Little help with REL subwoofers, please?

Classical organ can cycle very low. To reproduce frequencies below 40 Hz. takes insane amounts of power and when you factor in that our ears are not as sensitive to lower frequencies the task can become particularly difficult. I’m not sure that even the T9x  has the range or the power to deliver what you are looking for but even if it does I’m guessing that you will run into the same issue with that as you did with the JL sub. My opinion is the problem you experienced with the JL sub was not due to the sub but due to your room. The JL sub had enough power and range to reproduce the notes but in the process probably also excited room nodes at certain frequencies making the bass somewhat boomy and out of control. To deal with that issue you need either multiple subs, room treatments, some type of e.q. or some combination of the three.

Thanks, @audiorusty. I'm sure you're right about the room; I could never tame that JL, even with an external crossover, some room treatments, and all kinds of fussing. Boomy, as you say, and sluggish sounding.

I've read that multiple subwoofers don't need to match each other, but would those small REL Tzeros help "balance" something bigger like the T/9? 

I like my current sound ... I just want deeper bass, not "more" bass. I may just buy a T/9 or T/7 and add it to the mix. We'll see! 

I've tried a number of subs over the years, even with dsp could never get coherent sound with main speakers. With dsp the problem wasn't so much with boom, but rather timing with main speakers, always a step behind or slow, once heard could never be unheard.

So, buying into Rel philosophy I recently purchased two T9X, last night first listening session with them. So, first impressions, first time I've heard coherence from subs with main speaker! Improvement in sense of sound stage ambience most noticeable change. bass extension more subtle with my Klipschorns. Perhaps it was recordings I played last night, but there was no earth shaking, wall rattling bass, just a bit of extension and fullness on bottom end, really integrated well with my initial settings on crossover and level. This bass performance quite different from my Wyred 4 Sound Genesis clone sub, which has the more spectacular, impactful bass sound.

You can try a T9x or a T7x to see what happens. Hopefully you can get them on a trial basis. As long as neither sub can reproduce the offending frequency of the room with enough power you should be good to go, but if either of the subs can reproduce the offending frequency (standing wave) you will still have the same issue with boomy bass.

In a multi sub system, the subs do not need to be exactly the same but it is best if they all have a similar range. For example; lets say that one of your rooms standing waves is 29 Hz. if you have three or more subs placed around your room reproducing that 29 Hz. frequency, those wave forms will interfere with each other in such a way that the spots in the room where that 29 Hz. was loud will now be softer and where it was too quiet should now be louder, thus smoothing out the 29 Hz. peak throughout the room, making the room less boomy. IOW if one or more of the subs in your system cannot reproduce the offending frequency they cannot contribute to the solution.

Here is an article about room acoustics and boomy bass you may find helpful.

https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/listening-room-acoustics-1#_ftn2

Forget about specs. They are severely misleading. As you note deep bass is not about hearing, it is about feeling. In this regard there is no substitute for surface area. The minimum in most rooms is two 12" subs to get solidly down to 20 Hz. I want some usable output at 15 Hz Consequently, I use 8 12" drivers. Large venues breath at very low frequencies. There is also signal down that low in movies. So, live music recordings and movies require the same capabilities. One sub alone is never a good solution. Two 12" drivers, Four 12" or two 15", eight 12" or Four 15". The last group is the largest required in the usual residential situation. 2 way crossovers are mandatory, digital bass management with delay capability and room control will give the best performance. 

Thank you all. 

@sns: right on! I hope you do a follow-up post somewhere out here on your experience with the two T9s. 

@audiorusty, thank you--that may be the most accessible explanation of standing waves, and the link was very helpful. I especially appreciate your explanation of why having multiple subs with different ranges may not work as seamlessly as I had hoped.

@mijostyn, wow--I can only imagine the bass you're getting with that approach. I appreciate that you're thinking about live recordings and recreating the effect of large venues. I'm an old Deadhead and I can remember some "Phil bombs" that were unnerving in their effect. 

@northman      Which model JL Audio subwoofer did you use and how did you determine its exact position in your room? 

