I, for one, love my Cornwall IVs. Most people in this thread that say how disappointed you will be have never heard them. It is likely they heard a klipsch speaker 30 years ago on a cheap receiver, poorly set up and established an “informed” opinion that they carry around to this day.
Please discount these “opinions” with extreme impunity. I look forward to hearing your personal account of how these speakers perform for you.
Oz |
As far as a live concert in a large hall. I think it could be argued that the live concert is not actually "live" ..... huh. Guitars, drums, vocals, keyboards, all hooked up to mics and speakers. Even in a live concert you are listening to 100% speakers in a lot of cases. 100% speakers playing in a massive room. If you could record from each mic separately and then sync and playback in that same venue, would it sound essentially the same? (of course in real life the ambient sounds of the reflected hall would also be in the recording but if you could eliminate that, would it sound the same. I think for the most part, yes |
We were speaking primarily to a live acoustic concert...Symphony! But for amplified concerts there is still a strong dynamic crispness or aliveness that we all can identify instantly! I speak to that energy and vitality in music...this is what often gets lost or intentionally tamped down in some designs. |
I found the comments he made about inductor saturation interesting. I wonder if he's right about that. |
Dear @roxy54 : ""
What the heck are you talking about? ""
The IMD and THD Cornwall developed distortions mainly belongs to that woofer that crossover 700hz what means that even intrudes at around 800hz.
Those IMD/THD distortions are incremented in any passive speaker where the woofer crossover is to high as in that speaker because at the same time that the woofer is handling extremely critical frequencies that goes between the 100hz-800hz where performs several instruments including voice that woofer has high excursion to reproduce frequencies as low as 30hz those high movements in the woofer always interfere with the other frequency es range adding high InterModulationDistortions and at the same the TotalHarmonicDistortions goes higher.
That several audiophiles like the Cornwall says that they like those high distortion levels, that's all.
Please read again or read it for first time the link in my last post to Dave that explains very easy why in a passive speakers we need subs and the Cornwall really " cry " for subs, its woofer crossover is really high.
Even if you like it you can't change those facts and that's what I'm talking about.
R. |
Ironically I just had a previous set of speakers that also crossed over in the 800 or 850 range...JBL 4429’s! I miss them... they sounded fantastic actually. Just want that kind of sound in a nicer cabinet without stands. Of course 15”’s...come on, gotta try that man! |
That several audiophiles like the Cornwall says that they like those high distortion levels, that's all.
I've had speakers from Von Schweikert, Magnepan, Piega, Wilson Audio, Montana, Reference 3a, just to name a (VERY) few. All have been special in their own way. So I guess I just woke up one morning and decided I crave the type of high distortion levels that only a Cornwall can produce. Do you see the folly of your statement? |
Talked to Steve at Decware 👍. Ordered a Torii Mk4 and Zbit. 20 weeks 😳 |
Dear @ozzy62 : Again, that you like it it does not means is rigth because facts is that’s wrong about those characteristics I posted.
I see that you own two subs and according what you posted you are using those subs only as bass reinforcement and not to lower those high Cornwall kind of distortions.
Facts are facts and you can’t change it and I’m talking of those facts/objective and you are talking of subjectivity and when any one post in a dialogue something subjective that dialogue is just finished because no one can refute a subjective opinion.
Obviously for you my opinion is: folly unfortunatelly you can’t prove it and I can prove the other way around. As a fact I already did it.
R. |
rauliruegas,
All that is proven by all of your measurement hocus pocus is that in many cases, like this one, measurements that YOU consider to be important are in practice NOT important. It looks like you’re measuring the wrong things in this case.
I looked at your posted system, and I'm certain that the measurements of those speakers are far from being without fault, but that's ok, because you like the way they sound, right? And THAT is the whole point. Period. |
@dave_b
When you have the chance, please change your subject header ...
