Sure it’s a valid musical form. Not a very good one, for me, but still valid.
It’s just one I happen to dislike immensely. While I can appreciate the political messages, especially in the earlier days of rap, the simplistic musical delivery system for those messages, is boring, cliché, repetitive, poorly played, IMO. In other words, it has a very limited musical language.
My criteria for what I consider good musical forms are: very high level of musicianship, musical complexity, deep and broad emotional and intellectual content, avoidance of verse>chorus>bridge song structure, no need for simple hooks.
In other words, almost the complete opposite of rap.
And yes, I have listened to rap many times, in all eras. Every time I mention on music forums why I don’t like it, someone will invariably mention rap that they believe fits some of my criteria. Having an open mind, I will listen to it, and always come away disappointed. It is always simple, repetitive, lacks any real musicianship, etc.
Just to sum up, my dislike for rap is purely based on musical content and merit. No other criteria at all enters my judgement. I also put pop, mainstream rock, punk, disco, country at just a slightly higher level than rap, again due to those criteria I mentioned above.
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I will reiterate what I said earlier.
My dislike for rap is purely, 100% based on its lack of musical merit. What I mean by lack of musical merit, is it lacks the things I look for in music.
The things it lack are: a very high level of musicianship, complexity (time signatures, chord progressions, harmonies, interplay between musicians, etc), deep and broad range of emotional and intellectual content, avoidance of verse>chorus>bridge structure.
If music does not have all or most of the above attributes, I find it: boring, trite, predictable. It's not like I chose what I like in music, it's just the way I am.
As far as I am concerned, pop: most mainstream rock, most country, lacks musical merit for the same reasons rap does. So, I am not singling out rap.
Just so you know, I am not someone yelling "get off my lawn" at rappers, there are other modern forms of music (even more recent than rap) that I am a fan of. Technical-metal, for example. But then, tech-metal has most of those attributes I mentioned above that I like in music.
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Seems that a lot of this is "I don't like it so it can't be any good!". Just like my parents when rock music started. And like rock, hip-hop has certainly stood the test of many decades and then some, still going as strong as ever....
I would never say that. Obviously, musical tastes, like all art forms, is a subjective assessment.
With that being said, there are aspects of music that can be assessed objectively.
Musicianship, for example, can be assessed objectively with respect to skill. Musical language (knowledge of music theory) can also be assessed objectively,
Hip-hop has certainly stood the test of time with regards to popularity. Not sure how popularity corelates to quality, though.
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There are many styles, like poetry. Not as simple as you think, actually very complicated. Many of the songs are real and personal, about growing up, drugs, relationships, loss. For someone to dismiss this is sending a bad signal. Especially when most songs of most genres are about the same topics.
This where I can see the value of rap, and I have stated this earlier in this thread.
The inability of groups of people to communicate their vastly under reported life experiences, is one of the positive aspects of rap. All one has to do is take notice of the mistreatment of African Americans that has come to light with the advent of video cameras on phones, to see why it was probably not out of line for NWA to say, "F*ck tha Police" those years ago.
The number of unarmed black people who have died at the hands of law enforcement, that we know about, is already too great. Who knows how prevalent it was before we had cameras on our phones?
Without sounding like I am beating a dead horse, though, my only complaint with rap is of a musical nature. For the most part, it is too simple, poorly played, repetitive, musically trite for my tastes.
The problem I see, for my tastes, is if there ever was a subgenre of rap that fit my criteria for the music I like (high level of musicianship, complexity, nonrepetitive, deep and broad emotional and intellectual content, it would probably not even be identifiable as rap any longer.
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Since I originally posted on this thread, stating my dislike for RAP based entirely on its musical merit, I have listened to most of what has been recommended.
I'd like to say I discovered something I deem of musical merit, but it was not to be.
Still the same simple song structures, lack of a high level of musicianship*, repetitiveness, lack of sophisticated arrangements (especially harmonically), etc.
So, please don't stereotype me as an old guy yelling at people to get off his lawn. That is not me at all.
My only reason for not liking RAP, is, that it lacks complexity, lacks a high level of musicianship, lacks deep and broad emotional and intellectual content (referring to the music, not the lyrics), it is repetitive, it is too reliant on image and attitude, and not substance (again, referring to musical substance, not lyrical substance).
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@mglik
As said in my OP, Kendrick Lamar’s “To Pimp a 🦋 Butterfly” is as sophisticated musically as any music I know. The musical themes evolve and develop including a brilliant rhythmic rap and sound effects that create “deep and broad emotional and intellectual content”. If you check it out keep an open mind and judge it in its entirety. I think you will find it interesting if not gripping. In my superficial and introductory dive into Rap, it is firmly in the genre yet unique.
So, over the weekend, I had a chance to listen to most of it.
jssmith207 did a pretty good run down.
The sax player, Kamasi Washington, and the bass player, Thundercat, are good players, and I have recordings (non rap) with them, which are quite good.
And while I can say, this album might be creatively a step up from most rap I have heard, it still has all the drawbacks of the genre I have a problem with. Simplistic song structure, unsophisticated harmonies, mediocre musicianship (even though Kamasi and Thundercat play on this album, they don't do anything their skills require), repetitive, etc. Sure, there is some real creativity here, just not in the realm of composition and musicianship.
Sorry if this sounds insulting, but rap, even this recording, is about as musically simple as music can get. Even, with the various layering, sound effects, and overdubs, etc.
Seriously, there are genres and subgenres of music, with ridiculously complex time signatures, complex chord progressions (and more than 3 or 4 chords per song), with very little or no repetition, with musicians that have otherworldly levels of musicianship, and they are still able to convey deep and broad levels of emotional and/or intellectual content, even with no lyrics at all.
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@larsman
good that you checked it out! But does quality, enjoyable music have to be 'musically complex' or 'sophisticated'?
It does for me. Obviously, it doesn't have to be for everyone.
I get bored unless music meets most or all of the criteria* I like in music. And it's not like I made a conscious decision to only enjoy complex and sophisticated music. When I was younger, I just found myself listening to more and more complex and sophisticated music, and getting bored with popular, mainstream forms of music.
*my criteria is: very high level of musicianship, complexity, deep and broad levels of emotional and intellectual content, avoidance of 'hooks' and simple to sing along with melodies, avoidance of verse>chorus>bridge song structure, avoidance of receptiveness,
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@larsman
Seems to me that criticizing hip-hop for lack of 'musical creativity' or whatever, is like criticizing a symphony because you don't like tympani - it's not the point of the music. It's about rhythm and words and the rhythm of words....
I don't understand this post.
My criticism of rap and hip-hop is for exactly the reasons you mention. There is so much more to music than rhythm and words.
Why is criticizing rap for it's main attributes not fair game?
I criticize pop for it's simplistic chord progressions, its repetitiveness, its reliance of a simple hook, its lack of harmonic sophistication.
And I criticize country and mainstream rock, for much he same reasons.
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@holmz
maybe try the group Tool?
I am already a fan of Tool. Not as big a fan as I used to be, but I still like them.
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As long as this zombie thread has been revived 8 months after it's demise, I might as well post again, also.
As my previous posts have made clear, I dislike rap and hip-hop, based purely on what I perceive, musically speaking, as simplistic, lack of instrumental sophistication.
But let me make this clear. From a political point of view, as one of the only outlets African Americans, had to get their word out about how they are mistreated, I support that aspect 100%.
Also, not being knowledgeable, nor a fan of spoken word art forms, I will not judge it from that standpoint.
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