Looking to move to a Tube Integrated setup

I've got a Leben CS300F that I just love. Wonderful amp. Check out their lineup here https://lebenhifi.com/products.html. 

@jijoh123 do you have any local chapter audio folks around you within an hour or so from your city, town?

I ask because I've taken a few of my former amps over to other people's houses and try them, to help them get an idea on their speakers in their room. A few members here still do this, and it can be a quick way to learn differences. That's one thing I do like about smaller mono amps  weight split in halves at say 45-50lbs each vs big 90-100lb stereo amps, not so easy to move or pick up and take to other peoples places to try out. Last few times I did this, the people ended up ordering tube amps within a week, and they both had Class A/B solid state amps prior.  

PS Audio BHK 250's going for $4.2K.  Hybrid design. 

Never had a Rogue Power product but theie inline pre has been very enjoyable and they are a good company to work with as is PS Audio. 

Thanks @paradisecom I had an SLI-80 Signature with upgrades five years ago, reluctantly sold it to try some different SET amps, and a pair of ultralinear monoblock amps with more power with my speakers. 

Similar to the OP @jijoh123 I am reconsidering parting with one of my Class A SS amps and preamps to help fund a nice Tube integrated to swap in rotation every once in a while. Might be willing to look in the $6k range. Following along here. Thx 

I didn't.  I was just offering up a couple of other options that are somewhat comparable in specs, features, etc. for you to consider.

"@paradisecom You can also look at the Conrad Johnson CAV45 S2 or a used McIntosh MA2275 for other options."

By chance did you have a chance to try and compare either of these to your former Cary SLI-80 - If so, what did you like more about either of them, or in different ways?

+1 on the LTA Z40+ 

The PL Dialog Premium with KT150 tubes will drive your Moab's nicely.

And for sure the Aric Audio Transcend Push Pull with KT150's is a special amp that will also drive your speakers well. And a nice set of EL34 tubes will add more warmth to the sound of either amp.

I had a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP with KT150 and choice NOS 12AU7 and it is one unit I'm sorry I let go.

Now using LTA Z40+ and there is no comparison IMO.

Guttenberg called it the best integrated he ever reviewed and uses it as his reference. I would highly recommend if you can find a used unit in your price range.

I ran a SLI-80 as well.  Nice unit, built very well, great customer support, very customizable with different tube types/ brands, Triode/ Ultralinear switch, manual biasing and a remote.

The Rogue uses circuit boards where as the Cary is point-to-point wiring, if that matters.  Both are well-made units with great customer support and are American made.

I ended up selling the SLI-80 since it was just overkill for my home office.  I just run a little Decware Taboo (6wpc) and it does just about everything I need it to.

You can also look at the Conrad Johnson CAV45 S2 or a used McIntosh MA2275 for other options.

The best part about tube amps is the ability to customize the sound with different tube combinations.  Have fun!

I have a PL Dialogue Premium with new KT-120’s and a set of EL34. I prefer the warmer EL 34 sound.  It has been a great amp.  I’m considering selling due to developing tinnitus.  if you’re interested, let me know and we can discuss.

You’re in a high rent tube integrated district. Good for you!

There is MUCH more variability in the sound of tube gear than there is between high end solid state gear.  For my particular taste, there are many high-powered tube amps that I don't like--many sound hard and brittle and less "pleasant" than most solid state amps.  But, this variability means that, with a diligent search, one can find a suitable amp; it just takes a bit of effort.  I tend to like lower powered tube amps, but the concern being voiced here is with how difficult a load the Moab might be despite being relatively efficient.  I've only heard the Moab being driven by solid state amps, so I don't know how significant are the concerns raised above (I liked the speaker, by the way).

Still, it is probably worth your while to look at some low to medium powered tube amps.  I agree with the poster above who suggested the Audio Note Oto.  I really like the sound of that amp and it seems to work well with a wide variety of speakers.  The only big downside for my purposes is the lack of remote control of volume.  Audio Note also makes another very good sounding integrated in the Soro (6L6 tubes).

My favorite brand of integrated amps are models from Synthesis Audio (Italian).  In particular, I like their 40 watt A40 amp (pushpull KT 66 tubes) which includes a very good built in DAC and has remote control.  The bigger, and more expensive A100 (a quad of KT 66 per channel) is also very good and perhaps more suited for a demanding load.

I will say this and you are right no measurement of numbers will tell your ears what they are calibrating coming out of speakers in your own listening room..

