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I experiment
Then I decide
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I experiment
Then I decide
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Looking for my Final Pair!!
Been through the high end maelstrom for over 30 years and although I have enjoyed the ride, I desperately want to find speakers that exude dynamics, tone and presence. I want to be transported to the Village Vanguard where The John Coltrane Quartet are performing any night I desire. I want to feel the timbre of his sax 🎷. When I close my eyes I want to be enveloped by the atmosphere of the space and awash with the impact and emotion being expressed by the musicians. I don’t want to hear what the engineers hear after they mix a recording...I want to be in the studio when the tracks are being laid down! So far, Tannoy Heritage Arden have come to my attention, Klipsch Cornwall IV’s, JBL S4700’s or perhaps Spatial Audio X3’s? Help
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Understood...not sure he can help himself. Probably means well but can’t take a hint 🙃 The whole reason I use REL (and have so for years with most of full range speakers) is because of their design philosophy, which is to augment the mains by adding reinforcement which adds atmosphere and presence along with harmonic density! |
atmasphere : my mistake but I’m not need your post as a reference because makes no sense at all: " The use of a sub is good, but in order to really take advantage of that, you’d have to make sure no bass is getting into the Cornwalls. " No bass? really? Then let us know what is your first hand experience to do that in the CW or other similar passive speaker. I stated in the thread the normal low/high pass crossover frequency to make lower the CW IMD . The other part in reference to use an electronic crossover: " muddy the sound, eliminating any perceived advantage ...." dave is doing your " muddy the sound " through the REL crossover. At least I posted this way of connection after he posted the REL manual operation and he don't tell me he is doing in other way . You make critics and as always with out facts. Please bring/show here your first hand experiences with measures that proves your " muddy sound eliminating ANY perceived advantage ". it’s stupid to think that all subs in home places are used stand alone as low bass reinforcement only. So what are you talking about? You can take all the examples I posted of manufacturers in the thread that use subs with its main speakers and they made the design for the subs handled only a part of the bass range not all bass through the subs as you posted: "" NO BASS is getting..... " R. |
I’ve found my final pair of speakers although I do enjoy others in my stable, but the ultimate island speakers for me are the Genesis G500. They do everything right and can be placed in most rooms comfortably. Flat to 20hz and coherent to rival any modern design. I’ve been an audiophile for 35 years and I get chills every time I sit down for a listen on these guys! https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/184/index.html |
You make critics and as always with out facts. Please bring/show here your first hand experiences with measures that proves your " muddy sound eliminating ANY perceived advantage ".Lol!! ROFLMAO! Raul, first, you don't present measurements here, so you're asking me to do so yet in the same breath, asking for anecdotal perception. But if you want a nice anecdote, you know I show at audio shows. One year at RMAF we had a ballroom. The system in that room had to be able to play the entire room. John, of Classic Audio Loudspeakers, thought it would be fun to bring an electronic crossover and bi-amplify the system. So we had an amp on the woofers and another in the highs, each driven by the output of the crossover. Recordings I knew well just didn't have the detail that I knew was there, and also knew that the speakers and amps could easily do. So we removed the crossover and ran the speakers full range (since they have a proper crossover anyway) and the problem was fixed. The simple fact is a crossover can rob the system of resolution. Note the word 'can' in the sentence above; it suggests a possibility; not that it always does. You have to be careful of the setup. You took my comments out of context without the important qualifiers. You can't just use any crossover; some work and some don't; if they rob the system of detail you're better off without. |
