LSA Voyager GAN Amplifier

The rising measured distortion is due to the feedback used (very low feedback)......and has very little to do with the frequency response variations with load at 20K. The bottom line is you need to listen to something to know how REALLY low distortion it is........a single part (that is not measureable) can make more audible distortion than any single measurement. Everything makes a difference. Listen first.....then you will actually know something.

A comparison with the Peachtree, which apparently shares a lot of the innards, would have been instructive.

If they can properly run Scintillas

Not with this kind of rising distortion in the upper mids highs into 4ohms, as with the Scintillas, this distortion will be even worse from 300hz up . Doesn't matter what spin ricevs likes to put on it.

Andy

Apogee Scintilla impedance.

http://www.lippaudio.org/old/MySystems/Scintilla/impedance.html

Your TROLL buddy TIMING from ASR only has 1 Post on Audiogon and he just signed up in the last 2 days. Funny how you both came out of the woodwork at the same exact time about the same exact Amplifier.

Yes, just ignore....another measurements are everything guy.  The Peachtree is the exact same amp....just in a different chassis, different jacks and wire.  With my mods they would be even more the same.....and better.

With my mods they would be even more the same.....and better.

Ahaha! now the reason for all the angst comes out, someone stepped on someone’s tweaking turf. Love Andy

"The small deviations due to filter implementation cannot be heard. "

-Tweakie Ric


Wait, you can hear the differences between solder, caps, resistors, fuses, hard wired speaker wires vs binding posts, etc., etc., ad nauseam, but you can’t hear the differences due to filter implementations?

Be careful, you might be hurting your nonstop self-serving self-promotion.

Bought the amp,  Just wanted it tested. Sorry, the results offended but as the owner of the amp, I  wanted to know what it looked like. If the measurements had been great everyone would be doing high 5's.  Chill

kuribo

+👍

I’ve found nearly every time, the ones that poohbah measurements are usually the ones that have no idea how to read or understand them.

Let’s face it, you wouldn’t touch a piece of equipment that wasn’t designed and built using tests and measurements Love Andy

Well, you are right.....everything can be heard (to some degree).....however, Andypandy acts if if the measurements make it a no no amp....without listening. If you were to change the value of the filter and add feedback so it looked better....it would certainly sound different.....and maybe not as good. This is the real point. Please listen first......then measure and see if what you measure has any correlation to the sound. ASR never seriously listens to anything.......and since it has never.... I mean never been proven that a better measuring amp or whatever sounds better.....than what is the point of their existence.....except to be right. Of course, the modules in the LSA/Peachtree were designed by very competent engineers using test equipment (which includes listening tests).....Our ears are the best test equipment known to man.

With my mods they would be even more the same.....and better.

Let face it, this is the only reason you're posting. Love Andy

Actually, it is to inform.....to tell the truth of what I know....to help people get better sound.  What is your motivation for posting?

Facts, not dreams. Love Andy

Here are three facts:

1. The only people who knows how something sounds are those that listen.

2. Most things that make a sonic difference CANNOT be measured.....therefore making a lot of measurements next to worthless.....I am not saying ALL measurements have little meaning......but a lot of them.

3. Yes, pure Love is beyond this dream world.....the world of illusions. This is who we are.....this is the most bestest fact of all. Blessings to all. May you find good sound but mostly may you feel the love and joy that you are and make a difference in this world....Be Happy. The right/wrong game is history......step into the world of now....the world of infinite possibilities where.....yes, ALL your dreams come true. Embrace yourself.....embrace each other......hug the universe......for that is who you are.

So, you look at the layout and you see sonic failings?  What, the AC cable is kinda close to one input cable?  How much sonic degradation will that do?  Can you quantify it?  Did you move the input cable an inch or so farther away and then heard nirvana?  This is all the ASR people have is measurements.....and cables that are theoretically not perfectly tied up.  No listening......just bad mouthing. 

The only thing that really matters is how something sounds.  What matters to many is being right........and making things wrong.  A much higher vibe is to make things right.....to praise....to uplift....to care.....to be truly helpful....to what people really want.  What do you want?  To be happy?  or be right? 

Our ears are the best test equipment known to man.

Nonsense, ears are enjoyment equipment. If you want tests, use man-made test equipment.

One thing I have learned in audio, whenever an audiophile says he can't hear, believe him. No matter what anyone else says abraxalito, I believe you. 

