Lifters ForGetting Cables Off The Floor, Worth It Or Snake Oil
I'm looking at some porcelain cable lifters to get some power and speaker cable up off the floor. Does raising the cables off the floor really make a difference? It's going to be about 200 bucks for 10 of them. Thanks.
Hercules, yes. While out for my morning walk, he was the first thing to come to mind. Just notch out a space for the cable at the top of the world and you’re set.
Or, if classical music is your thing, busts of Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, etc. can hold those cables high with their period coifed hair.
Cables, if they’re in the same room as the speakers, will vibrate anyway…lifted or not, unless maybe they’re completely encased in venting ducts packed with spring loaded mattress foam (I’m selling those for $1,552 a linear inch). I won’t put little bridges under my cables because I think it’s simply another lame pseudo tweak, and vibration to a normal degree (earthquakes, nearby mortar explosions, and starting an unmuffled motorcycle near your rig all would qualify as "abnormal" vibration) does’t bother anything except the anal retentive brains of those who firmly think it does…do you realize there are cables in your speaker boxes being subjected to massive amounts of allegedly dangerous vibration? Those poor little defenseless wires saying "Hep me…hep me"...
The world is full of natural vibration that fortunately has so little effect on the performance of sound gear as to be irrelevant to the enjoyment of music. That reality is likely NOT over geoffokait's head, but his head is so encumbered by imagined audio demons it seems likely he can't grasp that concept, or he's simply afraid this could impact his "magic bag 'o crystals" business.
As myself and some others have said, we choose to use them for reasons of neatness, and keeping the cables from getting dusty, or for that matter, getting in the way of dusting. Any sonic benefits that they may or may not have are secondary.
Don’t cables get dusty anyway? I use my trusty dust brush vacuum attachment that sucks very bit of dust off of any cable it approaches, depositing it in a basement bin where I can extract it later and knit a sweater out of it. The last thing I need when vacuuming around my cables is having to put back a pile of tiny cable trestles or duck around fishing wire suspended from the ceiling, unless it's being used for actual fishing (unlikely).
pops Don’t cables vibrate when hooked up to a vibrating speaker? Am I missing something :>)
You're not missing something, Pops. But the vibrations of the speaker cabinet are not good for the sound, either, any more than airborne or seismic/structureborne vibrations. The only good vibration is a dead vibration. It's too bad Tekna Sonic dampers for speaker cabinets aren't still available. Hey, wait a second!! I just realized I sell a damper for speaker cabinets, transformers, CD transports, etc. Maybe the SR HFTs would be just the ticket for those stubborn little speaker cable connectors....hmmmmm.
Some of the biggest audio corporations in the world have demonstrated the usefulness of equipment and cable isolation, from any given vibration.
Pioneer used to have this little test bed that had the equipment in what was essentially, an anechoic chamber and isolated from physically borne low frequencies as well. And then a separate identical system, non isolated. Both in the same space, both could be heard one after the other.
The differences, sonically, were dramatic.
However, many to most don’t realize these effects among all the other sources of noise in their systems.
This can be multiplied by their mental position on such things, and possibly even tied to their inability to hear such things. That inability, both mental and or hearing related, may be a stubborn insistence and not really hearing related.
The skill of such may be in them, but possibly blocked by emotional positions on such complex scenarios, as emotions are a primary filter that is designed from the ground up--- to defeat logic, and enact primal function as priority override...
It can also be a scenario complicated by not being able to mount up the mentality required to commit to making a long chain of repeated single cause aAnalyses of this complex equation. Many things can be at play.
These billion dollar plus corporations, like that of Pioneer’s work in this area... do indeed follow these formulae to get to this ’better sound’, but this equipment rarely makes it out of places like Japan, which is many times - their origin point. The products that do reach for the best, in Japan, are Japan release only. Just one example of where and how this scenario exists.
The end result is that people, in North America, for example.... don’t see generally the evidence of these major bits of research in vibration isolation, and some people henceforth feel..somehow.. that this is an irrelevant or idiotic endeavor.
The reality is that there is plenty of evidence and some can’t piece it together. Railing against such things does not make the railing true, it’s just ranting and railing, nothing more. The brooding and implied pressure of a fluffing might -- attempting to make right.
One has to commit to enough single cause analysis and system noise elimination, to get to the point that things like cable risers do make a noticeable change.
Whether the change is efficacious or not, and worth the expense of the given components involved, is up to the user.
A user who’s hearing mechanism is individual and individually built. Common to us all ... but in neurological refinement - unique.
