Linear tracking turntables, whatever happened?
@clearthink- Have you owned, possessed and used a linear tracking arm for any length, duration or period of time? I'm curious, wondering and eager to know whether your view, opinion and position on these arms is based on experience, involvement and actuality, since my ownership, use and experience has not really required, mandated or necessitated ongoing adjustments, alterations or calibrations. Thank you, regards and salutations, |
Here in Seattle our marquee high end dealer is Definitive Audio. Their founding location on Roosevelt has the flagship clearaudio turntable, linear tracking arm, and cartridge, feeding a host of similarly ultra-high end components terminating in a pair of Wilsons, sorry I forget the model. I just can't get my brain worked up that hard for stuff that doesn't sound good. And this was the worst most expensive (well over $600k and no that is not a misprint, well over a half a Doctor Evil voice MILLION dollars) pile of audio assault I've ever heard. Sorry, but I was only able to remember the other gear long enough to do a web search and come up with the $600k. Because I knew it had to be a phenomenal waste of money. But just how pornographically obscene I could hardly believe even after adding it all up. But wait! Sorry! Almost forgot! That doesn't include speaker cables, interconnects, power cords, or power line conditioner! Actually it was probably a cool MILLION dollars worth of audiophool bling. Linear tracking is one of those things people can think of, that seems like it should be better, just look at all the fancy engineering. Only its not. For proof look no further than the nearby current thread where everyone so far is chiming in saying the same thing, tracking distortion from cartridge alignment just don't matter. Which just happens to be the be-all reason for linear tracking arms. A fool and his money.... will find their way to Definitive.... and linear tracking tone arms. They may not have died and disappeared. But they should have. |
Oh dear ... your TT/TA combo must be absolutely fantastic, Terry. Air bearing platter and TA - Ö - Reminds me of the Dr. Forsell´s Air Reference way back in 1990 and sounded just great ... oh those were the days ... I use maglev bearing on the spindle inspired by Vic´s Salvation deck. For a ridiculous price : ) Extended manifold by epoxied (!) extension. Just like that. Brilliant. Well, frankly I have´t even thought that supported manifold makes a significant improvement to the sound itself as the floating saddle evens height derivations on micro level scale + that most records are really concave discs ? And I have always just found it funny to watch cartridge swaying up and down and side to side on warped and eccentric discs : ~ ). As the cantilever/stylus remains straight & steady and the sound is still incredible compared to what I have had earlier. Terminator can handle very severe warps and folds with ease. Are you saying that supported manifold is a serious improvement ? As for damping the arm base, you are probably right, it doesn´t need damping material due to air cushion really. You use Moongel as damping ? Well that´s great, I may buy some : ) Thanks, it´s been a sheer pleasure talking to you. |
millercarbon Well, here is the picture that represents your Definitive Audio to the world. . https://www.definitive.com/ See any problems ? I have found that whenever there are issues with what one is hearing, it usually comes down to at least one of the following areas. The Room Setup <<<<<----->>>>> B Type Personality Audio Gear Setup <<<<<----->>>>> One's Hearing Ability. ********************************************************************** The complicated part "IS" that they are all inter-related ********************************************************************** Hopefully everyone understands why you can't have one without the other. |
dorkwad
Ya know... I consider myself an obsessed audiophile (I go through phases). But the above sounds, even to me, utterly insane. I can't imagine buying in to a system with that amount of bother attached to it. Whenever I think I go to far in pursuing this hobby....other audiophiles remind me: there are levels. ;-) I admire your dedication dorkwad. |
Prof I did not want to really comment as the dedication is to be admired for sure. But if air bearing is the only real way to make a linear tracker work at its best then it absolutely is not for myself either! However that is not to detract from the concept or to those who do have the dedication and conviction to see it through to the end. Just not my cup of tea though. |
I really don't get it. Air bearing arms are not hard to set up at all (as long as you have a good design that is fully adjustable) and running them is not complicated, either. There is virtually no maintenance required after the initial setup with the exception of changing the air filter every few years (or sooner depending on how often you use it). Most people work much harder switching amps, cables, tubes, etc. |