Sorry, you cannot know how something sounds by measuring it.  You have to listen......the ear knows what sounds good.........this is the best test.  Yes, you can get measurements out of a machine....and they have some use in audio.  But they do not tell you how it sounds.  Very different from drag racing......drag racing is power, weight, traction, gearing and drag.....you can measure all those things and make a car via these specs and it will make the quarter mile exactly as you calculate.  Audio is nothing like that......most things that change the sound....CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT be measured.  So, the only way to know which amp gets down the quarter mile the fastest is to listen in your own system versus another amp......that is the only way to test it.

You are of course correct. Literally. Sound literally cannot be measured. This is just a fact. But it is a fact many of us miss because we confuse and conflate sound with pressure waves.

Pressure waves we can measure. This is literally what we measure with dB, pressure waves. When pressure waves reach a human ear they can sometimes be perceived as sound. Sometimes, because frequency or amplitude may fall outside human perception. But this is the key to understanding, hearing sounds is a human psychological perception. Physical measurement of pressure waves is not.

People who fail to grasp this crucial point are perpetually puzzled and unable to answer the simplest question: If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it does it make a sound? This is not a trick question. The answer is NO! The tree falling vibrates the air. Vibrations in air are not sounds. Human beings hear sounds. Microphones do not. 

This is so obvious, it should be Audio 101. Instead, look how many pretend to be audiophiles while not even understanding this most basic concept. 

abraxalito

Nonsense, ears are enjoyment equipment. If you want tests, use man-made test equipment.

Correct, amps need test and measurements and all the laws of electronics the best applied combination of all three which will make them work at their best, without them you have a serious pile of junk!!

Andy

People who fail to grasp this crucial point are perpetually puzzled and unable to answer the simplest question: If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it does it make a sound? This is not a trick question. The answer is NO! The tree falling vibrates the air. Vibrations in air are not sounds. Human beings hear sounds. Microphones do not. 

Absolutely correct. Ironically (or even tragically) Ethan Winer in the opening chapter of his book 'The Audio Expert' claims that the answer is 'Yes'. So much for audio experts!

Isn't there findings audible, and is it possible/probable that there was an issue with this amp, and shouldn't they have inquired to LSA? 

Tweakie Ric says trust your ears but what he really means is trust his ears because only he knows what sounds better and best. All his money making self promoting tweaks that take an amp to an 11 are all done without any basis in objective reality- he preaches "everything makes a difference" yet nothing he does can be measured- just "trust him" and his magic ears that everything he thinks is an improvement will be an improvement to all.

Yes, experiments have been done which show that certain measurements can in fact be indicative of the perception of sound. Certain distortion harmonics are generally preferable over others, for example. The job of an amplifier is to reproduce the input at the output as accurately as possible, only larger. Measurements provide an indication as to whether or not the amp is doing it's job. Some people can tolerate or even prefer certain distortions, others want an amp that delivers the input as accurately as possible. Tastes differ but the only people that claim measurements are meaningless and their golden ear is the only arbiter of truth are usually those trying to sell something, like Tweakie Ric.

 

I did not even use the XLR 's so had no idea one was defective.  Again I just wanted to know how it measured vs other  AMPs. Does anyone have a listening experience of this amp vs the Benchmark ABH2  which measures well and some like the sound? 

I talk about the AHB2 monos and the Voyager on a lot of posts on this thread. Stock and EVS modded Voyager,

BTW - The Voyager is a very good amp and the measurements from ASR does not change my opinion on thata.

To @ricevs point, your ears are the final qc in the chain. Even my video calibrator with all his expensive instrumentation, uses his eyes for final settings. It's no different with audio. There is more to audio than measuring equipment can show. For example, intensity, density or projection. Some amps with excellent specs have a capacity to project sound into the room than others with excellent specs. I found this out when I compared a Class A/AB to a Gan class D. Both measure well and the Gan costs almost twice the price. The a/b simply sounded better to my ears because of how it projected sound into the room. I found this to be crucial in order to get more involved in the music. The Gan amp had all the elements of an excellent amp, spec wise, but in the end it just wasn't projecting the music into the room in the same manner despite it being the more powerful of the two. The sum of the parts didn't add up in the end. There was almost no connection to the music, even though it was a clean sound. Test measurements simply don't measure this sort of thing. So in the end, my ears and my connection to the music took priority at  and the class A/B was the better of the two without question mainly due to intensity, density and projection. 

