This has been way more than the progression away from tubes to SS!
Believe the world of Hip Hop has been around and evolving for around 5 decades.
And for most of that time I have dismissed and avoided that world and its “music”.
So angry, offensive and abrasive. Just a bunch of rhythmic yelling.
I believe my former thread was titled “Why Rap?”. Through that discussion and somewhat of an understanding that this must be a new art form that engages and entertains millions if not billions. That and a long standing belief that if a type of music or a particular artist attracts many, many fans there must be substance and quality there. Even if I personally don’t particularly like it there must be something there.
Rap and the Hip Hop world was always so foreign and culturally untouchable.
Then my Rap thread and several others at that time got me rethinking my perspective and I watched a video of a group of student performance musicians at Juilliard all exclaiming their fascination with a Rap artist named Kendrick Lemar and his “masterpiece” “To Pimp a Butterfly”. I bought the double LP. Trying to listen to it turned out to be difficult because of my old view of Rap and that of the world of Hip Hop. But it was also becoming clear that this was truly something of significant interest. However, I just listened to the two discs only once-with some difficulty.
Today, after several weeks, I hesitatingly pulled the album out again. And to my surprise and actually delight hearing it with fresh ears it grabbed me and would not let go. I immediately heard the brilliance of a multi faceted, and to me, all new experience in sound. Not unlike great 20th century or progressive Jazz it evolved from section to section with a plethora of fascinating, yes musical, experiences. Tonal, atonal, percussive, rhythmic, breathing combined with incredible, energetic tongue twisting strings of mostly unintelligible words. And not merely angry yelling.
Sure, a ton of F bombs but words that don’t flow over you like lovely other genres but invade the psyche and don’t let go. Not particularly pleasant but gripping and interesting in its complexity. Words delivered with such power and drive which acted as a rhythmic counterpoint. It was impossible to turn away or turn off.
And speaking of turned off, the experience was the opposite of that. Stories of life undeniable human. Yes, driven by bitterness, anger and raw emotion. Impossible to dismiss it as not deeply felt.
I do think “To Pimp a Butterfly” is unique. But I also believe that there must be much more in this Hip Hop world that has deep musical interest. Some time ago I heard Drake on SNL perform a song that was amazing though not really Rap. Rather an advanced and unconventional musical form. I hear similar musical threads throughout “Pimp”. I did get a CD of Drake. “Scorpion”. I also could not absorb it in my first listen. I look forward to the next, fresh listen. I did try to hear several YouTubes of some very successful Rap artists. They mostly lacked the interesting musical themes threaded through. “Pure Rap” with just the rhythmic words-not my cup of tea. But a musically valid form none the less.
@mglik- tell us what you think; I’d be really interested in how *you* hear the same pieces of music (and you might conclude that they all suck)
Addendum:
1) Kanye’s delivery is “eh” on that track. But the lyrics and overall structure are so different from what anyone else was doing at that time
3) That song has no melody or harmony. Just a voice, lyrics and beat. Ludacris appreciated by many because his voice is just so BIG
4) Also one of the all-time great stoner songs. You’ll get it when you hear it
5) Totally unconventional song structure; note the last two minutes of the song, where Biggie just flows for line after line after line, telling a story
@mglik As others have said, rap is absolutely a valid form of music and anyone who says differently is wildly incorrect. Like all forms of music, there is "good" and "bad" depending on your preferences. I would point you at some older albums such as:
Slick Rick - The Great Adventures Of Slick Rick (Children's Story is a masterpiece)
NAS - Illmatic
Outkast - Stankonia
Beastie Boys - Licensed to Ill
The above albums will give you a profound respect for the genre. They are classics for a reason. There are many, many others but most are more vulgar, so I'll leave them off.
The headline is borderline offensive. Valid? All you boomers who even found this to be a legit question need to read something.
