plug Tonearm Cable, made the Highs quite noticeable and dominant, I won't use the term SHRILL, as this is very Subjective as a description.
According to my notes taken,
the Copper Wired Phono Cable was used for much of the Settling In Period, which was attractive as it was offering a perception of adding a richness and little extra authority and weight.
The Rebuilt MC Cartridge was used in a friends System with the Same
TT and Tonearm, on a few occasions to be compared to other MC 's throughout the first few hundred hours of usage.
The Rebuilt Cartridge showed noticeable changes during the demonstrations, and all were for the perceived as being Better during each of the occasions where the usage was increasing in Hours.
The Rebuilt MC is a much Valued Cartridge and one that is to be maintained, and another MC from the same Brand is to be produced with a similar design.
The Silver Wired DIN Plug Tonearm Cable was also put back into use after approx' 100 Hours of the Cartridges usage as it was seen to be the Better cable, over the Copper Wire and was now able to deliver a very attractive sound quality.
A New Cartridge with very limited usage can not offer a True Insight to the Cartridge's Capabilities as a performer, a Run In Time is vital to be allowed for.
From my own experience and from those experiences made known from Friends with similar interests in Vinyl.
Only after allowing for about 100 Hours of Usage, can it be decided if the Cartridge is able to offer a performance that is attractive and satisfying.
Also at around this time of usage will the Cartridge best show how it can interface with other Ancillaries
In my case the MC was a Rebuild carried out to a unique Spec, If the end product was not meeting my preferences then Hey Ho, at least I had a new experience under my hat.
Not a lot could be said by others as the general contributors to a Forum would not know of a Product done to the Spec I had commissioned.
In the Case of the Lyra Delos, this is a Well Known Cartridge and has been experienced by others in there own Systems or in a System used to demonstrate it.
From the information being supplied within this thread, it seems there is a lack of information being made available to show the set up the MC is in use at present, apart from the info that there was a Demo of the MC on a Valve Device.
One thing is very evident, there are posts that are a valuable support being offered to help understand the cause of the condition that has raised a concern.
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I do believe the Delos is tipped a little towards the highs but it still sounds great. It has great resolution for is cost. Try a lower tracking force. I always thought 1.75 was too heavy on my system. Around 1.7 sounded the best. |
You guys are treating this thread as a serious thread and the poster as relevant. Could anything be more ridiculous? |
I've been using unipivots that came stock on my VPIs for...7 years at least and while I'm not qualified to talk about what the advantages/disadvantages over a gimbaled or knife-edge or univpivot, my Lyras have worked splendidly to my ears.
Now, having said that I understand how people can be really dissatisfied with too bright. I hate it myself especially with my aging ears. But I found, at least in my case, the balance of the system is what is the crucial factor. My whole system, or at least half of it (the power amp and the speakers) err to the warm side.
The one "warm" cart I owned (a Koetsu) I found to be far too muffly and wooly for me.
Anyway, seems to me that every component has to be considered to get all these things mostly right. I tend to think most every modern speaker these days (saving some British models and a few others) tend toward bright and forward and if the cart is bright, the amps are analytical, etc., you'll be far to an extreme and that could be the problem people are having. |
I too have found the Helikon to be a wonderful cartridge. Always heard it on a Lp12 with Aro tonearm. But never heard the same balance in a Delos. |
@rushfan
Im running the metal uni pivot right now with a 3d reference gimbaled on the way. It was suggested that, the better damped arm will further improve all aspects of the Kleos. The performance of my Kleos took an enormous leap forward when I moved from a uni-pivot arm to a Kuzma 4-Point. |
I had a Delos at one time on a VPI Aries and JMW 10 arm going into an all tube phono preamp, preamp and 2 monoblock tube power amps I had a similar experience to the OP. Despite having 40 years + with high end vinyl playback, and no matter how much tweeking I did to VTA,Azimuth,Loading,Tracking weight, I could never get it to sound anything but overly revealing and bright.