I completely got the wrong idea :-)
|
I already chose that pair over 35 years ago...36 C’s and they still perform well! |
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My favorite speakers of all time...still gathering dust in my original home, with a shot midrange driver, were the Bozak B313b’s. Absolutely musical and dynamic! Just a box with great drivers and crossover. Small tin screws for speaker connections. |
I’m sure they measured horribly 👂 |
@dave_b,
But, they sound "great" that, is your measurement. :-) Mike |
Dear @roxy54 : "
the measurements of those speakers are far from being without fault, but that's ok, because you like the way they sound, right? And THAT is the whole point. " You are rigth because there is no perfect speaker but only can hope to approach that " perfect " but we have to remember the room intrinsecal realtionship with any speaker quality level performance. Now my " new " and vintage ADS L2030 is not only a normal speaker and the whole point is not precisely: " you like the way it sound ", there are several issues behind it and we have to understand those issues. Look, if you make the things rigth that " like " with any audio item will comes per sé. In the past Telarc asked to ADS to design and build a speakers to monitor its recording LPs and ADS made it a dedicated truly full range speakers that were mated with Threshold electronics. The success of this design was for Telarc and ADS so outstanding than ADS decided to design a new monitors and then born the L2030 and L1530 that were used for Telarc in all its recording LPs. These speakers are true monitors and what this word means. Here you can read and look about: http://sportsbil.com/ads/l-2030-brochure.pdf@ditusa posted to Dave: "
they sound "great" that, is your measurement. " that statement seems rigth but in reality it's not. I'm not talking of what we like but what is rigth that's different approach. Next statement came from Roxy: "" measurements that YOU consider to be important are in practice NOT important. "" who told you? that in the past almost no body cares about THD/IMD speaker distortions does not means today no body cares yet. Both measures of that kind of speaker distortions are way important and manufacturers know it but the levels are so high that they decided not to disclose it. At the end they take advantage of that low knowledge audiophile level with that " like " as the " measurements ". Next link try to explain something about and proves the necessity/urgency to put at minimum the IMD/THD levels specially at speakers bass range that's the name of the audiophile game: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/wilson-alexx-v/post?postid=2126914#2126914http://www.laassoluta.com/intro.htmhttps://legacyaudio.com/images/uploads/reviews/Legacy_Aeris_Axpona_2014_Positive_Feedback_Robert_You...https://www.sonusfaber.com/en/products/aida/this Aida passive speaker design is a great one because its bass range crossover are at 55hz and 150hz. Please any one of you ask the designer why he choosed those crossover points. Just do it if you want to learn and grow up about. In that thread I gave my advise to the OP gentleman as an alternative to those Wilson Alexx V:
https://www.kerracoustic.com/k300with this Xover: https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/electronic-crossovers/fm-330-series/these could be the subs: https://www.evolutionacoustics.com/loudspeakers/mini-series/minisub/?doing_wp_cron=1615566000.556648...
We audiophiles are accustomed to like several wrong " things " and it's not our culprit but culprit coming from the teach ( bad and corrupted teaching. ) of the AHEE where all we belongs. One way or the other almost all of you are " against " my posts about but please let me know which Cornwall IV owner has its set up using subwoofers not as bass range reinforcement but crossing at 80hz-90hz where the main speakers are handled from there and up? If no one of you, even with other kind of speakers , have not that first hand experiences how could have a credible opinion. From where can comes that " certainty " that you think you have? Try to be objective about the whole issue because at the end is only COMMON SENSE and nothing more. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
@rauliruegas I have no idea what your saying...my mind went blank half way through 😳 Anyway, the Cornwall’s look stunning in person...like better than unwrapping Wilson Watt/Puppy 8’s or anything else I’ve had (a lot)! As I said, the Bozak’s I grew up with were soooo much better than anything I’ve spent silly money on....and they were purchased from a department store in 1963. Yeah....audio has taken a wrong turn. Good sound was had decades ago and the high end has been collectively driving the audiophile community off of the cliff! |
Hi Raul,
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's a amusing though that you mention Telarc using ADS as studio monitors. I own quite a few of their recordings, and despite their reputation, I have found many of them to be disappointing sonically. |
I’ll second that on the Telarc Sonics being unnatural sounding. |
so @dave_b do you have a preliminary report for us?
Oz
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No 😳. Sold my previous amp...getting a temporary integrated FRIDAY !! My Decware Zen Torii MK IV is far away...come on August 😎 |
So you have speakers and no amp? That sucks. |
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Getting a temporary integrated to run them in ....Yamaha A S701...tone controls and a loudness button 👶🏻. Oh, and a phono stage is included! |
You're going to love that Torii. I had a Torii II driving a pair of klipschorns for a while. That was a very good combo.