Dear @dave_b : "" Try psychotherapy... ", you can go on insulting me in all the ways you intent/intented. What you need is to learn and understand the IMD meaning that obviously that as you several other persons in this thread just can’t understand it or have a severe misunderstood for a very low knowledge levels in that speacific IMD regards. Here " something " that could help to fix your misunderstood. You say I need psycotherapy because you are sticked as one stupid here with the very old " fashion " ( same as REL people. ) to use a subs as only a low bass speaker reinforcement even with true full range speaker designs. That old and wrong way to use subs to listen MUSIC in stereo home systems changed several years ago in favor to lower the IMD levels to achieve true improvements in the room/system quality sound reproduction. Next some high-lihgts and links to understand about: this comes from white papers by Putzeys. """ Read any discussion about loudspeakers and you get the impression that distortion as a topic is eagerly avoided. If it is mentioned, it is done sotto voce, implicitly. For instance: “you can’t get good bass out of a small long-stroke driver. There’s no substitute for cone area when you want to move air”. Doesn’t sound like it is about distortion at all, does it? Let’s unpick the statement a bit: there is no substitute for cone area. Of course there is: displacement. If you want to move 100 cc of air, you could move a 500 cm 2 cone by 2 mm or you can move a 200 cm2 cone by 5 mm. At the wavelengths we’re talking about, there’s no difference between the two. So if the bigger driver sounds better, it must be because it’s managing that 2 mm movement much more precisely than the smaller driver is managing its 5mm. And that is a statement about distortion. If we can crack the question why a short-stroke driver is more accurate over short strokes than a long-stroke one over long strokes, it should enable us to build a long-stroke driver that’s just as accurate as a long stroke one for the same acoustical output. More accurate in fact, because once you understand the problem, there’s no reason why you couldn’t reduce distortion even further. A HD measurement done on a complete driver tends to show a complicated jumble of frequency and amplitude dependent distortion products. An IMD measurement shows another jumble. When we talk about distortion, there’s often a distinction made between Harmonic Distortion (HD) and Intermodulation Distortion (IMD). These aren’t two different types of distortion per se, but different ways in which the same distortion mechanism can manifest itself more or less saliently. Take for instance a woofer whose BL curve droops progressively with excursion. Tested with a single 30 Hz sine wave, this will only manifest itself as a form of soft limiting. This sounds like a change in tonal quality, but little more. The effect of the suspension progressively stiffening (Kms increases) with excursion would sound more or less the same in a single sine wave test. A HD measurement is not helpful in telling you which of the two effects is happening. By contrast, imagine what happens if you add a 1kHz tone to the bass tone. The added excursion caused by the 1kHz component itself is negligible. But now the two distortion mechanisms show very different signatures. As BL rises and falls throughout the 30 Hz cycle, so does the sensitivity of the motor. The 1 kHz tone gets amplitude modulated. You can hear the 1 kHz tone wobble. BL droop manifests itself not only as harmonic distortion, but also as intermodulation. The variable stiffness of the suspension however has no such effect. The 1 kHz tone will not be modulated by suspension stiffness. Why should it? 1 kHz is well above the resonance frequency, so there the mass of the cone completely dominates how the 1kHz component makes the cone move. The difference between the two distortion mechanisms is plainly audible on any genre of music that has both bass and midrange content. And as a distortion mechanism, the droop of the BL curve is much more audible than the progressive stiffening of the suspension. This is rather important. One often encounters drivers where two different distortion mechanisms are precisely orchestrated to make their harmonic distortions cancel. Such drivers look great on paper but this sleight of hand actually worsens IMD. The distortion takes the form of the signal being multiplied with a filtered version of itself, so it is predominantly second order in nature. Now, there is a common misconception that second order distortion is innocuous. This may be largely true of harmonic distortion where a second harmonic is easily masked by the fundamental, but in the case of intermodulation distortion it is patently false. Second order IMD generates difference frequencies which are below the signal frequency and don’t get masked at all. They audibly clog up the bass region in a manner which becomes extremely obvious once you remove the distortion. Also, amplitude modulation of mid frequency signals by the bass is very audible as burbling. """ http://www.klippel.de/know-how/measurements/nonlinear-distortion/intermodulation-distortion.html In next link read critical issues and you will see IMD: http://www.klippel.de/test-objects/low-frequency-drive-units.html