LSA Voyager GAN Amplifier

@hifi59

Having lived with the V now for well over 6 months, and prior to it almost 2 years with Rics excellent EVS1200, both require repositioning of the speakers and my listening position. It sounds to me like you need to be closer to the speakers. I’ve played CSN, The Eagles, Trio: Dolly, Linda, and Emily and all are properly positioned and in the room with me

Why do audio designers listen to the equipment they build before putting it on the market, could it be because measurements don't tell the whole story.

I saw the ASR review today and was surprised. I listened to

the new Voyager for 2 weeks and thought it did many things well.

Walter will address whatever may need addressing I am sure.

GaN ain't going away. My early prediction.

"your ears are the final qc in the chain" 

Quite so, which is why ears are not test equipment. Ears appreciate/evaluate quality and test equipment measures quantity.

"your ears are the final qc in the chain"  That is exactly what audio is about (that's why there's many flavors of ice cream too) and hearing and not liking something is not a bad thing.  Too many ultracrepidarian people in the thread never leads to a resolution as they have no interest in actual experience and no point in debating when their premise is entirely based on flawed information.  If one buys a package of 9V batteries and then measures one at 7 volts and proclaims the brand sucks it is more or less like sticking your hand out the window and feeling wet and assume that it is raining when it may have been birds flying overhead and doing their business.  To each their own.  

To @ricevs point, your ears are the final qc in the chain. Even my video calibrator with all his expensive instrumentation, uses his eyes for final settings. It's no different with audio. There is more to audio than measuring equipment can show. For example, intensity, density or projection. Some amps with excellent specs have a capacity to project sound into the room than others with excellent specs. I found this out when I compared a Class A/AB to a Gan class D. Both measure well and the Gan costs almost twice the price. The a/b simply sounded better to my ears because of how it projected sound into the room. I found this to be crucial in order to get more involved in the music. The Gan amp had all the elements of an excellent amp, spec wise, but in the end it just wasn't projecting the music into the room in the same manner despite it being the more powerful of the two. The sum of the parts didn't add up in the end. There was almost no connection to the music, even though it was a clean sound. Test measurements simply don't measure this sort of thing. So in the end, my ears and my connection to the music took priority at  and the class A/B was the better of the two without question mainly due to intensity, density and projection. 

I talk about the AHB2 monos and the Voyager on a lot of posts on this thread. Stock and EVS modded Voyager,

BTW - The Voyager is a very good amp and the measurements from ASR does not change my opinion on thata.

I did not even use the XLR 's so had no idea one was defective.  Again I just wanted to know how it measured vs other  AMPs. Does anyone have a listening experience of this amp vs the Benchmark ABH2  which measures well and some like the sound? 

Tweakie Ric says trust your ears but what he really means is trust his ears because only he knows what sounds better and best. All his money making self promoting tweaks that take an amp to an 11 are all done without any basis in objective reality- he preaches "everything makes a difference" yet nothing he does can be measured- just "trust him" and his magic ears that everything he thinks is an improvement will be an improvement to all.

Yes, experiments have been done which show that certain measurements can in fact be indicative of the perception of sound. Certain distortion harmonics are generally preferable over others, for example. The job of an amplifier is to reproduce the input at the output as accurately as possible, only larger. Measurements provide an indication as to whether or not the amp is doing it's job. Some people can tolerate or even prefer certain distortions, others want an amp that delivers the input as accurately as possible. Tastes differ but the only people that claim measurements are meaningless and their golden ear is the only arbiter of truth are usually those trying to sell something, like Tweakie Ric.

 

Isn't there findings audible, and is it possible/probable that there was an issue with this amp, and shouldn't they have inquired to LSA? 

People who fail to grasp this crucial point are perpetually puzzled and unable to answer the simplest question: If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it does it make a sound? This is not a trick question. The answer is NO! The tree falling vibrates the air. Vibrations in air are not sounds. Human beings hear sounds. Microphones do not. 

Absolutely correct. Ironically (or even tragically) Ethan Winer in the opening chapter of his book 'The Audio Expert' claims that the answer is 'Yes'. So much for audio experts!

abraxalito

Nonsense, ears are enjoyment equipment. If you want tests, use man-made test equipment.

Correct, amps need test and measurements and all the laws of electronics the best applied combination of all three which will make them work at their best, without them you have a serious pile of junk!!

Andy

You are of course correct. Literally. Sound literally cannot be measured. This is just a fact. But it is a fact many of us miss because we confuse and conflate sound with pressure waves.