Oz
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Dear @roxy54 and friends : I own over 7K+ LPs and between them almost all digital old Telarc recordings and yes not all are very good but the majority are and between the good ones there are some excellent recordings as the 1812 and not only because those great cannon shots but along that the sound of the triangle or tambourine and in the score that part with the carrillon reproduction is just sublime where if you have the level of room/system you can be aware of each one of those " hundreds " bells sound tone differences. With recordings as Telarc good ones we are immersed in the MUSIC as never before.
Again, if we own the rigth room/system that Telarc 1812 is a true reference and test for any system.
Certainly and with out any doubt the Cronwall IV or " VI " can’t honor that truly high reference kind of MUSIC LP no matters what.
Years ago a gentleman that lived in Argentina send me an Agon message that he was in Mexico city for a week and that he wanted that both of us meets at my place to talk and know a new audiophile. Well that was very good time and very good listening sessions.
Suddenly he asked by the 1812 score and I took my Telarc LP and we started to listen it at real live event SPL and before the LP finished I look to his face and this gentlemans was crying ( believe or not. ), when the LP finished he told me: Raul you make it because I listened several times live and in audio systems this score and never feels as today.
I had a first hand experience with me, there is one score with Montserrat Caballe lovely voice ( for say the least ) that always makes me tears goes out from my eyes. Yes, this is the MUSIC power and it's all about.
Problem with almost all of you is that seems to me that never had that kind of first hand experiences and if you don’t have it then and with all respect: why don’t you have that kind of system quality when you are music lovers and experienced audiophiles?, yes that AHEE impedes you to have it, pity try to broken those AHEE chains. You can do if you start thinking " out of the box " to up-grade or up-date your room/system actions.
One gentleman posted that my statements were a folly and this is a prove of a very low knowledge levels in this specific distortions developed subject.
Roxy, when I was looking to buy my subs not only make with first hand experiences several tests with several manufacturer subwoofers and made a research through the internet looking for some critical information and I talked with those manufacturers.
Guess what? no single subwoofer manufacturer has disclosed the THD in their subs specs models and no one could told me that THD figure in its subs but Velodyne.
Velodyne was and is a great sub design and the spec about is really low: 0.5% ( THD ). Velodyne achieved by design sensing around 16K times each second the woofer excursions to avoid a higher than 0.5% on THD.
JL Audio measured ( I think in a Stereophile review. ) 5.6% and big Rel 6.3% ( I can’t remember whom made the measurements. ).
Now, those 0.5% or 5.6% on THD are achieved with a woofer designed specific for a really short bass frequency range along a dedicated amplifier to fulfill the subs needs and even that the THD is not really low but Velodyne.
Any of your passive speakers, including the Cornwall , that THD figure in those woofers handling a wider frequency range and with a non-dedicated amplifier the distortion is at over 15%-20% and that’s what almost all of you are accustom to and I was accustomed till I understand the whole critical issue down there and fixed.
Some one says here that those numbers on THD 15%-20% are not important !, go figure. THE IMD is way critical too and numbers are not lower than the ones for the THD.
Gentlemans you are losting the more important subject in the room/system reproduction: MUSIC and till you experience what I posted in this thread you just can’t understand the true outstanding quality level of your MUSIC at your place that puts you nearer to the recording and that makes that against live MUSIC the " big joke " that is the home system MUSIC reproduction can goes not so " big ".
@dave_b yes those vintage speakers as your Bozak were great. Do you remember The Voice of the Theater? There are several speakers from those times and after those times I think that one of the first speaker manufacturer that understanded the bass range issue was Infinity with its separate passive subs tower Reference model.
Now and in good shape please tell me why all of you are rigth and I could be wrong but not tell me with subjectivity words by with facts.
I don’t try to convince to any one of you, I only share a different facts and opinion.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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Raul,
How do you dare to presume that you know what others have or have not experienced?
I don't need to say any more. You have proven your ignorance perfectly all on your own. |
Dear friends: One of the best LP recording ever made and that competes with the best D2D M&K or Sheffield Labs recordings is the one that came from MoFi: The Power and the Majesty.
Side one first track The ThunderStortm is really something to " die for " if you have the rigth quality room/system. All the LP is astonishing but you need to be " there ", just outstanding and I truly mean it.
R. |
Raul,
We are not worthy (bowing to his majesty).........
|
Dear @ozzy62 : Obviously you are worthy of your own words. Btw, the majesty is only the MUSIC.