I adore me some Jerry Garcia, but next time you're listening to a live show (the only "valid" way to hear The Dead, right?) And accurately describe the melody and harmony of a 15 minute block of time known as "Space". Valid?
Then go put on some avant-garde jazz that sounds like someone making a saxophone squawk spastically and has absolutely no discernible time signature, no discernible key that it's in, and absolutely no sense of rhythm or a chorus/verse of any kind. Valid?
What about Jackson Pollock's art with all the "random" splatters? No shape, no subject, no identifiable objects....etc. Valid?
I think modern rap sucks compared to classic hip hop. How the heck are you gonna have a genre about lyrics and verbal skills.that is currently in a place where "mumble rap" is en vogue?
"This rock and roll fad won't last. I want real music like Sinatra!"
This question is straight out of the 80s. Where do they keep finding geezers who wonder if a decades old music genre is actually music?
Also surprised that the Tucker Carlson brigade from this forum isn’t out here telling everyone who likes rap that they’re just “virtue signaling”. I’m proud of them.
I tried to come up with five songs worth listening to (above). Discuss (since you listen)
(and @larsmanand @stuartkabsolutely tortured me over an ill-conceived Dead analogy)
@serjioplease take 15 minutes of your life and try something new. In turn, I will listen to 15 minutes of any music that you recommend to me. In fact, just make a recommendation, because there’s nothing better than discovering new music
Those here who are discounting the validity of all rap or hip-hop are being slightly disengenuous. They are each quite familiar with those traditional raps: “Get off my lawn” and “Too many voters don’t look like me”.
(Come on, lighten up everyone. Everything is valid to those to whom its valid)
Lol @ every geezer posting some variation of "Rap is crap" thinking they’re super witty 😂
A lot of you old blokes are doing it wrong. You’re trying to listen to hip hop through your single ended triode amps. What trash. Get yourself an 80’s era boom box, put that on your shoulder, and strut around your retirement community flexing the classic hip hop jams.
If that makes you feel self-conscious, just slap some Fox News stickers on there and you’ll blend right in.
This retired person had the stereo that played good bass. The rest is history. I have heard lots of it. I tried. I do like Tupac, BIG, and others. Not a fan of the synthetic bass, a cymbal and a vocalist. So I like the ones that are more musical. My son explained East, Wesrt, Detroit, gangsta and various others. To say it is not music is being narrow minded. I don't like slow jazz trio, I don't care for much chamber music. So there is a button called "next".
I'm 70 and I like rap/hip-hop/edm, and other forms of contemporary music; I'd guess that more than a few of the original thinkers here saying 'rap is crap' (how witty!) or something similar are a good bit younger than me, so can we please lay off of the age-ist stuff?
'Boomers' or 'geezers' do not have a monopoly on this attitude, and many 'boomers' do not share that attitude at all....
@jonwatches1- Noooooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! 🤣
Johnwatches1.......for something New.....try LEENALCHEE........ Probably the best introduction is on YouTube....." The Tiger is Coming" ......it is a blend of ancient Korean shamanistic folk songs....with a " modern" rhythm section.....I am such a geezer that I don' t really know how to post a link .... But look on YouTube for the video where they have the dance troupe with them.......also the CD is on Spotify....it was independent CD of the year in Korea last year.
"A lot of you old blokes are doing it wrong. You’re trying to listen to hip hop through your single ended triode amps. What trash. Get yourself an 80’s era boom box, put that on your shoulder, and strut around your retirement community flexing the classic hip hop jams"
My dislike for rap is purely, 100% based on its lack of musical merit. What I mean by lack of musical merit, is it lacks the things I look for in music.
The things it lack are: a very high level of musicianship, complexity (time signatures, chord progressions, harmonies, interplay between musicians, etc), deep and broad range of emotional and intellectual content, avoidance of verse>chorus>bridge structure.
If music does not have all or most of the above attributes, I find it: boring, trite, predictable. It's not like I chose what I like in music, it's just the way I am.
