Lifters ForGetting Cables Off The Floor, Worth It Or Snake Oil
I'm looking at some porcelain cable lifters to get some power and speaker cable up off the floor. Does raising the cables off the floor really make a difference? It's going to be about 200 bucks for 10 of them. Thanks.
pokey77 randy-11 Your statement is quite strong. It presupposes that somehow all of us understand how to determine what "math" is required for this problem and then even more for us to successfully do the "math" that would provide the correct answer. I assume there are some who frequent this forum that have that ability including engineers, scientists, audio designers, etc. But, as a guess, I’d assume most of us in here don’t have that skill set. For me, I know I’m not one of those who can do the math.
I’m afraid there’s nothing more to his post than a last ditch effort by a lugubrious naysayer to throw everything he can think of on the wall to see if it sticks. You know the routine. "It’s scientifically impossible." "Even a high school graduate knows that." "It disobeys the laws of electricity and physics." "Do the math" is just than another silly attempt to disparage audiophiles by a obvious tweakaphobe who has just run out of ammo. So sad, really.
I am agnostic on whether cable risers make a difference. Therefore, I would not spend a lot of money on cable risers, especially since my basement system does not have appearence rules set by my wife. That said, a few years back, an audio buddy ordered a bunch of thick foam cut into keystone-shaped pieces. They are ~5" high, and, I would guess, offer some vibration isolation. They were cheap enough that I bought them. IIRC, I think they were about $10 for a dozen of them. So, I use them, but I have never really spent the time to try and hear if they make a difference or not.
One post did catch my eye, though: chazro mentioned that he had coiled some speaker wire due to the length being longer than required. While I would not argue for unequal cable lengths, you should never coil speaker wire (or any wire, AFAIK), because the coil will act as a resistor(?), and reduce high frequency through-put. I had been making the same mistake after I moved my amp from my equipment rack to be closer to the speakers. Some audio buddies of mine saw that, and one asked "do you feel your highs are too rolled off?" I said, as a matter of fact, I do! And he said "that’s because of your coiled speaker cables." He proceded to shorten my speaker cables. Veils were lifted. Highs were extended. The Soundstage widened. Unicorns flew over rainbows that arched between my speakers. YMMV, of course.
I noticed that statement too. I believe the mechanism involved in coiled speaker cables is induction, with the coil acting as an inductor, which, in series, acts as a low pass filter, reducing high frequencies, exactly as you noted.
I encountered some relatively cheap ceramic donuts at a farmers market - still they were more expensive than I thought they should be. Something like $20 a piece. Their purpose is to hold down the veggies or fruit while doing the crucial part of home canning (heating things up). There is a name for these things - forget now what it is - but when I googled it I found that most are not donuts but just simple shapes. Might have to get some if I encounter them again. I think they would look quite cool but something that handles vibration as well is probably better.
Fishing line from the ceiling? Highest Wife Acceptance ever!
Never tried an A/B Test and I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference in a blind test...but I like knowing that they are off the floor & I like they way it looks.
If you have extremely cheap cables with minimal insulation, and if you have a lightweight suspended wooden floor you might hear some slight changes. I tried various devices years ago and concluded that on a concrete or other solid floor, the differences are inaudible with good cables, barely audible with very cheap ones. As you go up to better cables you will get progressively less benefit. Thats my 2c worth.
I think it's a good idea, and I have been using my own homemade ones for years. Take some PVC pipe, any gauge that fits your cables, and cut it into 4 inch sections. Now, slice those sections in half, and use PVC brush on cement to cement the top of each half circle back to back. They set instantly, and they look good, and are so stable on the floor. I can't swear that it changes the sound for the better, but it keeps them away from dust bunnies, and I have heard that it also keeps them away from static charges on rugs. As one member said, they are also useful for separating power cables that are close to one another. and two of them cradle and lift my power strip.