I started with the Raven Audio Black Hawk for 45 day trial and what I heard changed me for ever with never owning tubes ..You can go to Audio store and listen and yes get basic concept but until it is in front of you that is the tell tale sign of tubes or solid state for you..And then this is just the start of your tube voyage..the good cables to gain little more sound detail and tube rolling will change everything you thought you heard ..You start buying Military tubes that will cost but the reward is worth it..No matter who you are you are always striving to hear a little more over few years after you get used to what you have...Its been a 5 year journey for me and I at 73 yrs old are at my max sound system ..

To clarify, he rectifier section is now solid state as opposed to the older models which were tube. I’m not an engineer, but have read that this is the difference.

Hi @jijoh123 yes they are a bit different. I owned a Rogue Atlas 3 paired with a Rogue RP1 pre amp. Pretty powerful combo, muscular for sure, I could have easily stuck with the set up. There was an audible hiss and hum though, I couldn’t ignore it. When I swapped in an NAD pre amp, quiet. Their tech support was great, gave me several ideas, ultimately the noise floor of the preamp was a bit to high and the noise was present with their preamp. 
I sold and bought the Cary. Little less power but my Volti Razz speakers are pretty sensitive, 96 to 99 db depending on who you listen to. So the decrease in power didn’t mean much. For me the ability to switch back and forth between UL and Triode mode is cool, depending on my mood. Also the rectifier section on the newer SLI80 makes it less of a syrupy overall sound, what I remember about Cary back in the day.

Honestly I don’t think you could go wrong choosing either.

No worries. There are a few of variations or optios,. I have a pair with a single HF driver only on each channel.

OK, sorry.

Assumed "Tekton Moabs with Be HF drivers" were the ones measured by SP.

DeKay

Was thinking about the SL80 unit. Looks similar to the Chronos Magnum, but different I assume. 

I would add the Cary SLI80HS. It's been around a long time, built like a tank, excellent customer support.. It has all the sweetness, finesse and grunt you could want. 80/40 WPC either in Triode or UL.  Easily found here or on USAM starting in the mid 2k, or buy direct from Cary, discounts often. I bought mine direct from Cary with most of the upgrades, only one i didn't choose was the binding post upgrade, which I regret not adding...

Mine is paired with similarly sensitive speaker, Volti Razz. It's a wonderful match. Gives me everything I want and desire.  

@jijoh123 I recalled this same recurring question about "which amplifier" to use with versions of the Tekton Moab in 2020. Impedance was the overarching concern. Link is below for your reference. 

The Moab owner determined his Moab speakers were truly running down in the 3 ohm range. This will take a capable amplifier to drive those drivers properly in order to evoke desired result. Most tube amps like 8+ohms loads. If you have the same version of the Moabs, maybe find an amp that can do 2ohms without breaking a sweat fwiw. Confirming your speaker impedance load matters here. Best of Luck.

https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1912637

jenglemann "Having dealt with some tube amp anomalies after installing the Tekton MOABS, I decided to measure the actual resistance and found mine to measure 3.1 ohms.
When I moved the speakers to the 2 ohm output terminal on the amplifier, it resolved the issue.
The amplifier manufacturer suggests not tapping for loads less than the output tap rating. Again, this is a tube amp. Might measure your MOABs to see what the actual load is on the amplifier. Also keeping in mind that the resistance can drop when being driven hard. This could be a factor in choosing a new amp.".

if your speakers are that efficient the amp that will beat everything else is the Audio Note UK OTO SE. You can get a phono version as well (the phonostage is MAGIC). 3k used should get you a nice example with good tubes. 7K is approx the retail price. Cheers!

As an alternative integrated tube amplifier, consider one of the Audiomats.  They start with Aloha, Arpege, Aria, Adagio, Opera, Solfège.  Here’s a link to their webpage

http://www.audiomat.fr/Amplificateurs~T-1-0-1

The North American rep is located in Canada, Pasqual Ravach.

i have lived with two of their integrated amplifiers, the Arpege and the Prelude Reference MKII for almost 25 years and they are wonderful products, really solid, utterly reliable and musically outstanding.   I think they are priced below their real value.  Check out any of their reviews and you will find them very positive.  They are sadly not well known in the US.

I don't disagree with that.  Measurements might help to predict certain aspects of music reproduction, but in the end the true test is your ears and the enjoyment you derive from your system.  Good luck on achieving your goals.