It worked well on well recorded audiophile vinyl but was mostly unlistenable with other music. I moved onto other cartridges like Koetsu, Benz, Hana.....all better to my ears. many people like the Lyra sound but that sound may have changed over the years.
I had a Lyra Clavis on my table at one time and loved it. It was borrowed from a friend. That's why I bought a Delos. What a letdown. Maybe it can sound better with a different table/arm? |
I read the OP and a few initial responses, then jumped to the end. So I may have missed some posts, and this may be redundant. But, OP, I own a few Lyras, a Koetsu, MSL, and a VDH. I know what you're talking about with the Lyra's resolution. But, in my experience, it's all about the phono stage (assuming correct VTA/SRA, alignment, yada yada). With my ARC REF 3SE, the Lyra Etna Lambda and Delos sound marvelous. What you're hearing as shrill, I'm hearing as resolving, airy, spacious, and realistic, accompanied by a solid lower octave foundation, warmth when called for, midrange bloom when it's there, and what I consider an overall perfect tonal balance. Not "bright." When I pop in certain SS phono stages, it gets noticeably bitey, including that dreaded sense that the fairy dust isn't softly landing on you ear but rather stinging you. Gotta go with what works in your system. But I humbly submit that it's wrong to conclude there's something wrong with Lyra's sound. Done right, paired right, its a frickin' amazing cart for the $$$. If your red wine isn't going soo well with your ice cold sorbet, it's not the red wine. |
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Flembo, I’m also running a Kleos on a VPI into a Chinook.
I completely agree with your assessment.
The difference being I run the Chinook @47k using a Bob’s Devices Sky 30 SUT.
Bob personally recommended that one based on my equipment and cabling.
If any thing I feel the dynamics improved a step further and the advantage of lower noise, due to reducing the gain to 40db, well that just let more of the music shine through.
Quite passages quieter ect...
Im running the metal uni pivot right now with a 3d reference gimbaled on the way. It was suggested that, the better damped arm will further improve all aspects of the Kleos.
I guess we’ll see |
@pani
You're probably right about new schools and old schools, but you can have both. I don't have a Delos, but I have a pair of Helikons, a pair of Kleos and an Atlas and when your system is working in synergy with the Lyras, you get wonderful tonal richness, flow and warmth AND outright resolution.
I have my Lyras on a VPI going into a Manley Chinook (which I loaded for the Atlas factoring in tonearm and phono cable capacitance), into a recently recapped Accuphase C-280L preamp and out to a recently recapped McIntosh MC-2300 and from there into a pair of recently recapped AR-9's (Teledyne 1978 ~ 1982). All solid state except for the Chinook and IMO it is fabulous. I do not feel like I am missing anything in the way of tonal richness or warmth and, of course, the Lyras extract details out of the records that I often never knew were there.
I've owned Shelter (but not that 7000), a Koetsu Rosewood Standard, a Dynavector XX-2 Mk I ... The Dynavector was the best of that lot, but when I got my first Helikon I knew I'd found home. |
Dearb @jeffvegas : ""
Yes, delete the thread. ""
As thethread OP is you who can delete this thread, no one else can do it.
R. |
As someone who runs both a Shelter 7000 and Lyra Kleos, I can say w/o hesitancy that I love both. The presentations are much different and that why I love them - Shelter is smooth and laid back while the the Lyra has more immediacy and slam.
Slam and immediacy apart, they belong to 2 different schools. Within the analog domain, there are different camps. The Lyra camp has always been after resolution, frequency response etc, which is a modern take. The old school camp probably value tonal richness, flow and warmth over outright resolution. In that sense if one staunchly belongs to one school, it is difficult for him/her to enjoy the other side of the sound. The best is of course a neutral no-nonsense cartridge, but thats not easy to find. Kondo IO ? |
@pani Get a Shelter 901mk2 or Shelter Accord. Even a Dynavector XX2 mk2 is good. You will be happy.
Btw, I have heard the Delos sounding shrill, thin, digital as well as nice & analog. You can’t do anything now with it if it is not sounding your way. It has a certain character that some can’t take. You won’t like a Kleos either.
