Is Rap a valid musical form?

Reading this thread has greatly reinforced my appreciation of enlightened "old geezers" like the late and great John Peel, who’s contribution to our musical culture has been epic..

@mglik With the Slick Rick, NAS, Outkast and Beastie Boys recommendations, I was trying to point you at some of the storytelling rap that is out there. Those albums should make you appreciate the art form. If you want musical, then check out Eminem's Marshall Mathers LP (super vulgar) or anything produced by Dr Dre.

NO...and neither is Techno. 

I think we can agree that most pop (insert genre) is a pretty shallow representation of that genre.  Seeing that hip hop is the most popular genre on the planet currently, there is a lot of crap to search through.  Don't expect to find anything good on a steaming service "top playlist" or by artists gross sales.

Hip hop usually consists of a producer and an MC, so you're listening to two parts. You might find you really enjoy a certain producer but maybe not with certain MC's over their production. And vice versa.

Here's a few songs from ~96 - current that's a deeper look into the genre with easy to listen to beats/samples.

This list turned out to be not very "musical" and therefore not very listenable.

• Slick Rick - The Great Adventures Of Slick Rick (Children's Story is a masterpiece)
• NAS - Illmatic
• Outkast - Stankonia
• Beastie Boys - Licensed to Ill

The Kanye, Jay Z, Ludicrus, Missy Eliot, etc are full of musical themes and counterpoint rap that make them interesting.

"Without sounding like I am beating a dead horse, though, my only complaint with rap is of a musical nature. For the most part, it is too simple, poorly played, repetitive, musically trite for my tastes.

The problem I see, for my tastes, is if there ever was a subgenre of rap that fit my criteria for the music I like (high level of musicianship, complexity, nonrepetitive, deep and broad emotional and intellectual content, it would probably not even be identifiable as rap any longer."

No longer identifiable as Rap any longer? I do think the genre is pretty broad. Some cuts are actually sung!

There are many styles, like poetry. Not as simple as you think, actually very complicated. Many of the songs are real and personal, about growing up, drugs, relationships, loss. For someone to dismiss this is sending a bad signal. Especially when most songs of most genres are about the same topics.

This where I can see the value of rap, and I have stated this earlier in this thread.

The inability of groups of people to communicate their vastly under reported life experiences, is one of the positive aspects of rap. All one has to do is take notice of the mistreatment of African Americans that has come to light with the advent of video cameras on phones, to see why it was probably not out of line for NWA to say, "F*ck tha Police" those years ago.

The number of unarmed black people who have died at the hands of law enforcement, that we know about, is already too great. Who knows how prevalent it was before we had cameras on our phones?

Without sounding like I am beating a dead horse, though, my only complaint with rap is of a musical nature. For the most part, it is too simple, poorly played, repetitive, musically trite for my tastes.

The problem I see, for my tastes, is if there ever was a subgenre of rap that fit my criteria for the music I like (high level of musicianship, complexity, nonrepetitive, deep and broad emotional and intellectual content, it would probably not even be identifiable as rap any longer.

There are many styles, like poetry.  Not as simple as you think, actually very complicated.  Many of the songs are real and personal, about growing up, drugs, relationships, loss.  For someone to dismiss this is sending a bad signal.  Especially when most songs of most genres are about the same topics.

My first idea of a title for this thread was “Enjoying and engaged by Rap”.

I only changed to “Is Rap a Valid Musical Form?” in order to elicit responses.

However, I do feel that my OP clearly explained the former.

I do appreciate the song/ artist suggestions. True that there is nothing better than discovering new music. That is my quest in delving into the world of Hip Hop.

I listened to the first list starting with Kanye. As some mentioned, these selections are almost all incorporating musical themes with the rap. Very interesting to hear the interplay that reminds me of fugues. With clear intent to weave a soundscape.

These tracks also focus on regular, matter of fact subjects and are not merely angry. There are clear stories there. I would listen to more of these artists and will listen to the second list above.

BTW-I looked up the difference between Rap and Hip Hop. Rap is the music and Hip Hop is the culture and world

Seems that a lot of this is "I don't like it so it can't be any good!". Just like my parents when rock music started. And like rock, hip-hop has certainly stood the test of many decades and then some, still going as strong as ever....

I would never say that. Obviously, musical tastes, like all art forms, is a subjective assessment.

With that being said, there are aspects of music that can be assessed objectively.

Musicianship, for example, can be assessed objectively with respect to skill. Musical language (knowledge of music theory) can also be assessed objectively,

Hip-hop has certainly stood the test of time with regards to popularity. Not sure how popularity corelates to quality, though.