Geoff has as comrade in arms with Teo weighing in on the question raised by the OP. I hear nothing but pablum from the two of them. Kooky nonsense, really. However, if there is some benefit from elevating speaker cable, then get a saw and cut up some 2X4's with a notch to elevate cable and see if it is worthwhile. I see lots of rooms at audio shows that use pricey cable elevators so maybe there is some benefit to it. Try the no-cost approach first to see if there is some benefit to the elevation process. Frankly, I have a life to live and cable elevation is not an audio anxiety with which I choose to engage. However, a discussion of the sonic differences between NOS tube variants, yes, that is a worthwhile discussion. My carpet-dwelling speaker cables make my system sing. Relaaaax and enjoy the music. Cheers,Whitestix
So much dust and debris collects on a floor even with good housekeeping, and cables are expensive. You wouldn't store a favorite sweater on the floor, so why not raise the cables, if only to keep them clean?
Stop don't go there. I did buy Porcelain lifters. Black with white Top . i now set them on top of my 2 amps. & place 6 in a box they came on. Cover 5 blocks of wood With tape. And spend the rest on A very nice tequila
I use cable elevators because I like the idea that the cables are off the carpet. Do they sound better? Maybe, maybe not, but they look good to me. My 2 cents...
roxy54 I think it’s a good idea, and I have been using my own homemade ones for years. Take some PVC pipe, any gauge that fits your cables, and cut it into 4 inch sections. Now, slice those sections in half, and use PVC brush on cement to cement the top of each half circle back to back. They set instantly, and they look good, and are so stable on the floor.
Nice, similar to Enid Lumley’s (The Absolute Sound) cable tunnels, made using pine 2x4’s of appropriate lengths, two for the sides and one for the top. The cable or power cord is suspended from the top 2x4 via thread and eye hooks so it's hidden from view. The pine can be treated with anti static spray. I built Enid’s cable tunnels for my Quad 57 cables around 25 years ago. Time flies when you're having fun.
The only situation I can come up with where lifters Might make a difference...setting aside 'equal length cables' (which I'll subscribe to) of the same type (a no-brainer) is if you have a metal floor....
...which puts you on a boat or an aircraft (UFO?)...
Static charges from the rug? Only if you walk around next to the cables constantly. Vibration? Do you live next to a busy interstate? Like, under it?
Twilight Zone/Outer Limits stuff, IMHO....but have at it...
I think you'd be better off buying some nice bourbon...herbage...or, if you're an extremist, some LSD for a real 'change of pace'...;)
I'm reminded about the old saw about opinions, and it's relation to another body part and it's (granted) different function at one's 'south 40'...
They do make a difference in my system. But before I bought some I tried it out with styrofoam cups first to see if it was worth the cost. I then wondered why I didn't do it sooner.
There was a kind young man on Audiogon a few years ago who was collecting and offering handsome sets of dark brown, fairly large but not obtrusive antique porcelain insulators for a reasonable price. I gladly bought two sets from him to keep my long new (to me) bi-wired flat-but-fat speaker cables off of the carpet-over-concrete slab in our living room. I have the same issue another member already mentioned: the left speaker is perhaps only three feet of cable length from our big Levinson amp, while the right speaker is probably twelve or so cable-feet away. While I will not claim the insulators vastly improved the sound, the upgraded cables made a positive difference in our enjoyment of music, and the insulators look good and functionally manage the coiled dual runs of excess cabling on the left side of the room, between our rack and the speaker. They make keeping the cables clean easier and help to keep them secured to our large full-range speakers by reducing the tug of the weighty bi-wired run. The insulators were a reasonable investment in our primary system, and I appreciated the care the seller took in selecting, matching and meticulously packing them for me. They were not expensive - perhaps $230 or so all in - and I'm glad to have them. I like to think they make a difference; however, as with all scientifically unproven tweaks, your mileage may differ, and if you consider their use to be an instance of "snake oil," I still respect your opinion.
I made some with 2 inch thick leftover oak from a prior job. The benefit I was seeking was to allow easier dusting and to relieve some of the strain on the connections from the weight of the cables. For those reasons it worked. As far as sound improvement goes I never thought of it in those terms and never noticed any past the cables own qualities.
