Little help with REL subwoofers, please?

@northman I wish you the best in getting your house into tip-top condition once again...

Thanks to you both. I bet many can relate to this: I was moving forward on the subwoofer path, closing in ... and then life stepped in. In the last five days we've had two major weather events here in northern Vermont where I live, and my house and property took a serious hit. I'm now waiting on the repair estimates before I return to the more pleasurable audio prospects. Obviously the lesson is: don't delay  the fun purchases!

Hello, @northman. Just so you know, if you decide on REL T/7x's, I'm about to sell a pristine black pair. I have all of the original equipment: boxes, power cords, high level cables, manuals, etc. I'd be willing to sell the pair for $1400 + shipping costs, so this could save you a bit of money versus new. If interested, please reach out: fitmannj@icloud.com.

You’d be surprised how fast the Rythmik subs are. I’m using an F12 with Ascend Sierra Towers w/ RAAL ribbon tweeters and they integrate great to my ears.

I’ve eyed the FM8’s before but my use for them would be as low/mid-bass drivers, as they were intended, to add punch around 150Hz. Sub-bass (<80Hz) isn’t the type of bass that hits you in the chest.

@deep_333, YES. I was thinking along the same lines. Great suggestion! 

At 65 lbs, it’s on the edge of what I can comfortably deal with, which is a consideration for me. Perhaps I’ll wait to hear what my ortho says about my knee next week....

@northman , Furniture dollies have largely saved my back over the years... Just unpack any sub straight onto a dolly and keep it on the dolly...comes in handy whenever you’re dealing with sub setup, moving them around to find optimal placement, etc.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Stalwart-440-lbs-Wheeled-Furniture-Dolly-M550109/302662176

@m-db it surprised me to be honest.  I figured it would measure better than the specs, just cause my room tends toward bass heavy,  but not as low as it did.  Tbh, I don’t know how accurate the measurements are but they seem to be consistent.

Thanks, @deep_333. Since your post yesterday, I've actually spent a few hours reading about the F8. It looks like a neat sub and offers some appealing controls (not all of which I understand). A few comments have called it "niche," and there aren't many reviews of it, but I like what I've read and it's clear that Rythmik has a superb reputation. And my system might indeed be exactly that niche. At 65 lbs, it's on the edge of what I can comfortably deal with, which is a consideration for me. Perhaps I'll wait to hear what my ortho says about my knee next week.... 

I will also take a look at the KEFs. For the moment, I'm enjoying the process of opening up my options, learning about different companies, and even exploring dsp and bass management. At some point, though, I'll just have to take the leap... I remain appreciative of everyone's help!

@deep_333, thank you for the suggestions. I've spent the last couple days reading about Rythmik subs. I'm impressed by what I read about both the F12 and the F8, but at 65-75lbs, they may be too heavy for me--but I appreciate the recommendation.

@northman , Even with the Rythmik (technically the fastest subs out there), i wouldn't touch their 12 inch driver F12 or bigger for Magnepans...The FM8 is the sub with the smallest drivers they make.

This is also one of the challenges with MLogan electrostats. Their own bass driver can be perceived to lag a bit for the discerning ear... not a unique problem with Magnepans alone.

You could also try out that KEF KC62. It is a fairly recent technological wonder in the world of subs, if you ask me. A dealer like crutchfield has a 60 day no hassle return policy, if things didn't work out right. 

I have the LRS+ in my bedroom system (mainly used for home theater).

A sub was obviously needed for movie sound effects.  I got an Arendal 1961 s based on its reviews and feature set, and it not being too big or heavy with a 12.3 inch driver.

Bottom line is that it was very easy to integrate with the Maggies.  Setting the low pass to 50hz with a 24 db octave roll off gives me the rumble I want without it affecting the transparency of the Maggies.  (It also has parametric eq settings which I don’t use.)

@jastralfu      I've measured using REW and it's around -3db at 30HZ and -6db at 20HZ.  I am quite pleased with them. 

