I think I'm pretty much in the same boat as you. The newer jazz I like tends to be done by the older guys in jazz like Chick Corea and Charles Lloyd. I do like much of the material that Joshua Redman and Christian McBride put out. Occasionally I will stumble on something new to me like Daniel Carter but he's actually an old guy too. I like the new material that Bill Frissel and John Scofield put out but they are now old too. But like you, the vast majority of the time i'm listening to 50s-70s jazz as well. There is plenty for to still explore in that era that stirs my soul.
Is Modern Jazz an Oxymoron?
I am a huge jazz fan and 90% of my listening time is listening to instrumental jazz artists from the classic jazz era of 1950's to 1970's. Excluding jazz singers and a few more recent jazz artist who play classic jazz style I can't stand modern jazz.
My question to jazz fans is if it is my limitation or is this a common thing amongst classic jazz fans? Or did you finally come around and learned to appreciate modern jazz? If so which artists?
My question to jazz fans is if it is my limitation or is this a common thing amongst classic jazz fans? Or did you finally come around and learned to appreciate modern jazz? If so which artists?
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3_E_P, All those artist you list I also like. I was trying to make a point and may have been to strict limiting myself to the 70's because there are a number of latter artist I like but they do all play that early style of improvisational jazz. Ray Brown Trio; Gene Harris Trio; and the ones you listed. Some more modern jazz singers are timeless if they are good so I don't limit them to a period like Carmen McRae, Karrin Allyson and Kurt Elling. But todays (post 80's) jazz instrumentalists sound to me to be all about precision and accuracy with a few exceptions, not about improvisation and emotion. Today's jazz musicians sound like classical music players who switched to jazz. |
Billy Child’s latest. He co leads Ravinia’s RMSI Master Class so he knows his way around ALL jazz. Grammy winner, Monterrey Jazz, Lincoln Center etc. Besides, Scofield and MSW keep moving forward. Often together. Among many others. If you only like vinyl you are stuck listening to a finite conglomeration of "old" stuff. Over and over. |
Long-time Jazz listener. I love the old Blue Note (and similar-era) albums but my need to discover and listen to those has peaked. Same with 70’s fusion. Always searching and manage to find something, even post-80’s. But I’ll bet if I stratified my Jazz collection by decade the bulk of it would be from the 50’s to the 70’s. It’s easier to identify the things that have stood the test of time, as hindsight is 20/20. Some of the guys mentioned above - Scofield, Corea and Coltrane - have all done some things that are “out there” that would qualify as the dreaded “modern jazz.” The younger guys that play with Lloyd - and one day McBride & Redman (and Tom Harrell) - they will carry the torch and will be the ones to listen too. The point about sounding like classical players who switched to Jazz - applies to a lot of ECM stuff. Just some random thoughts I guess. |
It's like any other age and genre. There's some great music out there and a lot of crap. Check out this clip of Jeff "Tain" Watts' group playing very modern composition in 2011. It's a very difficult piece of music with changing tempos in every section, but these guys make it sound very listenable, even to someone who thinks the 50's-60's were jazz's high point. You need to look. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPpciCh4i0Q |
It is hard to put jazz into neat categories. The jazz I like has melody or rhythm or something that I can recognize, maybe described as a song. The musicians can depart from the melody or rhythm and become discordant or whatever, but remain connected to the song or composition or whatever they are playing. Jazz musicians today increasingly seem to want to be less connected to a song. They don’t seem to want any structure. They want to be able to just blow and skronk and maybe connect with one another a couple of times in a piece of music. There is no rhythm section that keeps the group anchored. Drums are now a lead instrument and the drummer is back there bashing away with no connection to what anyone else is doing. That’s the way it sounds to me anyway. I’m not a musician. That said, I do find quite a bit of jazz that does have structure, sounds nice and has musicians playing together. It’s not as common as during the classic Blue Note years, but there’s still a lot of jazz musicians doing this. That leads me to a question I’ve long wondered about. Can anyone explain to me why jazz musicians like to blow and skronk and bash so much? Is that hard to do? It seems to me that improvising in some kind of structure would require greater artistry than everyone just making noises on their instruments. Does it? |
