@skypunk, are you on a slab? I am and you could be on to something.
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So much talk about this! Aside from daveb, I haven't heard anyone say that they do any harm sonically. For myself as a user, I don't really notice much difference; but I still think that it's a good idea to protect expensive cables from dust and dirt, so why not just do it. It is certainly easy to make your own. |
@pops @dave_b Think there is some correlation with slab type and environment. I know it was an improvement in my system and cost me $25.00 @Fabre I am an engineer and it worked for me. Doubt the producer in question understood his product or theory. Not all engineers are right. Trial by fire people, if it work good if not don’t use them and send me back. If you are going to do scientific survey’s this opinionated place is going put a lot of noise in your data. |
I have tried many expensive lifters and decided to do it my own. It works beautifully. https://www.etsy.com/listing/947935875/audio-speakers-cable-management-riser To be honest. It does make a different but I am not going to spend 200 bucks for it. I have compared them side by side, the result just the same. But if you want to remove any RF interfere, you really should lift the speaker cables above the floor. |
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roxy54 "geoffkait, I never said they didn’t. That’s neither here nor there. But I’m sure Tom appreciates the support. He certainly can use it. What do you mean it’s neither here nor there? That’s is what the discussion is about." >>> I’m afraid you haven’t been following the discussion very closely. I never argued that coupling or grounding is not effective or not important. Nor did I ever suggest Audio Points products don't work. In fact, I just got through explaining my position a few posts ago. Put on your listening ears. My position, for the umpteenth time, is that both grounding techniques AND vibration isolation techniques are required for the best results. I also propose damping in certain situations. The damping I’m referring to is not rubber or similar materials but effective damping. Why do things halfway when you can go all the way? Doesn’t make sense. Don’t be an isolation denier. 😱 |
- randy-11 - I haven't tried dropping them off the stands in the summer and you may in fact be right. It was winter when I experimented with all of the "lifter" variations and they have been off the floor ever since. There is no denying the improvement in the winter months when speaker wires run over carpet. No snake oil here. |
Geoffrey C Kate, you are such a ‘Grandstander’. I am not sure anyone can hang with you in any conversation. Your talent lies more in avoidance, providing answers only to what you understand and denouncing everything unfamiliar to you while always changing subject matter. You should have become a politician and sold hot air. Tom, don’t be such a big isolation denier. Not only is vibration isolation enjoying its 25 year anniversary for audiophiles, the whole isolation phenomenon has resulted in the introduction of spectacularly effective devices, what with active isolation, two stage isolation, magnetic levitation and so forth. Tom is not an isolation denier, in fact we studied, used and tested various isolation models, techniques and products including your very own springs, in order to form the foundation and expand the theory of Resonant Energy Transfer some seventeen years ago. Tom’s descriptive information listed above may not be understood by the readership because it is an entirely different understanding of function managing the negative effects caused from vibration in audio and musical instruments. I would state that isolation theorems are being challenged by a very formidable competition in attaining a higher sounding musical quality; but statements like that enters the world of highly subjective opinions so how about a more focused scientific statement whereas ‘Resonant Energy Transfer’ reduces heat temperature in electronics and transformers establishing greater operational efficiency and can be proven via scientific testing. Resonance Transfer also adapts to any and all types of musical reproduction products, structural listening environments including recording studios, listening suites and concert halls and enhances the sound of musical instruments without affecting the natural character of the original sound or voice. Geoffrey, you have no rebuttals to Tom’s statements either confirming or criticizing the technical descriptions he provided and in my opinion should stop relying on the groupie thing, throwing out dated information and all those imaginary numbers you come up with when technically challenged and/or having no realistic ‘on topic’ replies left in the arsenal. 25TH Anniversary for isolation Huh? I was not aware of that. What publication announced this? - Anyway Happy Birthday!