As someone who runs both a Shelter 7000 and Lyra Kleos, I can say w/o hesitancy that I love both. The presentations are much different and that why I love them - Shelter is smooth and laid back while the the Lyra has more immediacy and slam. |
The Delos is an excellent cartridge. It may be one of the best at that price. |
This thread is sad. Ones opinion seems to matter above all others. |
Yeah I wouldn’t delete the thread either. It’s important for Audiogon members to historically note who the OP is. Let it stand, very informative. |
Get a Shelter 901mk2 or Shelter Accord. Even a Dynavector XX2 mk2 is good. You will be happy.
Btw, I have heard the Delos sounding shrill, thin, digital as well as nice & analog. You can't do anything now with it if it is not sounding your way. It has a certain character that some can't take. You won't like a Kleos either. |
I'm not sure about deleting the thread. I think there are lotsa lessons in here.
It's clear plenty of posters are familiar with Lyra and immediately knew something was very amiss with the OP's original take -- thus all the mocking and derision and offers to buy the cart "right now."
Thankfully, both for the poster and for Mr. Carr and his excellent designs, doing what we knew was the correct prescription -- i.e. getting the right phono pre and the right set up -- turned that "bright shrill cartridge" into the wonderful devices we Lyra fans know they are.
In any case, it seems all's well that ends well in this particular audio drama. |
Set up, set up, set up...
This is where, you say "thank you" to all those who were sharing their experience with you, and trying to help you solve the problem.
Set up, set up, set up...
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I have put a follow up discussion on the Delos. System matching and calibration is extremely important with this cartridge. delete this thread moderator.
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@dover +1, absolutely! My Delos is an excellent cartridge and I highly regard it as an integral component of my system. I fully agree, this thread should be deleted altogether. |
atmosphere, I had an Electron Kinetics Eagle 2 on the bottom of the
4a's. Your amps while sonic champions in the midrange, suck in the bass
department. I've had the Eagle in my own system at home. I can see why people liked it at the time- as solid state amps of the period went it was pretty smooth (but not as smooth as a good tube amp). But as to playing deeper bass- on my speakers (Classic Audio Loudspeaker model T-3; flat right to 20Hz) I found myself turning up the volume to try get more impact out of the Eagle - despite its power and the 98dB efficiency of the CALs, the Eagle simply couldn't match a set of our M-60s in the bass department - on that speaker. Different speakers might and will get different results. If you sold our gear, you would know how important getting the right match is. For this reason, I suspect that you didn't sell our gear at all. At best, my suspicion is that you had a trade-in and simply didn't know how to show the amp off in its best light. None of the ARC stuff of that period could really play the bass right; IMO it didn't have the bandwidth needed (full power to 2 Hz). This is easy to suss: what dealership did you work for? |
@dover +1 Words matter....whether they are true or not, once written they become real. People have a responsibility here when they post - keep in mind the impact on other's livelihood. |
IMPORTANT NOTE TO ALL >>>READ THIS POST BY OP After nearly throwing the LYRA DELOS in the garbage, a swap out of phono preamps have vindicated this fine cartridge. The BAT VK P12 phono preamp has transformed the LYRA into a game changer. I retract all previous statements about this Cartridge other than it I do believe it sounds best with tubes or EXTREMELY high end solid state with FET's. Music now floats effortlessly without grain, without harshness and full of detail. The Lyra tracks beautifully and is nearly as quiet as digital( no clicks and pops). jeffvegas07-14-2021 1:06pm Report this What a fiasco. Bagged the Lyra Delos for days, tells us he has forgotten more than most of us have ever known about audio, apparently used to sell audio gear. Perhaps @jeffvegas you could offer a sincere apology to @jcarr for the 100's of thousands of folk who will read your ill advised synopsis of the Lyra Delos, probably costing him sales in a very tough shrinking market where anyone who produces audio products should be encouraged, not have their products unfairly derided. It might be in the best interests and fairness for Lyra if you asked the moderators to delete this thread altogether. In fairness to you @jeffvegas at least you have admitted the mistakes made, |