As a past REL user I'd say even the manufacturer would find your measurement quite spectacular. 

https://rel.net/shop/powered-subwoofers/serie-tx/t-5x/    > specs 

I don't know how small your space is, but mine is small (12x10) and I just put in two REL T/5x subs.  They were easy to integrate with the Neutrik Speakon connectors.  They move enough air to shake the floor and my listening chair when I turn it up (my neighbors likely don't care for it so I don't do it often).  I looked at Rhythmik as well but they are just too large for my space.  The RELs are the perfect size for me.  Since I bought two I asked the dealer if he could give me a discount and he did at 10%.  If you sell the two TZeros and buy a pair of T/7xs you might be able to swing a discount as well.  My in room performance for the T/5x is probably closer to 25-30HZ.  I've measured using REW and it's around -3db at 30HZ and -6db at 20HZ.  I am quite pleased with them.  They are fast and tight and have the sound I was looking for.

@deep_333, thank you for the suggestions. I've spent the last couple days reading about Rythmik subs. I'm impressed by what I read about both the F12 and the F8, but at 65-75lbs, they may be too heavy for me--but I appreciate the recommendation.

@northman

Integrating a subwoofer with fast Magnepans can be very difficult with "conventional" subwoofers.

Things that help

- sealed sub

- smallest driver possible that can still give 20 hz and below bass extension (i.e. serve as a "subwoofer")

- Servo controlled "fast" driver (if possible)

2 possible options emerge, that could work better for your application...

a) Rythmik FM8, smaller dual 8 inch drivers, that have Rythmik’s servo control support.

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/FM8.html

b) KEF KC62 (dual small, fast 6.5 inch drivers, no servo support however)

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_991KC62T/KEF-KC62-Titanium-Grey.html?tp=187

Note: Both these small subwoofers can give you bass extension under 20 hz (i.e. these are unique offerings). Both can also serve as midbass units, if needed, If you have multiple subs set up around you, you won’t be able to localize much by increasing crossover frequencies. You could also try shooting for relatively "nearfield" locations to your listening position with small subs (to add increased perception of tactile impact/feeling of growl, thunder).

There are many other "small subwoofers" out there, but, there is no point in getting a small crappy subwoofer that just gets down to 45, 50 Hz.

i am holding out for a subwoofer made in an islamic country myself, so it can synergize with my flying persian rug 😂🤣😅😉😆

wtf

Rel S and Ref series are faster on specs, issue is whether one hears T as slow, if not than there is no problem. Same with Maggie's, I've heard them with a variety of medium to high end electronics, always enjoyed the sound qualities of these speakers.

 Generalizations aren't worth much in this highly subjective and individualistic hobby/obsession. And criticisms of China made components are political, what does that have to do with sound quality?  Furthermore, virtually all audio electronics have China made components within.

Such rubbish, no data and based 100% on this KH opinion. 
 

T series subs not fast enough and made in china I would get 2 S/510’s. Remember even if Maggie’s are affordable they need the very best in electronics and subs for much more expensive speakers to actually work right.

@pennfootball71 I don't hear any sense of these being slow thus far. I suspect Rel subs very difficult to make generalizations about since main speakers and amps have relatively large influence on how subs perform. So far, with my Klipschorns, the T9x has virtually no impact on bass performance per se, don't really reach lower, just a bit of db boost in freq. where in room response at my listening position begins to roll off. These all about sound stage expansion for me.

Going into Rel purchase,  speed was of utmost concern for me, assumed these might be slow. Using this reasoning I partnered with Ac receptacle and power cords that I know supply fast, tight bass, considering silver high level speakon wire if I hear some slowing in future.

If these are slow, my past subs and present Genesis sub would be slower than slow, even with dsp slower than high level circuit in these Rels. I'm also open to the fact that over time I may hear some sense of slowness, why I may wish to upgrade to Reference models at some point.

T series subs not fast enough and made in china I would get 2 S/510’s. Remember even if Maggie’s are affordable they need the very best in electronics and subs for much more expensive speakers to actually work right.

@jjss49, that's incredibly generous of you! I'm in Vermont, so not quite local, but I greatly appreciate the thought. I took a look at your impressive system(s) and I can imagine borrowing all kinds of things from you! 

