Lay Off the Newbies!

@amg Audiogon search engine is good, but the hard part is knowing how to a search phrase that is accurate enough and also doesn't return too many results. My ability to utilize the search engine only increased as I knew what to search for. That problem, in a nutshell, is my rationale for an FAQ category.

I have a younger friend in his teens that has just starting to get into audio---he has a hand-me down stereo from the early 90s. To him, it's the world. He's starting to buy vinyl now and has started asking me about updating his stereo. I find it so much fun helping him and being with him on his new journey. I doubt he would be asking me to help him out if I was critical of his system or judgmental. I respect most people in this forum, but there will always be bad apples. 

Boone’s Farm was what we use to get the girls drunk and horny. Preferred hash over pot but yes room was smoking. I think back and get depressed on how much of my life I missed out on this hobby. Don’t get me wrong I love music and have been enjoying since I was 5. I look back are realize that I spent most of my life hearing music and not listening. Sitting out of the sweet spot thinking that this is the bomb, one speaker crammed in a corner the other hanging from the ceiling. With my current set up I will play the same album from yesteryear and it does not even sound like the same band. Back to subject is yes we don’t need to discourage the “newbies” I think half of the sarcasm is done in just to play with the seasoned posters (poking the bears). This a lot of the time is directed at those we play with and the “newbie” is just Collateral damage. Another point is they need to go through the same struggles we did to truly enjoy the journey and get to where we are today in the hobby, we had no threads to post questions even thought we had the same dumb questions. Now get off my lawn!!!

Music evokes the emotions differently for every person, but the commonality is that it always will.  I’m new to this hobby but then again I’m not…

I spent almost 10 years attending audio shows, reading forums like this one, and going to boutique audio shops demoing equipment, listening to different combinations of gear. I was searching for that “perfect” setup. It knew it had to exist right? However technology evolves and I could never quite convince myself to be satisfied, because there was something always better, there had to be. So the search went on and on and on. Unfortunately, I was missing the whole point, which was to enjoy music. 
Just last year I circled back to one of the original shops I found a decade prior and the shop owner remembered me and was like ‘what the hell are you doing, you need to start enjoying your music, you’ve wasted how much time trying to perfect a system?!’ He called me out on my unending search for perfection. I did what he said and I’m loving my music.

To all the “newbies” out there like me (and maybe you’re not really a newbie)…ignore the arguments about what components are better and why you should or shouldn’t buy a piece of gear. Just buy a system that fits your budget, tweak it over time, don’t worry about perfection because it doesn’t exist, and enjoy your music! Best piece of advice I’ve received.

I'm a newbie. Initially I got into trouble with one of your veterans, when in search of the right power cord and an understanding of connectors for 15 amp and 20 amp cords (really basic stuff for me), I pushed back on a suggestion that I install a dedicated 20 amp line to my system in my house.  I didn't want to go to that extra expense but he pushed.  So I pushed gently back but he got insulted  - I apologized  and that was it.  I felt I had intruded into an elite club where I didn't belong.

Since then I passively check the forum everyday for relevant information. The replies often reflect a sharp sense of humor.  But in substance, a lot of it is over my head as the members have equipment I've never heard of.  So I sort out what I find useful - finding out about Benchmark amplifiers, Townshend speaker stands for example - and ignore the rest of the high end chatter. Newbies should just follow this practice - ignore the smartasses on this forum and glean that which is useful in one's circumstance.

@styleman- at the risk of sounding patronizing, when the geezers like me came up, there was no Internet, so what we learned was all a function of reading, meeting with other audiophiles, hanging and listening as a quasi-social event. Even if the get-together had a purpose- to evaluate some piece of equipment or listen to some new material, not all was serious business.
The last part is something that I think is missing today- there are clubs, and there are people who socialize (now that Covid appears to be receding), around hi-fi and music, but I think that’s less common now. Today, I suspect it is more of a solitary pursuit and the Net can yield products, reviews and fora like this one for what can be a worldwide community rather than just a local one. But in many cases, this becomes an isolated pursuit- you listening in your room.
None of us have a "linear" knowledge base- at least for me, it’s pockets of knowledge that have been accumulated over the years. I think that’s true even of trained engineers and other scientists. This is a multi-disciplinary field and no one knows everything.
In almost all cases, for me, the learning came through seat time, backed up with research (not as accessible then as it is now) and comparisons, experimentation, discussion and more listening.
None of that excuses someone being rude to you, or having their ego bent out of shape and taking it out on you. If you are in a town where there are others interested in the pursuit, it’s worth seeking them out and getting to hear some systems in other peoples’ homes. It’s fun, it’s far more instructive than "virtual" interactions and you can develop enduring relationships. In fact, there are several people on this site (and others) with whom I’ve communicated over the years who I would like to visit and finally meet in person. The shared interest in audio/music becomes a bond that is often only part of the relationship.

