My vote goes to dry, or at least dry'ish and lacking in that last touch of "realness," which better amplifiers are able to convey. For subs and general listening Class D is great, but when compared to better Class A or Class AB amplifiers the NC1200 Ncore amplifiers that I owned (Acoustic Imagery Atsah monos) fell short. This quote from a review of the Mola Mola Kaluga in Mono & Stereo comes as close as any to what I heard from the NC1200 monoblocks:
"All notes were there but the illusion of musicians standing in front of me wasn`t convincing at all. The music didn`t sound inviting and involving, it was just… there. The emotional content was missing and the tonal colours were somewhat bleached.
For lovers of analog reproduction and concert goers the sound could also be quite fatiguing and plain boring."
Bondmanp wrote: "My back and I love our Class D Arion Audio S-500 amp."
(Sorry, I haven't mastered the art of quoting on this forum.)
I love bondmanp's remark, because it sums up how everything is a trade-off. I have a Yamaha AS-501 integrated, in large measure because it's about 25 pounds and that's my upper limit. But I'd love more power! And Class D seems the only way for me to get that without injury. Is it everything sonically a powerful A/AB amp would be? Maybe, maybe not. But the powerful A/AB amp is not an option. I am more and more intrigued by the world of Class D.
@chronicle... I went from a trouble-plagued but highly regarded class a/b amp that weighed 64 lbs and was rated at 150 watts/channel to my Arion, rated at 500 watts/channel. In my case, this was no compromise for lighter weight. Dynamics, soundstage and especially neutrality all improved significantly. Best of all, a lower-treble/upper-midrange peak that could get nasty disappeared. For years, I thought it was from my room or my loudspeakers. But it was my "liquid sounding" Class A/B amp all along. I have been digging my system with the Class D Arion amp for over a year now. Absolutely love it. I am fairly sure I could not beat it for the money.
@bondmanp Are you using the Arion S-500 or the HS-500? I went to their website and can't see the difference in specs between them. Also, what kind of pre-amp are you pairing with them?
Will search for a close dealer, I love auditioning audio gear. Bring in my own music, etc, and press play, sit back and sip my flask while listening. I will be looking for a dealer!,!
My Marantz PM10 sounds pretty good compared to the Luxman I had before. The Luxman was a bit warmer, but the Marantz has a more powerful bass, bigger, deeper soundstage, more revealing.
If you like the M1200s (and can afford $6K), Ric (EVS) says he can mod them up for you, but if you don't need big power Underwood HiFi might actually be FINALLY introducing the Voyager GaN amp or ...
FYI the have a 15 day return policy but buyer pays shipping both ways, which, due to size and weight is minimal
I've owned in the past a large number of major name-brand top Class AB solid state amps and have heard and love many others as well as many great tube amps and Class A solid state. All the AB that I owned were big, expensive, heavy, wonderful sounding and I was one of those hardcore solid-state amp guys that swore I would never have digital amps of any kind.
Well they've come a long way and my speakers are highly powered internally for mid-bass, bass and sub-bass by some great next generation Class D amps.
Furthermore, I've owned a Legacy i.V4 ULTRA amp since May of 2020 and am still shocked at how damned good it is and how those 100, 200+ amps costing many tens of thousands of dollars are no longer in my system as I'm really impressed by the power, dynamics, finesse, musicality and all other aspects of this next generation digital amp.
Very impressive amp regardless of what type of amplification it is.
Unless the amp has built-in DSP like many Pro Audio amps do, Class D amps aren't really digital. The power supply is sometimes referred to as digital as it comes from computer high speed switching power supply technology.
(correction to earlier post as it is no longer editable)
should say 100, 200+ pound amps.... I've corrected it here:
I've owned in the past a large number of major name-brand top Class AB solid state amps and have heard and love many others as well as many great tube amps and Class A solid state. All the AB that I owned were big, expensive, heavy, wonderful sounding and I was one of those hardcore solid-state amp guys that swore I would never have digital amps of any kind.
Well they've come a long way and my speakers are highly powered internally for mid-bass, bass and sub-bass by some great next generation Class D amps.
Furthermore, I've owned a Legacy i.V4 ULTRA amp since May of 2020 and am still shocked at how damned good it is and how those 100+, 200+ pound (weight) amps costing many tens of thousands of dollars are no longer in my system as I'm really impressed by the power, dynamics, finesse, musicality and all other aspects of this next generation digital amp.
Very impressive amp regardless of what type of amplification it is.
Zephyr My Legacy IV-2 for my mains, and IV-5 for my surrounds was the best choice I have made in the last decade. I just ordered two Foundation subs to finish out my project. I’m replacing two 18 inch PSA’s and wondering if the ice amps in them has improved also? I did not order the Ultra’s. What exactly is the deal with them?
@nitrobob Congratulations on what sounds like a great system! I had Caliber XDs stacked on 2 Foundation subs driven by Wavelet before I went up to Valor and the results were both earth-shattering and musically fantastic. The subs require good break-in to sound their best, 250+ hours and they are even tighter, more impactful, graceful and musical then straight OOTB.
