Is there a such too much power for speakers?
I have one of these amps on order, and I noticed this conversation from the engineers blog about power and clipping Look at "Amplifiers for the future of High Performance Audio" post .... https://legacyaudio.com/backstage/perspective/ |
Not sure if I posted this, but years back, mid 90’s I think? I had a nice pair of altec Lansing m508’s, powered by carvin dcm 2000 amps in bridge mono bloc version. i was sending enough watts to make those speakers sing. Always careful of the volume, but the effortless, and very airy, sound was great. the amps were great, but not reliable, so I gave them to my cousin More watts=better |
Oh, I got this amp ,yesterday afetrnoon, so I’m not fully familiar with its characteristics, yet. I will say the highs sparkle and there is plenty of solid bottom at my neighbors' non-disturbing level. Gabriel and Genesis sounded great as did Caravan, Gong and Enya. Going to try Cusco and Weather Report. today. |
I don’t have the scratch to be an ultra-high end user like most of you appear to be, but just received a Musical Paradise MK III. Rated at 6.5 w/ch. Using B&W DM 630’s. Cost: $360 for the integrated tube amp from a previous one-owner. At 12 o’clock, that thing could blow out your eardrums. No distortion detected. Not going to try, either. |
Audire's Julius Siksnius thought that a really strong power supply and 100 watts was sufficient. Except for a few things I can't afford anyway, I tend to agree, even though I use 4 channels of 125 (250 and 400 into 4 and 2 ohms) wpc Audire amps for my subs and mains. With the real, four way Nautilus speakers from B&W, eight channels of 350 watts per channel are necessary. If I can't have that, I am content to listen and not worry about it, because since I heard it, everything in between my system and the Nautilus system is just a never ending stop gap of frustration, frustration of trying to pretend something is in between. Of course, I do not count lush, harmonically rich speakers, etc. because it is not my taste to guess what the musicians and producers wanted, and to buy a system that fulfills that goal for specific recordings for the detriment of others. |
Hi all, it’s my update. It’s been a about month, system being freshly put up in the new room, synergy finally arrived and wow I’m finally satisfied with what I already have, the VTL ST-150, 120wpc. . Dynamic= check . Soundstage= check . Imagine= check . Disappearance= check . Inner detail= check . Tuneful bass= check . Fullness= check . PRAT= check . 3D’s= hmm ok . Toes tapping= check When synergy arrived last week, I’m not going to lie, I turned off system and walked away many nights thinking that my ears are being programmed or getting used to the new sound or playing tricks with my brain. But it’s been more than a week with many smiles (and smirk) and satisfactions.... it completes me. Wow, synergy! Took you that long? Gotta say. I love you man. |
+1 @cakyol +1 @mijostyn I found a good video on youtube titled," What is Clipping?? Understanding Amplifier Clipping & Clipped Signals". Though this is pertaining to car audio, the video showing sinusoidal wave forms on an oscilloscope, and what a driver does when it's driven by a clipped sinusoidal wave is a good educational tool. This information is irrespective of the actual quality of the signal being fed into the loudspeakers. If your salesman had said, "There aren't many limits to the quality and output power of an amplifier that are not addressed by your budget", I'd have to agree. However, I would say that the amplifier isn't nearly the most significant area on which to divide your budget. Source, loudspeakers and room treatment/design are in my mind more important to the overall sound of a system. Of course, amplifiers, interconnects and power are all important, however how to divide the money you invest seems a little skewed in the price of the amplifier the local dealer is offering you. |
@dwmaggie, I listed them all up on my last response including wattage and price. They are all within the brand VTL. Happy to share again as below: . Speakers SonusFaber Elipsa SE . current amp VTL ST-150, 120wpc, $6000 ***In discussion: . VTL S-200, 200wpc, $12k . VTL S-400, 300wpc, $25k . VTL mb-450, 425wpc, $25k . VTL Seifried, 650wpc, $75k |