I saw Miles at a concert when I was going to a company school in Chicago for the entire Summer of 68 (that was incredible, Chicago was the place to be) and I hooked up with three other guys who were going to the same school. They were from Bed Stuy New York, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh; what a foursome we made: Bed Stuy in his "Dashiki" and sandals, Pittsburgh in a 3 piece suit, me and Cleveland just wore shirt and slacks. This was a diverse group, but I never had so much fun in my life. The school was in Des Plaines, which is a suburb of Chicago, so we had to rent a car, and when we toured Chicago, everyone was expected to take his turn at the wheel. That's when we discovered Bed Stuy couldn't drive. We could not believe a grown man couldn't drive; put that in Ripley's "Believe it or not". Bed Stuy couldn't drive but he had other talents, he was a connoisseur of bongs and hash pipes, the first place he wanted to go was the "head shop". I liked the fragrances of all the different incense, so many of them were burning at one time. (those were the best of times for Chicago, we had fun all over Chicago, except for the West Side, the South side was cool at that time, and of course the rich North Side was just that, for the rich) Someone discovered there was a concert with Miles, Nina Simone, and Herby Mann all on the same ticket; you know we couldn't miss that. I forgot who bought the tickets, but we had seats that were up higher than some planes I had flown on; I knew the prices on those tickets were too reasonable. Miles was first out; I was wondering when did Miles start playing with guys wearing buckskin vests with long fringes. (like I said, we were really high up and I couldn't tell that it was Miles himself wearing the buckskin vest with long fringes) Fortunately for us, one of those monster Chicago Storms came up and a lot of people who had good seats on the ground floor didn't show. We looked at the empty seats for a little while and came down out of the sky. You could see what the artists looked like without binoculars. Miles came on strong with his new music, and I looked at Bed Stuy (guys from New York always know everything about jazz) "That's Miles new music", he responded. I still think it's got a few kinks in it, I think he should take it back to the drawing board and work the kinks out. Bed Stuy was too into the music to hear me. Herby Mann looked good and sounded good; he had on a tan suit, and highly polished light brown boots; the same as on one of his album covers. Out of the three, Nina Simone stole the show, she was a fantastic performer. The Summer of 68 was the best of times, as well as the worst of times for Chicago. |
modern jazz is alive and well one needs an open mind to hear what the younger artists are expressing - often it is worth the patience and journey i have sat on the board of one of the most successful big city presenters of jazz (still support it through charitable contributions) now with its own lovely performance hall... we have cultivated local young artists through the educational programs and try to bring new talent to the attention of the loyal fans base... |
I'm not much of a fan of 1970's+ Jazz. That's when fusion and "Smooth Jazz" took over. Not that there's anything wrong with it. Anyone that's a SoCal FM listener will remember the great Chuck Niles on KLON. He would talk about his disdain for "Smooth Jazz" I don't even care much for modern vocalists resurrecting standards. Most fall flat with their attempts IMO. You can't replace Ellla,Billie,Sarah,Dinah etc. I've been on a Blossom Dearie kick lately. Found a couple of RARE LP's awhile back. Fabulous. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hGjzuXchGg |
we who have lived a lot of life and heard a lot of music in our younger more impressionable years are burdened by our memories and our sense of how certain music should sound - that can inhibit our enjoying new forms new creations btw - the ny times just released a nice list of their top 10 jazz albums of 2020... some old and some new artists... worth checking out i would also say that to me, the greatest joy of music streaming is its enabling our ability to experience new music |
1) we should do and listen to what makes us happy, we all have limited time and attention span 2) najee/david sanborn etc has been out there for 30+ years - imo modern jazz should be defined as currently produced in or near the present day, by artists that are emerging in the present day -- to billie holliday and charlie christian, miles davis in the 60’s was modern jazz... but not today in 2020 3) for best of modern jazz, i would recommend a few names as starters -- ibrahim maaloof (40 melodies), anjelique kidjo (celia), artemis (self titled first album), christian mcbride (quartet and big band releases new one dedicated to wes montgomery), joey alexander (any), cecile mclorin salvant (any) 4) here are some recent albums by wonderful, established artists - eliane elias (dance of time), eddie henderson (be cool), chris potter (dreamer is the dream), bill frisell (valentine), eric reed (such a time as this) happy listening |
If you’re a fan of Jazz piano trios check out this rather lengthy thread: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/18046-are-we-living-in-the-golden-age-of-the-jazz-piano-trio/?tab=comments#comment-277594 It was started about 7 years ago by a guy who’s taste and knowledge is exemplary (he also writes a Jazz/Classical blog). I’ve discovered a lot of great contemporary artists reading this thread. |