chayro
It was Sherwood and KLH (when the names meant something) but you got the rest right!
styleman I've been here for years doing just that. Most of the time I will get a laugh, shake my head at the negativity or just learn. Rarely will I post because if I have a question it gets answered sooner or later or I look it up. Since I am the student and the forum is the prof I don't have a lot to contribute, and that is reflected in my minuscule post count.
Having said all that, I read AG every day.

@whart 

Bill - well said brother. We really do need a visit ;-). But don’t expect any quarter on the track, I would still bump ya into the Armco… ( not in an F car

Then stop calling them Vinyls!

This thread, though well intentioned, has pointed out that this place has morphed into some kind of internet gauntlet, with the nice people on one side and the not so nice ones opposite them. 

If a newbie wants to run that gauntlet, my advice is to run close to the nice ones and ignore the others as they swing for the fences while aiming at your head.

And, stay clear of that guy who yells "shiller" all the time.

All the best,
Nonoise

Yes totally agree.  We were all at one time "newbies" to the hobby.  For myself there was no Internet to seek information.  I had to learn by listening to equipment at audio stores. Few exist now.  Sales people.  Local audiophiles.  Audio magazines.  Then spending money to figure it out for myself. 
However, now there is TMI.  Too Much Information.  Being new to the hobby they may not be able to separate the subjective / objective view points and sarcasms to aid him or her in their quest.
.  
To add to a prior thread, a "Woman" co worker started me into Higher Fi and the art of audio reproduction.  I don't know if I should thank her or curse her.

Learn by example:

david3838- I’ve been following all your postings and comments on Audiogon for the past 2 years and just wanted to say Thanks for passing on your knowledge on all things audio. I’ve learned a lot from your comments and they have helped my understanding of audio gear immensely.

Scott22- First off as a new guy with no experience and a limited budget I found this site quite by accident and ended up purchasing my speakers and integrated amp here. Since then I’ve been a regular reader and occasional responder.
What I have observed is how helpful the members are in general and I’ve observed MC, in particular, has been a most consistent truth-teller( as far as I know) with an acerbic wit.

sj00884- Unsolicited i asked him his thoughts on improvements for my system. He offered them, I took them and viola, there was marked improvement. Very thankful he took the time given my modest setup.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/my-apologies-to-miller-carbon

Millercarbon:

Do you own a cherry picker, or do you rent?

DeKay

And, stay clear of that guy who yells "shiller" all the time.

He only does it about the shillers that push $$$$ "snake oil" relentlessly at every opportunity.
And new popup members that post unashamedly and rave about $$$$ "snake oil" products with no guilt. 

Tell ya what dekay, you show me where someone spontaneously started a thread for the express purpose of apologizing for the way you have been mistreated and complimenting you on all the help you have provided. Your comment by the way is exactly the sort of mistreatment that thread is meant to apologize for. Started by exactly the sort of person you and the others are pretending to want to do better for. What roasts your buns is I am actually doing it. And you know it. Anyway, where was I? Oh yeah. You show me that thread where people are like that about you. Then we can talk. Until then I will thank you to move along, please.

OK, but...

Do you own or rent?

PS:

You are not a newbie, and your mission (if you wish to accept it) is to find a single discouraging post I have made to a newcomer aside from Kenjit and a few other assorted trolls.

PSS:

Who would have thought that someone supposedly living in Washington state would be sooo sentitive about a cherry picker post?

DeKay

Appreciate that someone finally brought this up. I see it in the classic car hobby too.

+1

Though I'm a newbie to the forum (lurked on and off for a few years) I can say I've been a hobbiest of more years than I can remember.  That does not mean I don't need advise or guidance from time to time.  So generally, when I look for said advice I try to skip the BS parts and focus on where the meaty answers are.  Snarky or "fan boy" responses serve no real value to a new comer other than discouragement or teaching to emulate the same in the future.

It is tiring but that seems to be the nature of today's internet based communications.

