No offence but the Townsend pods appear to be simply a variation of my steel springs which have been around almost as long as dirt. In fact my undamped Super Stiff Springs for heavy TT, amps and subwoofers most likely outperform since damping the springs spoils the sound a smidgen. Everything is relative.
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Watch the Townshend You Tube video, silly! Max explains the Pod, which behaves like a bellows, iirc. I would watch it again, but my computer has a virus that prevents me from doing so. Me too, swampwater. The Eminent Technology LFT-8b has it’s binding posts mounted on the top of it’s bass bin, and my power amp is at about the same height, on the top shelf of a stand, the speaker cable suspended between the two. Same with my Quad ESL's, which are on Arcici stands. Have to check the tightness of the amp and speaker posts every once in a while! |
https://youtu.be/dW9-r83IvhI Springs! Obviously the springs need to be on outriggers (and elegant looking ones they are) for things that are top heavy, you know, like the speakers in the video. geoff kait give me a stiff enough spring and I’ll isolate the world |
Geoffkait, I’ve always considered your comments to be balanced, informative and fair, so I would ask that you TRY the Townshends before commenting on what they "seem like." It is POSSIBLE that your springs come close to or, Max Townshend forbid (!), equal them. But you know as well as I do that people commenting on what they have not heard fits Ivor Tiefenbrun’s dictum: "If you haven’t heard it, you don’t have an opinion." It’s dismaying how many ignorant comments there are about things people have never even seen, much less heard (and I’m not including you in that statement, since I’ve rarely disagreed with what you’ve written. And I can’t dispute what you say here, since I haven’t heard your springs, and you haven’t heard the Townshends). Just keep an open mind, please. |
Incidentally, the 4 Townshend Isolation pods arrived. I put them under the NAD integrated and...hmmm, couldn’t hear the improvement. Needless to say, I disagree with Mr. Levi of Positive Feedback: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue75/townshend_pods.htm. "Use 3 or 4 Pods anywhere under your gear... it is not critical at all." Well, I put them "anywhere"...and got nowhere. But then, I’ve bought things other writers (mostly HP) praised to the skies - and learned - AFTER I spent the money ("a fool and his money....") that it was never mentioned in the review that the component was "lean-sounding" or, as in the case of the Seismic sinks (which I had 3 of the originals, but thought they did nothing for my system!) that due to the uneven weight of components, that the sinks would not make your system sound better if you didn’t fill one bladder just a little less than other bladders, and that you didn’t want to pump it up fully, or you would get a "grey" sound. (I still have one of these sitting in the living room, as we speak, trying to figure out how to pump it up: lost the original pump. And now that I have the 20-years-later-and-technologically-superior Seismic platform, I’m itching to compare.) Now, I could’ve let this slide and not posted yet. But it reminds me of those I mentioned in other posts, who buy something, shove it somewhere and then write, "it did nothing." I could say the same thing here, based on my immediate reaction. Hey, I'm not immune to carelessness in audio: it's just that I don't go by my initial impression. But what I will do is position them more carefully (didn’t have time to do it today, and anyway, I thought, (carelessly, it now appears), "Hell, this should elevate the system to sainthood!") It barely elevated the NAD, other than that it’s 4" higher off the platform it was sitting on. And the NAD was previously supported by Stillpoints Ultra Mini Risers. Seeing that the witching hour is approaching (it’s actually 3 a.m. for you non-witches, NOT midnight), the experiment will have to wait until later this morning. I have a few spells to cast: getting dicey out there in the world. But shoving the pods under the NAD and not being elated? It’s a lesson in how even expectations based on previous experience with the same manufacturer can sometimes lead us down the wrong path. And how sometimes, it takes work - even with inanimate objects - to get things right. Feng Shui, anyone? |