Not much demand for it these days apparently, though I tend to agree linear tacking is a very desirable approach in theory for tracking a record but it has to be realized well in a product that people have good reason to buy. Although turntables have achieved more of a presence of late than for many years prior, it is still a relatively small and very competitive niche market it seems compared to when linear tracking models reached their peak (still a very small niche even then). I’d even go so far to say that handling a tonearm manually is one of things that people associate with vinyl and contributes to its appeal for many. |
Dear Millercarbon, Thank you for "telling it like it is". I've never heard those gaudy products all together in one system, but I can imagine that I might agree with you, if I were to audition that system. However, let's do keep in mind that the Clearaudio turntable uses a Souther-type tonearm, described by me in an earlier post. In fact, I think Clearaudio bought the patent rights from Souther in order to incorporate his ideas into their products. In my opinion (and I stress that this is ONLY an opinion), the Souther design, where the cartridge is carried on what amounts to only a headshell which rides in a gravity-dependent fashion on a rail strung across the LP surface, has many issues. Not the least of which is that any irregularity in the LP surface has a large effect upon VTA, due to the very short distance between the stylus and the headshell pivot point. My point is that I would not throw the SL tracking baby out with the Clearaudio bath water. SL tracking done well does have merit. I think air bearing is the way to go, but like many others who joined this thread, I chose not to bother with the air pumps, filters, and noise that come with air bearing tonearms. I do recognize that by choosing to use only pivoted tonearms, I am accepting one set of problems for another. |
Ketchup It was not really the setup of an air bearing arm I was referring to. But more over all the attendant hardware, lines, pumps, etc and the noise however slight from a pump( unless you can set the pump up in another area?). Just my choice , which is why I started this thread as I am intrigued by the concept of linear tracking but sans air setup. |
^^^^ It´s actually child´s play after a while. Oh, I did forgot the air filter altogether, but it lasted for ten years LOL Terry, you are welcome. Yes, I run Vic´s Salvation motor (implementation for my setup) on soapstone plinth + maglev is very steady due its dense magnetic field created by powerful opposing neodymium magnets with very small gap. Again inspired by Vic´s experimenting at the same time. Another simple brilliant idea from him as it just works. The same with his obvious path to maglev feet shortly after. As for your tweak I think I get the picture .....Fascinating. I may have a few questions still. Here on A´gon there´s too much confusion ... and businessmen drink their wine and smoke fat cigars ... Can we discuss somewhere else, maybe you are in other forums ? Or from another, better world ( : _) |
Trans-Fi tonearm works with low pressure. An aquarium pump is recommended. I run mine at 20-30mm of Hg, that is about 0.5 psi. Low pressure means no issues with oil or condensate or maintenance. High pressure (for my TT) does mean maintenance, but industrial accessories and connectors limit that to an hour a month. |
Understanding these design differences will go a long way towards setup of both tonearms. If anyone is toasting carts on an ET2 they have no idea how to set it up.@ct0517 Looking back on it, I think you are right. |
@terry9---say, what pump do you use with your Terminator? Have you also incorporated a "surge" tank? Just a regular ol' 1 gallon plastic jug? I'm about to mount my Terminator (which I had Vic fit with the last of his silver wire, straight to a pair of WBT RCA plugs) on a VPI Aries 1 I got specifically for use with the arm. |
I use a HiBlo pump from Pets&Ponds. Model 60 I believe (massively overspecced because I planned to use low pressure for other uses). I use a 1 gal plastic jug filled with cotton balls, with a long piece of perforated plastic tube feeding air to the inside of the jug. Then a Fairchild precision regulator and a medical blood pressure gauge to get me down to the 10-50 mm of Hg range (sub 1 psi). I finish with a 5 gal Jerry can surge tank. Vic's silver wire is very nice - very pliable, very euphonic. I use ETI connectors myself. |
Vic´s silver wire is VERY pliable but his stock has run out long time ago. Extremely difficult to locate unfortunately. Currently he uses copper litz which is a superb substitute. Some people prefer it as wiring is a matter of taste in sound quality. For me personally silver is the only to go for best SQ. Stiffer silver wires are very difficult to adjust and probably is a mission impossible to work all the way from run-ins to run-outs. As Terry the Improver said already, wire tension is the biggest challenge with linear trackers. Terry, maybe you could send me your email thru A´gon ? |
@mhmeyers – Thanks for that! I'm glad to see that someone got around to talking about the Beogram 4002. Early in my audiophile days I owned one, coupled with a Bryston amp, Apt Holman pre-amp, and Magnepan Tympani III-A speakers. The turntable was excellent, and beautiful. I switched to CD long ago, but still have very fond memories of that component. |
