Is Modern Jazz an Oxymoron?

I think “modern jazz” is meaningless. Fusion, hard bop, funk, classic jazz, smooth are more appropriate. If you want to say when records were released, fine. I tend to like hard bop or classic- Miles, Trane, Wes Montgomery, Sonny Rollins, Milt Jackson, Lee Morgan, Stan Getz, Jimmy Smith. I also like some smoother artists like Pat Metheny Earl Klugh, and George Benson, and some Bob James, although he is a little too prolific. I used to listen to Spyro Gyra but grew out of it.

Jaulbrich, 

***so many young guys have come out NEC and Berkley where they learned to meld classical music with jazz. Yuck! Combining the two is an art form, but it is not jazz or classical. ***

What do base this on?  Meld classical with jazz?  Would love to hear an example of this.  Not that not it doesn’t happen, but “so many?” .  

@jaulbrich 

agree

chris potter and dave holland are true masters, still at the top of their craft

awesome skills and musicality

I stream Tidal and stumbled into a an album titled:
Weltentraum Live (Philharmonie Berline)
Released 10/31/2014
Track 8 titled Little Person (live)

This piece captured my attention.  Wait until you hear the string bass come in.  Rich low notes just fill in the low end.  This piece would be a great demo piece to listen to a system.  The recording is just stunning.  The sound stage just captures everything.  Just wish I could have been there.  It is just a one of a kind piece you won't forget.  His piano work is really well done.  What a tight group.

Agree totally. I love bebop jazz, especially the 60's. 

Check out KSDS Jazz 88.3 from San Diego, they usually hit the sweet spot for old school jazz. Mike LeDonne is a great current practitioner. Also whoever Ron Carter and Tony Williams are playing with (but they're pretty old too). 

"Is modern jazz an oxymoron?"

No, but smooth jazz is a misnomer. It's neither smooth, nor jazz.

LOL .. so true. Although, to be fair, I think there may be one or two who are a cut above. Chris Botti comes to mind. I saw him live years ago when he opened for Sting and he was fantastic. Not exactly my cup of tea at this point in time but I still enjoy listening to him on occasion.

Chris Potter and any band he plays with, especially Dave Holland groups.  My biggest pet peve has already been mentioned...so many young guys have come out NEC and Berkley where they learned to meld classical music with jazz.  Yuck!  Combining the two is an art form, but it is not jazz or classical.  Maybe it is Clazz...

Feef, if you like oud, you might like "Rabih Abou Khalil"; I have 5 of his CD's


                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2biLSMIGTs8


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKz3_33NJHU


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8jTnAq8iS0


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgklgAAlzEE


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwJsUcfgT2E

Orpheus, I cannot overstate my jealousy about seeing Coltrane live. What you say about Muriel Grossman resonates with me. I was very happy to have found her recently, and she makes me excited for the state of things, jazz wise.  And yeah, the Brahja is wild - came on my radar because of Sam Shilabi's involvement (I'm in Montreal and he was in a ton of bands around here over the years. Killer oud player.)

"Is modern jazz an oxymoron?"

No, but smooth jazz is a misnomer. It's neither smooth, nor jazz.

“The silence between the notes say more than the notes” - Miles Davis

This is the first time I ever heard Muriel Grossman, and naturally I am comparing her to "Trane".

I saw "Trane" at a nightclub that didn't even have a stage for the performers. A space in the middle of the floor was allocated for them to play in. We, my girlfriend, another couple, and a professional drummer (it seems every professional musician in town was there) had a table next to the space where the musicians were playing, (that's so much more intimate than an auditorium)

When I closed my eyes and listened to Trane, he was right in my ear. His sound is printed on my mind like no other; he was playing the soprano sax at this performance, and Muriel also plays the soprano sax.

The point I want to make is that my intimate connection with Trane enables me to make a comparison like few others. The differences (sound and presentation) between the two are concurrent with their physical appearances. If you listen intently, you will hear where I'm coming from; her sound while similar to Trane, has a beautiful femininity, his sound has a strong masculinity.

I believe Muriel will stand the test of time and create great works over many years.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nxpGUNs6Mo

BRAHJA-In The Mess looks like one of the LSD trips I went on, when I was doing such things. I think that's what It's meant to duplicate. I find it positively mesmerizing, but somehow it's not the same without the video.