Pressure waves we can measure. This is literally what we measure with dB, pressure waves. When pressure waves reach a human ear they can sometimes be perceived as sound. Sometimes, because frequency or amplitude may fall outside human perception. But this is the key to understanding, hearing sounds is a human psychological perception. Physical measurement of pressure waves is not.

People who fail to grasp this crucial point are perpetually puzzled and unable to answer the simplest question: If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it does it make a sound? This is not a trick question. The answer is NO! The tree falling vibrates the air. Vibrations in air are not sounds. Human beings hear sounds. Microphones do not. 

This is so obvious, it should be Audio 101. Instead, look how many pretend to be audiophiles while not even understanding this most basic concept. 

Sorry, you cannot know how something sounds by measuring it.  You have to listen......the ear knows what sounds good.........this is the best test.  Yes, you can get measurements out of a machine....and they have some use in audio.  But they do not tell you how it sounds.  Very different from drag racing......drag racing is power, weight, traction, gearing and drag.....you can measure all those things and make a car via these specs and it will make the quarter mile exactly as you calculate.  Audio is nothing like that......most things that change the sound....CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT be measured.  So, the only way to know which amp gets down the quarter mile the fastest is to listen in your own system versus another amp......that is the only way to test it.

One thing I have learned in audio, whenever an audiophile says he can't hear, believe him. No matter what anyone else says abraxalito, I believe you. 

Our ears are the best test equipment known to man.

Nonsense, ears are enjoyment equipment. If you want tests, use man-made test equipment.

So, you look at the layout and you see sonic failings?  What, the AC cable is kinda close to one input cable?  How much sonic degradation will that do?  Can you quantify it?  Did you move the input cable an inch or so farther away and then heard nirvana?  This is all the ASR people have is measurements.....and cables that are theoretically not perfectly tied up.  No listening......just bad mouthing. 

The only thing that really matters is how something sounds.  What matters to many is being right........and making things wrong.  A much higher vibe is to make things right.....to praise....to uplift....to care.....to be truly helpful....to what people really want.  What do you want?  To be happy?  or be right? 

Here are three facts:

1. The only people who knows how something sounds are those that listen.

2. Most things that make a sonic difference CANNOT be measured.....therefore making a lot of measurements next to worthless.....I am not saying ALL measurements have little meaning......but a lot of them.

3. Yes, pure Love is beyond this dream world.....the world of illusions. This is who we are.....this is the most bestest fact of all. Blessings to all. May you find good sound but mostly may you feel the love and joy that you are and make a difference in this world....Be Happy. The right/wrong game is history......step into the world of now....the world of infinite possibilities where.....yes, ALL your dreams come true. Embrace yourself.....embrace each other......hug the universe......for that is who you are.

Facts, not dreams. Love Andy

Actually, it is to inform.....to tell the truth of what I know....to help people get better sound.  What is your motivation for posting?

With my mods they would be even more the same.....and better.

Let face it, this is the only reason you're posting. Love Andy

Well, you are right.....everything can be heard (to some degree).....however, Andypandy acts if if the measurements make it a no no amp....without listening. If you were to change the value of the filter and add feedback so it looked better....it would certainly sound different.....and maybe not as good. This is the real point. Please listen first......then measure and see if what you measure has any correlation to the sound. ASR never seriously listens to anything.......and since it has never.... I mean never been proven that a better measuring amp or whatever sounds better.....than what is the point of their existence.....except to be right. Of course, the modules in the LSA/Peachtree were designed by very competent engineers using test equipment (which includes listening tests).....Our ears are the best test equipment known to man.

kuribo

+👍

I’ve found nearly every time, the ones that poohbah measurements are usually the ones that have no idea how to read or understand them.

Let’s face it, you wouldn’t touch a piece of equipment that wasn’t designed and built using tests and measurements Love Andy

Bought the amp,  Just wanted it tested. Sorry, the results offended but as the owner of the amp, I  wanted to know what it looked like. If the measurements had been great everyone would be doing high 5's.  Chill

"The small deviations due to filter implementation cannot be heard. "

-Tweakie Ric


Wait, you can hear the differences between solder, caps, resistors, fuses, hard wired speaker wires vs binding posts, etc., etc., ad nauseam, but you can’t hear the differences due to filter implementations?

Be careful, you might be hurting your nonstop self-serving self-promotion.

With my mods they would be even more the same.....and better.

Ahaha! now the reason for all the angst comes out, someone stepped on someone’s tweaking turf. Love Andy

Yes, just ignore....another measurements are everything guy.  The Peachtree is the exact same amp....just in a different chassis, different jacks and wire.  With my mods they would be even more the same.....and better.