http://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/klippel/Files/Know_How/Application_Notes/AN_08_3D_Intermodulation_Di... https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/audibility-of-distortion-at-bass/intermodulation-dist... In next link you can read: "" Another well known type of distortion is Intermodulation Distortion (IM) where a higher frequency is amplitude modulated by a lower frequency, causing new frequencies above and below the highest frequency at a frequency“distance” equal to the lowest frequency (mirrored side-bands). "" https://www.rmsacoustics.nl/papers/whitepaperdistortion.pdf Joe D’Appolito: "" We can tolerate relatively high levels of harmonic distortion in program material because, as their name implies, the spurious components added to the program are harmonically related to the original program. Intermodulation distortion (IMD) produces output frequencies that are not harmonically related to the input. These frequencies are much more audible and annoying than harmonic distortion. "" In 1967 a gentleman who cares about IMD made it his patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US3327043 Now, the CW woofer handled a wide frequency band where exist very high IMD levels and that only can be lower if part of the bass frequencies goes out of that woofer and for this we need subs and a high-pass filter that liberates the CW woofer of that bass frequency short band. I respect that you prefer the CW or any other speaker in full range status. So that means that you are not even aware of that IMD developed by those woofers in all the speakers you own or owned. Stay where you are and follow sticked to that old and wrong " fashion ". It’s your privilege and no one can disagree with. R. |
Bruno's comments contradict Raul's conclusion. Bruno teaches that a larger cone can get the job done with less excursion (which means 'lower distortion' in this case). The Klipsch has a 15" woofer, which is a larger cone resulting in less excursion. Bruno then uses the example of a 1KHz tone intermodulated thru Doppler Effect (with a high excursion cone); the Klipsch woofer is crossed over at 700Hz. Because the Klipsch horn is well active at 1000Hz it masks the lower level distortions of the woofer at the same frequency in the same way that this occurs with many other loudspeakers. Bruno's comments support the idea that the Klipsch is a lower distortion loudspeaker insofar as its woofer is concerned. We can see from this conversation that so far no particular argument has been leveled at the woofer itself. If there is a weak argument (re. Bruno) for distortion it would have to be about the crossover frequency not the woofer. Occam's Razor is the oldest scientific principle. It teaches that given two explanations, the simpler one is probably the right one. We have Raul's remonstrations as the complex explanation, and we have the far simpler explanation: In a nutshell Raul was/is simply wrong; we see this in spades from Bruno's text, which explains why the Klipsch is a lower distortion design. |
Dear @roxy54 : I can see in this thread that some of you ( including that stupid. ) posted everything against my posts even laugjhin of me and yes is very easy to make critics to any one posts when those critics has not to be proved by facts that were used as the critics foundation. I can't see/read here to any of you posted any single contribution that can helps to improve the quality sound reproduction of the OP or in any of your systems. Applaud is not a contribution and makes more damage than helps in any way. Forums are places ( for me. ) where we can learn ( that's why I post, trying always to learn or help. ) or confirm what we already knew, it is a " win to win " excersice: no one is defeated but here some want to beat the other person ( in this case me. ) and try to do it with no first hand experience facts to do it. I don't post to beats any one, this kind attitudes is almost the rule in the audio forums and is way wrong. So instead to follow making useless/futile critics ( including Dave. ) my advise to all of you is to make true contributions that in any way can enhance the different issues developed through any thread. Btw, I learned, by " test and error " , several years ago the critical and main characteristic that impedes to any system to have top quality sound reproduction and that has a name: IMD levels. My ADS goes down to below 18hz and is designed to run with a stereo amp or to run in bi-amp way ( with out using external crossover. ) as many other speaker manfacturers designs. Bi-amp works really good and enhance the quality level sound reproduction. Latter on ADS made it a dedicated external crossover for my speakers and obviously I bougth it and I achieved higher quality sound reproduction levels. All those gaves me some kind of first hand experiences about and then I asked my self: why not add subwoofers? that in those times was a crazy idea due that my ADS goes really low but even that I tryed and for may self I step by step learned about that IMD. For my self and not through links information or advise of other gentlemans else where. That's why I posted in Agon the " old " subwoofer thread with foundation mainly as the subs main target is not to achieve better and lower bass range but to put at minimum the IMD developed by the passive woofers in speakers and as a side advantage better and lower bass. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @dave_b : In audio world nothing is perfect, always exist different kind of trade-offs. A room/system quality sound reproduction levels has a direct relationship to the choosed trade-offs by each one of us. So as better choosed trade-offs as better the room/system quality sound reproduction levels. The best way to be " near " to that perfection is to mantain the room/systems developed distortions ( every kind of distortions/noises etc. ) at minimum. That’s all and yes that’s exactly what I learned to do and more important how to detect those distortions and when is possible how to fix it. Rigth now am I chasing distortions?, not really. What I’m doing is listening to reproduced MUSIC through my room/system. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Well speaker choice is a very personal thing. Given what you were looking for I think there are some obvious places to look. I have been an audio file for 50 years. I have enjoyed plateaus and which iced stuck with the same equipment for 5 to 10 years and really really enjoyed it. I normally try to make all positive comments on posts. But looking at your list of speakers, I can’t help but think your hook might be in the wrong pond. I recommend you take a look at Wilson, Sonus Fabre, and B&W. There are also a number of brands a little bit peripheral to this group. But these companies pride themselves on bringing concert Accurate sound. They’re highly reviewed and highly regarded With high resale value. Given the price you’re looking at I highly recommend researching these companies. If I remember correctly you were looking at 10 or 12,000 that is an excellent high end range to be in. It is highly competitive. |
Enjoying the music without being hyper neurotic about ones sound system is difficult for any veteran audiophile. The Cornwall’s help distract me from being overtly critical of my sound and more involved with the heart of the music. My suggestion for newbie audiophiles is to buy what fits in your budget once and enjoy the heck out of it...do not overthink everything! The pathway to Dante’s Inferno is paved with tweaking and upgrading 😳 |
@roxy54 I actually tried a bought an inexpensive set of planar magnetic supertweeters to augment my speakers last year, and found them to be disappointing. The ones that I bought sounded sort of "dry". However, 3 weeks ago, I finally bought a set of the Townshend ribbon supertweeters, and I have to say that they are as good as I had heard that they are.So how do you hook up these supertweeters, say, to Cornwall IV's for example?? |
@dsper I've run my CW IV with a Naim Uniti Nova, which is a really nice match for the CW IV. SS & Tubes each have their own unique strengths, which is better would be a matter of personal taste. For me, bass performance was better with the Naim but not by enough of a margin to keep me away from tubes. My preferred amp with the CW IVs is an Audio Note Cobra. It's a Class A PP EL34 design that puts out 28 watts, mid-range is fantastic (superior to the Naim) and it's dead quiet--even at idle. |
jarossi13, I probably need to go listen to the Cornwall IV's again but with tubes. The first time I heard them it was with McIntosh solid state and was not impressed. I am coming from Thiel CS5i's, which have a certain solidness to the sound that the Cornwalls did not. On the other hand, the Corwalls had a kind of energy that would make them great when you want to rock. Dsper |
The Naim was the only SS amp that I used with the CW IV and it was a very nice match. While I personally preferred tubes, most people could enjoy the Naim and call it a day. In addition to sounding good, the Naim was also super convenient. It's an integrated amp with built-in DAC and streaming capabilities. |
Phew what a read. My lord does this Raul guy even listen to music?Maybe while he types these novels. LOL what a waste of time. I have been on a journey with many amps and the Forte III over the last year and I think you are in for a real treat with the Decware amp you ordered. Of the many amps I've used, First Watt J2 and F6, Pass 30.8, Theta Prometheus, Naim Atom and Nova the little Zen triode is my fav by far. To the point I don't think I could have a speaker that an amp like this can't drive. I've ordered the Cornwall IV myself and hoping they give me that little bit more bass and slam the Forte III lack in my large room. BTW I dumped my Kef Blades after hearing the Forte IIIs for some time in my main system compared to the Blades. |