Not sure if the OP just ordered the T9's or not but I have tried them all in pairs and I was shocked at how much more I preferred the T5's over any of them simply because of their active down-firing and for even less money than a single T9 you can have a pair of 5's. Regardless of the stats claims, I preferred the T5's because the down-firing was just more impactful and far more effortless while the others had to work harder to produce bass impact. I just could never feel the same bass with the others. For pipe organs I would not expect the T zeros to deliver. There doesn't seem to be mention of floor material. Since my floors are hardwood, they generate their own resonance in a good way so I went with the Tzeros instead of the T5's. Despite claims of 12" subs, they are too slow for great musicality and on the rare occasions of pipe organ they may deliver but for overall music, there's just no need for all that in my experiences with music. If people are into thunderous bass for movies and stuff, I get it but for pure musicality, forget it. We have the Magnepan 1.7i's and LRS plus.

I had a JL E110. I had it dialed in pretty nicely in another room with other speakers. Moving into this smaller room and changing to the Maggies ... just didn't work. I used a CR-1; bass traps; the subwoofer crawl; and lots of different placement attempts. I thought it was a fine sub and super fun but I couldn't make it consistently work, especially for more demanding music. That's undoubtedly on me--but there comes a time to try something else. The two small RELs aren't in the same league as the JL but they sound much better! 

As is obvious, I not especially knowledgable about subwoofers or the physics of sound. Reading around the internet about Maggies and subs is dizzying. (I should add that I've owned Maggies on and off for thirty years.) I think I'm just going to have to take a leap and do some experimenting....

Classical organ music goes down to 16 Hz. That is a 32 foot organ pedal. The REL T series will not approach that type of response. 

Sure, I do understand that. My room is just a bit over 250 sq feet, so I'm not trying to reproduce St Patrick's Cathedral. I'd simply like to introduce some rumblier lows without creating new problems (or introducing new lows to my bank account). 

@northman  I hope you were able to return that $3K crossover for the $2K subwoofer. For about the same outlay the F110 would have been the way to go.

Equalization is what would have allowed you to easily enjoy that Organ pedal and the Cathedral regardless of main speakers or your room size. At -6dB no, their not even remotely in the same league.

At the bottom of it all one's satisfaction is paramount. All the best.    

Ha! Yes, the crossover was easily sold without a loss. I enjoyed having it; i's a neat piece of kit. I've always held off on equalization (if only because ... one more thing) but I hear you. Maybe the time has come. Any recommendations? 

@northman 

I always sat in the Phil Zone. Getting Phil at home will require two 15" or four 12" drivers. A smaller sub setup will get that low, but at realistic levels there will be a lot of distortion. Great bass below 40 Hz at realistic levels levels with low distortion requires a lot more than the industry would have you believe. Another problem is most subwoofer enclosures are musical instruments, they shake and resonate. Play a sub at Phil levels and put your hand on it. What you are feeling is distortion.

@mijostyn , You "sat"? Haha. My most memorable bass experience ever was in the Phil Zone. Boston Garden. I felt like my throat was closing off, I could barely breathe. My friend turned to me with a look of wonder and small alarm. Gone are the days (though perhaps they can be reproduced in my small garret of a room?).

@northman

you are on the right track... i would say get a pair to t7’s and be done (in your smallish room you don't need 4 subs, two mismatched)... re-sell the tzero’s (they just don’t go deep enough to do the 1.7i’s justice, as you yourself have pointed out)

don’t ignore older i models t7i t9i from rel, they are excellent and can save $$ if you find them well cared for on the used market

Thanks, @jjss49 -- that's sage and practical advice, and I've been leaning that way. You're right about the used market; I've been keeping my eye out.

But what does "be done" mean? I've never heard that phrase out here.

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful advice!

@northman 

Those days are not gone, just ...evolved. I saw Smashing Pumpkins at the Garden several months ago. Not only was it thunderous ( I had ear protection in) but the light show was INSANE. I have never seen anything that bright. Good to have Jimmy Chamberlin back. 

You still live in the Boston area?

The reason to use subwoofers particularly Dead Heads is to be able to create that concert feeling at less than ear shattering levels. They allow you to EQ the bass without affecting the main speakers. To do this a two way crossover is mandatory. Digital bass management is the best thing that has come along for subs since their introduction back in the late 70s. There are units from MiniDSP and dBx that are relatively inexpensive. A great inexpensive way to get into subs is to buy  Dayton Kits from Parts Express. Dayton makes great sub drivers. Their kits perform as well or better than 90% of the subwoofers out there. They won't be as fancy looking, but what is the mission?