Feef, Muriel is very interesting; while obviously influenced by Trane, she still has her own message. I will add her to my collection. Thanks for submitting Muriel.

Trentmemphis, I think we all listen to other artists in addition to what you called "The Golden Era", but I know I always return to "The Golden Era".


Enjoy the music.

I, too, lean very heavily to the "golden era" stuff.  But, I will heartily second (or third) some of the contemporary names already mentioned: Josh Redman, Brad Mehldau, Christian McBride, (throw in Brian Blade for the entire original Redman quartet) . . . and now I've already forgotten who else has already been mentioned.

I think Gregory Porter is doing some interesting things, but his material is pretty uneven.  He's more in the "keep an eye on" category, for me.  There are a few female vocalists I think are doing very good to excellent work: Melody Gardot, Cecile McLorin Salvant, Madeline Peyroux, and, yes, Diana Krall.  Is anybody there pushing the envelope?  No.  Do I give a tinker's durn about envelope pushing?  I do not.

I know I'm forgetting some people.

Been loving the records on the RR Gems label from Estonia.
Muriel Grossman - Coltrane worship but still sounds new and exciting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3wnXDribCY&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=RRGEMSRecords) 
Soft Power
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2zM_rs2dXQ&feature=emb_logo&ab_channel=SoftPower-Topic
Brahja
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMkEMaO3CFk&feature=emb_logo

I would say that "modern jazz" began with "Bebop"; that was the most revolutionary departure from the jazz that had come before. While "Bebop" didn't last that long, the musicians who were instrumental in creating "Bebop" are still "in vogue" today.

Charlie Parker, and Dizzy Gillespie led the way in Bebop, which evolved into modern jazz as we know it today. I am of the opinion that you should let your ears do the talking, just as in a buffet, you would let your taste buds do the talking.

If you ventured over to my thread, "Jazz For Aficionados", which has gone on for years, you would discover the best jazz that's been created since the beginning of "modern jazz" Extremely astute aficionados have left their indelible marks on this thread. The albums they've recommended have enabled me to expand my collection to the point that I no longer actively spend time in an attempt to expand it. If I did, I wouldn't have time to listen to all the killers I have accumulated as a result of purchasing their recommendations.

I can not think of a more pleasurable way to spend a day than listening to the best music on the best equipment. (especially since I am of that age, that precludes more strenuous activities which I considered quite desirable in my youth)

You simply thumb through the pages of "Jazz For Aficionados" and let your ears do the talking, the same as you would in a buffet where you let your taste buds do the talking; you simply sample this, that, and the other thing to determine what you like best. When someone tells you how fantastic an artist is, you have to find a way to hear that artist, in order to determine for yourself, whether or not that artist is so fantastic according to your tastes.

On "Jazz For Aficionados", you only have to click on the link that has been provided and hear the artist that someone else thinks is so fantastic; maybe you'll agree, maybe you wont.


Enjoy the music.

All beautiful music. My kind of jazz. Ingrid Jensen is in the group Artemis which jjss49 recommended earlier. It’s a really good album (to my ear). I also recommend it.

ARTEMIS - The Sidewinder - YouTube

It’s my turn to apologize for questioning your humility and integrity, frogman. Your post was not what I expected to read this morning. I should be more careful about what I assume about others from their posts.

Now, back to jazz and the enjoyment we get from it.

Tomcy6, you’re right and I apologize. You did not say that all contemporary Jazz is skronking and bashing. You were referring to a trend as perceived by you. I get it. Sorry. Having said that I still disagree about there being a trend in that direction. There is no question that Jazz has turned toward the atonal and rhythmically obtuse. Liking or appreciating that trend is a personal sensibility and not an indication of a trend that is negative for every listener. That was the point that I was making and I should not have directed my comment directly at you and I removed the post.  

There is so much good new jazz out there that it's impossible to keep up with it all, esp. with Tidal at one's fingertips.

I'm enjoying Yazz Ahmed's latest, she can play the trumpet, and Thana Alexa's "Ona" is interesting too. The rhythm section is excellent. 

Fabian Almazan is one of my favorite musicians on the scene. His music is both beautiful (romantic really) and original. His wife Linda May Han Oh is putting out some serious music as well.