Thanks for the feedback Corelli. I appreciate your candor and passion. I mean not to offend, but at the end of the day, measurements and technical data aside, it really comes down to what it evokes in my heart and in my soul. Music for me is an emotional experience and not a clinical lab analysis. Music, both live and reproduced, speaks to my heart and my innermost feelings.

In fact I did but your description was a bit ambiguous. But that is not the point.

Much of the low impedance occurred with the bass drivers well below the crossover frequency. I suspect the bass drivers are very similar if not the same drivers.

In all likelihood  the measurements would in fact look similar when it comes to impedance and almost certainly it will dip below the nominal 4 ohm rating.

Didn’t mean to debate the point with you and just wanted to pass on some important considerations as you look for a new amp.

@dekay I stopped in reply, restarted, and missed your prior post, only saw the MA352 post above yours. Good to know - for crying out loud. We read ya, LOL :)

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@jijoh123 Long story, have a 50yr audiophile buddy who’s been through at least 8 different Decware, Cary, Inspire by Dennis Had SET 45 and 300B 2-8w amps, also owns Cary SLI-80 40wpc, and custom EL84 amps at 20w. Geeze, 5 others prior to this. He’s back to looking for a higher current SS integrated amp to better drive and control the drivers in his 96db 8ohm tube friendly speakers better. He listens at mid to lower listening levels. If it were me, I’d be excluding the 2-8w fleawatt tube SET amps for those speakers and 4ohm impedance. Been down this path myself, and the higher quality amps with real iron in them, both SS and Tube, made the most difference for me.

Are you into the more modern uber detail sound some like these days, or the softer and more plush laid back type of sound others crave? Live demos with your speakers is the best way if possible. Best of luck.

Corelli, To be clear, I do not own the full Be array Moab Matrix LX reviewed by Stereophile. I own a pair of the original Moabs with a single HF Be driver. Totally different unit, sound and measurements. Please pay attention to the original description.

AGAIN, read the review/measurements.  It is NOT a 4 ohm speaker.  At some frequencies it is just clearing 1 ohm!  

Amps need to control speakers, not the other way around.  If you pair a tubed amp with this speaker, the Moab will be exerting its will on the amp with very unpredictable results.  Nonlinear frequency response will be just one of those problems.

No way a dinky SET will drive those speakers. @atma-sphere has told me more than once that high sensitivity, full range passive speakers need some grunt even if the specs suggest otherwise. This same idea has been reinforced many times in reviews and on these forums. I'd want at least 50 watt/side of tube power. I do confess to occasional loud listening.

Impedance is 4 ohms

Agreed.  I enjoy both tubed and solid state systems, so no personal bias in that regard.

After looking at those measurements, I can't imagine a tube amp being happy driving this speakers incredibly low impedance.

Nothing wrong with wanting to try tubes--just pair it up with the right speaker.  The Moab Be is not that speaker IMO.  

For crying out LOUD...

Look @ the Stereophile review I linked and then come up with informed responses in regard to pairing the OP's speakers with a tube amplifier.

DeKay

If you are more use to to the dynamics of your SS or Class D amps driving your 98db efficiency speakers, it could be quite an initial change to your ears dropping to one of the 2-4w single ended amps suggested here.  It's not that you won't like it, for awareness, it is going to sound different, likely more billowy and plush and less punchy and dynamic comparatively to the amps you've tried so far.    

imo, the key here is trying a few different amps with your speakers. The recommendation to demo a few amps a with return policy might be worthwhile so you dont get stuck with something you don't like, and/or allowing the amp merry-go-round to continue through two or three more tube amps to get closer to what you are looking for.  

There are some tube amps that sound very close to solid state amps, clear, dynamic, yet lacking tubey characteristics you might be after - so its worth figuring out how to try a few different integrated tube amps or a separate tube preamp and separate tube amplifiers to match with your speakers. Or, maybe end up with a handful of different low watt single ended and higher power push pull amps in your stable for a while to try and narrow down different results and sounds you like more. I find taste varies from one person to the next about what sounds good to them.     

What impedance are your 98db speakers (4,6,8,16 ohm) etc?

@ghdprentice   Regarding AR in general, and the I50 specfically it seems like a downside is that you supposedly can't bias these amps yourself and are required to have a tech do the work. That may be fine if you have one in your locale but not optimal if you have to ship the amp every 2000 hours of tube replacement (I50). What has been your experience with this?