I am more familiar with the Stradivari. I have helped with the setup of three systems using that speaker. The Elipsa looks like a slightly smaller version of the Stradivari. The Stradivari did not require high power to sound good. I don't expect that the Elipsa needs really high power to sound good and it probably cannot absorb as much power and deliver quite the same volume level as the Stradivari. I have not heard many speakers that really "need" more than 100 watts, and I doubt that the Elipsa would be one of those kinds of speakers. There are tradeoffs involved in any choice of amplifier. The higher the output, the more output devices run in parallel are needed and the sound does suffer in some ways from this design choice. I find this particularly the case with tube amps; and with a lot of manufacturer's lines, I prefer their lower power and cheaper amps when the speakers are appropriately efficient. I am not saying that a high-powered tube amp is not appropriate; it is just that you should not automatically rule out amps that are in the power range of your current amps under the impression that it is more power that is needed for improved sound. While you expressed a preference for tube amps, if you do find that more power is what is needed, you should consider solid state amps. Some solid state amps are quite decent where a bit more power is the requirement (e.g., look at Ayre amps). |
Like most dealers, this one would like to make a big sale, but advising to buy a $75k amp is probably not the best advice. Such an amp might be marginally superior to a $15k amp, but one would be spending a premium of 60,000 to possibly get a small improvement. More power or wattage is generally better than less, because of the dynamic swings in various types of music. A drum beat may need 15 db of extra volume to be adequately represented at the listening position, which translates to 5 times the wattage level. So if one's amp is running at 5 watts, then 160 watts will be needed, and more if the speakers have an impedance dip at the specific frequency. I've run 100 watt speakers with 300 watt amps with no problem. But you have to determine not to go past a safe volume or else over drive the speakers. As others have said, it's easier to damage speakers by under powering them. For most situations, 300 watts is plenty. But the speakers in question may be able to handle far more. Going a hundred or 2 above their power rating would be safe for the most part. |
+1 @cakyol +1 @mijostyn If I remember correctly for every 3db increase in volume you will need to double your amplifier output power. So with 91db efficient speakers you should be able to get up to 106db peaks with your current amplifier. As a point of reference I believe that general conversation is around 50 - 60 db and if you are yelling at some one or vice versa, you will be around 85db. You should be fine with your current amp at low to moderate volume levels. If you are unsure turn the volume up slowly until you hear noticeable distortion. Turn your volume control back a click or two and this will be as loud as you can play your system. If not loud enough then you will need a more powerful amplifier and you will need one in the range of 250 wpc or larger. |
One thing that can occur (perhaps rare, but it's there) with a low power amp driving a 'low power' rated driver is 'heat death'. One out of 4 speakers, driven at a moderate level (nothing ear wrenching) cooking the voice coil. Being able to physically touch the backside of the magnets on all 4: 3 were warm to the touch, the 4th was literally Hot. Since this occurred during a 'DIY test', I wasn't totally shattered by this result...in fact, I'd more or less expected something to happen. In this way, I know where a weak link is, and can address it. *L* But I do nasty things to innocent speakers....;) |
What you asked is a little complicated, if you are considering tubes. Important considerations are things like peak power. Peak power is one way of saying how much headroom you have in an amplifier. If you don't have enough peak power the dynamics of the music will be dull. A tube amp with about 50 watts average power is likely to have sufficient peak power for most speakers. However, I have heard 12 watt amps with sufficient peak power for a speaker of average efficiency. I would suspect your average power usage for your equipment during a listening session is less than 12 watts and may be closer to 3 or 4 watts at the speakers. This adds up to the real questions is what is the power supply capable of delivering to the power components? How clean is the power delivered to the power components? A great tube circuit with a terrible power supply will yield a less than desirable amplifier system. I would suggest quality watts over big power. Do you want to know more? |
There is an old review on the SE version on Tone Audio https://www.tonepublications.com/review/sonus-faber-elipsa-se/ He used 15 different amps with them from 35 watt tube monoblocks to 200.5 Pass monoblocks. |
If you like VTL then their suggestions are probably very suitable for you. Go with the S-400 if you can afford it (it looked like the S-400 ref II costs about $33k). I don't think you should worry too much about having too much power but on the other hand it might not play much louder with 200W instead of 120W. Try something at home and see what you think. If you want to try something else I heard an Absolare integrated that was fantastic. I think it has 150W so it would not be much more powerful but might sound different than your VTL. |