Will Vinson's "four forty one" features some fine playing. Everything he plays make sense, is a statement. Plus the album features a who's who of current jazz heavies. 

Brilliant musicians like Coltrane and Miles never let their music ossify. Their tastes were ever changing. We would do well to attempt to do the same.

Big fan of the Marsalis family.

Happy Listening!

The last good modern stuff I bought was a host of Wynton Marsalis stuff when he first hit the scene. Other than that, I stick to acquiring the old stuff. Johnny hodges, miles, hank Mobley, thelonious, cannonball, the bird, ella, nina, sarah V etc...

An important part of being a good listener is having a little humility about it all. We may not like it, but this doesn’t necessarily mean it is no good.

Hey frogman, Take your own advice and learn a little humility. I did not dismiss all contemporary jazz as no good or just skronking and bashing. I did note that the trend in contemporary jazz is for more skronking and bashing and asked a question to try and understand this trend.

Please read my post again and apologize, if you have the humility and integrity required to do so.  My guess is that you have neither.

I think we be there.

*****BS*****-- Mahgister


P.S. my post is only about the conscious realization that a post consisting only in these 2 words "BS" is "non sense"...
Then i apologize to all for being non sensical in my answering post....



I apologize to ROK also, i just realized that with this stupid post consisting of this 2 letters only , he is right, and i am wrong, we are there, like he said...

:)

« Stupidity is contagious»- Groucho Marx

« Is it only a mass phenomena?»- Harpo Marx

« The disease must come from someone»-Chico Marx

«Nevermind if we all suffer» -Groucho Marx

‘we shall be overwhelmed with things that are tenth-rate’.

Prophecy of the great Classical Conductor Hebert von Karajan

I think we be there.

Cheers

Whoopycat, while I'm in the other camp, I've ordered the British Afro Jazz.


                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz9iPxElk0k


                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzZUJ8oxgxw

Check out singer Gregory Porter's release All Rise! In the same class as Nat King and Freddie Cole! A superb vocalist!

Here's music that I have on my playlist and in the car; it never gets old, maybe that's because it's the "undisputed" high priest of modern jazz; Charles "Yardbird" Parker, his "Bird With Strings" never gets old.


          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP7E0K4IMqo


         

Note that modern jazz...whatever it is...is relatively unpopular and always has been, and it's 95% of what I listen to. It rates just below children's music and maybe above polka. Luckily I have managed to find a LOT of "newer" stuff that is astonishing, from Vijay Iyer and Bill Frisell to Ingrid Laubrock and too many others to even try to mention. I refuse to listen to polka...I just do...

Go to Bandcamp and there are tons of new jazz artists making killer music.  Also realize jazz (like it has always done) has grown to embrace other music such as, but not limited to, hip hop.  There is a great scene of what I will call British afro-jazz, with heavy influences of afrobeat.  Sons of Kemet would an example.  Someone also mentioned Kamasi Washington, another example of creating jazz in a decidedly modern vein.  I picked up an album by a bassist named Junius Paul that just slams.  

I love Mingus and Monk as much as the next guy but you gotta seek in order to find.

First, want to plug Jazzcast.ca for running a fairly modern Internet radio station.

Next, well, this is such a broad statement. I could consider both Coltrane and Keith Jarrett modern jazz artists, and yet I definitely have one I can listen to and be entranced by and one I cannot.

And there is plenty of great musicians also now even in jazz....
But for sure not one exceed Chet Baker or Bill Evans

*****BS*****--Rok

**** Passion is not always humble»- anonymus ****

I like that. Very true; especially that of the artist.

« We cannot always spell each pieces of evidence»-Groucho Marx

«Passion is not always humble»- anonymus

But for sure not one exceed Chet Baker or Bill Evans.... 😛

you forgot to say,"in my very, very, very humble opinion."

Cheers

BoBo Stenson and Kenneth Wheeler are contemporary geniuses and very different in style than my beloved Chet Baker....Paolo Fresu is not Baker but a very great contemporary artist in his own way and i owned all his cd....Sun Ra is also one i admire and i dont like many of his oceanic output, but when he is good he is a genius....Free jazz or not....

I dont like really so much an era, or a style, i like what seems geniuses to me of whatever era or style never mind...And there is plenty of great musicians also now even in jazz....