@sns, it's great to hear about your listening session. Fantastic. My own listening sessions have started to feel a little less amazing lately, coincidentally right around the time that I launched this thread. Go figure.

Ishmael, recognizing that the book we call Moby-Dick is but a draft, a draft of a draft, says, "God keep me from ever completing anything ... Oh, Time, Strength, Cash, and Patience!" That pretty much sums up the audiophile world to me....

For what it's worth, I just downloaded the REW and ordered the umik-1. As I said above, I'm curious. In the meantime, happy listening to y'all.

Update on my experience with the T9x, last night's listening session relatively large expansion of sound stage, and bass starting to loosen up and gaining in impact. These improvements due to burning in of every single component from 10/2 Romex tie in to monoblock amps dedicated circuit, AC receptacle, power cords, T9x and high level cable. Really in awe of the extent of this ss expansion, I've gained less from far more expensive equipment changes in past. For years I've considered my Klipschoen's ss couldn't be bettered, life size three dimensional images, great organization and focus such that individualization of each performer easily heard. Take the subs out and ss collapses, absolutely amazing! I'm now considering how a pair of Rel Reference could improve upon TX performance, may step up to these if my room can handle it. Other amazing thing is only one click crossover change since sub installation, seems these may be set it and forget it subs, no more of those constant  fine tuning changes that drove me crazy with past subs! I also expect further improvements with experimentation with high level cabling. Obviously, Rel philosophy has won me over.

sorry @northman i don’t mean to beat a dead horse 🤣

enjoy the process and let us know what you end up doing...

by your username it doesn’t sound like you are near northern california, but if on the off chance you are, i currently have pairs of t9i, t9x, strata, s510... you would be welcome to borrow a pair to try

Message received, @mijostyn! As long as the can opener doesn't require an app, I'm good. 

@jeenam: thank you. I'm not sure how far I'll take any of this, but I'll explore the territory for as long as it's fun.

Again, thank you to everyone who replied. I feel encouraged by all the excellent advice. 

@jeenam 

The SHD and SHD studio come with a UMIK 1, but as an upgrade they offer UMIK 2 which is highly recommended. Your corrections can be no better than your measurements.

@northman 

Can you follow the directions on a can opener? 

MiniDSP is my vote for room correction solution.

You'll need a microphone as well for measurements.

Thanks again, all. Although I realize that we’re talking about a relatively modest purchase here,I still feel lucky to be considering the options. I don’t need any convincing about pairing subs; that’s my plan. And I’m going to buy new, with the option to return, though I can see the Rythmik "Christmas" F12 for sale out here. I’ve learned the hard way that it’s important for me to try before committing.

@mijostyn , I’ll keep looking over the MiniDSP info. You may know the old Groucho Marx line from Duck Soup: "Clear? Why, a four year old child could understand this report!" Then as an aside: "run out and find me a four year old child. I can’t make head or tail of it." I feel that way with much so-called "technology." I get brain fog trying to understand tech-speak. Also, I guess I’ve always been rather old-school about audio: less is more.

I know that I’m hijacking my own thread but I’ll keep going, with a simple question. I’m curious to learn more about dsp, room eq, and bass management with a pair of subs. (I fooled around with Roon DSP but didn’t get very far.) I have a Bryston streamer and Bryston dac; they may not be the last word in electronics but they work just fine for me. I’ve been using a small green computer Sonictransporter, which also works fine for me. I mostly stream these days. Can you recommend a miniDSP product that would do what I want (room eq + subwoofer management/crossovers) without requiring me to swap out my dac, music player, or streaming computer? It looks to me like both the FLEX and the SHD or SHD STUDIO would be partly redundant and/or require me to rethink the sources in my system. Maybe the DDRC24 (with dac?) or DDRC22D? To be clear, I’m not asking for a tutorial, just a sign-post to direct me to the right product. From there, I can make my way. (I also can see that REL doesn’t play easily with miniDSP unless one foregoes the high-level cable connection. That is, it doesn’t look easy to control the speakers and subs independently with that high-level connection.) Again, at this point I'm just curious, so there's no need for long explanations. THANK YOU!