The Moab is not an easy load (per the Stereophile review) though is was measured as 93dB @ 2.83V.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/tekton-moab-be-loudspeaker

DeKay

McIntosh MA352

After many years (decades, really) of being a dedicated solid state guy, a few years ago, I took the plunge and picked up a Prima Luna Evo 300 Integrated Floyd. After about a year, I got curious, and rolled the very respectable stock 12AU7 tubes to NOS 1960s (for the signal pair) and 1970s (for the 4 gains) RCAs. I've been really happy with the tube front end / SS back end, and the sound with the NOS tubes is just sublime.

I know there are other, more rarified and more modest choices out there, but for me, the Prima Luna really hits the sweet spot, and represents a solid value for the money. Happy hunting!

With speakers at efficiency at 98dB I  would go low watt.

I run a 4 watt Decware with a 92db Ref 3A de Capos and the sound is amazing

my second system has a 2/6 watt Grommes PHI-26 with 97db Klipsch Quartets and damn does that sing. 

With your speakers you have lots of options for low watt tubes

Of the two, despite the beauty of the Ayon, I would go with the Prima Luna's. There are a lot of good points made by Kevin in that video. I've heard my friend's Prima Luna Mono Blocks on his JSE Infinite Slope Model II's which I helped him get/setup (I owned/loved mine for years), and on his current speakers which he prefers, I forget the maker, but they sound terrific, we both prefer tubes to his prior SS. 

Running them cool for long life combined with the adaptive auto-bias dream feature, makes me want one, my early Cayin has manual and dangerous internal bias adjusters. 

Spare tubes should always be on hand, you would only need a few, I gather that they will come with KT120's. As it is a major shift to Tube sound, I would encourage you to buy (now or eventually) a batch of EL34's, and compare them.

Break in new tubes: on, no input needed, just leave them on for around 60 hours is what Brent Jesse advised me to do.

You may want to consider a pre - owned Rogers High Fidelity tube integrated amp they offer direct w/ their full lifetime warranty. They offer a free home trial too. I compared their EHF 200 Mark II to the top Prima Luna & it was in a completely different class in every way & bought it. It’s big, heavy & built extremely well but most importantly sounds excellent! I have no experience w/ Ayon. 

With your budget you can probably go separate call Aric audio. My friend own MOAB he love his Aric gear.

Had a Cronus a number of years back, even with NOS preamp tubes it just sound solid state to me; may have been the KT90s power tubes which it came with at that time .

Maybe consider looking into the lineups of Line Magnetic , Trafomatic and Finale Audio as well.  In my main system the speakers are Daedalus Argo V2s 97db 5ohm flat impedance and drive them easily with either a Line Magnetic 518IA (newer model is 845IA) - 845 power tubes 22wpc , or a Finale Audio 7189Mk2 - EL84M or 7189A power tubes 22wpc (I also at times use a Modwright tube pre and ss power amp)

I have a Ayon triton Evo and completely love it. I only have one recommendation and that is go with KT 170 tubes. 

I have to second the Rogue Cronus. I have been enjoying the sound that I get from it paired with my Klipsch Heresy. Just dropped in some NOS signal tubes from Vintage tube and it seemed to stabilize the highs. There is certainly a rabbit hole to go down once you decide you want to start tube rolling.

This Rogue is another one to consider!!

http://rogueaudio.com/Products_Cronus_Magnum.htm

I just traded up a Raven Audio Osprey for a Reflection.... The Osprey produced musical sound  stage that I did not think I could hear any more from in 5 years of ownership...But know Raven has that Osprey and sure you could purchase for good price...With the right tubes that Osprey was sure nice to turn on for the 5 years of ownership..The Reflection just adds to the Osprey in ways I could not even dream I could hear more coming out of the tracks of music I have listened to for years..But it comes at a price.. Wish you well in your search for musical detail you are looking for..

@ghdprentice +1  I have listened to the ARC I-50 and if I were going to go with an integrated set up, this would be #1 on my list.  ARC is just in a league of their own IMHO.

Any one of these or a Pathos integrated in your price range.

@jijoh123 @ghdprentice - +1 on the Audio Research integrated amp. Over the last few years I’ve been on a mission to listen to as many amps as I can, often in my home as possible. Over that time, I’ve acquired a Conrad Johnson and an Audio Hungary tube amp. Big fan.
 

But the amp that initially got me intrigued on tube amps was the Audio Research I-50. I initially purchased it when it first came out but supply chains during COVID delayed delivery, so I changed my mind and bought another amp from the dealer instead. And I regret it! The AR I-50 was simply amazing sounding.