Better yet, hire a contractor to remove the floor entirely and install a couple of catwalks that allow you to walk to and from your equipment rack. The results will be amazing I assure you.
Gee whiz, can't there be some kind of like firewall to keep the Pro Audio guys away from the High End guys? You know, somewhere where all the Mogami and Crown and "let the vibrations be free to roam around" crowd can hang out.
Funny thing is, I used a crown class d pro amp to good effect until a few months ago. Guess what? That system sounded better with vibration control on the rack, turntable, preamp and speakers. Pro audio gear can show improvements in performance when vibration control (and cabling) is well applied. Pro audio in a performance venue setting shows these improvements less clearly or not at all often because of the high volume often used as well as the large spaces of many venues. Hopefully a noisy crowd too!
Abrew how deep does the trench need to be? I’d be a bit concerned about the foundation, wouldn’t you? Would definitely require a structural engineer to do the calculations and further analysis to determine pro/con. Sure would make for a great rabbit warren though.
Human brains are great, but our ears are terrible. Just look at how much money many of us have spent on getting the best sound from a sliver of diamond scratching across a record, not to mention interpreting a bunch of difital data that is smushed together to make an analog vibration. Many animal would probably laugh at our pathetic hearing if the understood this.
are there any hydraulic lifters or any adjustable hydraulic lift kits made for this purpose? there's much more room for offering and offering and enjoying borderless choice of items you can sell and purchase!
I tend to resist generalizations or conclusions since the effectiveness of cables raisers *in a given system* depends on a number of variables: (1) local weather/humidity and amount of static electricity present; (2) amount of local seismic and structural vibration; and (3) which particular cable raisers are employed, e.g, suspended by fishing line from the ceiling, etc. You can also throw in (4) the listening skill and ability of the listener while you’re at it as well as (5) how well integrated the test system is, including whether it’s in absolute polarity, in phase and (6) whether the software used in the test is in Correct or Reverse polarity and (7) if it has been overly compressed.
Geoffkait has just noted many of the reasons why one should give little to no credibility to, or be bothered by, any alleged or imagined audio playback issues caused by tiny amounts of vibration (seismic of simply vibes of bewildered astonishment aimed your way by others) making its way into your home gear heap. Well done.
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears the firewall prohibiting Pro Audio dudes and dudettes from infecting high end threads has not been implemented. Wolfie, your continued stalking is duly noted.
Depends on cables being used! The blocks are to reduce interference! Most modern cables shield for this! My opinion! Go to Home Depot and buy a 2 by 2 and cut in pieces! 3.00 dollars! Same result! It's horse hockey!
First of all, lifters absolutely work: I've lifted cables - initially with jewel boxes and edges of books, and worked up to Shunyata's 2nd generation lifters. My room is acoustically great, electricity is great, and the setup is also excellent, so I can hear the 'little things' that some scoff at, most likely because they haven't addressed completely the room, and the electricity, but it's still there to be heard. Depending on what type of music you play, you'll hear it to a clearer degree. Processed music? Won't hear that much. Mercurys, old Deccas, RCA Living Stereo and some other top labels? You should be hearing it if your system's set up right. As to the lifters at Music Direct: they have a 60-day return policy, so this is a win-win for the person considering them. Don't listen to the conjecture of those who 'know things' yet have no experience with the actual genre in question. That's called The Blind Leading The Blind. Try it out yourself. That's called common sense.
I'm in that camp - getting cables off the floor works, and to my ears, it's fairly easy to hear the difference. I don't want to debate whether it does or doesn't. I would just like to add some observations for those who have experienced the same. After trying numerous types of "lifters" I settled on some acrylic ones. The porcelain insulators - regardless of coatings - impose a sonic signature on the system. Because they provide an overall improvement, the change they make to tonal balance may or may not benefit your system. Most of the wood risers I tried did the same - improvement, but with an added signature. The acrylics seemed to provide all of the advantages without re-tuning the system. (I have not tried the Shunyata's)
Great recommendation for those looking for a super low cost option for risers. PaperSource (and no doubt other crafty type stores) have on sale card 3D letters about 12" tall. The M is ideal as a cable riser. It can be drilled and part filled with shot for added stability and being card it's easy to fit elastic for an extra boost. In my opinion card sounds better than wood or ceramic as well. I'm scooping up all the ones I can find as they're ideal for some of my loose floppy cables
David: Thank you for mentioning me in your post. I’d like to point out that while I now live on the East Coast, for nearly 30 years I lived in the Earthquake Zone - San Francisco (74-2002). In that time, I met many of the "greats": Dave Wilson (whose WATT/Puppies I was among the first to own); HP of TAS (and I wrote for TAS for all of 2 minutes - Harry was forever firing his staff). At his annual Friendship Party in Sea Cliff, I met the "Old Guard" - those who wrote during the Golden Age 73-1999 and we exchanged stories of how many times each of us had been fired; Scott Markwell, HP’s setup man; Tom Miller. And then, designers David and Luke Manley (VTL) and many others. I learned from them - and gave them some tips, too! and so much of what I know was empirically demonstrated to me. And I was an Editor for Fi Magazine, as well. So, I have more experience than most, and didn’t have to pay for it (I got to listen to components sent to Fi’s office: Jadis, Krells, Wilson Grand Slams, Rockports, Transparent cables and the like).