I can see you use tube electronics. As you I was a tube lover for over 10+ years till I learned and you need to learn. No doubt about.
R. |
Oh, so now he's an expert on the amplification devices we should use! You are really something Raul! Learn to spell and there'll be no stopping you. |
Dear @roxy54 : Very far away from there. But I have some first hand experiences in the electronic design and first hand experiences on active/passive electronics parts. These gives me some " idea " about. Just as an example about tube electronics and not as a critic against the designer that I respect first than all. So take it just as an example, the manufacturer name does not matters at all. I took the Decaware Torii amps ( nothing personal against it. ). Next statements came from its site: """ Exotic parts - cost no object design. "" "" with a bit sweeter top end. "" " from DECWARE, you can see better with your eyes closed "
All 3 statements are full of subjectivity and can’t be proved with true facts:
Exotic parts?, more in a moment.
Sweeter top end? well live MUSIC at near field position where the recording microphones are " seated " is all you want but sweet.
The third statement is " crazy " for say the least.
One of those " exotic " parts are these Jupiter caps where the manufacturer says: " upgrade caps the beeswax are a bit more organic sounding while the VCAP’ " Organic, one audiophile adjective that exist only in the imagination and not in a live MUSIC. Again, subjective word.
https://www.decware.com/newsite/images/parts.jpg
" After trying everything from VCAPS to Mundorfs, a year long cap selection process ends with these Cryo-treated flat stacked copper foil capacitors featuring an organic bees wax dielectric and silver leads. """ One of my first hand experiences ( solid experiences. ) is with those kind of " exotic/boutique " caps that I used through my electronics and speaker crossover and like Decaware I owned, tested, compared in my system through several years from Duelund to Mundorf, V-caps, Sonicraft, Jantzen, Auricap, MIT, Clarity, Audyn, etc, etc. I used the top models in all those caps. Example: I use from V-caps in electronics the Teflon CU ones that are truly expensive and performs very good. Well, more than a year ago I posted a dedicated thread looking for the experts advises on caps: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-harmless-signatureless-speakers-capacitorsI appreciated all those gentleman experts advises but I could not found out exactly what I’m looking for then I tood that bull by its horns and by my self started a research in the internet and started to buy several non-boutique non-exotic caps that I tested/compared against the boutique ones and obviously against in between all those non boutique ones. After several months searching and learning about I ended with exclusively non boutique caps/resistors that things are that are the overall industry true standards and that outperformed and outperforms easyly any of those boutique/exotic caps/resistors. The industry standards measures way better than the boutique very high price$$$ against the " peanuts " price of the " humble " industry standard. I changed one critical V-cap teflon Cu at the input of my monoblok amplifiers and instead the V-cap now I’m using the humble Wima FKP1: outstanding and for me was a true discovery because I never imagined that those Wima could in any way outperforms any boutique caps. Other changes were in my speakers crossover where I use Wima and Kemet caps along Vishay resistors. Nothing can beat it. One main characteristic/advantage that my system achieved with those caps/resistors was and is that the room/system noise floor goes really down and believe me or not just disappeared. With the system volume all the way up if you switch on or off you can’t detect any noise floor difference in between those two conditions. But what could happen if this tube manufacturer or Tidal speakers choosed Wima/Kemet or Vishay instead the boutique ones?. You have the answer. Btw, this is the spec of one Torii amp: FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 20Hz ~ 20kHz +/- 0.4dB ( they don't disclose the IMD, slew rate or damping factor in any of its amplifier specs. ) ? ? ! ! the inverse RIAA eq. deviation in my phonolinepreamp performs from lower than 20hz to higher than 20khz with a deviation of only: 0.011 db and both channels measures the same. Nothing here or in the cap thread is subjective but full of facts/measures/objectivity. As I posted before: we must think out of the box out of the AHEE. R. |
Do you know where used the paper on oil and paper/wax capacitors?, were used in the home radio capacitors in the 40's and 80 years latter appears in the boutique caps that are only snake oil/BS parts.
Obviously that Wima, Kemet or Vishay does not use that kind of folly design that audiiophiles love it.
Btw,, it does not makes sense that an electronics manufacturer touted exotic parts/cost no object when the recording signal durinf playback must pass in that electronic items through " hundreds " of m. of wire inside those transformers where that beloved signal suffers a wide and big degradation and that's what many of you like it because are accustom too.