As a side, some of you IMHO should understand this "snake oil" some keep using to attack anything they may disagree with is not in the right context. The litigation of snake oil was in that the product had NO snake oil in it , the product actually DID work as claimed. Which is not the case in any of the naysayers beliefs that none of them work.
I use a high-end integrated tube amp, not mono blocks so I need longer speaker cables... for those, I have 8 foot AntiCables which have a very thin insulation painted on. (I’d like shorter cables, but I am otherwise delighted with my setup.) The AntiCables sound great, on or off the wood floor. (There is a large oriental rug between the speakers and the listener, but not under the cables.) When I raise the cables (they are quite stiff) using only 3 or 4 re-purposed glass-insulators there is a slight but detectable improvement in the clarity of sound (or "blackness" in quiet). It is quite subtle, so I think the AntiCables are a winner for matching Avalon speakers with an Ayon tube amp. I have a great system and am pretty happy, so sometimes I use the glass risers but often not.
The logic behind this is pretty straight forward, the amount of insulation on wire is said to"smear" the sound. I believe that effect is less with the AntiCables to begin with (minimal insulation), and less on my wooden floor than on an otherwise carpeted floor. I understand that different materials affect this dialectic effect more or less. I read frequently that natural materials generally have an advantage over manmade ones, such as most wall-to-wall carpets. You can clue-in that plastics might present a problem just by the static charges that can develop under dry conditions.
A few years back, I bought a mess of old glass insulators that formerly were used on telephone poles to hold bare electric wires. EBay has several sellers, these things work well and they look uber cool versus special risers, which are more expensive. You could also use little notched blocks of wood, if woodworking is your hobby, or any number of other things (such as a coke bottle with a rubber band to hold the speaker cable fast. The point is, it can be trivial to test the concept before you commit yourself to enriching an accessory maker. Easy to try, you might find it is beneficial. I expect YMMV, depending on your speaker cables and your floor materials. ...claiming it is nonsense without actually trying it is bogus and demonstrates that something else is at work in your personality.
the idea that the amount of insulation on wire is said to"smear" the sound is not logic
and definitely not electronics or physics
Do as the poster above said - monoblocks with short runs of cable to each speaker - if that is too expensive then use your time wisely by moving speakers and building room tmts.
from what I read... it may or may not effect the sound quality... it all depends on what cables you are using... first, carpet does produce static... for people who use unshielded cables would benefit from cable lifters ... people who use shielded cables most likely don't need the lifters...
I also agree that if one hears an improvement, who am I to interfere. However, what does incense me is charging $389 for 3 little blocks holding a rubber band: https://shunyata-uk.com/product/accessories/df-ss-cable-elevator/ That is simply predatory! They probably cost closer to $10 each to bring to market. The same goes for $100 fuses. I don't think you could spend $50 mass producing a fuse if you made the filament out of metal harvested from meteorites. Does someone who pays $2,000 for a pair of 1 meter ICs really think that the manufacturer is only asking for a fair profit based on his cost? Or that it's the biggest impact they can make for that amount? (Or if anyone deserves to be that self-indulgent while others are hungry.) Equally guilty, if not more so, are the retailers who sell them to us, along with real, quality products. They serve to legitimize this standard of wastefulness and convince us that if we don't buy in, we are simply not advanced enough in the hobby.
Get anything you want for your system, just don't pay ridiculous prices and contribute to audiophile-inflation, please.
2channel8, I just popped back to see where this silly thread has gone and think you might have the most insightful post of all. High anxiety and OCD runs rampant in society, with sellers guilting folks into buying products of little or no utility. It is nowhere worse than among audio-fools. The "fuse-heads" have got the syndrome to a greater degree than most others. I think for some folks, the propensity for self-delusion is rather unbridled. At any rate, I like the way you think.
@2channel8 - exactly. I think there are many products that could very well do what they claim, but seemingly exorbitant prices make many people sceptical and many outright hostile.