I was using my VAC PA 80 80 set in triode mode putting out 35 watts per side. My pre amp is the ARC LS15 They were driving my speakers that have built in powered sub woofers. I have on order a pair of Maggie's 0.7 speakers. I decided to buy a used amp that would have more power to drive the Maggie's as they like power. I found and bought ( for less that a decent set of speaker wires) a Spectron class D amp. I've spent days listening to CD's that I've owned from the eighties that I know inside out. They have never sounded so dynamic, energetic, amazing inner detail, and a wide sound stage I've never heard before. I'm just amazed on what I'm hearing that I've never heard before. So if high wattage produces what I'm hearing, give me more!! John Ulrick produced the first commercially available Class D power amplifier in 1974. Specifications
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The rating of Watts can sometimes be misleading. A Krell monoblock may be rated at 100 watts -a cheap amplifier might also be rated at 100 watts. The distance between them may be huge in sound levels. Try to arrange listening sessions with loaned equipment in your own home. If you are spending a large sum of money it needs to suit your environment. |
Not sure about the SE, but the Elipsas have a somewhat demanding low end. They drop to 2.5 ohms around 100 Hz and have a large phase angle around 70 Hz according to the Stereophile review. So, even though they are rated at 91 dB, they may need an amp with significant current to deal with the low end. The SE has a new crossover, so it may have quite different measurements. I doubt you would hear much difference between 400 watts ad 650 watts, although design differences can also cause different sounds. I would ask you dealer for some loaners. At those prices, I would definitely want to listen to the options. |
More power isn’t better. Better quality design and build is
better. My Kyocera MOSFET from the 1980’s is rated at 50 watts/channel, with
125 watts/channel on demand. It will push my speakers well beyond the pain
threshold with no distortion. Sorry, but I think most of the stuff they make
today is overrated junk. Invest in some good vintage gear.
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@fundsgon My speakers aren’t too hard to drive, SF Elipsa SE. currently mating with VTL tube amp ST-150, 120wpc. Since I’m now in a bigger room 15’x20’, I need more powerful amp.Bea Lam from VTL suggested between MB-450 (425wpc, $25k) and S-400 (300wpc, $25k)My Local stealership suggested me the more powerful, more expensive, the better which is their flag ship mono block Siegfried (650wpc, $75k).. I knew something wasn’t right. First I don’t have $75k. Second, I ain’t paying $75k Side note: I’ve been eyeing on The next model up from mine, the S-200 (200wpc, $12k) very nice unit but they tend to skip it for the higher ones. Any VTL owners want to chime in? Greatly appreciate |
The issue with very high power amps and damaging speakers is not from sustained listening but from a sudden burst, which can happen by accident with a bad setting. For example, you can have mute on somewhere back in the chain and try to turn the power up to listen. Then you realize that mute is on so you take it off and bam - 500 watts into your speakers. It also can happen when you have a wrong input and turn up to the volume. When you change back to the correct input the same thing can happen. These type of accidents do happen and, with high powered amps, it can be a problem. It only has to happen once. Of course constant clipping is also a problem, but with a $75K amp, it is probably not going to clip very often. |
It is not how fast you go but how you go fast. You want to go as fast as you can as good as you can. Get the goodest, biggest amp you can afford. There is no such thing as too much power. The more head room the better. Distortion kills more speakers than power. There is nothing more dangerous than a dull tool. |