+1, I must admit a wry chuckle as I vividly remember the Rolling Stones’ music being debated in this exact fashion amongst my mortified adult peers

Seems that a lot of this is "I don't like it so it can't be any good!". Just like my parents when rock music started. And like rock, hip-hop has certainly stood the test of many decades and then some, still going as strong as ever....

I will reiterate what I said earlier.

My dislike for rap is purely, 100% based on its lack of musical merit. What I mean by lack of musical merit, is it lacks the things I look for in music.

The things it lack are: a very high level of musicianship, complexity (time signatures, chord progressions, harmonies, interplay between musicians, etc), deep and broad range of emotional and intellectual content, avoidance of verse>chorus>bridge structure.

If music does not have all or most of the above attributes, I find it: boring, trite, predictable. It's not like I chose what I like in music, it's just the way I am.

As far as I am concerned, pop: most mainstream rock, most country, lacks musical merit for the same reasons rap does. So, I am not singling out rap.

Just so you know, I am not someone yelling "get off my lawn" at rappers, there are other modern forms of music (even more recent than rap) that I am a fan of. Technical-metal, for example. But then, tech-metal has most of those attributes I mentioned above that I like in music.

@atlvalet:

"A lot of you old blokes are doing it wrong. You’re trying to listen to hip hop through your single ended triode amps. What trash. Get yourself an 80’s era boom box, put that on your shoulder, and strut around your retirement community flexing the classic hip hop jams"

Thanks for the humor!  

.

Johnwatches1.......for something New.....try LEENALCHEE........ Probably the best introduction is on YouTube....." The Tiger is Coming" ......it is a blend of ancient Korean shamanistic folk songs....with a " modern" rhythm section.....I am such a geezer that I don' t really know how to post a link .... But look on YouTube for the video where they have the dance troupe with them.......also the CD is on Spotify....it was independent CD of the year in Korea last year.

@jonwatches1:

Look-- when you make preposterous assertions, chances are, you'll elicit less than charitable  responses. 

Could I have been more polite? Yes, but but you were already on a roll, building upon your frankly absurd comparison between Mayer and Garcia. 

I'm not by nature a combative guy. 

You want to talk about personal tastes? Fine. 

You want to talk about craft and musicianship? Great. 

You want to insist they're one and the same? 

I'm not your guy. 

I'm 70 and I like rap/hip-hop/edm, and other forms of contemporary music; I'd guess that more than a few of the original thinkers here saying 'rap is crap' (how witty!) or something similar are a good bit younger than me, so can we please lay off of the age-ist stuff?

'Boomers' or 'geezers' do not have a monopoly on this attitude, and many 'boomers' do not share that attitude at all.... 

@jonwatches1 - Noooooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! 🤣

This retired person had the stereo that played good bass.  The rest is history.  I have heard lots of it.  I tried.  I do like Tupac, BIG, and others.  Not a fan of the synthetic bass, a cymbal and a vocalist.  So I like the ones that are more musical.  My son explained East, Wesrt, Detroit, gangsta and various others. To say it is not music is being narrow minded.  I don't like slow jazz trio,  I don't care for much chamber music. So there is a button called "next".

Lol @ every geezer posting some variation of "Rap is crap" thinking they’re super witty 😂

A lot of you old blokes are doing it wrong. You’re trying to listen to hip hop through your single ended triode amps. What trash. Get yourself an 80’s era boom box, put that on your shoulder, and strut around your retirement community flexing the classic hip hop jams.

If that makes you feel self-conscious, just slap some Fox News stickers on there and you’ll blend right in.

Rap is crap!!

Those here who are discounting the validity of all rap or hip-hop are being slightly disengenuous. They are each quite familiar with those traditional raps: “Get off my lawn” and “Too many voters don’t look like me”.

(Come on, lighten up everyone. Everything is valid to those to whom its valid)

@bubba_buoy @brandonhall +1

I tried to come up with five songs worth listening to (above). Discuss (since you listen)

(and @larsman and @stuartk absolutely tortured me over an ill-conceived Dead analogy)

@serjio please take 15 minutes of your life and try something new. In turn, I will listen to 15 minutes of any music that you recommend to me. In fact, just make a recommendation, because there’s nothing better than discovering new music

This question is straight out of the 80s. Where do they keep finding geezers who wonder if a decades old music genre is actually music?

Also surprised that the Tucker Carlson  brigade from this forum isn’t out here telling everyone who likes rap that they’re just “virtue signaling”. I’m proud of them.

Mark Smith (The Fall). beat them all to it, by a ”Country Mile”

Good post, @bubba_buoy !

It’s remarkable how many members are conflating a dislike of something, no matter how strong, with validity.

The headline is borderline offensive. Valid?  All you boomers who even found this to be a legit question need to read something. 