As far as I am concerned, pop: most mainstream rock, most country, lacks musical merit for the same reasons rap does. So, I am not singling out rap.
Just so you know, I am not someone yelling "get off my lawn" at rappers, there are other modern forms of music (even more recent than rap) that I am a fan of. Technical-metal, for example. But then, tech-metal has most of those attributes I mentioned above that I like in music.
Seems that a lot of this is "I don't like it so it can't be any good!". Just like my parents when rock music started. And like rock, hip-hop has certainly stood the test of many decades and then some, still going as strong as ever....
Seems that a lot of this is "I don't like it so it can't be any good!". Just like my parents when rock music started. And like rock, hip-hop has certainly stood the test of many decades and then some, still going as strong as ever....
I would never say that. Obviously, musical tastes, like all art forms, is a subjective assessment.
With that being said, there are aspects of music that can be assessed objectively.
Musicianship, for example, can be assessed objectively with respect to skill. Musical language (knowledge of music theory) can also be assessed objectively,
Hip-hop has certainly stood the test of time with regards to popularity. Not sure how popularity corelates to quality, though.
My first idea of a title for this thread was “Enjoying and engaged by Rap”.
I only changed to “Is Rap a Valid Musical Form?” in order to elicit responses.
However, I do feel that my OP clearly explained the former.
I do appreciate the song/ artist suggestions. True that there is nothing better than discovering new music. That is my quest in delving into the world of Hip Hop.
I listened to the first list starting with Kanye. As some mentioned, these selections are almost all incorporating musical themes with the rap. Very interesting to hear the interplay that reminds me of fugues. With clear intent to weave a soundscape.
These tracks also focus on regular, matter of fact subjects and are not merely angry. There are clear stories there. I would listen to more of these artists and will listen to the second list above.
BTW-I looked up the difference between Rap and Hip Hop. Rap is the music and Hip Hop is the culture and world
There are many styles, like poetry. Not as simple as you think, actually very complicated. Many of the songs are real and personal, about growing up, drugs, relationships, loss. For someone to dismiss this is sending a bad signal. Especially when most songs of most genres are about the same topics.
There are many styles, like poetry. Not as simple as you think, actually very complicated. Many of the songs are real and personal, about growing up, drugs, relationships, loss. For someone to dismiss this is sending a bad signal. Especially when most songs of most genres are about the same topics.
This where I can see the value of rap, and I have stated this earlier in this thread.
The inability of groups of people to communicate their vastly under reported life experiences, is one of the positive aspects of rap. All one has to do is take notice of the mistreatment of African Americans that has come to light with the advent of video cameras on phones, to see why it was probably not out of line for NWA to say, "F*ck tha Police" those years ago.
The number of unarmed black people who have died at the hands of law enforcement, that we know about, is already too great. Who knows how prevalent it was before we had cameras on our phones?
Without sounding like I am beating a dead horse, though, my only complaint with rap is of a musical nature. For the most part, it is too simple, poorly played, repetitive, musically trite for my tastes.
The problem I see, for my tastes, is if there ever was a subgenre of rap that fit my criteria for the music I like (high level of musicianship, complexity, nonrepetitive, deep and broad emotional and intellectual content, it would probably not even be identifiable as rap any longer.
This list turned out to be not very "musical" and therefore not very listenable.
Slick Rick - The Great Adventures Of Slick Rick (Children's Story is a masterpiece)
NAS - Illmatic
Outkast - Stankonia
Beastie Boys - Licensed to Ill
The Kanye, Jay Z, Ludicrus, Missy Eliot, etc are full of musical themes and counterpoint rap that make them interesting.
"Without sounding like I am beating a dead horse, though, my only complaint with rap is of a musical nature. For the most part, it is too simple, poorly played, repetitive, musically trite for my tastes.
The problem I see, for my tastes, is if there ever was a subgenre of rap that fit my criteria for the music I like (high level of musicianship, complexity, nonrepetitive, deep and broad emotional and intellectual content, it would probably not even be identifiable as rap any longer."