Back in my linear-tracking days I would have initially believed the people who said it's a problem-free solution to record playing issues. My ET-2 worked perfectly and I loved it. Then I sold table and arm when a "good deal" presented itself in the form of a VPI TNT Mk. II and an identical ET-2, this one including a Wisa pump and Airtech surge tank. This one had no end of problems. I drove poor Bruce Thigpen crazy as we tried and failed to trouble-shoot what was wrong. Turned out the Wisa pump was defective AND the Airtech leaked air but by the time I discovered that, I was heartily sick of the whole linear-tracking concept and never went back. |
@whipsaw Great to see and hear from another 4002 fan. Granted, they are complicated machines but once sorted they are fantastic and trouble free. Really nothing to go "wrong" except the belts. They sound good enough that clients have hired me to find and restore one for them. Their beauty is also a tremendous "hook".... Such an elegant design.... I'll continue to bring them back to life whenever they come my way. |
I still use my Phase Linear 8000 table from time to time, works great (over 30 years old). After Phase Linear stopped making them, Pioneer marked the same table under their name. The dealer had it set up to A/B with a $10,000.00 setup. Did the $10,000.00 system sound better? Yes. Was it over $9000.00 better? Not to me (the Phase Linear was $750.00 at the time). It still sounds great to me. https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7842/31760371087_a1d3b7c7d8_b.jpg |
Very happy 20 yrs + user of a linear tracker, the great ET2, here. First, while he has mentioned his thread, I think it should be stressed what a great resource ct0517’s thread is; not just for users of the ET2 to learn about proper setup and to get “outside the box” practical tips, but for anyone contemplating “going linear”. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/eminent-technology-et-2-tonearm-owners By the time that I acquired my ET2 I had owned and lived with several pivoting arms including the SME V, Grado Sig, Sumiko The Arm, Premier MMT, Alphason and Syrinx PU3 (only one I still have). I have used more different cartridges than I can remember of both the MM and MC type and I consider myself fairly adept at tonearm setup, but far from a perfectionist in that respect. I still own several of those cartridges from way back and none have suffered cantilever or suspension issues due to use on the ET2. There is no question that living with a linear tracker is more complicated than using a pivoting arm for the reasons already mentioned. However, once set up, I did not experience at all the need for constant fiddling and one of the beauties of this arm is that it makes the rare need for relevelling so easy. Which brings up what I feel is one great advantage of an arm like the ET2; I can’t speak for any other linear tracker as I have never owned any other. The ease with which the various setup parameters can be adjusted makes getting the best out of a cartridge infinitely easier in my experience. VTA on the fly is a miracle and I think many would be shocked at just how much just this one feature of the arm helps. For me, the most important advantage of the arm is that, compared to all the pivoting arms that I have used, there is a fundamental difference in its sonic presentation that I find to be more realistic both tonally and in the way it portrays the soundstage. All those pivoting arms always left me with the impression that the shape of the soundstage and it’s boundaries were dictated by the arm and not necessarily what was recorded. None of them came close to conveying the sense of wide open ambience and stable layering of instruments that the ET2 is capable of conveying. The size of intruments and voices relative to each other always seemed distorted to one degree or another by the pivoting arms compared to the ET2 which tended to sound more realistic in that regard. I also experienced far fewer instances of having a cartridge which had a tonal flaw that I could not live with which I could not make livable by adjusting setup parameters; adjustments which were typically far more difficult or impossible with the pivoting arms. A very condensed account of my experiences only and I have no interest in presenting them as definitive; just one more bit of support for linear trackers. Happy New Year to all. |
Fully understand what Frogman means by "... fundamental difference in sonic presentation ... more realistic both tonally and ... in ... soundstage ... wide open ambience and stable layering of instruments ... sounded more realistic ..." Well said. IMO in short, the best linear trackers produce less artificial sounds and more music. They are not perfect yet but very close. |
I have owned only B+O linear trackers over the last 40 years and have been very happy with them. Very elegant looking, simple to operate, no fiddling and extraordinary sound. I started with the original 4000, I believe it was called. I modified the arm to take a conventional moving coil cartridge and was very happy until the TT finally expired. I replaced it with a TX2 which has some issues, due to its lightness but which were resolved with proper feet and the use of sorbethane as damping on the body and even the platter. Sorbethane is much underated because it is widely misused. I use small , thickm dense sorb, glued in place and covered with layers of tape so that it acts as 'constrained damping.' This makes it far more effective than the usual sorbothane footers. The B&O cartridges are no slouch With the TX2 I bought the second most TOL model that B&O sold and find it more than a match for my older moving coil. |