bdp24, Lots of talk about seismic activity affecting the performance of equipment when placed on generic spikes in comparison to damped springs - referring to the videos mentioned and referred to multiple times by you and others throughout this forum. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOPXJDdwtk4&feature=youtu.be&t=39 Our take on this marketing/sales video is very opposite those of trending opinions. It is easy to poke holes in a heavily favored one sided home team demonstration. The fact that this manufacturer has elected to present a lopsided exhibition and state spikes present a problem with musical reproduction without comparing realities has opened the door for this brief response and questionnaire. Poking Around: Would it be fair to ask why both meters appear to be “reading the same data” throughout this video prior to the self generated physical stomping or tapping hence establishing a shock wave with additional noise? Would it also be fair to inquire if this type of energy, focus and release (stomping) is NOT commonplace or generated in any sound rooms or recording studio environments unless self inflicted? The visual of both meters displaying the near same data while standing idle is a topic of interest that has obviously gone unnoticed by a lot of people. We assume this video production was filmed at a trade show located in a large city where there are possibly underground trains, street traffic, additional outside noise, internal HVAC systems are running, hall traffic, seismic activities and many more noise generating sources. Is it fair to say that there must be a tremendous amount of audible and inaudible noise being generated within the testing environment so why the requirement for over exaggerated stomping? Since ambient noise and seismic interference are a featured part of their technical storyboard, why not focus on those issues and use them as a testing methodology? According to the manufacturer they play a large role in music reproduction and equipment performance. Possibly the devices used in the presentation could not or were not calibrated to display the problems associated with what our research, studies and in house testing have determined to be as “extremely minimalist”, possibly non-existent and/or inaudible effects when music is present in the listening environment especially when all sound reproduction equipment and engineered structural room environments have been mechanically grounded. We humans see and believe meters in plain view, no matter how camouflaged within or outside the audible range of human hearing or how they are applied to topic, yet we use our ears to listen for audible results… irony? Reality: “There is no known scientific test for loudspeaker function when placed in a live dynamic environment, only highly subjective versions currently exist.” R Maicks, Star Sound We are not questioning the isolation theorem or if spring based products performance delivers audible function as they are fully attested to by the listenership but… Does anyone actually believe this video presents a ‘fair comparison’ in using generic $1.00 speaker spikes that totals a whopping $4.00 financial investment in comparison to a product costing thousands of dollars? At some point in time the $ Price $ you pay for a product has to become part of your thought process in order to shape your opinions and grow your understanding of audio. Does a $4.00 investment stand any chance of besting a few thousand dollars worth of design? There are engineered spiked products available that retail close to the same price point of the spring loaded isolation device used in the aforementioned video that would indeed render their speaker demonstration and comparison as extremely deficient. We fully guarantee there is no ‘smearing or ringing’ in a well designed and engineered mechanically grounded Platform, just the sound dynamics of live. In closing: Believe what you want or whatever theory related to vibration management sounds good to you but always compare the price you are paying for a product to whatever product is being used as the comparison when seeking the higher performance. After all, audio is about what we hear and not what we see, right? Thank you for your time. Robert - Star Sound |
One need look no further than the LIGO project to detect gravity waves to see what the big boys do (and don’t do) to acheive very high isolation effectiveness. The reason LIGO was forced to develop the world’s best isolation systems is because the gravity waves in question, the ones produced by collisions of black holes and even by the Big Bang are very minuscule, their amplitudes are on the order of the diameter of an atomic nucleus. In fact, the first LIGO detection occurred last year and the gravity waves detected were produced by the ancient collision and merging of two giant black holes. But I digress. When one examines what LIGO developed in the way of isolation system to get the sensitivity of the experiment sufficietly high for the gravity waves to be detected it’s based on springs and other advanced techniques, including active isolation, but not (rpt not) on spikes or cones any such thing. Now I’m not (rpt not) saying spikes won’t do anything or that cones won’t do anything. What I am saying is that spring based systems are the most common, the most effective and the easiest methodology to implement. Having said that there are many ways to skin a cat: air springs, steel springs, damped springs, air bladders, bicycle inner tubes, bungee cords, what have you, both passive and active types. There is really no (rpt no) other way to obtain resonant frequencies well below 2 Hz or even below 1 Hz. Now, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that since spring based systems behave like mechanical low pass filters and Earth crust motion (microseisms) have peak energy circa 0-3 Hz, one must obtain sub Hertz performance if one is to have a snowball’s chance of significantly isolating against Earth crust motion and other generators of extremely low frequency vibration. Sure, spikes may have their place. But isolation is not one of them. Geoff Kait machina dynamica give me a stiff enough spring and I’ll isolate the world |