Irrelevant statements: Geoffrey, you forget listeners have been mechanical grounding audio components and speaker systems a lot longer, years before springs and isolation surfaced in the marketplace. Our products historically prove that as fact. By the way, based on sales records established by our founding fathers recorded from 1988 easily attest that 50,000 is cutting your number way too short, We are only one company in the industry and have achieved close to that number. Question: How many people consider metallic cones as a form of isolation? They are not. This lifetime of misrepresentation, titling and labeling all the variations of vibration control and products into one term - “Isolation” shows just how new vibration management was and still is in the world of sound reproduction. Until Industry and reviewers adapt a more modern day name for our sector of industry “isolation” will continue to confuse methodologies, challenge public’s perception and inhibit intellectual growth. Example: The wide majority of current day equipment racking designs including multi-shelves, single shelf products and speaker stands continue to be based on solid mechanical grounding principles and do NOT isolate yet are always referred to and reviewed as 'isolation racks'. If LIGO had blinders on like you do they couldn’t have been able to observe gravity waves. Come on over to the good guys. You bought into the whole Michael Green "Let the vibrations free to roam around the room" silliness long enough. Enough is enough. You’ve been a good soldier. You can come out now. The war is over. First and foremost your precious Ligo requires mechanical grounding in order to begin function - enough said ? I would not use the term silliness as in a few months there will be an absolute undeniable proof of performance open to the public for audition. This mechanically grounded environment including all AC lines, panels, power distribution and much more is a completely brand new product for audio. You can actually purchase a total and complete sound room. From the standpoint of both SPL and RTA testing, comparing data and physical sound to every venue we have ever encountered, it’s quite frankly - off the charts. You call it a war? We call it evolution. I’ll buy the plane ticket in order to finally meet you and witness the look on your face when the first note hits and reality sets in. As for the ongoing M Green analogies, please tell me again - what in the hill are you talking about? Maybe it’s time you should stop this silliness... The isolation concepts you refer to are highly successful but are attempting to correct a problem after the beat has taken place whereas we prefer to first manage the issue prior to the beat. Timing is everything. The problem is NOT vibration. Vibration related to sonic contains all the dynamics and harmonic structures we seek as audiophiles, music lovers and listeners. The problem is resonance build up that is formed from vibration - a returning polarity of shear wave energy that clogs up all signal pathways (mechanical, electromechanical and acoustic) hence lacking a more efficient high-speed mechanical grounding structure. Resonant Energy Transfer provides resonance an expedient exit away from chassis and/or structure to ground establishing greater operational efficiency. Robert - Star Sound
PS: and Geoffrey, before you come back with that old “our way or the highway” thing - Resonance Transfer is neither. It is new, provides undeniable audible results and has the capability for scale; advancing growth potential for other industry outside of audio. |
Tom, it’s actually you who can’t keep the argument straight. I am not (rpt not) lumping everything together. Far from it. Did you conveniently forget? I have always argued that both isolation and some combination of damping and draining of energy away from the system are important. It’s you who is lumping everything together by dismissing or ignoring isolation and putting all your ducks in the grounding/coupling bucket. If LIGO had blinders on like you do they couldn’t have been able to observe gravity waves. Come on over to the good guys. You bought into the whole Michael Green "Let the vibrations free to roam around the room" silliness long enough. Enough is enough. You’ve been a good soldier. You can come out now. The war is over. 🎉 |
Geoff The problem is you lumping everything under the umbrella covering term ...isolation. Not much can be isolated if anything especially when it comes to energy running thru solids..The solutions to the problems must be looked for.. outside the confines of the term "isolation". The simple term "isolation" limits the whole process of the understanding and reduction of interfering energy. Tom |
Tom, don’t be such a big isolation denier. Not only is vibration isolation enjoying its 25 year anniversary for audiophiles, the whole isolation phenomenon has resulted in the introduction of spectacularly effective devices, what with active isolation, two stage isolation, magnetic levitation and so forth. How many audiophiles do you think employ some isolation device or another, 50,000? Come on, don't be such a fuddy duddy. Join the isolation revolution! 🍾 If you think a deprogrammer might be helpful I’ll see if I can arrange for one.🤖 |