I adore me some Jerry Garcia, but next time you're listening to a live show (the only "valid" way to hear The Dead, right?) And accurately describe the melody and harmony of a 15 minute block of time known as "Space". Valid?

Then go put on some avant-garde jazz that sounds like someone making a saxophone squawk spastically and has absolutely no discernible time signature, no discernible key that it's in, and absolutely no sense of rhythm or a chorus/verse of any kind.  Valid?

What about Jackson Pollock's art with all the "random" splatters? No shape, no subject, no identifiable objects....etc.    Valid?

I think modern rap sucks compared to classic hip hop. How the heck are you gonna have a genre about lyrics and verbal skills.that is currently in a place where "mumble rap" is en vogue?  

"This rock and roll fad won't last. I want real music like Sinatra!"

Lord help us if irap's validity is debatable. 

@mglik As others have said, rap is absolutely a valid form of music and anyone who says differently is wildly incorrect. Like all forms of music, there is "good" and "bad" depending on your preferences. I would point you at some older albums such as:

• Slick Rick - The Great Adventures Of Slick Rick (Children's Story is a masterpiece)
• NAS - Illmatic
• Outkast - Stankonia
• Beastie Boys - Licensed to Ill

The above albums will give you a profound respect for the genre. They are classics for a reason. There are many, many others but most are more vulgar, so I'll leave them off.

Musical form?
HELL NO.
It's GARBAGE

Though on occasion I have heard some rap with music in the backgrround
"sampled" from real musicians.

YES - THIS IS A MUSIC FORM ...... BUT THE MOST PRIMITIVE (OVERALL) - A RETURN FROM CIVILIZATION TO THE STONE AGE ...

IF YOU ARE LITTLE YEARS (FOOL BECAUSE OF AGE) - IT IS UNLIKELY YOU WILL LISTEN TO SOMETHING ELSE)))

IN YOUTH, ALMOST EVERYONE LISTEN TO WHAT ADULTS FORBIDDEN .... AND THEN (WHEN THEY GROW UP) REGRET THE LOST TIME ...

BUT - SOME THINGS ARE FUN - FOR A DRUNK PARTY OR A CAR RIDE YOU DO NOT NEED ANOTHER ....

ENGLISH IS ESPECIALLY SUITABLE FOR THIS GENRE

I am taking the 5th....

@mglik - tell us what you think; I’d be really interested in how *you* hear the same pieces of music (and you might conclude that they all suck)

Addendum:

1) Kanye’s delivery is “eh” on that track. But the lyrics and overall structure are so different from what anyone else was doing at that time

3) That song has no melody or harmony. Just a voice, lyrics and beat. Ludacris appreciated by many because his voice is just so BIG

4) Also one of the all-time great stoner songs. You’ll get it when you hear it

5) Totally unconventional song structure; note the last two minutes of the song, where Biggie just flows for line after line after line, telling a story

@jonwatches1 - that does sound funny; thanks for the tip!! 👍

I am 68. Have been a pro musician for most of my life. 
Thanks for the list of stuff to check out.

Listened to Drake “Scorpion” yesterday. Was disappointed. Especially after my incredible experience with Kendrick. It lacked the complex use of musical themes and sound design… for want of a better phrase. 
And the raw energy was missing. That held my interest and was sincerely emotional. This Drake left me feeling “so what?”.

Will check out the list.
 

@stuartk @larsman - the John Mayer reference could be qualified something like “as an objective/technical matter…”. Trust me, I listen to 100 songs by Jerry for every one by John Mayer (basically, his rendition of “Free Fallin”, which is actually good) (i regret ever bringing up the comparison🤦🏻)

Btw, have you ever read the article “Phish Has Been a Band for Thirty Years Now, and They Have Sucked the Whole Time”? Very funny, even if one is a fan

@stuartk re: above you’re a smart guy, you can do better than that in a conversation - we’re here to share ideas

"If music is defined by melody, harmony and rhythm, then somebody needs to go tell Bartok, Schoenberg, Coltrane and Thelonious Monk. Because they didn’t care about any of it"

Right. Whatever you say, chief. 

@whipsaw:

Hey-- fair's fair-- you were right and I was wrong!  

"But let me remain sacrilegious and point out that John Mayer is a better singer, musician and songwriter than Jerry Garcia, by, like, 1000%"

Sure, by all means, point out your OPINION-- we've all got 'em !

@jonwatches1 - Hah! Nothing wrong with a little old time sacreligion! Dunno what the criteria for 'better' would be, but not for me he ain't - never mind ballpark; not even the same planet! Gimme Jerry 👍, not John Mayer 👎! 😃

Interesting that Bach was 'lost' for about 150 years, including just about all of the 19th century, I believe, before he went on his 'Last Tour'! 