@chayro 

Somehow we survived, listening to our Sansui receivers and JBL L-100s in bedrooms thick with pot smoke and spilled Boone's Farm.

I love it!  Thanks for the memories.  I'll add turning the lights down and listening to Rick Wakeman's Journey to the Center of the Earth.

@chayro
You’ve been very helpful to me over the years. I appreciate it! 

Regarding the subject of your post, I’m not sure it just has to do with newbies. It seems like it’s a case of hurting people hurting people.

Quite a quandary…

'Regarding the subject of your post, I’m not sure it just has to do with newbies. It seems like it’s a case of hurting people hurting people".

Uncledemp-- you make an excellent point. After all, one can find the same sort of thing on just about any online forum, these days.

What was once known as "common courtesy" has morphed into "common discourtesy".  

%tages I'd be interested in.....F My I.....

-Newbies happy/not happy with the 'AG Experience'....
-Existing subject to the same y/n query...🙄

AG as a whole Is a bit more....'uneven' in response to newbies.
Generally, relatively courteous...'in forum' discussion amidst the 'locals' to the OPs'  query responses can get a bit 'haywire', but...*shrug*

'Long Form Forums' re wires, ICs',  why this/that amp, pre, post, speaker(s), etc., ad infinitum probably stunt one into silence....not wanting to incite pixelated piking....

OTOH....so far the majority here is civil to all and any.....until the random response/rant leads to a meltdown of sorts with some or no conclusion/resolution.

...as for 'haywired'...*L*  Yup, guilty.  Born/bred that way...rather used to it.  Not likely to rewire unless breathing stops....
Rather fond of carrying on with that latter activity...;)

... Moanday morning comes too soon...Good whatever, J

I think we should treat both the old and new posters with equal insulting distain and not single out anyone relative to age or experience. 

Be Irish hate EVERYTHING.. Most of all yourself.. BUT we love our mudders and da pooch and rabbit in my case.

I’m joking .. kinda...

Regards

Sometimes replies can betray insecurities revealing an unexamined life. 

it’s funny how these threads take on a life of their own sometimes. It’s very difficult to make oneself so clear that your message is taken the way it was meant. I was never talking about anyone being nasty or snide when a newbie asks a question. My intent was to say that the well-meaning and experienced audiophiles should not overload newbies with so much information that they get scared out of the hobby. This seems to apply to analog more than other subjects, probably because of the way many audiophiles ritualize record cleaning, setup, etc. IMO, it’s not necessary to tell a newbie they need a 4-step 20 minute per lp cleaning ritual or a $3000 ultrasonic machine to enjoy vinyl. For a new person, I think a $300 record cleaning machine and a 1-step fluid is plenty at the beginning and certainly much better than the Discwasher we all used in our youth. That's what I meant. 

from my point of view you're gonna get knowitalls, gatekeepers, general jerks etc in any niche hobby. and it doesn't matter. if you're really into something you'll pursue it no matter how those types treat you. just gotta roll with it - why should a 20yo care if someone who remembers where they were when jfk got shot thinks his system sucks? why should a thousand dollar system guy worry about the opinion of a guy who spent 6 figures and ruined his marriage for this thing? at some point the "wah they're being too rude. what happened to Civility??"crowd has to get over themselves and just keep it moving. 8 out of 10 people are cool towards the newbies like myself and that's good enough imo. just my .02c

@chayro  Your lead: "Lay Off the Newbies!"  : )

Strong words. Wide open to interpretation.

In sympathy with your intent.

it’s funny how these threads take on a life of their own sometimes. It’s very difficult to make oneself so clear that your message is taken the way it was meant.

@td_dayton:

"... at some point the "wah they're being too rude. what happened to Civility??"crowd has to get over themselves..."

"Sometimes replies can betray insecurities revealing an unexamined life".

@stuartk i agree with that, which is why it really doesn't matter what a jerk says - often they're just at war with themselves and take it out on someone they think they're better than. if a few rude comments puts someone off from pursuing a new hobby, they weren't that invested to begin with. in life you meet rude people all the time, and if you can't simply shrug and move on then you're gonna have a rough time. don't see why a stereo forum is any different 

anyway i am in full agreement with the OP re: older guys acting like a $4000 cleaning system or $2000 isolation accessories are the Only Way to really do it right 

OP you can see I like to cut up (maybe to much), but in all honesty, when a new person ask a question the quality of the question usually determines the quality of the answer.