Edit: @jjss49 -- I just saw your post. I get it. I hear you. I’m with you! And ... I’m on it!

So, in my case these Rel’s exactly what I was looking for, just a bit more reach in lowest freq, and most impressively, the added sound stage ambience, greater recording venue information adds to an already impressive illusion of performers in room that horn speakers do like no other.

as @sns  states so well -- this is why we do this... it ain’t just about deep bass extension per se (and why stereo subs matter)

My take on subs is its far more about personal sound quality preferences, room, and main speakers than the subs themselves.

The fact is I've enjoyed the db or low level input type subs with certain recordings and times of day I chose to listen. And I did the obsession with measurements, crawl methods, dsp, interconnects, power cables thing. My issue was I could never get a wholly consistent perfectly coherent sound to my main speakers. Different recordings and volume levels always found me making fine adjustments to crossover and gain settings on subs. I'll admit coherency is amongst most important aspects of sound quality for me, this once I had single driver speakers in a bedroom system I used to run. The magical coherency I had with that setup sensitized me forever to  incoherency. I've also built my system for max transparency, resolution at relatively low volume listening settings.

Thus far in my admittedly limited listening sessions with the Rel's I've finally found subs that meet my need for coherency, I only hear my Klipschorns. I've no doubt this would not be everyone's cup of tea, they'd be asking where are the subs.

I've been done with subs for years, the Genesis sub and dsp still sits here unused and forlorn. Its only lately that I decided to give the Rel's a try, and this driven far more by the improvements in sound staging people reported vs bass augmentation. My Klipschorns in room response at my listening position certainly aren't bass shy what with my extreme attention to getting maximum seat to the walls, custom birch ply plate at top to get full seal,  non stock woofer and crossover. Only missing lowest octives with pipe organs, synth bass.

So, in my case these Rel's exactly what I was looking for, just a bit more reach in lowest freq, and most impressively, the added sound stage ambience, greater recording venue information adds to an already impressive illusion of performers in room that horn speakers do like no other.

In the end each person has to decide for themselves, based on parameters I mentioned above, what subs will work best for themselves. @northman , Only hearing a pair of T7x or 9x in your room and setup will provide the answer for you. I'd only suggest going to another low level input sub with dsp will require another intense setup procedure. If I were you I'd trial a pair of Rel t's and if they don't fit your needs only then move in another direction.

@northman 

Dirac Live even tells you where to put the microphone in pictograms. A 10 year old could do it. Again, I highly recommend outboard DACs such as the Benchmark units. I have had the MiniDSP SHD in my system and the overall sound was grainy. I had a conversation with the chief engineer at Benchmark who says they use the SHD Studio with their own DACs and the results are fabulous. I may head up to NY with the DEQX PRE 8 when it arrives as they are very interested in it. 

I use 2 "Q" series RELs in my main system...a Q150E and a Q108MK2. Each cost around 200 bucks each (used of course) maybe 10 years ago and are great sounding. If they die REL won't fix 'em but meh...they were so inexpensive I've really got my money's worth out of them. Made cables (easily) out of Canare and Neutriks.

to my earlier comments i would add, or should i say, re-emphasize:... to me, for maggie 1.7i (or up) owners, dual subs are a must if one intends on extracting the best musical qualities these truly wonderful speakers can produce

so 2x t7’s >> 1x t9 or 1x s510 as an example

Good subwoofers that have been properly set up will never call attention to themselves. The point of purchasing JL/Rythmik/Rel is they disappear and make it seem as though speakers simply have proper low end fullness and extension.

Please let us know your thoughts once you’ve decided on and configured whichever sub you do end up purchasing. The last Rel I had was the T7. It was paired with PMC OB1 speakers and it sounded fantastic and integrated seamlessly with plenty of kick/punch for my tastes. Drum n Bass, techno and house are among the genres I listen to so you best believe I’m critical and demanding when it comes to subsonic performance. Drum n Bass producers tend to know a thing or two about bass ;)

Thank you all--really. I value this site for the experience and knowledge of the community but sometimes there's too much talking and not enough listening. However, each of you in this thread has been thoughtful, insightful, and very helpful. Rather than feel overwhelmed, I am left with the conviction that there are a number of viable paths and workable options--even for the conundrum of Maggies + subwoofers.