But for sure not one exceed Chet Baker or Bill Evans or can replace it in my heart.... 😛
It is true in jazz but also in classical music.... Scriabin is a so great incredible genius but cannot exceed or replace Bach, no one can...

Discovering new music or new genius is possible only if we forgot what we love so much and listen without judgment with the heart and the body or the brain.....

Different sounds modify our body or soul metabolism in different way, it is interesting to ask ourselves what this musician or this music do to me in my  heart, brain, and body?

Ask this question and you will be surprized...

One of my childhood friend who worked all his life in a jailhouse said to me one time, after i advocate for the use of classical music all day long in the jail, that it will be the best way to provoke violence and riot....

I begin to understand that the soul must individually prepared itself to experience something that will not be an immediate negative reaction....

Then all our life is habits at all scale, even our musical life and to modify it we must modify OURSELF, our way of listening and we must prepare the organ (heart, brain, body) with which we are listening....





« Music cook my heart, brain and body, eat me now»- Groucho Marx

tablejockey -- thanks for intoning Chuck Niles' name.  I listened to his show obsessively.  I lapse into a Chuck Niles imitation whenever the word "jazz" comes into my head.

If you’re a fan of Jazz piano trios check out this rather lengthy thread:

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/18046-are-we-living-in-the-golden-age-of-the-jazz-piano-trio/?tab=comments#comment-277594

It was started about 7 years ago by a guy who’s taste and knowledge is exemplary (he also writes a Jazz/Classical blog). I’ve discovered a lot of great contemporary artists reading this thread.

1) we should do and listen to what makes us happy, we all have limited time and attention span

2) najee/david sanborn etc has been out there for 30+ years - imo modern jazz should be defined as currently produced in or near the present day, by artists that are emerging in the present day -- to billie holliday and charlie christian, miles davis in the 60’s was modern jazz... but not today in 2020

3) for best of modern jazz, i would recommend a few names as starters -- ibrahim maaloof (40 melodies), anjelique kidjo (celia), artemis (self titled first album), christian mcbride (quartet and big band releases new one dedicated to wes montgomery), joey alexander (any), cecile mclorin salvant (any)

4) here are some recent albums by wonderful, established artists - eliane elias (dance of time), eddie henderson (be cool), chris potter (dreamer is the dream), bill frisell (valentine), eric reed (such a time as this)

happy listening

Since I'm short timing, and don't have forever, I'll go along with my friend Rok; he's been discovering so much new "old" jazz, that we wont have to re-discover what's called "new-jazz". Thank you very much, but we don't need none.

@jjss49   Thanks for the reference to the NYT listing.  Going through the titles now.  Liking what I'm hearing so far from Immanuel Wilkins!  The rhythm section is very reminiscent of Hancock, Carter and Williams.  Definitely up my alley.

Does everyone define "modern jazz" differently? I listen to I what I consider modern jazz...Boney James, Najee, David Sandborn, Kirk Whalum, Brian Culbertson, Paul Brown, and many more. Some call what I consider modern jazz, "smooth jazz".

we who have lived a lot of life and heard a lot of music in our younger more impressionable years are burdened by our memories and our sense of how certain music should sound - that can inhibit our enjoying new forms new creations

btw - the ny times just released a nice list of their top 10 jazz albums of 2020... some old and some new artists... worth checking out

i would also say that to me, the greatest joy of music streaming is its enabling our ability to experience new music

I'm not much of a fan of 1970's+ Jazz.

That's when fusion and "Smooth Jazz" took over. Not that  there's anything wrong with it. Anyone that's a SoCal FM listener will remember the great Chuck Niles on KLON. He would talk about his disdain for "Smooth Jazz"

I don't even care much for modern vocalists resurrecting standards. Most fall flat with their attempts IMO. You can't replace Ellla,Billie,Sarah,Dinah etc.

I've been on a Blossom Dearie kick lately. Found a couple of RARE LP's awhile back. Fabulous.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hGjzuXchGg

Free jazz should be free, they should just give it away to anybody who wants it.

Don Cherry, one of my favorite musicians, went there for a minute or two, and that record I have with his "free jazz" could serve well as a frisbee cause it ain't worth two cents as a record.