@mijostyn 

Right on! Great to hear about the Smashing Pumpkins show, and good call on the ear protection. I looked into custom ear protection about a year ago but never followed up.

I no longer live in Boston but have moved on up ... to the west side ... and I now live in Vermont. I think I've only been to the "new" Garden once, to see the Stones on their 50th Anniversary tour, back when they were youngsters. I haven't forsaken music, though. After Jerry died, I eventually found my way to Phish (which is easy to do in VT) and have seen them many times at MSG. And I'll be back in Boston in a month for a classical concert at Jordan Hall. So the music never stopped...

I'm interested in dsp, but every time I look into it, I get overwhelmed. I do enjoy a project, though, and maybe it's time to take a harder look. I'm drawn to the miniDSP gear.

Tzero subs are not going to be able to output the lowest octave very loudly. As a former owner of multiple Rel subs (Storm III, R205, T5 and T7), I recommend looking into Rythmik subs. They will output down to 20Hz and they will integrate very well. Rythmik offers amplifiers with speaker level inputs so you can connect their subs the same way Rel recommends. This will allow you to preserve the tone of the amplifier that is driving your Maggies. Rythmik recommends using the line level RCA or balanced XLR, which is how most owners connect their subs. I opted for speaker level input to a Rythmik F12 due to gain mismatching with my 2-ch amp.

I’m still a fan of Rel, but Rythmik subs are a much better value at this point IMHO. You can purchase a used F12G for around the same price as a used T9i. The F12G will smoke the T9i in regards to output level, and it will do so cleanly down to 20Hz. An even better value would be their L12 sub. The difference between the F12 and L12 is minimal according to user reports.

FWIW, Running Magnepan 1.7i with two REL T/7i

Small treated room (11x14).

I'm happy with the results, and I do enjoy classical music and classical organ, I played the organ (Wurlitzer) until it wouldn't fit in the house.  Should have bought the Hammond...

How about RELs S series?

@northman 

I’m going to buck the trend.  My treated room is small, 11 x 14.  I have on REL S/510 with B&W 804s.  The sub is invisible in my room.  It’s tuned perfectly to integrate with my main speakers with Anthem’s Arc Genesis.  I don’t listen to organ music, but I can play the Dr. Chesky’s demo disc and get back to you.  I was going to get the T/9x, but it didn’t produce enough bass for music or movies.

Your post made me laugh because I have the exact same issue with the exact same track!  On the Nature of Daylight is one of my favorite test tracks along with Final Ascent from Hans Zimmer's No Time to Die soundtrack.  Right at 1:45 on Nature of Daylight, a wonderful deep musical bass comes in that you can feel in your bones. It's so so good.

I was using a Rel T/7X with my Dynaudio Confidence 50's, but on the recommendation of several people, I switched to dual Dynaudio Sub 6's which have presets that integrate perfectly with Confidence 50's.  Everything sounded much better except for On the Nature of Daylight. I tried a lot of tweaks including placement, boosting the volume on the subs, changing crossover frequency etc. Nothing worked. On a whim, I added back in the T/7X, and that same 'feeling' was back. I have both dials on the back of the T/7X set pretty low (in the 9 or 10 oclock position). I don't know why I didn't try it sooner - I guess I thought dual subs would be enough. But running the T/7X along with the dual Sub 6's makes such a difference to me that I'm going to keep it in the system. I might upgrade the T/7X down the line to a carbon special or No.31 but for now, I'm enjoying it.

For context my setup:
Electronics: Burmester 911 MK3/ 088 preamp/ 151 MK2 Musiccenter/ 948 pc/ Lyngdorf TDAI-3400.
Speakers: Dynaudio Confidence 50 with dual Sub 6's (and now the Rel T/7X)
Room: approx 240 sf

@jeenam -- Great stuff. A few others have also recommended Rythmik subs. I'm going to take a look and, ideally, a listen. It means opening the search up rather than narrowing it down, but that's a good thing (until it's not). Thank you.

@ronboco and @drlou77 -- thank you both. The S series could be just the ticket but it's quite a bit more expensive. I imagine it's brilliant.

@sslbun -- I loved your (first!) post. That Richter track is one of my favorites as well, and that moment when the bass comes in always makes me smile. It's something that needs to be felt. You have a major-league system and I appreciate that you stayed with the challenge until you got it right. I bet it sounds AMAZING.