No longer identifiable as Rap any longer? I do think the genre is pretty broad. Some cuts are actually sung!
I think we can agree that most pop (insert genre) is a pretty shallow representation of that genre. Seeing that hip hop is the most popular genre on the planet currently, there is a lot of crap to search through. Don't expect to find anything good on a steaming service "top playlist" or by artists gross sales.
Hip hop usually consists of a producer and an MC, so you're listening to two parts. You might find you really enjoy a certain producer but maybe not with certain MC's over their production. And vice versa.
Here's a few songs from ~96 - current that's a deeper look into the genre with easy to listen to beats/samples.
@mglik With the Slick Rick, NAS, Outkast and Beastie Boys recommendations, I was trying to point you at some of the storytelling rap that is out there. Those albums should make you appreciate the art form. If you want musical, then check out Eminem's Marshall Mathers LP (super vulgar) or anything produced by Dr Dre.
Reading this thread has greatly reinforced my appreciation of enlightened "old geezers" like the late and great John Peel, who’s contribution to our musical culture has been epic..
How one feels about rap/hip hop is a matter of TASTE! If you think White Zinfandel sucks and tastes like crap ....is it INVALID as wine? If it's not wine, what is it? Like it or don't. But don't question it's validity.
It is beyond the pale to imply, or say, that it isn't valid as music. I think AL poetry should rhyme, but I'd never call a non-rhyming poem invalid. Who am I (or you) to say otherwise.
I think avant-garde jazz is as unlistenable. Still valid. Who am I to say otherwise?
This is a huge, ugly, cultural blindspot to question the validity of any creative endeavor simply because you don't like it. You don't know hip hop well enough to judge it's validity if you honestly think it lack melody. Dig a little deeper. READ ALONG WITH THE LYRICS AS THEY GO. It downright literary. Major major blindspot.
@mglik - thanks for taking a listen, glad you saw something in the songs, even if not your cup of tea
@krimsonhead - thanks! I will give it a listen and let you know what I think
@mglik - btw, what are some things you’d have people listen to that might be new to them? ( @simonmoon- would be great to know the same from you. An interesting side discussion based on your thoughts would be “great singers with ok voices”, of which I think there are a lot of examples - but maybe not in genres you like)
Nas "One Mic". Public Enemy "Brothers Gonna Work It Out" Outkast "Rosa Parks", Eric B and Rakim "Don't Sweat The Technique", Gang Starr "Take It Personal", Eminem "White America", Biggie "Everyday Struggle". Tupac "Brenda Got A Baby" And on and on.
They're as lyrically significant as The Times They Are A-changin' or AMY other protest song you've ever heard.
@daledeee1give a listen to “Jungle Jay” by Olu Dara, the jazz musician (from his album, “In the World”
The vocalist is his son, Nas. May not be your cup of tea, but I think an interesting example of where genres can go, and circle back on their origins. And it’s just about a perfect example of the singular flow of Nas, who toys with rhyme, rhythm and meter and makes it look effortless. Four minutes of your life. Let us know what you think
@simonmoon on YouTube, check out Rick Beato’s channel (appreciate it’s widely known). Real musician. He does, among other things, a series called “What makes this song great?” What’s interesting is his analysis of the underlying musical theory in songs written by people who don’t know anything about musical theory, but nevertheless exhibit such in their music. Check out Ep 105, Seal, Kiss from a Rose
And you might like ixi music on YouTube, as well - she’s a real musician with an gift for exegesis who does breakdowns of NIN songs. Check out her breakdown of “March of the Pigs”, or, longer form, “Closer”. The “March of the Pigs” breakdown is great, because to most people that song sounds like a bomb going off - but there is intent behind every note. Trent Reznor is, of course, a trained musician who actively employs theory in his composition. The Closer breakdown is engrossing
I’d love to know what you think! (You may think it’s all nonsense, but I am thinking of the aspects of music you’ve described as interesting to you)
They Reminisce Over You by Pete Rock and CL Smooth
T.R.OY. this is a song that is every bit the storytelling tour de force that Hurricane by Bob Dylan is, about his good friend Troy and the terrible circumstances by which Troy lived and died. If a song made entirely in a synthesizer or a computer is musically valid then I don't know what isn't musically valid. But rap and hip hop when it's not the most commercialized crap just like all the other genres, is folk music.