Interesting, how many children is the dealer trying to put through grad school? On the serious side, I blew out a 10 inch ESS AMT4 driver with a 50 wpc Acoustic Research integrated in 1974. As most others have stated already, an underpowered amp can lead to serious speaker issues. OTH I have blown up several amps in my later 20's due to volume and alcohol ingestion, the speakers were ESS towers and did not suffer damage. I bought a Digital Amp Co 4800a last year, 200 wpc. Was so impressed that recently a DAC Maraschino on ebay, that was purchased,is even better. Tried a lot of US amps in the 200 watt league. The JBL Synthesis was nice, the Acurus was a slight improvement. DAC amps let everything come thru, much better than the above. Clarity, soundstage, detail, image, depth, soundstage were much better. Yes it is a class D, if you have not heard them, give them a try. Their max amp is priced at $6900. The 4800a developed a loud hum, it was the toroidal transformer, tightened it down but still loud enough to hear. DAC owner Tommy O'Brien offered a fix, that would upgrade it to Mega Maraschino with a linear power supply, at an affordable price. Any of high power cherries will give your 75k amps a run. I run Magnepan speakers, none of the previous amps I used had the absolute silent background, nor detail that the DAC amps have brought out, especially on classical music. All of the above is in my opinion. Good luck in your search for sonic happiness. Jerry |
Cakyol, Then, when you have that perfect ratio of 2:1, and only then, shall you listen to Army of Mushroom, by Infected Mushroom, at full volume. Only then. To do otherwise would surely result in your drivers melting into magma, your cabinets splintering into kindling, and your amp exploding in a mushroom cloud of oxidized metal. Otherwise, it’s a really fun CD. |
There is MORE danger to a speaker from an UNDER powered amplifier than the other way round. This is because an under powered amplifier will CLIP and destroy a speaker if the amp does not have any DC protection circuit. You can obviously destroy a speaker from VASTLY overpowering it but your ears will catch that long before that happens and will force you to turn the volume down whereas during clipping, by the time your ears hear it, it may be too late. A good rule of thumb... Your amp should be probably at least twice as powerful as your speaker rating to avoid clipping. |
So far, my favorite 2 amps have been 45wpc & 35wpc. One SS(45wpc) & one tube @35wpc. The Tube amp replaced a 250wpc SS CJ 2500A. However, the speakers (Silverline) are 93.5db sensitivity. I don't know if that answers the question. But I definitely know that higher wattage does not equal better sound. |
Most of the amps I really like are low in power. This is the case with both solid state and tube gear. I particularly like low-powered tube amps. Of course, the speakers to match with such amps must be high in efficiency and must present a reasonably easy. I also find that some high powered amps sound a bit lifeless if they are idling along at low output so it might be better to not go with really high powered amps if they are to be coupled to higher efficiency speakers/ There is also the possibility of high powered amps damaging a speaker because of a loud pop or other transient noise or someone accidentally cranking the volume. Speakers that are higher in efficiency tend to be capable of taking only modest levels of power before being damaged. |
One interesting little tidbit that I recall is that the radiation had a frequency of several hundred or thousands of light years, now frozen for all eternity. >>>Light years is a distance not a frequency but I know what you mean. Good point as cosmic background radiation is Exhibit A for the Big Bang. |
Speaking of NASA, they put up a satellite many years ago with the goal of measuring very fine variations of the background radiation that permeates the universe. One interesting little tidbit that I recall is that the radiation had a frequency of several hundred or thousands of light years, now frozen for all eternity. Someone was playing some monstrously large bass back in the mists of time. sorry for going off topic. |
fundsgone62 - Sonus Faber Cremonas are hard speakers to drive. I agree they require a lot of power (actually a lot of current) to drive them due to their phase angle at low frequencies. I tried multiple amps on them and ended up with Mark Levinson 432 with 400 watts per channel. However, other speakers can be much easier to drive. It depends so much on the design of the speakers. |
Go with as much clean power as you can afford. Your speakers are $20,000, so a good preamp and amp are in order. I had a pair of Sonus faber Cremonas, rated at 270 watts and 4 ohms, mated to a pair of Classe monoblocks rated at 600 watts into 4 ohms. I was never ever concerned with blowing the speakers - my eardrums are another story. i recently listened to a pair of Sonus faber Nova iii’s connected to various amps, most with output over the Nova’s rated input. All sounded glorious. At ear shredding levels, I think the Mac was putting out 50-60 watts. Ive also listened to speakers connected to amps that are near the bottom of the recommended speaker power input, and the sound at higher volumes was not satisfying. All of the amps that I auditioned wher in the $15000 range. bring your favourite music, a decibel meter, and have a listen at concert levels. |