@audiopoint if you take a look at my virtual system https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5707#&gid=1&pid=31 (the V trace in the set of the graph traces from the accelerometers in my Herzan platform) you will see clear and compelling evidence of seismic activity (in this case most likely road noise and construction) and the effect of eliminating it. In this instance the benefit is felt for the turntable but I have all of my equipment isolated in a manner that addresses this insidious (and readily noticeable once you hear it’s absence) source of interference. I have no particular axe to grind as to what method you use to address low frequency interference but denying it exists, or that its impact is audible is just plain wrong |
Addendum: there are many reason why isolation is effective for audio systems. The reasons that are perhaps the most obvious are, in no particular order, (1) mechanical feedback from speakers transmitted via the floor, the resonant frequency of tonearm, cartridge and platter is around 10-12 Hz, well below the lowest frequency of speakers but not (rpt not) below that of seismic low frequency vibration, therefore vulnerable to it, (3) the tiny lateral spring system that is part of the elaborate servo system that allows the laser to track the data spiral has a resonate frequency around 8 Hz that is subject to being excited by low frequency seismic vibration. |
If you're actually worried about seismic frequencies worming their way into your rig, you possibly need to increase your meds or get another hobby (Balsa wood ship modeling? Needle point? Live concert sound mixing?). I know, to geoffkait my silly Pro Audio/musician background renders my opinions as irrelevant as a bag of crystals, but even with that handicap I try to get by. |
Active platforms cannot see into the future to react to events that have not yet occurred. Active devices respond in Milli seconds so their rise time can never trace a real time event. Active platforms react to motion with counter motion of their own. Counter motions in both active platforms and suspended platforms average and blend all shear waves in mass. Polarities of shear are fundamental to all things that vibrate. Two things that contains vast and continual amounts of shear are vinyl records and any loudspeaker. To counter either of these audio elements with motion canceling, especially after the real time event has passed reduces efficiency of the device and serves the retention and storage of interfering energy which is added back into the signal path.. Tom |
And yet active isolation devices are more than an order of magnitude more effective than passive devices. Imagine that. Gosh, maybe they can see the future. That's why big boys like LIGO use active isolation. Not to mention passive devices are considerably better than nothing at all. Don’t follow the wrong sheep. If you don’t want to step in sheep do do. 🐑 🐑 🐑 🚶 |
theaudiotweak Butt Geoff in your state of the art 900 sq ft.condo in the heart of suburbia how could you implement stage 4 LIGO into the regular audio crib with real speakers or in your case headphones? Build us a bridge over your own sheep do do. >>>>Remind me to re-post the paragraph on pathological skepticism for your benefit, Shouldn’t you be standing out on a ledge somewhere? Every organ grinder has a monkey. - old audiophile expression Good monkeys should never throw their feces. - another audiophile expression 🙉 |
Hello Folkfreak, If you examine the entirety of my statement I never state seismic interference does not exist. I am referring to the effects generated from seismic activities within a mechanically grounded sound room with the equipment mechanically grounded as well. The effects from seismic interference are minimalist and do not change a thing or at the very least ours and others who have trained ears in music could not hear or detect any traffic, trains or planes or any seismic related interference within this engineered environment. We are in the completion stage of another sound room where the structure, all electrical feeds from the main panel including the AC panel along with all the equipment is mechanically grounded. Our previous design stunned everyone from highly experienced audiophiles, studio sound engineers and musicians alike. I would like to invite you in for a listen upon completion. Please do not take this as anything but positive. You have a very good system