@northman 

REL was having a sale on the S/510 when I bought it.  I think it was $2,200 plus 0% financing until 1/25.  The T/9x is $1,500.  I'm not trying to spend your money, but I got a great deal and a sub that's just perfect in my system.

Good luck.0

I have 2 T/9x's and believe in matched stereo pairs or quads for 2 channel systems.

In your case, I'd get 2 T/7s if you can't swing 2 T/9's.

@northman 

The MiniDSP uses Dirac Live which is pretty idiot proof. The SHD is their full function preamp but the DACs are substandard. The SHD Studio is the same unit without DACs. Two Benchmark DACs and you are in business big time. The improvement in your systems performance will be nothing less than stunning. 

@northman I have yet to read on any forum where a Rythmik owner switched back to Rel. Rel makes great subs, and they are the reason I insist on having a sub with whatever system I’m using. Their use of speaker-level inputs to match the tone and voice of the source amplifier that is powering speakers makes perfect sense. Using the line input with subs does not allow for tone matching to the source amp. You’re left with whatever flavor the sub amp provides. For integration purposes, obviously not ideal.

My take on Rel now is that they’ve invested far too much in the ’lipstick and makeup’ without any appreciable increase in performance to justify their price increases. Rel had always priced their subs a bit high, but it’s gotten out of hand.

Rythmik on the other hand continues to focus on building great subs. The cabinets are plane jane, but last I checked the reason one buys a subwoofer is for sound, not looks. Most of the time people simply stuff their sub in the corner and essentially out of sight and out of mind.

Put simply, if Rythmik wasn’t around I’d still be buying Rel subs. But seriously, reach out to the owner of Rythmik and inquire about their subs. There are a number of F12/F12G subs available for sale on various classified sites such as Audiogon right now because people bought themselves new toys for the holidays and are unloading their used gear. If you decide to purchase new, I believe they have a 30 day return policy, minus shipping costs of course.

Edit: Forgot to mention I’ve been using the Rythmik F12 with Ascend Towers with the RAAL ribbon tweeters. The F12 is lightning fast and has no problem keeping up with the RAAL ribbons. The only subs I’d consider using would be made by JL Audio, Rythmik, and Rel, in that order. I remember about a decade back people were hyping up the Martin Logan subs so I purchased one (can’t recall which - it had a silver bass driver). I hooked it up and to my horror the first thought that came to mind was "This subwoofer is slow and sounds awful". The point is the majority of folks have no idea what a properly integrated subwoofer actually sounds like. Just look at the legions of people who swear by SVS or Hsu. You will NEVER find an SVS or Hsu sub in a professional mastering studio, but you will find there are quite a few that use Rythmik.

@northman 

As I mentioned previously, I'm not seeking a sub that brings attention to itself, have had that in previous subs, my take is that type of sub is for home theater setups or bass heads. I want my subs to be invisible, simply an extension of my main speakers, so far this is exactly what the two Rel T9x are delivering. Totally seamless bass delivery is what I'm getting, couldn't be happier at this point. Right now I have the T9x crossover at aprox. 43hz with volume at 3 clicks (monoblock setup so volume aprox. double stereo amp), initial setup was aprox. 46hz, 3 clicks, this with modified Klipschorns. Room is 13'W x 30'L, absolutely no bass boom, and more importantly bass keeps up with Klipschorn bass. I've previously owned big subs, 15" to 18" woofers with and without dsp, while the Rel's don't reach down as deep as prior subs, and may not be as impressive with certain kinds of music, lets say EDM (electronic dance music), they outperform those subs in the ability to play fast, tuneful, and most importantly coherently with my main speakers. The Rel philosophy is maximizing coherency with main speakers, this is by far the most important single aspect I desire in subs, these Rel's are delivering thus far. I am using power cords specifically chosen for max transparency, speed, Oyaide R1 AC receptacle on same dedicated circuit as monoblocks, I will be experimenting with diy high level wire, already have some tin plated Duelund copper wire I need to hook up to Speakon connector, may try some Mundorf silver/gold wire in future, dc cables I made are awesome with this wire. Experimenting with PC's and high level cabling is worthwhile according to many Rel users.