Everything in the room is a passive radiator and is at the mercy of its own geometric shape and material makeup. A table which may have a glass top and rests on round wooden legs will have a different influence on the sound in a room versus the the same glass top on square wooden legs...All of this has to do with the velocity of these materials and the fact that they have different boundary layer shapes that interact with each other. All these different materials and shapes that touch reflect shear waves back and forth. So while you have only 2 materials you will have many different wave polarities and speeds determined by the dimensions and shapes and where the point source originates. All of these furniture pieces have multiple speeds even when made of only one material. Springs will not stop this from happening because the wave front is compressive and then becomes shear which cannot be isolated in solid materials. It still is a passive radiator at all frequencies. Material choice, interactive shapes, proximity to other boundaries and the fact that they are grounded or not determines their sound and influence in an audio room. Mechanical grounding is the best method for the reduction of interfering energy. Other methods only serve to increase its time span . Tom |
Tom, the cones under furniture isolate the furniture, reducing the ability of very low I.e., seismic structureborne frequencies to excite the resonant frequencies of the furniture, which are very low. It’s an excellent example, though a very indirect one, of the importance of isolation. The speakers are actually a separate isolation issue but they should also be isolated from the rest of the room and system. |
and speakers ..and anything else that comes in contact with 1 or more room boundary,etc, etc. All the objects mentioned can have their interfering energy reduced by mechanical grounding so the contaminating energy is not added back into the sound of the room and the music. Some of us have installed Audio Points and coupling discs under chairs, cabinets and many decorative pieces that hang from walls and ceilings..doing this for several years. Same holds true for musical instruments and any of their speakers and electronics. Tom ..Star Sound Technologies |
This might be a good place to mention that all furniture in the room should be isolated from the floor, especially heavy couches, bookcases, tables, etc. For this purpose employ the best cones you can muster. For cost reasons I recommend Small size DH Cones, Diamond Hardness ceramics. Any cones you have lying around waiting for their next mission will do. 🎉 🎉 🎉 🎉 |
gbmcleod Geoffkait, do you have to have your spring vertical for the best sonics? You sure do with the Townshend, although it will sound great - even fantastic- with them at the angle. But the "air" will disappear a bit as the bottom part of the springs moves out of vertical alignment (completely my error, of course), and so the field of depth is like an accordion when you push the sides together. Just sayin’. >>>>>Of course springs should be vertical. If they aren’t their spring rates won't be linear, under the force of gravity, which is vertical, they won’t be as "springy." Consequently isolation effective will suffer. If the springs are angled enough away from vertical you can probably visualize in your mind’s eye they won’t behave properly. The easy way to check for proper operation of whatever is isolated on springs is to manually get the system in motion up and down and observe whether the action is smooth and unrestrained by non verticality of springs or by external forces like power cords or cables or by non uniform distribution of mass on the springs. Sometimes careful adjustment of spring locations can be very helpful in that regard. Of course for heavy masses springs must be placed wider apart than for lower masses. |
For those of you that might be considering buying and auditioning a set of those ceramic/porcelain/glass insulators but don’t want to pay audiophool prices: do a Search on ebay and you’ll find thousands of these insulators at varying prices. I recently purchased a set of 4 vintage ceramic insulators for $40.00 shipped. Most of the insulators available on ebay have a rounded top but others have a "saddleback" top which is perfect for holding a variety of speaker cable types and sizes. The obvious upside is if you can hear an improvement in your system then you’ve saved yourself a lot of money. The downside is if you can’t hear any improvement then these "non-audiophile" brand insulators will be harder to re-sell. So you can pay the big-bucks for genuine Cable Elevators and if they’re not yer cup ’o tea you can re-sell them for close to what you paid. OR buy essentially the same vintage insulators on ebay and save yourself a bunch of money. I would seriously recommend the latter. Spend the money you saved on something else! |
When I realize the original subject was getting the cables off the floor, I realize how far this has drifted off the subject, but since I posted about that, I thought I'd also post again about the Seismic platform and pods. I just discovered - like yesterday - that, if the springs are not exactly vertical (and when you put the Seismic Platform down, if you do what I did, and simply assume that putting 'em down, even with the bottom part of the springs at the 11 - 5 o'clock position, as you would see the hands on a clock, is sufficient. I discovered yesterday, while listening to Yma Sumac's voice, that making sure the springs are directly vertical (12 noon to 6 o'clock position) is the only way to fly. I had noticed an "ethereal" quality to the sound that hadn't been the case previously. I couldn't figure it out, until I looked at the springs and wondered what would happen if they were MORE vertical (not completely vertical, as this was only a theory). So I pushed the bottom part of the spring so that it was more in line with the top part. Voila! The sound solidified and the cowbell in the recording sounded more like it had 4 days ago (when I "un-verticalled" (yup, not a word. I know. But you get the idea)) it. Geoffkait, do you have to have your spring vertical for the best sonics? You sure do with the Townshend, although it will sound great - even fantastic- with them at the angle. But the "air" will disappear a bit as the bottom part of the springs moves out of vertical alignment (completely my error, of course), and so the field of depth is like an accordion when you push the sides together. Just sayin'. |