and obviously labored and spent a great deal of time listening and working through the sonic of each product you own in order to gain success in your listening enjoyment and I am sure we can learn from each other’s experience and our people would like to learn more ‘hands on’ about active isolation. Questions on the Herzan: Are you sure the noise showing on the Herzan meter with TT in the off position was traffic, construction or a form of seismic interference? The Herzan relies on AC power for operation therefore it has a power supply (remote as an option however the main body still reacts to friction formed from vibration), AC noise and of course additional resonance formed from vibration on all surfaces and electronic parts including the chassis, the spring system, the electronic parts and circuits, etc., per Coulomb's Law. Since the Herzan is extremely sensitive, could some of the interference being displayed on the meter possibly come from those parts reacting to AC flows? I am not aware of what this device brings to the table in sonic as we have no experience owning one. Most of our practical knowledge comes to us from Norm (tbg on Audiogon) who reviewed and is very familiar with our products and has also owned multiple Herzan units. The Herzan appears to be designed for science applications other than audio reproduction. According to manufacturer’s spec, this isolation system takes approximately 5 to 20ms to receive and process vibrations whereas the human ear responds to auditory stimulus on an average of 0.17ms. The sonic characteristics involving attack, sustain and decay of instruments along with response to listening reaction times are extremely fast. Music is fast hence we rely heavily on the need for speed. Our engineering is extremely confident that our technology will improve the function and performance of the Herzan. If you are open for an experiment, please contact me. We are always looking for new ways to expand our technology. We positioned and built it inside of speakers and electronic components, equipment racking, adapted it to musical instruments, placed it inside structural surroundings and it will also improve the function and effectiveness of all those acoustic panels currently mounted to your walls as well. If you really enjoy the results from the Herzan, then let’s see if we can speed things up a bit and get more out of active isolation. I am looking forward to some day meeting you. Robert - Star Sound |
To the Grandstanding Kait, Typical approaches towards others whereas you are mentally... (oops wrong choice of words) because you are already there; so let’s just say if you are required to reach beyond your current threshold of hands on experience and attempting to understand any new concepts while continuing to refuse hands on experimentation with new products built after 2001, your mental reactions to anything beyond the scope of your current day brain trust is matched to the same old, same old repetitive monkey slang. As you have stated and restated above, you can beat other highly successful manufacturers’ products with your own versions so when can we expect availability on them? Come on Geoff, you are bragging and shilling all over the place with zero “spring” in your bounce. Put up or shut up duder! Let’s see what’s under that new bag of rocks... After all, LIGO having absolutely nothing to do with sound reproduction whatsoever, would NOT EXIST if the framework were not “mechanically grounded”. How about that - even the big boys must rely on mechanical grounding for function - imagine that? You are indeed a “Grandstander”. |
@audiopoint the time base on the scans I posted is 160mS hence the frequency of the main signal visible in the first scan is 10-12hz (depending on whether you think there are 1.5 or 2 cycles displayed) so I suspect this is not a power supply issue. Nevertheless cognizant of the issue you raise the manufacturer does offer an external power supply in order to eliminate this possible source of additional interference - or as Herzan put it "EMI noise and heat" my room unfortunately is of typical domestic construction (frame on slab) and my wife and I can feel the whole house shake with passing traffic and other subsonic activity. Perhaps other situations would not be as sensitive but I have found all of my equipment benefited from some form of isolation from the floor (be it via springs, roller balls or active isolation). in terms of where the cognoscenti are at the platform of the moment is the Stacore combining pneumatic isolation and rollerballs. You may find this thread of interest http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23315-A-world-first-Passive-v-active-isolation-platform... |