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BoBo Stenson and Kenneth Wheeler are contemporary geniuses and very different in style than my beloved Chet Baker....Paolo Fresu is not Baker but a very great contemporary artist in his own way and i owned all his cd....Sun Ra is also one i admire and i dont like many of his oceanic output, but when he is good he is a genius....Free jazz or not.... I dont like really so much an era, or a style, i like what seems geniuses to me of whatever era or style never mind...And there is plenty of great musicians also now even in jazz.... But for sure not one exceed Chet Baker or Bill Evans or can replace it in my heart.... 😛 It is true in jazz but also in classical music.... Scriabin is a so great incredible genius but cannot exceed or replace Bach, no one can... Discovering new music or new genius is possible only if we forgot what we love so much and listen without judgment with the heart and the body or the brain..... Different sounds modify our body or soul metabolism in different way, it is interesting to ask ourselves what this musician or this music do to me in my heart, brain, and body? Ask this question and you will be surprized... One of my childhood friend who worked all his life in a jailhouse said to me one time, after i advocate for the use of classical music all day long in the jail, that it will be the best way to provoke violence and riot.... I begin to understand that the soul must individually prepared itself to experience something that will not be an immediate negative reaction.... Then all our life is habits at all scale, even our musical life and to modify it we must modify OURSELF, our way of listening and we must prepare the organ (heart, brain, body) with which we are listening.... « Music cook my heart, brain and body, eat me now»- Groucho Marx |
Go to Bandcamp and there are tons of new jazz artists making killer music. Also realize jazz (like it has always done) has grown to embrace other music such as, but not limited to, hip hop. There is a great scene of what I will call British afro-jazz, with heavy influences of afrobeat. Sons of Kemet would an example. Someone also mentioned Kamasi Washington, another example of creating jazz in a decidedly modern vein. I picked up an album by a bassist named Junius Paul that just slams. I love Mingus and Monk as much as the next guy but you gotta seek in order to find. |
Note that modern jazz...whatever it is...is relatively unpopular and always has been, and it's 95% of what I listen to. It rates just below children's music and maybe above polka. Luckily I have managed to find a LOT of "newer" stuff that is astonishing, from Vijay Iyer and Bill Frisell to Ingrid Laubrock and too many others to even try to mention. I refuse to listen to polka...I just do... |
Here's music that I have on my playlist and in the car; it never gets old, maybe that's because it's the "undisputed" high priest of modern jazz; Charles "Yardbird" Parker, his "Bird With Strings" never gets old. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP7E0K4IMqo |
Whoopycat, while I'm in the other camp, I've ordered the British Afro Jazz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz9iPxElk0k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzZUJ8oxgxw |
I think we be there.*****BS*****-- Mahgister P.S. my post is only about the conscious realization that a post consisting only in these 2 words "BS" is "non sense"... Then i apologize to all for being non sensical in my answering post.... I apologize to ROK also, i just realized that with this stupid post consisting of this 2 letters only , he is right, and i am wrong, we are there, like he said... :) « Stupidity is contagious»- Groucho Marx « Is it only a mass phenomena?»- Harpo Marx « The disease must come from someone»-Chico Marx «Nevermind if we all suffer» -Groucho Marx |
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An important part of being a good listener is having a little humility about it all. We may not like it, but this doesn’t necessarily mean it is no good. Hey frogman, Take your own advice and learn a little humility. I did not dismiss all contemporary jazz as no good or just skronking and bashing. I did note that the trend in contemporary jazz is for more skronking and bashing and asked a question to try and understand this trend. Please read my post again and apologize, if you have the humility and integrity required to do so. My guess is that you have neither. |
There is so much good new jazz out there that it's impossible to keep up with it all, esp. with Tidal at one's fingertips. I'm enjoying Yazz Ahmed's latest, she can play the trumpet, and Thana Alexa's "Ona" is interesting too. The rhythm section is excellent. Fabian Almazan is one of my favorite musicians on the scene. His music is both beautiful (romantic really) and original. His wife Linda May Han Oh is putting out some serious music as well. Will Vinson's "four forty one" features some fine playing. Everything he plays make sense, is a statement. Plus the album features a who's who of current jazz heavies. Brilliant musicians like Coltrane and Miles never let their music ossify. Their tastes were ever changing. We would do well to attempt to do the same. |
Tomcy6, you’re right and I apologize. You did not say that all contemporary Jazz is skronking and bashing. You were referring to a trend as perceived by you. I get it. Sorry. Having said that I still disagree about there being a trend in that direction. There is no question that Jazz has turned toward the atonal and rhythmically obtuse. Liking or appreciating that trend is a personal sensibility and not an indication of a trend that is negative for every listener. That was the point that I was making and I should not have directed my comment directly at you and I removed the post. |