@mijostyn -- thank you. I've spent a couple hours now learning about dsp, with particular attention to MiniDSP. "Idiot proof" is apparently what I need. I'm definitely interested. I will say that the explanations get very technical, very fast. 

@jeenam -- I hear you on Rythmik, and the appreciation/criticism of REL. I've read both many times, and I know that Rythmik has a stellar reputation out here. I'm going to look into them more, definitely. Thank you.

@sns -- yes, certainly, 95% of the time that philosophy is just exactly what I want. My experience with subwoofers is very limited but I'm inclined toward a pair as well. I know that the T/9X isn't really big in the world of subs, but I still wonder if a pair of them would be too much in my small room. (Also ... small budget.) For what it's worth, REL recommends the T/9 (single or double) with the 1.7is, the S series for the bigger Maggies. 

I've been smiling about @jjss49 's suggestion to get the T/7s and "be done." I know he's right, at least in the short term. But part of me wants to let this percolate a bit, try a few subs, bang my head against the DSP wall, and enjoy the ride a bit longer....

Again, thank you all!

@northman 

As I mentioned previously, I'm not seeking a sub that brings attention to itself, have had that in previous subs, my take is that type of sub is for home theater setups or bass heads. I want my subs to be invisible, simply an extension of my main speakers, so far this is exactly what the two Rel T9x are delivering. Totally seamless bass delivery is what I'm getting, couldn't be happier at this point. Right now I have the T9x crossover at aprox. 43hz with volume at 3 clicks (monoblock setup so volume aprox. double stereo amp), initial setup was aprox. 46hz, 3 clicks, this with modified Klipschorns. Room is 13'W x 30'L, absolutely no bass boom, and more importantly bass keeps up with Klipschorn bass. I've previously owned big subs, 15" to 18" woofers with and without dsp, while the Rel's don't reach down as deep as prior subs, and may not be as impressive with certain kinds of music, lets say EDM (electronic dance music), they outperform those subs in the ability to play fast, tuneful, and most importantly coherently with my main speakers. The Rel philosophy is maximizing coherency with main speakers, this is by far the most important single aspect I desire in subs, these Rel's are delivering thus far. I am using power cords specifically chosen for max transparency, speed, Oyaide R1 AC receptacle on same dedicated circuit as monoblocks, I will be experimenting with diy high level wire, already have some tin plated Duelund copper wire I need to hook up to Speakon connector, may try some Mundorf silver/gold wire in future, dc cables I made are awesome with this wire. Experimenting with PC's and high level cabling is worthwhile according to many Rel users.

My suggestion would be to try a pair of the X series, if you like Rel philosophy and sound qualities stick with them. I thought about the S series vs X, but they seem more oriented towards dual use as home theater and music system subs. I'd only add, the second Rel sub is a necessity for me, experimenting with running a single results in incoherent or un-centered sound stage, (monoblocks require the second for both channel bass). Adding the second also both speeds up and fills out bass.]

@northman I have yet to read on any forum where a Rythmik owner switched back to Rel. Rel makes great subs, and they are the reason I insist on having a sub with whatever system I’m using. Their use of speaker-level inputs to match the tone and voice of the source amplifier that is powering speakers makes perfect sense. Using the line input with subs does not allow for tone matching to the source amp. You’re left with whatever flavor the sub amp provides. For integration purposes, obviously not ideal.

My take on Rel now is that they’ve invested far too much in the ’lipstick and makeup’ without any appreciable increase in performance to justify their price increases. Rel had always priced their subs a bit high, but it’s gotten out of hand.

Rythmik on the other hand continues to focus on building great subs. The cabinets are plane jane, but last I checked the reason one buys a subwoofer is for sound, not looks. Most of the time people simply stuff their sub in the corner and essentially out of sight and out of mind.