"your ears are the final qc in the chain"  That is exactly what audio is about (that's why there's many flavors of ice cream too) and hearing and not liking something is not a bad thing.  Too many ultracrepidarian people in the thread never leads to a resolution as they have no interest in actual experience and no point in debating when their premise is entirely based on flawed information.  If one buys a package of 9V batteries and then measures one at 7 volts and proclaims the brand sucks it is more or less like sticking your hand out the window and feeling wet and assume that it is raining when it may have been birds flying overhead and doing their business.  To each their own.  

"your ears are the final qc in the chain" 

Quite so, which is why ears are not test equipment. Ears appreciate/evaluate quality and test equipment measures quantity.

I saw the ASR review today and was surprised. I listened to

the new Voyager for 2 weeks and thought it did many things well.

Walter will address whatever may need addressing I am sure.

GaN ain't going away. My early prediction.

Why do audio designers listen to the equipment they build before putting it on the market, could it be because measurements don't tell the whole story.

@hifi59

Having lived with the V now for well over 6 months, and prior to it almost 2 years with Rics excellent EVS1200, both require repositioning of the speakers and my listening position. It sounds to me like you need to be closer to the speakers. I’ve played CSN, The Eagles, Trio: Dolly, Linda, and Emily and all are properly positioned and in the room with me

Why do audio designers listen to the equipment they build before putting it on the market, could it be because measurements don't tell the whole story.

Measurements do tell the whole story- the objective story. Designers listen for the same reason chefs taste their food before serving, despite having used a recipe for years- final qc- does the sound/taste meet their standards.

Peoples tastes differ. An amp that performs well objectively will not suit everyone's taste- some like certain kinds of distortion. Some listeners aren't as descriminating, etc. Some amps don't play well with all ancillary equipment.

The only one who can judge the subjective quality of a meal or amp is the end user and the reason people don't all agree is simple- tastes differ. This endless debate measurements vs ears is really quite meaningless on an end user basis. Some people simply want an amp with state of the art measured performance, others want an effects box. To each his own.

The trouble with this kind of thinking is there is no reality to it. What you are saying is that if an amp measures great then it is neutral and if it does not measure great it is colored.....this is pure BS. The objective measurements just show numbers.....they have little to do with the sound of an amp. You can take a great measuring amplifier and put it on a rubbery feet and it sounds rubbery......and still measures the same. You can put a junk power cord on it and it sounds junky. You can change the output connector to some junk connector (or maybe it already has junk ones on there) and you get the junk sound of the connector. None or these things or a million other things inside the amp that make audible differences, including damping are measureable......this is the flaw in your thinking. Objectivists say things like what you did because they do not listen to components.....let alone to footers, cables, jacks, wires, solder, resistors, caps, damping, etc. into infinity. They just look at numbers on a machine and call it a day. It certainly simplifies buying equipment. But you will not get the best sound that way. You have to listen to things and compare. Once you realize that "everything makes a sonic difference" then that kind of black and white mentality is seen for what it is.......words meaning nothing. Most people in high end audio are subjectivists.....we listen and decide what flavors we want....but a small minority do the opposite....they do not listen and just buy stuff for specs......they worship specs.....sorry...specs are not sound. However, some of these objectivists go around to forums and threads and tell everyone their "truth".....and to not be fooled by all this "snake oil". They wave their engineering 101 bible in the air and claim to know something. The only thing in audio to know is how something sounds.....this is real knowledge. If you are not willing to listen and find out the SONIC TRUTH then you have your head in a hole in the sand. The real fun is discovering some little tweak that cost you nothing or practically nothing that improves your sound. This is the biggest rush of all. For instance...getting all your cables off the floor.....and you can use cardboard to do it.....way better imaging and purity.....and costs practically zero unless you buy expensive risers. Of course, there is no measured improvement with this tweak.

Happy listening, you holy beautiful beings. Heaven is now....Breath it in.

I certainly understand that some people are subjectivists but draw a line at trying certain things.....their brain just cannot get a handle on why a footer or whatever would make a difference.....but they do listen to components and compare the sound......so, it is not a black and white objectivists versus subjectivists game....there are infinite shades of it.......just like we all want to love and to be loved and be happy but we go about it in different ways. Follow YOUR highest excitement.....not someone elses.