Someone would have to be living in a cave to suggest that real isolation and effective isolation - such as exemplified by the LIGO project - is not applicable to audio and to suggest that all you need is mechanical grounding. I’m afraid this is just a sad case of being almost entirely ignorant of what’s been going on in the industry outside the confines of one’s own narrow little developments. A perfect example of what I call Stove Piping, which is working in one’s own narrow little chimney, or stove pipe, and frequently arriving at some bizarre conclusion, not (rpt not) having the benefit of all the other developments that have been occuring outside that narrow chimney. It’s a crisis of Intelligence, information. Real and effective vibration isolation has fortunately been available to audiophiles for more than 20 years, starting with Townshend’s Sesimic Sink, Bright Star air bladder and sand boxes and Vibraplane air bladder stands. My own single air spring Nimbus more than twenty years ago set the standard for number of degrees of motion and resonant frequency. The guys from Audio Point can save a little face as I’ve always maintained that good mechanical grounding techniques are important, too, especially in terms of grounding the component to the isolation device and grounding the iso device to the floors or support structure. The reason why isolation is used in the construction of tall buildings is to make the buildings less vulnerable to the effects of Sesimic vibration, especially earthquakes obviously, but also the effects of wind. I’m afraid a program of mechanical grounding as theaudiotweak suggests would turn out quite badly for tall structures, just as it would if applied across the board for audio. "Let the vibrations run free." - the wild chant of anti isolation Stove Pipers. Stove, piper, stove piper, stove piper, stove! Yes, you are, yes you are! Geoff Kait machina dynamica |
folkfreak is in one of the most extreme construction-active cities in the U.S.A. right now---Portland Oregon! There is active construction on just about every street in the city. I go into town a few times a week, and am relived when I get back to the Salmon Creek area of Vancouver Washington, about a 20 minute car ride away. Peace and quiet! Plus, my electrical power station is only a 1/4 mile from my house, in a neighborhood with residential housing only---no industry, even light. More quiet. Makes my tinnitus even more audible! |
Fifteen years ago a audio buddy came to me to ask advice on what to replace his CJ MV 75a tube power amp with. Have had the same amp previous I knew what it was and how to make it perform better. Instead of beating him up to buy a replacement amp..I sent him home with a Sistrum Sp1 platform so he could direct couple his power amp to his floor or shelf system..I don't remember which it was. He called me the next day to tell me he no longer needed an amp and thanked me for the transformation that occurred when he removed the Townshend Seismic Sink and replaced it with the Sistrum Sp1.The fat bass blurr was gone the stage was more open and defined and there was an impression of greater dynamics and power. He said he now knew what the amp could do and thanked me for the advice and for saving him a few large. Cliff still has the amp (re-tubed) and still has it atop the Sp1.Tom |
Bdp24 folkfreak is in one of the most extreme construction-active cities in the U.S.A. right now---Portland Oregon! There is active construction on just about every street in the city. I go into town a few times a week, and am relived when I get back to the Salmon Creek area of Vancouver Washington, about a 20 minute car ride away. Peace and quiet! Plus, my electrical power station is only a 1/4 mile from my house, in a neighborhood with residential housing only---no industry, even light. More quiet. Makes my tinnitus even more audible! >>> But it’s the vibrations you can’t (rpt can’t) feel that are the real problem, the ones below 10 Hz, the ones produced by the Earth crust motion and subways and traffic. That’s why the iso stands audiophiles drool over these days are the Minus K and the Herzon active ones, or the active Vibraplane, because they go LOW ENOUGH and are stiff enough to address the vibrations that are waaaay down there below 10 Hz, even below 3 Hz. You can run but you can’t hide. Who wants twenty year old technology? |
So Geoff last week you twice called me a monkey and now at the start of this new week you have called me a liar.... We should compare product feedback on our respective websites..I have testimonials from musicians (Not UFO’s) from around the world.. and links to their performances using my products all based on direct coupling..and dispersal of certain wave types. You have no clue about what I am doing.. what we are doing..and you are 20 years behind...Not all waves are compressive and the ones that corrupt the most are not compressive.. they occur in all solid materials and shapes. Tom |
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theaudiotweak Our seismologist does.. she has another home in Oregon..She also knows about man made swarms as she has been a consultant in the oil and gas industry as well as a construction soil consultant in Arizona, Colorado and Oklahoma.. >>>>>My question regarding seismic swarms was strictly rhetorical. Not to mention it was not (rpt not) directed at you, anyway. Don't take everything so personally. There was no reason to get your panties in a twist. Can I suggest you guys take some Valium and try to settle down? If a frog had wings it wouldn’t bump it’s butt so much. - old audiophile axiom |