R. |
No suggestion. ["Atmasphere, But seriously I've been running the Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T3 for the last 22 years and while I did get them updated, I've felt no desire to replace them."] Never heard his speakers but I stumbled onto this lack of desire not to replace after years on the merry-go-round. My speakers always seemed sleepy at shows and in stores. It wasn't until I had a pair at home and in just a few days I realized I wasn't listening to my system anymore. I wish I could describe the presentation without the subjectivity. Its been seventeen years for me. I guess you'll just know. All the best. |
Soooo...decided to keep my Krell K300i!! Hooked it up and....really nice and detailed but no odd harmonics or anything abrasive. This is gonna be a great match when the Cornwall’s settle in:(). They seem to eat the power up almost as much as my B&W802D3’s did 😳 |
@m-db While I've had no desire to replace the speakers, that is because I've not heard anything better. But I did get them updated in that time- dual woofers, new crossover and field coil drivers.@roxy54 If you don't have some goat meat handy its a good idea to not feed the troll. I've tried that and it never ends well.
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Soooo...decided to keep my Krell K300i!! Hooked it up and....really nice and detailed but no odd harmonics or anything abrasive. This is gonna be a great match when the Cornwall’s settle in:(). They seem to eat the power up almost as much as my B&W802D3’s did 😳
If you aren't hearing all those "distortions' that Raul was going on about, you need to listen harder. I'm sure you'll hear them eventually........... |
Hi Ralph,
I know that you're right, and thanks. I let myself get sucked into these ridiculous arguments sometimes because of ridiculous assertions that are made, disguised as fact. |
Dear @roxy54 : ""
these ridiculous arguments... """
Really?, what is ridiculous is that you post that kind of statements when till today you don't posted any single argument or facts that can tell us why my arguments all over this thread are ridiculous and you did not because you have any due to your very low knowledge levels in those main subjects.
First you need to have first hand experiences, learn and then maybe you can come back and show your knowledge levl up date becaus til now you showed very low levels.
atmasphere is an active part of that corrupted AHEE ( where we all belongs. ) that impedes you can grow up. He belongs to the deep " dark side " of that AHEE.
He always fail to hit me no matter what. There was no need to post what he posted to you in reference to me and even that he did ( with out reason. ) it and said I'm a troll: go figure ! . Frustration down there, pity.
R.
|
Raul,
I made my position clear to you in previous posts. I have never claimed to be an engineer, or any sort of authority, quite the opposite in fact. However, I still stand by what I said concerning measurements versus perceived sound quality. One does not necessarily predict the other.
Concerning what Ralph said to me and my response, that is between the two of us. |
Everyone calm down...it’s all good! Enjoy what we have in common rather than highlighting our d’où🤗 |
Differences! Damn spellcheck 😬 |
Enjoy what we have in common rather than highlighting our d’où🤗 is homer simpson an audiogon member???? |
So how are those speakers sounding dave?
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Breaking them in...tight yet but playing them overnight. My gut is telling me tubes may be the way to go afterall. For that extra dimensionality and sparkle ❇️ |
Ah, the mighty Bozaks! One of my all-time favorite speakers that I've owned were the Bozak B501 Concerto VII's....very smooth with a fabulous midrange. Wish I still had them. They were great for all types of music, but were especially good with large orchestral types. Actually, in their heyday, many orchestras used Bozaks to augment their sound. I remember back in the 70's being at a concert at the Hollywood Bowl where oodles of Bozaks were lined up above the sound stage.
If you want to try to replace your midrange, it's a model B209 8 ohm. They can be found occasionally on eBay, |
Thank Bond San, I just ordered a BAT VK80i for trial from Music Direct! |
Dear @dave_b : ""
You cannot pick out the exact placement of any instrument. In fact, soundstaging is mostly non existent as well. """
And now you are looking for " that extra dimensionality and sparkle. ""
In a home system I understand that the dimensionality is part intrinsecal to each one room/system and the quality levels of the system ( specially electronics/speakers. ) frequency extremes and here comes or not that sparkle you are talking about. Are the harmonics developed in the play proccess what defines it.
Again, bass range is with out doubt the key down there.
R.
@roxy54 : ""
that is between the two of us. "" absolutely not if both of you are indirectly reffering to me. This is a public forum not a private one. |
Ok Raul, whatever you say. If you don't want people to discuss you, don't say outrageous, unproveable things. |