The biggest sin, IMO, with the Voyager GAN amp is one of omission not commission.  It does not plumb the depths of the low frequencies with the grunt, heft and impact of your best Class A amps.  If you had a powered subwoofer of good quality that would probably be a band aid of good quality.

At some point I might experiment with adding large banks of low impedance capacitors to the power supply along with modified Wima bypass caps.  Trouble is, the brand of caps I want to try is backordered almost a year.  Adding a bank of low impedance caps can increase dynamics and slam.  You would need 4 sets of caps....since it is dual mono and plus and minus supply.....but there is plenty of room inside.  We shall see.  

What you are saying is that if an amp measures great then it is neutral and if it does not measure great it is colored.....this is pure BS

If an amp outputs an exact version of the input only larger, then it is adding nothing to the input signal and is indeed a neutral wire with gain. If the output signal deviates substantially from the input, it is not an amplifier, it is an effects box. That isn’t BS, it’s simple physics and common sense.

What is "good sound"? There is no absolute definition- it's whatever the listener likes! You parade around like you have some sort of secret to universal listening bliss when you are selling the unobtainable. Engineers and scientists have established what objective performance demands- nothing added, nothing removed, from the input signal. All you do is add coloration and call it "improvement". It may sound better to some, but it's just sugar to the ears, not high fidelty to the input signal. That is if all your nutty tweaks actually produce anything audible at all, which itself is a major stretch of reality.

You can make all sorts of wild and crazy claims, wave your hands and shout all you want about how all your unsubstantiated, untested, unmeasureable, subjective opinions are the "truth" but they are nothing real- they only exist in your tweakie little world of one. And that would be fine except you are constantly preaching and promoting your self serving dogma as reality in an effort to drum up business. You are the definition of a snake oil salesman.

The biggest sin, IMO, with the Voyager GAN amp is one of omission not commission.  It does not plumb the depths of the low frequencies with the grunt, heft and impact of your best Class A amps.  If you had a powered subwoofer of good quality that would probably be a band aid of good quality.

Totally agree with this comment. I sold the modded Voyager and kept my CODA #8 because I liked the low freq better on the CODA. The modded Voyager was better on top over the CODA. The stock Voyager was about the same as the CODA (if I remember correctly).

Ric - the thread is supposed to be about the Voyager amp and impressions.  The same in reverse would be true if the title of the thread was how does the Voyager amp measure and people chimed in about listening (would be rude).  Obviously, some people not only follow the Jim Jones of audio (and whatever flavor the 900 people who drank the Kool Aid or flavored drink came mixed with the Valium to get to the promised land or wherever) and that is the first issue.  The second issue is the thread title and anyone with any sort of manners would start there own thread and expouse whatever their lack of understanding is and anyone who likes the Kool Aid flavor can join in. 

I own two of the products (and as I noted a sample of one battery in a package that doesn't measure up to snuff is not scientific evidence of anything and there is lots of information if someone cares to read it about appropriate sample sizes in any scientific study) as well as significant experience with a third that a friend owns (all amplifiers) in which ASR has done their thing and I noted earlier it is either horrible luck or a problem with the way it is done.  Those measurements and observations about the case used in one product couldn't be more off the mark about the qualities about the amplifiers in question.  So there is no sense in responding to anything expoused.  The vast majority of people with real knowledge already know the situation.  It is noted in the Audio Circle thread I linked earlier as well as in various other places - e.g.  Reddit (the title listed below) and various other places - to me there is no harm for someone to live in an alternative reality as long as they do their thing and don't impede those of us who actually know what reality is.  Let them enjoy.

Kuribo,

The world of one.....(he he...we are all one....spiritually).....is actually the game you play.  According to you.....all "audiophile" cables, footers, tweaks, fuses, cable lifters, ground enhancers, grounding systems, component stands, etc......are unnecssary and therefore all companies selling these things are snake oil salesman.  Same would apply to any company that claims they put in a "better sounding part" in their latest version of their amp or whatever......so this would mean almost all high end audio companies are also snake oil salesman.  And all the godzillion of people who use these components and accessories are all duped and fooled by this world wide conspiracy to take our money.  So, we are all just gullible fools and all those people selling us these things are just laughing on the way to the bank.  What a fantasy world you live in.....You certainly cannot talk to hardly any other audiophile without immediately getting an eye brow lift.

It does not matter that I make a few dollars or millions of dollars doing what I love.  What matters is the truth.  The truth, that is shown when one listens.   Ego oil is way more hazardous to our health and well being than any audio tweak.  Love oil is what we all need and want.  I love you.....you are beautiful.....just the way you are.