Put simply, if Rythmik wasn’t around I’d still be buying Rel subs. But seriously, reach out to the owner of Rythmik and inquire about their subs. There are a number of F12/F12G subs available for sale on various classified sites such as Audiogon right now because people bought themselves new toys for the holidays and are unloading their used gear. If you decide to purchase new, I believe they have a 30 day return policy, minus shipping costs of course.

Edit: Forgot to mention I’ve been using the Rythmik F12 with Ascend Towers with the RAAL ribbon tweeters. The F12 is lightning fast and has no problem keeping up with the RAAL ribbons. The only subs I’d consider using would be made by JL Audio, Rythmik, and Rel, in that order. I remember about a decade back people were hyping up the Martin Logan subs so I purchased one (can’t recall which - it had a silver bass driver). I hooked it up and to my horror the first thought that came to mind was "This subwoofer is slow and sounds awful". The point is the majority of folks have no idea what a properly integrated subwoofer actually sounds like. Just look at the legions of people who swear by SVS or Hsu. You will NEVER find an SVS or Hsu sub in a professional mastering studio, but you will find there are quite a few that use Rythmik.

@northman 

The MiniDSP uses Dirac Live which is pretty idiot proof. The SHD is their full function preamp but the DACs are substandard. The SHD Studio is the same unit without DACs. Two Benchmark DACs and you are in business big time. The improvement in your systems performance will be nothing less than stunning. 

I have 2 T/9x's and believe in matched stereo pairs or quads for 2 channel systems.

In your case, I'd get 2 T/7s if you can't swing 2 T/9's.

@northman 

REL was having a sale on the S/510 when I bought it.  I think it was $2,200 plus 0% financing until 1/25.  The T/9x is $1,500.  I'm not trying to spend your money, but I got a great deal and a sub that's just perfect in my system.

Good luck.0

@jeenam -- Great stuff. A few others have also recommended Rythmik subs. I'm going to take a look and, ideally, a listen. It means opening the search up rather than narrowing it down, but that's a good thing (until it's not). Thank you.

@ronboco and @drlou77 -- thank you both. The S series could be just the ticket but it's quite a bit more expensive. I imagine it's brilliant.

@sslbun -- I loved your (first!) post. That Richter track is one of my favorites as well, and that moment when the bass comes in always makes me smile. It's something that needs to be felt. You have a major-league system and I appreciate that you stayed with the challenge until you got it right. I bet it sounds AMAZING.

Your post made me laugh because I have the exact same issue with the exact same track!  On the Nature of Daylight is one of my favorite test tracks along with Final Ascent from Hans Zimmer's No Time to Die soundtrack.  Right at 1:45 on Nature of Daylight, a wonderful deep musical bass comes in that you can feel in your bones. It's so so good.

I was using a Rel T/7X with my Dynaudio Confidence 50's, but on the recommendation of several people, I switched to dual Dynaudio Sub 6's which have presets that integrate perfectly with Confidence 50's.  Everything sounded much better except for On the Nature of Daylight. I tried a lot of tweaks including placement, boosting the volume on the subs, changing crossover frequency etc. Nothing worked. On a whim, I added back in the T/7X, and that same 'feeling' was back. I have both dials on the back of the T/7X set pretty low (in the 9 or 10 oclock position). I don't know why I didn't try it sooner - I guess I thought dual subs would be enough. But running the T/7X along with the dual Sub 6's makes such a difference to me that I'm going to keep it in the system. I might upgrade the T/7X down the line to a carbon special or No.31 but for now, I'm enjoying it.

For context my setup:
Electronics: Burmester 911 MK3/ 088 preamp/ 151 MK2 Musiccenter/ 948 pc/ Lyngdorf TDAI-3400.
Speakers: Dynaudio Confidence 50 with dual Sub 6's (and now the Rel T/7X)
Room: approx 240 sf

@northman 

I’m going to buck the trend.  My treated room is small, 11 x 14.  I have on REL S/510 with B&W 804s.  The sub is invisible in my room.  It’s tuned perfectly to integrate with my main speakers with Anthem’s Arc Genesis.  I don’t listen to organ music, but I can play the Dr. Chesky’s demo disc and get back to you.  I was going to get the T/9x, but it didn’t produce enough bass for music or movies.