My solution is to DIY and, if I notice an improvement, then I MAY consider a commercially available product.
@randy-11 - why? Why do you spend so much time knocking products and making absolute claims about things that you don't seem to actually understand? Insulation on cable increases capacitance, which stores and releases a charge. It's not a stretch theoretically that this stored and released charge in a signal cable could mess with the time alignment of the signal, thereby 'smearing' it. And it's equally plausible that anything the wire insulation is in contact with could further affect the capacitance of the cable.
While these effects would be incredibly small, there's no reason to assume that no one could hear them. Also, if indeed there was no scientific basis for something, that doesn't immediately imply that it is impossible. Data suggesting something doesn't work, however, would be a valid reason to suggest something doesn't work.
Right now though, you come across as an anti tweak fundamentalist. I'm curious if you've tried cable elevators or if this is just another thing that you've decided can't possibly work and must save us from.
I wonder, is it tweaks you have issues with, or it is it the high prices that disgust you, tainting the product in your mind?
Zar .. Common thread here. "Nay sayers" and proponents.
1 major distinction in the diagnostic is whether you have a system of sufficient finesse or sonics to distinguish the benefit.
Personally I recognized the science for the benefit (by way of 1/4" static zaps) but I chose to experiment w/the wooden 2x4" model on carpet .. works great! Is 4" to high or to low? Got wooden floors? maybe entirely different. All I know some aspects sounded better with the cables lifted and oriented with some thought to signal paths.
NaySayers quoting science simply are ill informed about the simple electro dynamics of carpet static (again wood floors not tried). Proponents often forget that while "tweaks" make a difference, we often forget that the person we may be responding to is trying to milk the most out of an Optimus?Radio Shack receiver & speakers (vs a BAT/Essence super system).
BUT the enthusiasm/pursuit for better musical enjoyment is no different .. as I journeyed thru Sylvania, Pioneer, Vector Research, SAE, VSP Labs, Counterpoint etc, each step had more critical signal paths that respond to delicate changes in signal. Those changes (along with alittle wine, a great recording) and badabada bing you got a great listening session that leaves you smiling inside.
I made about 13 cable lifters for about $15. I used some clear 1 x 3 boards cut into 4 inch sections. Three are used for each lifter and I held then in place with 2 GRK 1 1/2 inch panel screws that have a built in washer. These are similar to the ones on the Michael Green Audio site. A little sanding and stain and you have a cheap alternative to expensive lifters.
I personally believe there are certainly more important things to focus on to realize system improvements than 100.00 fuses and keeping cables off the ground. I have witnessed some philes directing too much attention on factors that realize less benefit than other tweaks that IMO would be more beneficial. Room treatments, speaker placement vibration isolation would be among them. In my experience, at the recommendation of my dealer as recommended emphatically by the speaker cable, ic manufacturer a physicist BTW for whatever it's worth, just do it says he. I did and clearly noted greater clarity it wasn't a leap of faith to hear this . Quite simple, out of wood to match my equipment rack. Didn't cost me anything but time. Enjoyed your comments teoaudio.
@tubegroover right on. There is no doubt that tweaks like this come in after room treatment, speaker placement, isolation/coupling.. in fact, I'd wager that, if you haven't sorted those issues, you'll probably not even be able to notice differences created by tweaks.
Nobody said do the cable lifters before room treatments or isolation or anything else. The devils in the details. A lot of seemingly preposterous or insignificant tweaks add up to a big deal. It all comes down to where youngest off and what you’re trying to accomplish. I realize a lot of folks here are satisfied with where they are and have taken a break from the action. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Obviously cable lifter, like fuses and such are for audiophiles who wish to go behind the usual ho hum. By as far as cable lifters being controversial, I beg to differ. They're not. If anyone things cable lifters are controversial just wait till something that's really controversial comes along. (Oh, it's coming!) Then you'll be begging for mercy.
If your family is into collectable figurines, just borrow some and put them to good use. You can always rationalize it by saying they're serving a higher purpose and that it saves money.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