I never said all audiophile products are unnecessary; only you are unnecessary. People can choose for themselves what sounds "best" to them. They don't need some self serving self interested guru peddling bs to them about what tweakie wire or rubber band sounds "best". Some people like 10 scoops of sugar in their coffee, others prefer it black. To each his own.

I know in your heart of hearts you love me. I think you are necessary. You are loved....you are magnificent......speaking of rubber bands......remember this song lyric?

"Like a rubber ball, I keep bouncing back to you.....bouncy bouncy." I will always love you....always.

The objective measurements just show numbers.....they have little to do with the sound of an amp.

This statement is false. People talk about the sonic signature of an amplifer- that is its distortion signature. The problem isn't that the 'objective measurements' have little to do with the sound- they have everything to do with it- the problem is that the important measurements are rarely published anywhere.

If you want to know what is needed to create an amp that sounds like music, here are the things you need to see:

less than 1% phase shift at 20Hz and 20KHz

the same harmonic distortion at all frequencies, not just 100Hz (as is typically measured).

Either one of two things- either you have the primary distortion components be the 2nd and 3rd such that they can mask the higher orders. or the distortion is well below 100dB down (keeping in mind that this is true even at 10-15KHz). Or both.

IM distortion must be low- 0.05% or less.

If you satisfy these specs, you'll have an amp that sounds very musical. And if the amp does not, you can forecast what it will sound like. But most of this information is never published.

While some measurements may bring some sonic bliss.....still most things you do to an amp (that cannot be measured) still change the sound.....in fact, an amp designed by anyone to have the distortion structure that Ralph says can sound blah, OK, good, very good or great depending on the implementation of a million different factors. Ralph thinks its mainly one factor.....to each his own. I play with the other million things and they all change/improve the sound. If you have ordinary binding posts on your amp....you have ordinary binding post sound.....no matter what the distortion reads. This is something I have spent over 40 years playing with. If you have a belief that these things that I say do not matter......then it does not matter how many years you have been making amps or whatever......you will still not have any real knowledge about the sound of parts and execution. Basic design is one thing.......how you implement it....is just as important. Designing and tweaking go hand in hand. One without the other is like being one handed. I have always been able to improve the sound of every component that I have ever had......not matter what the basic measurements.....and what I do.....does not make the measurments better. My customers for over 30 years agree. Most high end companies.....both measure and tweak after they measure......some do not. Believe what you want. I believe my ears.

Beauty if everywhere......joy is every breath. I hug you.....you are loved.

in fact, an amp designed by anyone to have the distortion structure that Ralph says can sound blah, OK, good, very good or great depending on the implementation of a million different factors.

 

True of any amp regardless. There will always be people with the above opinions about any piece of equipment. Thank you for once again sharing the obvious amidst more self promotion bs.

You can say what you want about ASR but at least they had the good sense to remove your noise from the signal.

kisses and hugs. What is so nice about Audiogon is that we allow different opinions (Including yours...we would not kick you off even though 95% of people here do not believe as you). ASR is a "believe as we do or we kick you off " forum. Really loving and open, wouldn’t you say......he he. May all be blessed.

ASR is the last stand of the objectivists.....really funny actually.  I hope they keep that hill and don't lose it to the ever charging subjectivists throwing their hand grenades of non measuring tweaks at them.  What fun all of this is.  I hope none of you take any of this seriously.  What is said here does not (to much) affect the happiness of the world......however, every word you say......does send out a ripple in the ocean of consciousness.  So, choose your reality carefully.  For whatever you put out....comes back to you and goes out to the whole world.  Joy is always present.  Be a smile millionaire, its free.

ASR is a "believe as we do or we kick you off " forum.

Only if you're a scammer that tweaks and asks for money without any tech info on what's being done to the owner's equipment, and how it effects in technical terms the sound and the specs.   Andy

Just your opinion.  What is your last and final word?  You certainly are not going to change your mind, nor I.   Has this not gone on long enough...or do you want to keep blasting?  My last word to you objectivists is this:

Love

Only if you're a scammer that tweaks and asks for money without any tech info on what's being done to the owner's equipment, and how it effects in technical terms the sound and the specs.   Andy

A lot of competent designers say there is a difference in capacitors that measure the same, but are made from different materials.