My suggestion would be to try a pair of the X series, if you like Rel philosophy and sound qualities stick with them. I thought about the S series vs X, but they seem more oriented towards dual use as home theater and music system subs. I'd only add, the second Rel sub is a necessity for me, experimenting with running a single results in incoherent or un-centered sound stage, (monoblocks require the second for both channel bass). Adding the second also both speeds up and fills out bass.]

Thank you all--really. I value this site for the experience and knowledge of the community but sometimes there's too much talking and not enough listening. However, each of you in this thread has been thoughtful, insightful, and very helpful. Rather than feel overwhelmed, I am left with the conviction that there are a number of viable paths and workable options--even for the conundrum of Maggies + subwoofers.

@mijostyn -- thank you. I've spent a couple hours now learning about dsp, with particular attention to MiniDSP. "Idiot proof" is apparently what I need. I'm definitely interested. I will say that the explanations get very technical, very fast. 

@jeenam -- I hear you on Rythmik, and the appreciation/criticism of REL. I've read both many times, and I know that Rythmik has a stellar reputation out here. I'm going to look into them more, definitely. Thank you.

@sns -- yes, certainly, 95% of the time that philosophy is just exactly what I want. My experience with subwoofers is very limited but I'm inclined toward a pair as well. I know that the T/9X isn't really big in the world of subs, but I still wonder if a pair of them would be too much in my small room. (Also ... small budget.) For what it's worth, REL recommends the T/9 (single or double) with the 1.7is, the S series for the bigger Maggies. 

I've been smiling about @jjss49 's suggestion to get the T/7s and "be done." I know he's right, at least in the short term. But part of me wants to let this percolate a bit, try a few subs, bang my head against the DSP wall, and enjoy the ride a bit longer....

Again, thank you all!

Good subwoofers that have been properly set up will never call attention to themselves. The point of purchasing JL/Rythmik/Rel is they disappear and make it seem as though speakers simply have proper low end fullness and extension.

Please let us know your thoughts once you’ve decided on and configured whichever sub you do end up purchasing. The last Rel I had was the T7. It was paired with PMC OB1 speakers and it sounded fantastic and integrated seamlessly with plenty of kick/punch for my tastes. Drum n Bass, techno and house are among the genres I listen to so you best believe I’m critical and demanding when it comes to subsonic performance. Drum n Bass producers tend to know a thing or two about bass ;)

to my earlier comments i would add, or should i say, re-emphasize:... to me, for maggie 1.7i (or up) owners, dual subs are a must if one intends on extracting the best musical qualities these truly wonderful speakers can produce

so 2x t7’s >> 1x t9 or 1x s510 as an example

I use 2 "Q" series RELs in my main system...a Q150E and a Q108MK2. Each cost around 200 bucks each (used of course) maybe 10 years ago and are great sounding. If they die REL won't fix 'em but meh...they were so inexpensive I've really got my money's worth out of them. Made cables (easily) out of Canare and Neutriks.

@northman 

Dirac Live even tells you where to put the microphone in pictograms. A 10 year old could do it. Again, I highly recommend outboard DACs such as the Benchmark units. I have had the MiniDSP SHD in my system and the overall sound was grainy. I had a conversation with the chief engineer at Benchmark who says they use the SHD Studio with their own DACs and the results are fabulous. I may head up to NY with the DEQX PRE 8 when it arrives as they are very interested in it. 

My take on subs is its far more about personal sound quality preferences, room, and main speakers than the subs themselves.

The fact is I've enjoyed the db or low level input type subs with certain recordings and times of day I chose to listen. And I did the obsession with measurements, crawl methods, dsp, interconnects, power cables thing. My issue was I could never get a wholly consistent perfectly coherent sound to my main speakers. Different recordings and volume levels always found me making fine adjustments to crossover and gain settings on subs. I'll admit coherency is amongst most important aspects of sound quality for me, this once I had single driver speakers in a bedroom system I used to run. The magical coherency I had with that setup sensitized me forever to  incoherency. I've also built my system for max transparency, resolution at relatively low volume listening settings.

Thus far in my admittedly limited listening sessions with the Rel's I've finally found subs that meet my need for coherency, I only hear my Klipschorns. I've no doubt this would not be everyone's cup of tea, they'd be asking where are the subs.