Whatever people think is music is music. But to me, rap is just a bunch of bad poetry with nothing of what I'd personally call music backing it.
I sampled that Kendrick Lamar. Yep, same old monotonous programmed bass lines and percussion, unimaginative moronic lyrics, almost no instruments and what there are could be played by a beginner-to-intermediate player, and no vocal ability. These Walls is the closest song to what I consider music, sounding similar to something out of the late 70's. If this is what Julliard thinks is talent it seems like they've dumbed down like the rest of post-secondary education.
It is. It seems like a lot of the discussion is premised on taste and subjectivity, versus facts. To discount hip hop as “not music” would be ignoring the facts that at any given moment, hip hop artists or music inspired by hip hop culture take up a number of Top 10 spots in Billboard Top 100 (just looking at the latest and it’s 4) or Grammy noms and wins, that hip hop music does in fact have a mix of melody x harmony x rhythm (not all, obviously, but the same can be said about many artists and songs from other genres), and in general, like any popular music genre, it’s become a dominant force in popular culture today — influencing everything from style to entertainment (think what Kanye did for Adidas or Gap; or 88Rising, a Korean hip hop label, doing all the music for Marvel’s Shang Chi, just to name a few). Not to mention all the academic definitions of hip hop including the word “music” to describe it.
Not sure personal preference should be coloring how rap/hip hop, or any music genre, is being objectively defined.
To add to some of the recommendations for those who maybe haven’t found hip hop they like… Also try Kanye West’s album ‘My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy’. Try starting with Runaway, Dark Fantasy, All of the Lights, and Power. Expertly produced, a convergence of different music genres, tons of rhythm, melody and harmony. One of the all time greats over the last 10+ years.
I’ll say, of course Rap/Hip-Hop is music, because what is "music" anyway? Well, ultimately, whatever I believe it is. It’s interesting for me to see someone else's "list", or hear them discuss their choices for "music". They do not have to validate my choices.
The Native Tongues is where my heart lies. If you are ever lucky enough to see De La Soul in person do. They will get the whole venue dancing and singing. I was very very lucky to get to see Tribe open for the Beastie Boys at MSG. Paul's Boutique is a masterpiece.
@krimsonhead I listened to Leenalchi and it’s just fxcking bonkers in the best way possible. Love child of The Talking Heads, Bjork and B-52’s, and totally original. Great party music, and something I would never have heard of without your recommendation. Thanks!
K-Pop?! I can’t remember hearing anything more musically sophisticated and fascinating. Talk about counterpoint! Two bass guitars a drummer and 4 singers “speaking” on pitch. Yea, Talking Heads, Bjork and the B-52s dream of what they could become. I can’t get them out of my head. Hope they have LPs. If not I absolutely will buy whatever they have recorded!
So far, Kendrick Lamar “To Pimp a Butterfly” is the most engaging Rap I have heard. But Leenalchi is amazing. For sure, an evolution of Rap.
@jonwatches1@krimsonheadI listened to those songs and enjoyed them. Little tough to listen to lady singer. The band and rap were integrated well. PS KC fan here. Post metal with detail.
Back in the day it was fun to follow all the introduction of synthethizers into fusion, prog rock ambient and others as technology became mainstream.
I remember a Duane Allman interview in which he said there is no bad music. I agree. There is music I like and music I don't like but I never presume to say any music is bad just because I don't like it.
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