bdp24 Local heavy industry and/or construction is one source of seismic vibration, the earth itself another. The presence of the latter does not make the absence of the former any less welcome. Duh, or should I say HELLOOO? Apparently some people just love to argue. I would rather spend my remaining time listening to music. You’ll pardon me for saying so but apparently you’d rather argue than listen to music. How much time do you have left, short timer? |
Local heavy industry and/or construction is one source of seismic vibration, the earth itself another. The presence of the latter does not make the absence of the former any less welcome. Duh, or should I say HELLOOO? Apparently some people just love to argue. I would rather spend my remaining time listening to music. |
Call our innovations and/or, technology what you will Geoffrey Kait. I previously requested that you refrain from calling our people childish names but... here we go again. Murphy once said, never argue with a fool because after many hours people may not realize the difference. It appears you are a big believer and follower of this law so I hope to be extremely brief in that people can easily separate the differences between us. On this thread alone - you have announced: My very first iso device beat the SeIsmic Sink twenty years ago and I’m pretty sure I can beat the Seismic pods today. Sometimes you can tell a book by looking at the cover. “Pretty sure”? Obviously stated by a man with an overwhelming confidence for success. I would have loved to see who judged that contest. My own single air spring Nimbus more than twenty years ago set the standard for number of degrees of motion and resonant frequency. What public document or University reference paper was this published in or is this another one of your “old audiophile expressions”? I would replace the noun ‘standard’ with ‘benchmark’… makes your story telling a bit more believable. Where is the Nimbus now? The Original Sistrum Platform that Tom (theaudiotweak) played a key role in developing back in 1998 was released for public consumption in 2000 and is still improving sound quality so if Nimbus was that good why aren’t you selling it? Man that was one over-sized piece of racking gear, all loaded up with York barbell weights, holstering up to a 35 pound max component load. Really Impressive... Tom, big deal. Even if it’s true, which I seriously doubt. "If you look hard enough you can always dig up some story to try to prove your point." - old audiophile expression How about you Geoff? Let’s talk about truth for a moment. Even if it’s true that you are the chosen one to lead the audio industry, which I seriously doubt. “If you look hard enough you can dig up some story to prove a point or as in your case - just ‘whopper’ size it”. http://toneacoustics.com/Testimonial.php?6 http://toneacoustics.com/Testimonial.php?4 Simple proof Tom is not a storyteller in fact he has provided information listed above delivering a new statement on “shear waves” regarding real time, rise time and shear related to vinyl records and loudspeakers with regards to vibration and equipment function. I had a bit of trouble with this next statement until I realized your participation here is not about music at all.
I’m afraid this is just a sad case of being almost entirely ignorant of what’s been going on in the industry outside the confines of one’s own narrow little developments. Stove, piper, stove piper, stove piper, stove! Yes, you are, yes you are! I will gladly partner with people of integrity like Tom and graciously accept every narrow little development that Star Sound has accomplished over anyone who suffers from an enraged ego matched to an obvious personality disorder and consistently displays extremely poor taste... like you for example. How could you possibly consider placing a Tone Acoustics cello endpin on musical instruments costing upward of a half-million dollars plus receive accolades from the musicians “who actually create music and sound” as a sad case with ignorance, lacking industry direction? Making instruments and music sound better is our direction where we lead by product innovation and sonic results, so that swoosh of air passing by your ears was us. Robert - Star Sound PS: Unfortunately your written abuses are NOT solely directed at us but I am fairly sure nearly everyone who has ever participated here on AudioGon has tasted your ridicule and attempts to demean one’s person. In my professional opinion, you should cease from verbally abusing the many especially those who are much more successful than yourself. Why not leave the planet something positive that music lovers can identify with for that is the true meaning of success. |
theaudiotweak Our seismologist does.. she has another home in Oregon..She also knows about man made swarms as she has been a consultant in the oil and gas industry as well as a construction soil consultant in Arizona, Colorado and Oklahoma.. >>>>>My question regarding seismic swarms was strictly rhetorical. Not to mention it was not (rpt not) directed at you, anyway. Don't take everything so personally. There was no reason to get your panties in a twist. Can I suggest you guys take some Valium and try to settle down? If a frog had wings it wouldn’t bump it’s butt so much. - old audiophile axiom |
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