I've been done with subs for years, the Genesis sub and dsp still sits here unused and forlorn. Its only lately that I decided to give the Rel's a try, and this driven far more by the improvements in sound staging people reported vs bass augmentation. My Klipschorns in room response at my listening position certainly aren't bass shy what with my extreme attention to getting maximum seat to the walls, custom birch ply plate at top to get full seal,  non stock woofer and crossover. Only missing lowest octives with pipe organs, synth bass.

So, in my case these Rel's exactly what I was looking for, just a bit more reach in lowest freq, and most impressively, the added sound stage ambience, greater recording venue information adds to an already impressive illusion of performers in room that horn speakers do like no other.

In the end each person has to decide for themselves, based on parameters I mentioned above, what subs will work best for themselves. @northman , Only hearing a pair of T7x or 9x in your room and setup will provide the answer for you. I'd only suggest going to another low level input sub with dsp will require another intense setup procedure. If I were you I'd trial a pair of Rel t's and if they don't fit your needs only then move in another direction.

So, in my case these Rel’s exactly what I was looking for, just a bit more reach in lowest freq, and most impressively, the added sound stage ambience, greater recording venue information adds to an already impressive illusion of performers in room that horn speakers do like no other.

as @sns  states so well -- this is why we do this... it ain’t just about deep bass extension per se (and why stereo subs matter)

Thanks again, all. Although I realize that we’re talking about a relatively modest purchase here,I still feel lucky to be considering the options. I don’t need any convincing about pairing subs; that’s my plan. And I’m going to buy new, with the option to return, though I can see the Rythmik "Christmas" F12 for sale out here. I’ve learned the hard way that it’s important for me to try before committing.

@mijostyn , I’ll keep looking over the MiniDSP info. You may know the old Groucho Marx line from Duck Soup: "Clear? Why, a four year old child could understand this report!" Then as an aside: "run out and find me a four year old child. I can’t make head or tail of it." I feel that way with much so-called "technology." I get brain fog trying to understand tech-speak. Also, I guess I’ve always been rather old-school about audio: less is more.

I know that I’m hijacking my own thread but I’ll keep going, with a simple question. I’m curious to learn more about dsp, room eq, and bass management with a pair of subs. (I fooled around with Roon DSP but didn’t get very far.) I have a Bryston streamer and Bryston dac; they may not be the last word in electronics but they work just fine for me. I’ve been using a small green computer Sonictransporter, which also works fine for me. I mostly stream these days. Can you recommend a miniDSP product that would do what I want (room eq + subwoofer management/crossovers) without requiring me to swap out my dac, music player, or streaming computer? It looks to me like both the FLEX and the SHD or SHD STUDIO would be partly redundant and/or require me to rethink the sources in my system. Maybe the DDRC24 (with dac?) or DDRC22D? To be clear, I’m not asking for a tutorial, just a sign-post to direct me to the right product. From there, I can make my way. (I also can see that REL doesn’t play easily with miniDSP unless one foregoes the high-level cable connection. That is, it doesn’t look easy to control the speakers and subs independently with that high-level connection.) Again, at this point I'm just curious, so there's no need for long explanations. THANK YOU!

Edit: @jjss49 -- I just saw your post. I get it. I hear you. I’m with you! And ... I’m on it!

MiniDSP is my vote for room correction solution.

You'll need a microphone as well for measurements.

@jeenam 

The SHD and SHD studio come with a UMIK 1, but as an upgrade they offer UMIK 2 which is highly recommended. Your corrections can be no better than your measurements.

@northman 

Can you follow the directions on a can opener? 

Message received, @mijostyn! As long as the can opener doesn't require an app, I'm good. 

@jeenam: thank you. I'm not sure how far I'll take any of this, but I'll explore the territory for as long as it's fun.