Sat down to read Stereophile and one of the first articles was of a new tangential tracking pivoted arm. Made by Klaudio and coming in at either 9k or 12k it looks like a major mechanical Marvel. Some other brands of current production tangential arms noted were; Bergmann , Clearaudio, Kuzma , Reed, Schroeder, Thales, etc. Still very much alive today. https://klaudio.com/tangential-tonearm-12-inch-equivalent-kd-arm-ag12 |
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As little more than a long haired child back in the day a neighbor had many Citroen, including an XM that he bought new, circa 1972? His son, my age, used to borrow it and we'd drive it for the regular boring routine that teenagers had back then --the carpets were deeply padded, it had a purple cast to the windows and of course that hydraulic suspension. (I can't remember if the headlights pivoted, i thought those got outlawed at some point in the States). It had a nice engine burble, but subdued. I'd hate to have to restore one of those today. Maybe a Pallas D Decapotable by Chapron? |
Ah, I meant the SM, not the XM. Thanks for forcing me to check, @cleeds https://ateupwithmotor.com/contentfiles/uploads/1972_Citroen_SM_front.jpg |
Interesting comments here on LT tables. After going turntable-less for about 14 years, and had previously owned a couple of LP12’s and Well Tempered Labs(which I still highly rate), I bought a Holbo linear tracking, air-bearing turntable system last July. This turntable for one, does not look like an oil rig that some LT units resemble, is fairly simple and straight forward design. It uses a simple low pressure pump that is for all purposes extremely quiet, so much so, it sits on the lower shelf of my equipment/TT stand. I certainly do not hear it running! While setup of arm azimuth can be a little fiddly, it really takes no more patience than any pivoted arm. This arm, as well as the platter are supplied air from the pump, it all works really well, keep it all level, and keep the main arm air bearing shaft clean, you are good to go. I haven’t had any of the fiddliness and constant adjustment stuff talked about above, so no clue about that. The best of all, this table just makes great music, and that with my using a very cheap, entry level MM cartridge, a Nagaoka MP110. Yes, this part will be my focus of this new year, a new cartridge upgrade. Also, Bostjan Holc of Holbo has been fantastic to work with-I have no affiliation etc. with said gentleman, but prior to US distribution here in the US, we worked together to get the table here, and he has quickly answered my concerns, setup questions etc. By the way, Holbo is now distributed by Jeff at High Water Sounds, NYC. I am always interested to hear the varying takes on the technologies and design that goes into products, and like anything, many debates over what is best or worse, and why. Yet really, as is said, many ways to skin the cat, and in the end, what can one “hear”-or not, that which makes one technology better than the other(s). Like pivoted versus linear, they both exist for their varying reasons. The main thing is that the product is well engineered, reliable, and most of all, sounds good and does what it is supposed to do! I love this turntable, it was a huge stretch for me to get back to vinyl after all these years, but I am glad I made that stretch! So all, enjoy your pivoted arms or your Linear trackers, they all have their merits, but most of all, enjoy the music! If you do get the chance though, give a Holbo a listen, you just might like it! Have fun all, now back to music.... |
Hi i have now been tunning with my VYGER: Indian signature where there is a Visio carbon linear tonearm for many years now. It runs great and with almost no problems . Aditional i also have a DaVincy : Grandesse Ref 12” radial tonearm which also is a very good tonearm. For linear tracking you need a somehow stiff cartridge <10 to manage the horisontal forces that mainly comes from excentric rekords. If you want to play loud and realistic i beleave the linear tracking has huge advantages, as the distorsion is remarkebel lower. If the record already have had a life on a radial tonearm you can actually hear it. Maybee they will live longer if only played via a linear tonearm, if it is correct set up. So should also the needle on your cartridge. Enrico from VYGER has updates the air/vacum pump mk4, as well as the motor controller to a very very high level, so noise or heat ( watercoled) isent really a problem. However the Thales tonearms does also solve the trackingerror problem and maybee in a more easy way but i have no expirience with these yet. ( is on the wish list ) regards Thastum |