@larsman , ok, maybe I said that for a little effect 😂.  But let me remain sacrilegious and point out that John Mayer is a better singer, musician and songwriter than Jerry Garcia, by, like, 1000%. He’s still not Jerry, nor should he want to be

I’m a musical omnivore and really do think there is great art in hip-hop as well.  And, like all music forms, 98% of it will be forgotten in a hundred years. I mean, who remembers what was #2 on the charts in 1723, or whenever Bach finished his cello suites?

@simonmoon , appreciate the thoughtful addition to the conversation

@jonwatches1 - 'Jerry Garcia is just a folksinger who got lucky'? That's the funniest thing I've read this year so far! 🤣🤣🤣

And yes, I love the Dead too, but I sure ain't buyin' THAT!

@atlvalet - I'm 70 and totally enjoy hip-hop, rap, punk, post-punk, etc etc. so maybe all 'boomers' ain't the same, yeah? 

Fun topic

If music is defined by melody, harmony and rhythm, then somebody needs to go tell Bartok, Schoenberg, Coltrane and Thelonious Monk. Because they didn’t care about any of it ( @stuartk )

(I love the dead, but Jerry Garcia is just a folksinger who got lucky)

Here are five songs to try if you haven’t listened to rap or think you don’t like it. Personally, I think a lot of people forget that a lot of rap is funny, and much of it tongue-in-cheek parody. And many don’t really listen to lyrics - structure, rhyme scheme, meter. They just hear the words. And like any art form, understanding context can assist appreciation

This isn’t a “greatest of all time” list.  It’s just a list of good songs that maybe are accessible to a new-comer, and demonstrate some facet of hip-hop/rap worth that is worth understanding 

1) All Fall Down, Kanye West. May expand your mind on the themes of hip-hop. Btw, Kanye literally changed popular music with this album (College Dropout), reintroducing melody and introspection after some years defined by sampling, and then beats.  Bonus track: Breathe In, Breathe Out. So funny, amazing parody

2) Jay-Z, The Story of OJ. Speaks for itself. A song by a 50 year old man, who has seen every side of America (look up who’s providing the backing vocal sample and what they are singing). Sean Carter understands American history with unflinching clarity

3) Ludacris, Southern Hospitality. First, it’s really funny. Second, grab a pencil and parse the rhyme scheme, scansion, form, alliteration, assonance, etc. Chris Bridges is a very shrewd lyricist

4) Missy Elliot, The Rain. Probably the most influential song ever written by a female hip-hop artist. If someone on the thread understands music theory, please explain to us that rhythm. It might as well have come from Mars, because there wasn’t much like it before. Written by Missy and her childhood friend Tim Mosely (“Timbalad”), now considered one of hip-hop’s greatest producers

The Rain also contains the best use of onomatopoeia in all music, at the beginning of the third verse

5) Warning, Biggie. A fantastic example of storytelling in hip-hop.  The song is a journey. And Biggie’s delivery is a good introduction to the concept of “flow”.  The producer, Osten Harvey, is good enough that Miles Davis asked him to produce for him

@mrskeptic + 1 @atlvalet ​​+1 ​@larsman + 1

Sure it’s a valid musical form. Not a very good one, for me, but still valid.

It’s just one I happen to dislike immensely. While I can appreciate the political messages, especially in the earlier days of rap, the simplistic musical delivery system for those messages, is boring, cliché, repetitive, poorly played, IMO. In other words, it has a very limited musical language.

My criteria for what I consider good musical forms are: very high level of musicianship, musical complexity, deep and broad emotional and intellectual content, avoidance of verse>chorus>bridge song structure, no need for simple hooks.

In other words, almost the complete opposite of rap.

And yes, I have listened to rap many times, in all eras. Every time I mention on music forums why I don’t like it, someone will invariably mention rap that they believe fits some of my criteria. Having an open mind, I will listen to it, and always come away disappointed. It is always simple, repetitive, lacks any real musicianship, etc.

Just to sum up, my dislike for rap is purely based on musical content and merit. No other criteria at all enters my judgement. I also put pop, mainstream rock, punk, disco, country at just a slightly higher level than rap, again due to those criteria I mentioned above.

Sure it is—it just sucks!

No

I don't like Big Band, New Country, Hair Metal, or most Pop, either. 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So is bell ringing in or out?

Picky eater are you? :-)

I like Indian music. Belly dancing competitions. :-)

Regards

I think I'll keep my comments to my self and skip over this one....🙄

Yes

I like the story of your journey

(I will come with “5 songs for listening, if you haven’t listened to hip hop”)

@stuartk 

Thanks for your honest re-appraisal.

No. It is a waste of listening time.

Please not this topic again.