How about RELs S series?

FWIW, Running Magnepan 1.7i with two REL T/7i

Small treated room (11x14).

I'm happy with the results, and I do enjoy classical music and classical organ, I played the organ (Wurlitzer) until it wouldn't fit in the house.  Should have bought the Hammond...

Tzero subs are not going to be able to output the lowest octave very loudly. As a former owner of multiple Rel subs (Storm III, R205, T5 and T7), I recommend looking into Rythmik subs. They will output down to 20Hz and they will integrate very well. Rythmik offers amplifiers with speaker level inputs so you can connect their subs the same way Rel recommends. This will allow you to preserve the tone of the amplifier that is driving your Maggies. Rythmik recommends using the line level RCA or balanced XLR, which is how most owners connect their subs. I opted for speaker level input to a Rythmik F12 due to gain mismatching with my 2-ch amp.

I’m still a fan of Rel, but Rythmik subs are a much better value at this point IMHO. You can purchase a used F12G for around the same price as a used T9i. The F12G will smoke the T9i in regards to output level, and it will do so cleanly down to 20Hz. An even better value would be their L12 sub. The difference between the F12 and L12 is minimal according to user reports.

@mijostyn 

Right on! Great to hear about the Smashing Pumpkins show, and good call on the ear protection. I looked into custom ear protection about a year ago but never followed up.

I no longer live in Boston but have moved on up ... to the west side ... and I now live in Vermont. I think I've only been to the "new" Garden once, to see the Stones on their 50th Anniversary tour, back when they were youngsters. I haven't forsaken music, though. After Jerry died, I eventually found my way to Phish (which is easy to do in VT) and have seen them many times at MSG. And I'll be back in Boston in a month for a classical concert at Jordan Hall. So the music never stopped...

I'm interested in dsp, but every time I look into it, I get overwhelmed. I do enjoy a project, though, and maybe it's time to take a harder look. I'm drawn to the miniDSP gear.

@northman 

Those days are not gone, just ...evolved. I saw Smashing Pumpkins at the Garden several months ago. Not only was it thunderous ( I had ear protection in) but the light show was INSANE. I have never seen anything that bright. Good to have Jimmy Chamberlin back. 

You still live in the Boston area?

The reason to use subwoofers particularly Dead Heads is to be able to create that concert feeling at less than ear shattering levels. They allow you to EQ the bass without affecting the main speakers. To do this a two way crossover is mandatory. Digital bass management is the best thing that has come along for subs since their introduction back in the late 70s. There are units from MiniDSP and dBx that are relatively inexpensive. A great inexpensive way to get into subs is to buy  Dayton Kits from Parts Express. Dayton makes great sub drivers. Their kits perform as well or better than 90% of the subwoofers out there. They won't be as fancy looking, but what is the mission?

Thanks, @jjss49 -- that's sage and practical advice, and I've been leaning that way. You're right about the used market; I've been keeping my eye out.

But what does "be done" mean? I've never heard that phrase out here.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful advice!

@northman

you are on the right track... i would say get a pair to t7’s and be done (in your smallish room you don't need 4 subs, two mismatched)... re-sell the tzero’s (they just don’t go deep enough to do the 1.7i’s justice, as you yourself have pointed out)

don’t ignore older i models t7i t9i from rel, they are excellent and can save $$ if you find them well cared for on the used market

@mijostyn , You "sat"? Haha. My most memorable bass experience ever was in the Phil Zone. Boston Garden. I felt like my throat was closing off, I could barely breathe. My friend turned to me with a look of wonder and small alarm. Gone are the days (though perhaps they can be reproduced in my small garret of a room?).

@northman 

I always sat in the Phil Zone. Getting Phil at home will require two 15" or four 12" drivers. A smaller sub setup will get that low, but at realistic levels there will be a lot of distortion. Great bass below 40 Hz at realistic levels levels with low distortion requires a lot more than the industry would have you believe. Another problem is most subwoofer enclosures are musical instruments, they shake and resonate. Play a sub at Phil levels and put your hand on it. What you are feeling is distortion.