As and ET 2.0 owner for 25 years (Upgraded to 2.5 10 years ago), I have a few observations. One - it is difficult to completely dial in. That being said after using the Feickert app for azimuth and fine tuning by ear, I've not made any further adjustments to setup parameters in the last six months, other than tiny tracking weight adjustments. I'm just playing records and hearing, as best as I can tell, using a Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC through a Herron VTPH-2a phono stage, virtually all the information in the grooves. Getting the stylus to exactly match the location and angle of the cutting lathe chisel may be impossible, but unlike a pivoted tonearm, with it's guaranteed tracking error, at least you have a chance. Two - Pump problems can be solved if you can find room for a 20 gallon shop compressor. Mine is about 30 feet away in another room connected to the tonearm via 1/4" hose. I turn the compressor on until it fully charges to about 115 PSI. I then turn it off. That gives me around 2 to 2.5 hours of listening time as the tank drains, where the regulated pressure at the tonearm is 12 psi. If I'm still listening, I just turn it the compressor on again for a recharge, which takes about 4 minutes. The setup includes a moisture trap, but there has never been any moisture in the line, ever. For several years I switched to an oil based compressor, also in the other room. It was only 3 gallons and was very quiet, so I could leave it on, and it would switch on as necessary. Over time, it started leaking oil that traveled all the way to the tonearm spindle and jammed it up. I cleaned the spindle with MEK and went back to the big compressor and I've had zero problems since. Having heard digital dubs from a Caliburn TT, I do know that where my setup falls short is in conveying the forward momentum / punch that a cost no object drive system brings to the table. But that's not the tonearm's fault. Other than that, 50 years into this hobby, I'm more in awe of what LP's are capable of than ever. It's like sitting at a mixing console, where you can choose to follow any component from the kick drum to triangles to the subtlest background vocals. |
All this posting got me fiddling with my rabco st 7 with a BO 20en Mmc. Been sitting 20 years it works but arm leads the notch tried adjusting it but have noticed the tracking wheel is a soft compound looks like it’s got grease in it actually. Not sure if it’s degraded and I need to replace it or get it serviced but not sure where to turn to. Parts might not be available like to listen to my records again Any suggestions are appreciated Bob |
Right near the end of the TT era before CD's took over the Japanese made some very nice high end LT tables. I have several, a Technics SL-M3, a Yamaha PX-3 and a Pioneer PL-L1000. My favorite is the Technics SL-M3. Super specs for wow and flutter and it's really cool to watch the arm tracking in operation. It's true that the arm has to go off center a tiny amount before the drive pulls it back in line again. There is a feed motion on the arm about once per revolution so since the grooves are about 0.003 to 0.004 of an inch apart it is never more that that far from being perpendicular from the groove. I don't think anything tracks that close and since the arm pivots it never loads the cantilever. Think about that, the stylus moves 0.003 of an inch towards the center and the tone arm is driven towards the center by a like amount. These units were very expensive in the day and CDP were taking the world by storm. The three units above were the last hurrah by the Japanese before giving up on TT manufacturing. Find one of these units and have it serviced for years of trouble free operation. There is nothing inherently wrong with LT TT, they were just introduced to late in the game. Technically they are much better that a swinging tone arm that spends most of it's time way out of alignment. BillWojo |
thastum thastum Well, sir, you have managed in one sentence to summarize why I and many others still use linear tracking as the preferred way to play our records. Unfortunately your statement will go "over the head" of those on this thread (the Cons) who did not "walk the walk", and do the comparison in their own room if they own a resolving system. The key words being "did not" - IMO, they have more chance in todays world of going all digital today than record playing "linear". ************** I had an interesting experience some years ago. A prominent Audiogon member sent me a Cd, yes a CD remember those ? It was a recording using a specific cartridge. I then played that same music, using the same cartridge in my system with the linear tracker. The presentation was with the linear tracker very different, more realistic; it lacked the "music borders" that Frogman mentioned on this thread in describing the pivot arm. Now understand there was nothing wrong at all with the presentation of music using the pivot arm presentation. The first time I heard it... it sounded very good. And if I had not heard the linear tracker version, I would have been fine with it. But I had.... And that is the reason there is a pump and airline. |
uberwaltz I understand. Recognize as well , that if a linear tracker person is running in audiophile mode, the pump and airline can become an audiophile journey in itself, with different pumps and tweaks. Now myself, I deal with air, water and oil pumps in my car and boat hobbies, so an air pump is second nature to me. With that, myself I have not been in audiophile mode for probably two years now. All of I have done with vinyl is clean the cart and records. But I do enjoy talking tech in this frigid weather. |