Call our innovations and/or, technology what you will Geoffrey Kait. I previously requested that you refrain from calling our people childish names but... here we go again. Murphy once said, never argue with a fool because after many hours people may not realize the difference. It appears you are a big believer and follower of this law so I hope to be extremely brief in that people can easily separate the differences between us. On this thread alone - you have announced: My very first iso device beat the SeIsmic Sink twenty years ago and I’m pretty sure I can beat the Seismic pods today. Sometimes you can tell a book by looking at the cover. “Pretty sure”? Obviously stated by a man with an overwhelming confidence for success. I would have loved to see who judged that contest. My own single air spring Nimbus more than twenty years ago set the standard for number of degrees of motion and resonant frequency. What public document or University reference paper was this published in or is this another one of your “old audiophile expressions”? I would replace the noun ‘standard’ with ‘benchmark’… makes your story telling a bit more believable. Where is the Nimbus now? The Original Sistrum Platform that Tom (theaudiotweak) played a key role in developing back in 1998 was released for public consumption in 2000 and is still improving sound quality so if Nimbus was that good why aren’t you selling it? Man that was one over-sized piece of racking gear, all loaded up with York barbell weights, holstering up to a 35 pound max component load. Really Impressive... Tom, big deal. Even if it’s true, which I seriously doubt. "If you look hard enough you can always dig up some story to try to prove your point." - old audiophile expression How about you Geoff? Let’s talk about truth for a moment. Even if it’s true that you are the chosen one to lead the audio industry, which I seriously doubt. “If you look hard enough you can dig up some story to prove a point or as in your case - just ‘whopper’ size it”. http://toneacoustics.com/Testimonial.php?6 http://toneacoustics.com/Testimonial.php?4 Simple proof Tom is not a storyteller in fact he has provided information listed above delivering a new statement on “shear waves” regarding real time, rise time and shear related to vinyl records and loudspeakers with regards to vibration and equipment function. I had a bit of trouble with this next statement until I realized your participation here is not about music at all.
I’m afraid this is just a sad case of being almost entirely ignorant of what’s been going on in the industry outside the confines of one’s own narrow little developments. Stove, piper, stove piper, stove piper, stove! Yes, you are, yes you are! I will gladly partner with people of integrity like Tom and graciously accept every narrow little development that Star Sound has accomplished over anyone who suffers from an enraged ego matched to an obvious personality disorder and consistently displays extremely poor taste... like you for example. How could you possibly consider placing a Tone Acoustics cello endpin on musical instruments costing upward of a half-million dollars plus receive accolades from the musicians “who actually create music and sound” as a sad case with ignorance, lacking industry direction? Making instruments and music sound better is our direction where we lead by product innovation and sonic results, so that swoosh of air passing by your ears was us. Robert - Star Sound PS: Unfortunately your written abuses are NOT solely directed at us but I am fairly sure nearly everyone who has ever participated here on AudioGon has tasted your ridicule and attempts to demean one’s person. In my professional opinion, you should cease from verbally abusing the many especially those who are much more successful than yourself. Why not leave the planet something positive that music lovers can identify with for that is the true meaning of success. |
Local heavy industry and/or construction is one source of seismic vibration, the earth itself another. The presence of the latter does not make the absence of the former any less welcome. Duh, or should I say HELLOOO? Apparently some people just love to argue. I would rather spend my remaining time listening to music. |
bdp24 Local heavy industry and/or construction is one source of seismic vibration, the earth itself another. The presence of the latter does not make the absence of the former any less welcome. Duh, or should I say HELLOOO? Apparently some people just love to argue. I would rather spend my remaining time listening to music. You’ll pardon me for saying so but apparently you’d rather argue than listen to music. How much time do you have left, short timer? |