So, unlike those whose experience was limited to the top level of components, I had access to items for long periods of time. And I learned from it. And it was a swift learning curve with Enid saying do this, HP saying do this. You get the idea. I learned from the best. And they had no ulterior motive for educating me.
What I learned was the same thing the other writers learned: vibration, electricity, power cords: they all made a difference. And since I could borrow things, I wasn’t partial to anything that didn’t work. It was a wonderful learning time, and contrary to what people say, nobody at Fi or TAS wrote an article to score points with manufacturers. We didn’t have to. Power conditioners were new then, but it was clear they mattered, too. And again, I didn’t own these, nor did I write reviews when I was at Fi, but I got to hear a lot of equipment. I shut my mouth, listened to my betters and remained open-minded. My point is, my experience is pretty vast with expensive stuff and cheaper stuff, so when I post, I go off the wisdom imparted by other writers and even manufacturer, not just my own ownership of Goldmund and Versa dynamic 2.0 turntables, Goldmund Mimesis 9 amp (GOD, that was a magnificent amp), Convergent, Transparent’s best, MIT’s best, Spectral, Benz and Lyra cartridges.The equipment was merely an education. But if you’re not a good student, you won’t benefit. So, when I post, I am simply sharing experiences and knowledge. No one need believe me: I always believe in ’try it for yourself.’ The late Enid Lumley was the one who cued me into moving speaker cable off the floor. That was around 1988, I had a great room: 15 x 27 and another one, 12 x 18 and a gazillion tube traps (okay, only 50 or 60, but it was 1988: NOBODY had Tube Traps then, not even Harry. And those things work. But there’s a trick to them, I assure you.) And, being the mad scientist type, I didn’t stop until I tried every configuration and position on footers, equipment stands, ac plug orientation (which MATTERS!) etc. And I learned one thing: EVERY. SINGLE.THING. Matters. Don’t have cables touching each other, keep power cords AWAY from signal cables. Same things most of us know now: I just had a head start. So trust me when I say keeping cables off the floor should provide obvious results - unless your electricity is bad (that’ll kill most of the benefits of good equipment) or you have a lot of vibration (I mean, didn’t most of us??? Dave Wilson complained to me (back in ’88) that he’d just returned from HP’s home and that HP’s equipment setup was sloppy (cables touching, equipment on rickety tables, etc. and this was back in 1988!). In fact, Harry’s initial review of the first Rockport turntable was wrong because he had it on a rickety table that was hardly ISOLATION PROOF (read the review if you have it: issue 74/75, winter 1992 and you’ll see that until he got the Rockport pneumatic isolation stand, he came to some big mistakes about the turntable). Removing vibration - it was clear in that review - was a major factor in Harry’s then arriving at the correct conclusion (Michael Gindi, who wrote the main review, and had the Rockport pneumatic stand, which inflated (again, isolation was key) had got it aright before HP). This was clear to many of us as early as 1992. So, vibration isolation DOES STRONGLY affect the end results. Now in CT, I had ASC’s wall damp treatment on a resilient channel, which means no wall touches the other, nor does the wall touch the ceiling (you fill it in with an adhesive substance at the juncture of floor/ceiling/walls) so the floor isn’t shaking the walls, the walls shaking the ceilings, etc. Dedicated circuits for each components (so 6 dedicated circuits). In other words: no stone left unturned. (That was Harry’s influence: he’d insist I do it right or my reviews would be wrong). So, vibration counts. Which leads me to my soon-to-be latest addition: the Townshend Seimsic Isolation Platform for turntables, which will arrive Friday. AS Harry used to say, the only good vibration is a dead vibration. I KNOW THIS after 4 rooms, all of different size and construction. I have Stillpoints SS and Ultra Mini Risers as well as Nordost’s Sort Kones, but suspect the Townshend will be magical, based on isolation down to 3hZ. I’ll keep you posted. We should ALL keep open minds because the more closed our minds are, the less good our music will sound. And it doesn’t matter how modest the system: experiment as much as you can - but CAREFULLY. AND UNPLUG THAT DAMN MICROWAVE!!!