YOU seem sincere in your effort to make them feel at home, maybe consult with the AG staff and see if you can head up a new topic on the forum to accommodate, "New Comers" "New Guest" "Newbies" "The First Stop".

Maybe a little introduction to the behavior that will be tolerated by all, what won’t be tolerated by ANY and the difference between the two.

There are no rules chiseled in stone, BUT a few.

No "NASTY" name callin’.
Be respectful.
Curve the political rants. Red, Blue, Neither or ALL. (curve NOT Stop) Its ok to fly your colors, just not in my face.
Do unto others as you would have THEM do unto you.

BUT above all, contribute to the forum in a constructive way. Enjoy yourself. Be aware sometime it takes a little intervention on the Staffs part, sometimes on the members part, and sometimes on the EVERYONES part including the "The New Person". Nothing wrong with standing up for yourself in the shadow of a BULLY.

"I’ll be your Huckleberry" against that mean ol "Johnny Ringo"

BUT that is NOT the natures of most AD regulars. Good honest folks..

WELCOME has always been the AG way..

Unfortunately there are SOME that will even take offence to being called a "Newbie". I mean after all they have been turning knobs like the rest of us their whole lives, too..

With great respect and regards to ALL, New or Not..

Four years ago an indivdual new to audio would have been given good advice on building a great system within the newbie’s budget, whether two channel or home theater.  Now there are "expert" habitual posters that makes this not so much the case.

A newbie may not have enough experience to be able to weed out bad advice that is not relevant in the context of their system.

Dekay I'm a newbie and I didn't find your post to me overly positive.  Sure I was asking for it, proposing a silly scenario  but the outright personal attacks here and the overall sense of superiority is a turn off.  This is a HOBBY about music it's not a religion or a cult to me any way. 
I'm tough and find a lot of it funny.  One of my favorites was someone posting that they didn't have any thoughts on the subject but it was important to let everyone know that.  I'm here to connect with people of like interests to learn from others.
I have found people on this forum who have opened their homes to a complete stranger.  Invited me to talk to them on the phone to discuss things.  Why can't this site be more like that and less snarky, junior high school abusive bullying?   

I think it would be helpful if posters would specify whether they are 'newbies' at stereo equip in general, or newbies at being an "audiophile".  It's an important distinction that will greatly determine the answers you receive in response.

I cringe when I think of some of the responses I gave to folks, years ago, who I thought were real newbies, when if fact they were just 'newbies' to the audiophile thingy.

Cheers

@td_dayton:

"@stuartk i agree with that, which is why it really doesn't matter what a jerk says - often they're just at war with themselves and take it out on someone they think they're better than. if a few rude comments puts someone off from pursuing a new hobby, they weren't that invested to begin with. in life you meet rude people all the time, and if you can't simply shrug and move on then you're gonna have a rough time. don't see why a stereo forum is any different".

 I agree. 

I think the biggest barrier to educating yourself is being afraid to ask a stupid question. There are no stupid questions but there are plenty of off-topic, self aggrandising answers.
My advice to any newbie would be don't be afraid to ask the questions, ignore the replies that don't help and acknowledge the ones that do. Once the whole thing turns into a pissing contest move on to another thread. Don't give up, do your own research and once you know enough to contribute give a bit back.

My advice to any newbie would be don't be afraid to ask the questions

Good

There are no stupid questions

Also good

There are no stupid grandiose claims about things

Not so good for a newbie to post, especially if if directed at "snake oil" products.

Cheers George

This guy has issues.

@georgehifi

There are no stupid grandiose claims about things

Who are you quoting there?.. the other two are mine but I can't find that on the page.

hey george, you know, from a certain perspective the compact disc was "snake oil." 😉

and yeah that search feature has been helpful for me and i've enjoyed using it a lot, though i'm on the fence whether it really justifies guys who've been posting here since Bush was president turning into crybabies whenever somebody new asks a newbie question. but like i said before, not a big deal to just shrug and move on either 🍻

Who are you quoting there?.. the other two are mine but I can't find that on the page.

Any newbie that goes down that path 

Ahh... okay, got you.

hey george, you know, from a certain perspective the compact disc was "snake oil."

It’s real has technology proof behind it and EE (electronic engineering) etc.
"snake oil" has NOTHING! but conmen trying to make huge bucks out of it from the gullible.