Your TROLL buddy TIMING from ASR only has 1 Post on Audiogon and he just signed up in the last 2 days. Funny how you both came out of the woodwork at the same exact time about the same exact Amplifier.

If they can properly run Scintillas

Not with this kind of rising distortion in the upper mids highs into 4ohms, as with the Scintillas, this distortion will be even worse from 300hz up . Doesn't matter what spin ricevs likes to put on it.

Andy

Apogee Scintilla impedance.

http://www.lippaudio.org/old/MySystems/Scintilla/impedance.html

A comparison with the Peachtree, which apparently shares a lot of the innards, would have been instructive.

The rising measured distortion is due to the feedback used (very low feedback)......and has very little to do with the frequency response variations with load at 20K. The bottom line is you need to listen to something to know how REALLY low distortion it is........a single part (that is not measureable) can make more audible distortion than any single measurement. Everything makes a difference. Listen first.....then you will actually know something.

Sorry but you were the one that jumped on timing3435 for presenting the bench tests link on this threads subject amp.  Why don’t you/we stay on topic? Thanks Andy

Andy...Why dont you list all your gear in your profile? I am sure we will all be in AWE of your near perfect measuring components.  Waiting for you to tell us that the Dac in an OPPO 205 is as good as the ones found in TOTL Esoteric/DCS/MSB like the rest of the penny pinching audiophiles on ASR do.

You need to understand that the switching noise filter/s gives you the fr vaiations. Where the load dependancey distortions here are comming from the amps output stage, at 4ohms 5khz 10khz 15khz have fast rising distortion after only 10watts!!! .

Thanks Andy

The output filter and the feedback system around it form the ability to see the load.....its a system.....load dependancy is because of the filter and the feedback. Yes, it would be nice if it looked better.......but does it make the sound bad? No. And what do you mean "distortion"?.....What distortion are you hearing because of the minor frequency rise or fall?  And even what distortion do you measure because of the minor rise or fall?

Sorry, you are acting as if they know anything about sound......they don't.  The small deviations due to filter implementation cannot be heard. 

 

Sorry but you have it wrong, it's not about filter variation, it's about load dependancy distortion. Thanks Andy

Sorry, you are acting as if they know anything about sound......they don't.  The small deviations due to filter implementation cannot be heard.  As to distortion.....the high distortion was noted on one channel because it was not properly working.  As far as the distortion figures in general.....they are not as low as some because they use less feedback.  THEY did this on purpose.  You must listen.....to know what sounds best.  This module was tweaked by a group of serious audiophiles........to sound great.....not to be the best measuring amp in the world (the only thing ASR wants).

Comments from people who have not listened to something are just that....comments.   They have no truth.  Truth in audio is what you hear.  Did you listen to the amp?  How does it sound?  That is what I want to know.....and I do know what is sounds like....because I heard it.

Quoting anything from ASR is like quoting someone about space travel when all they have done is drive the the store.  They no nothing about sound.  They only know how to use a measurement tool.....very sad.

Ric when an amp changes it’s rolloff to peaking up like because of load difference, there’s more than just FR involved, it’s a large distortion devatition as well which is not very good, as stated

Quote:

"Lots of money is left on the table here in many areas from frequency response load dependency to high amount of distortion."

Thanks Andy

Ric - it (your modded Voyager) sure does sound great.  I've been swapping in RCAs (vs. the XLRs and as I've noted to you my main system is bigger pain vs. what most people deal with) for movies from the HT receiver and I might even go back to RCAs (I just re-calibrated the HT levels a couple of days back and watched a couple of movies - if I use the RCAs my Modwright preamp defaults to HT Bypass when off I won't have to swap a thing).

I own two of the products measured by ASR (Voyager and Class D Audio mini GaN amplifier) and my friend owns the Apollon Audio IcePower in the shallow depth case.  So I have hands on experience with those products.  Before the Voyager, I was using the EVS 1200 for music and the mini GaN for HT (I've since moved that amp to a system with GR Research N3 speakers to drive the left and right channel fed via a Marantz 5010 receiver - it is a guest bedroom system).