Thank you so much for sharing your history and progression within this hobby of ours and the wisdom resulting from your personal journey and all of your hard work.
I agree...everything matters.
I'm slowly getting into resonance and isolation control. So, I'm at the front end of this.....
You're welcome. I just wish I knew then what I know now: it would have been FAR less expensive than it has been to achieve both great sound and an even greater musical enjoyment, which is really what most of us are aiming for.
gbmcleod I have Stillpoints SS and Ultra Mini Risers as well as Nordost’s Sort Kones, but suspect the Townshend will be magical, based on isolation down to 3hZ.
>>>>>>The capability to acheive 3 Hz isolation has been around like forever, since Townshend’s Seismic Sink and Vibraplane and Bright Star more than 20 years ago. It’s not that difficult to achieve 3 Hz in the vertical, all you need is three air bladders. Even a simple steel spring isolation system can provide 3 Hz performance. It’s a better trick to acheive 3 Hz in other directions such as those in the horizontal plane. But three air bladders are too stiff laterally to offer much if any horizontal isolation. And they don’t offer any rotational isolation either. So, it was a big challenge to not only break the 3 Hz barrier and to acheive more than one or two directions of isolation.
The reason sub 3 Hz performance is important is because the peak energy of Earth crust motion and some other seismic type vibration producers is between 0 Hz and 3 Hz. An isolation device with 3 Hz resonant frequency won’t actually begin to isolate until the frequency of vibration is around 5 or 6 Hz, and even then isolation effectiveness is rather poor, not becoming robust until around 20 Hz and above. So, the lower resonant frequency the better the isolation will be for all frequencies. There have been several sub Hertz isolation platforms over the years including some active designs. My Nimbus sub Hertz Platform was the first audiophile isolation device to isolate in all 6 directions AND to provide resonant frequencies as low as 0.5 Hz. Minus K is a negative stiffness design with all manner of columns and springs inside that gets down below 1 Hz. There are others, too.
As for the Townshend Pods, I hate to judge before all the facts are in but they appear to be essentially mechanical springs. You know, like the ones I’ve have for isolation applications for more than 16 years. Like the ones that debuted at CES in 2001. And the Townshend pods appear eerily similar to the Super Stiff Springs I sell for heavy loads like subwoofers and really big turntables, etc. (I also opine that damping springs is probably not a very good idea. That’s the problem with a lot of air springs and air bladders - the rubber material overdamps and constrains ease of motion, hurting the isolation effectiveness.)
No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more if you had started out with more in the beginning.
tgun5: You might be surprised to know that Jonathan Valin, TAS’ chief writer, arrived at the same conclusion about the ceramic lifters. As I recall, he found that they "leeched out" the natural colors of the orchestra.
I don’t know Mr. Wolf, but in literature, the Wolf (except in Indian tribes) is a symbol of chaos (Fenris being the ’big, bad, wolf of Norse mythology). So, Mr. Wolf is fulfilling his symbolic nature. But the wolf is also supposed to bring wisdom in other cultures. Which one does Mr. Wolf belong to?
Inquiring minds, however, merely want to know if Mr. Wolf has actually tried any of the devices he disparages. Any good scientist DOES the experiment, not disparages the experiment and then looks at results. What experience does Mr. (Big, Bad) Wolf have to present?
Geoffkait, no doubt you're right. There are, I'm sure, many solutions and ways to isolate to 2 hZ. A friend was given the Townshend isolation platform to put into his modest system (which I gave him). The Townshend improved his system a whole lot. And his CD player is sitting on top of 3 Nordost Bronze Sort Kones. All I can say is Townshend's platform is so far ahead of the Nordost Sort Kones that it's no contest. A much more "expansive" soundstage is the first effect heard, And, again, voices sound purer, vastly more expressive. Not that the Stillpoints wren't doing this: they were. The Townshend is just waaaaaaay better. I just ordered 4 of the cells so I can experiment under my line conditioner, CD player, line stage and amp...
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