Again, thank you to everyone who replied. I feel encouraged by all the excellent advice. 

sorry @northman i don’t mean to beat a dead horse 🤣

enjoy the process and let us know what you end up doing...

by your username it doesn’t sound like you are near northern california, but if on the off chance you are, i currently have pairs of t9i, t9x, strata, s510... you would be welcome to borrow a pair to try

Update on my experience with the T9x, last night's listening session relatively large expansion of sound stage, and bass starting to loosen up and gaining in impact. These improvements due to burning in of every single component from 10/2 Romex tie in to monoblock amps dedicated circuit, AC receptacle, power cords, T9x and high level cable. Really in awe of the extent of this ss expansion, I've gained less from far more expensive equipment changes in past. For years I've considered my Klipschoen's ss couldn't be bettered, life size three dimensional images, great organization and focus such that individualization of each performer easily heard. Take the subs out and ss collapses, absolutely amazing! I'm now considering how a pair of Rel Reference could improve upon TX performance, may step up to these if my room can handle it. Other amazing thing is only one click crossover change since sub installation, seems these may be set it and forget it subs, no more of those constant  fine tuning changes that drove me crazy with past subs! I also expect further improvements with experimentation with high level cabling. Obviously, Rel philosophy has won me over.

@jjss49, that's incredibly generous of you! I'm in Vermont, so not quite local, but I greatly appreciate the thought. I took a look at your impressive system(s) and I can imagine borrowing all kinds of things from you! 

@sns, it's great to hear about your listening session. Fantastic. My own listening sessions have started to feel a little less amazing lately, coincidentally right around the time that I launched this thread. Go figure.

Ishmael, recognizing that the book we call Moby-Dick is but a draft, a draft of a draft, says, "God keep me from ever completing anything ... Oh, Time, Strength, Cash, and Patience!" That pretty much sums up the audiophile world to me....

For what it's worth, I just downloaded the REW and ordered the umik-1. As I said above, I'm curious. In the meantime, happy listening to y'all.

T series subs not fast enough and made in china I would get 2 S/510’s. Remember even if Maggie’s are affordable they need the very best in electronics and subs for much more expensive speakers to actually work right.

@pennfootball71 I don't hear any sense of these being slow thus far. I suspect Rel subs very difficult to make generalizations about since main speakers and amps have relatively large influence on how subs perform. So far, with my Klipschorns, the T9x has virtually no impact on bass performance per se, don't really reach lower, just a bit of db boost in freq. where in room response at my listening position begins to roll off. These all about sound stage expansion for me.

Going into Rel purchase,  speed was of utmost concern for me, assumed these might be slow. Using this reasoning I partnered with Ac receptacle and power cords that I know supply fast, tight bass, considering silver high level speakon wire if I hear some slowing in future.

If these are slow, my past subs and present Genesis sub would be slower than slow, even with dsp slower than high level circuit in these Rels. I'm also open to the fact that over time I may hear some sense of slowness, why I may wish to upgrade to Reference models at some point.

Such rubbish, no data and based 100% on this KH opinion. 
 

T series subs not fast enough and made in china I would get 2 S/510’s. Remember even if Maggie’s are affordable they need the very best in electronics and subs for much more expensive speakers to actually work right.

Rel S and Ref series are faster on specs, issue is whether one hears T as slow, if not than there is no problem. Same with Maggie's, I've heard them with a variety of medium to high end electronics, always enjoyed the sound qualities of these speakers.

 Generalizations aren't worth much in this highly subjective and individualistic hobby/obsession. And criticisms of China made components are political, what does that have to do with sound quality?  Furthermore, virtually all audio electronics have China made components within.

i am holding out for a subwoofer made in an islamic country myself, so it can synergize with my flying persian rug 😂🤣😅😉😆

wtf

@northman

Integrating a subwoofer with fast Magnepans can be very difficult with "conventional" subwoofers.

Things that help

- sealed sub

- smallest driver possible that can still give 20 hz and below bass extension (i.e. serve as a "subwoofer")

- Servo controlled "fast" driver (if possible)

2 possible options emerge, that could work better for your application...

a) Rythmik FM8, smaller dual 8 inch drivers, that have Rythmik’s servo control support.

https://www.rythmikaudio.com/FM8.html

b) KEF KC62 (dual small, fast 6.5 inch drivers, no servo support however)

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_991KC62T/KEF-KC62-Titanium-Grey.html?tp=187

Note: Both these small subwoofers can give you bass extension under 20 hz (i.e. these are unique offerings). Both can also serve as midbass units, if needed, If you have multiple subs set up around you, you won’t be able to localize much by increasing crossover frequencies. You could also try shooting for relatively "nearfield" locations to your listening position with small subs (to add increased perception of tactile impact/feeling of growl, thunder).

There are many other "small subwoofers" out there, but, there is no point in getting a small crappy subwoofer that just gets down to 45, 50 Hz.