I can tell anyone that while I've not measured the mini GaN amp, it has plenty of power.  It drove my Thiel 3.7s (not an easy load - just Google Thiel CS 3.7 impedance) in a large room with ease.  In fact, I one point I had a Bryston 14BSST (which is rated at 900W into 4 ohms) and it (the mini GaN drove them better for HT (did not try it for music in the main system but did in a secondary system (B&W P6s) vs. the Bryston.  As a side note, the 14BSST I had was the 15 amp version (I got that version as I did not have a 20 amp circuit in the old house) vs. the 20 amp 14BSST (which they made for low impedance speakers).  When Brystom went to the squared and cubed series, they just made 15 amp versions of those amps (as with the change in circuitry they must have found it drove speakers the former version had diffuculty with).

Longtime A'goner here, and I generally just lurk, but I feel compelled to defend the LSA 350 GaN amp. I've only had it for a few days and it is far from broken in, but it is a spectacular unit. I purchased it after considering a wide range of amps to replace my Parasound Halo A21 which bit the dust after 15 years of service. the GaN sent my otherwise awesome Wyred4Sound SX-1000R's to my HT room. ASR has its uses, but it is far from Holy Writ. They clearly received a faulty unit. I can only comment on mine, and it sounds superb. 

Andypandy,

Look closely at the graph.......these divisions are one half db.  At 10K....where MAYBE you could hear a difference......at 8 ohms it is .2db high........at 4 ohms it is .3db down.  You can hear that?  Can anyone hear that?.....don't think so.  Usually it takes a half a db for someone to notice a gain change.  The Oppo volume control on the 205 player had one half db steps......and you could barely hear it.......and that was changineg the gain of all the music.....not just at 10K.

The particular amp that was reviewed was obviously not functioning properly.  All of us who have listened to this amp via balanced inputs would have noticed the difference in gain (10 db.....and the distortion difference).

So, you have a broken amp and a test that tells nothing about how the amp sounds. .....and of course, ASR does no listening tests.  If someone else sent him another Voyager amp it would not have that gain/distortion issue.  The Voyager amps I have had here work perfectly....same gain on both channels....measured and listening wise.  A seriously good sounding amplifier.

As I noted here - https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=179033.msg1882290#msg1882290   "There are all kinds of skill levels when using a tool of any kind.  It is always better when the people with the most skills use the same tool.  Pros always make it look easy and that's why in many cases even when I have tools for something I can do, I call a real pro."  Knowing how something sounds requires listening.  I've owned a bunch of amps (Class A/AB as well as Class D) and it's easy knowing what something really sounds like when one has lived with them long term and listened to the same music (and I've posted about my speakers many times and their impedance measurements, which also can be found as measured by real pros from major audio magazines and no need to post it again here in response to a worthless audio website - I also will not be waiting up on an upcoming holiday for a visit from Santa and don't need to re-post about that either - whatever one enjoys - go ahead and enjoy).

Measurements tell a lot, It does not look good to me.

If you have a 4ohm load then it’s going to sound rolled off in the highs, compared to if you have an 8ohm load, then it'll sound hot in the highs

And then there’s the terrible designed balanced input gain and noise difference, rca was fine.

Thanks Andy

ASR review: what a crock! 93 people didn’t like it at all. When the hell did 93 people get one to report negatively? Down right slander

I wouldn't go by anything ASR says about anything.  They reviewed the Class D Audio mini GaN amp and found "I had trouble getting the amplifier to function initially. It would simply not output anything."  Then magically the amp worked later.  The case of the mini GaN amp is magnetic and perhaps interfered with his initial try or it was the cheap connectors (I have one and noted the cheap connectors and magnetic case in a review elsewhere - in the system where I currently have it, which is basically a guest bedroom, I don't think the connectors are of as good quality as a Marantz 5010 receiver I have in the system as I couldn't get the high level connectors to a sub and speaker connectors working on one channel - was fine when I connected the sub to the receiver pre-outs).

It is hysterical that people even follow that site.  I have a friend who bought the Apollon Audio IcePower amp in the narrow depth case they reviewed.  ASR mentioned the case - "The top and rear plates are to blame. I have no idea about the metal used, but it is clearly not rigid/solid enough."  Whatever he said about the case is BS.  Yes it is not a Bryston or Modwright or the case one would find in an expensive amp.  ASR seems to have issues that from personal experience just don't exist.  It is either the worst luck in the world or an agenda of some sort.

Agreed! ASR reviews are of little use usually. However, in this particular ASR review the amp had real build quality issues. At least worth a read. One XLR output was not operating properly.

ASR....Where people trash everything based solely on measurements without ever actually listening to the product itself. A Steve Huff Review has more integrity than anything Ive ever read on that forum. Where Bottom Feeders go to trash stuff they cant afford en masse to make themselves feel better.