As I understand it, the i.V2 may be at Ultra build level by its design (check with Legacy).
For the other Ultra models, instead of using one 1200AS2 stereo board as I understand it to drive 2 channels (so 2 boards in a 4ch, 3 in a 6ch and 4 in an 8ch), the Ultra doubles down and uses an entire 1200AS2 board to drive a single channel. The results are noticeable for 2, 3 and 4 ch listening, dynamics, etc. I'm a customer and have learned as I proceeded up the line so please check with Legacy for all details.
Zephyr Thanks, I was thinking it was a hopped up version. I believe your right on the IV-2, as my dealer said one of the benefits of going IV-2 and IV-5 instead of sending my V-5 back in to be upgraded to a V-7 would be the extra 400 watts to my Focus’s. (600 up to 1000 each). Jealous of your Valors.
LOL .. BTW I don't know what your using in the back but the Phantom HD's was quite a surprise.. I strongly suggest them. And thanks for the heads up on the break in ..
Class D sounds dry and lifeless... thats all, carry on
The one I'm playing sounds neutral, smooth and relaxed, very transparent without any dryness at all.
Class D amps vary in sound in much the same way that tube amps do (SET vs push-pull vs OTL and so on...). To assume they all sound the same is really ridiculous. But to be clear, some (especially older designs) do sound dry; it was years before I could take class D seriously.
@nitrobob Thanks,....I used to have a very large, complex, costly and (I thought) great-sounding/viewing 7.1 HT and 2-ch hybrid system up until late 2008-2009. I missed 2-ch music whenever I was immersed in a movie and also was tired of chasing the ever-evolving standards in multi-channel audio and home theater decoding standards, pre-processing, post-processing, video standards and all they bring along, etc...so I've stuck to 2-channel fully since 2009. I did love the sport of home theater so to speak however my listening and system building has given me much more happiness ever since choosing only 1 addiction to chase :-)
You are soo, right. It never ends. But I’m hooked. Movies are my wife’s deal, but the video concerts, as long as there in 5.1 Dolby or better and recorded in the early 2000’s (or newer), are better than being there. Seriously.... I have yet to have anyone over to watch one of these things that don’t look at you after that first song in utter disbelief. I've had a few over that had absolutely no intentions of listening to anymore than just a sample, only to be glued to there listening position for the entire rest of the concert... THAT...makes it all worthwhile.. That’s why I can say I USE these amplifiers. They don’t sit there for their looks, or at an idle,,,
@chronicle.. I have the S-500, a single chassis stereo amp. The other amps are a mono block and a mono block with a tube input stage. I have heard the mono blocks with the tube input stage, and they did sound warmer and smoother, but the system context was completely different. You might be able to get a home trial of this amp. Mike Kalellis designed and builds them. He is very talented, and a heck of a nice guy. Call and speak with him.
@chronicle... Sorry, my preamp is a Mcintosh C220 tube hybrid. Note that the mains are crossed over to a pair of subwoofers, first order, beginning at 80Hz, so the amp sees attenuated levels in the bottom two octaves. Lots of headroom.
There is a pair of Ohm Walsh 2000s for sale at the music room for a good price. Don’t see those around very often. Perfect match for a nice Class D amp.
It depends. I've experienced quite a few tube and solid state A/AB class amps which were boring or plain unlustenable. I use class D NAD C688 integrated for my patio B&W AM-1 speakers and the sound is decent enough for me to live with this amp as base of the bedroom system. In contest - my primary system is mostly McIntosh (C1100 pre, MC452 power amp, SME 20/3 turntable, Manley Steelhead phono, and Sonus Faber Guarneri EVO speakers). Week ago got a chance to try class D AMPED America power amp 2400. Contrary to expectations (if any), this power amp held it's own against McIntosh MC402 and MC452 amps. I didn't find it dry, unnatural or uninvolving. The sound was clean, detailed, dynamic and on the neutral side of things. Price wise - substantially less than my lovely Macs.
Class D, good for powered subs and car stereo amps, and that’s about it. All my opinion. No class D in my house, except my powered tannoy sub in my dedicated home theater set up. Hifi run by class A.
@mapman As you know, I own the Ohm Walsh 2000s for 11 years now. A great match with my class D amp, and a great value, IMHO, at full retail. Used and fully broken in makes them a no brainer, IMO.
Class D, good for powered subs and car stereo amps, and that’s about it. All my opinion.
I agree that a good number of older class D amps were not all that musical. I heard some early examples that I would have thought were a joke were it not for the price.
Class A relies on the bias setting and operating point of the output devices such that you get the maximum linearity out of them. This is important to keep distortion down and for getting a nice first watt.
The advantage of a class D amplifier is that controlling distortion isn't based on the output section. This is a tremendous advantage. At this point its more about how linear the encoding system is.
In a class A circuit, the linearity is important because in most cases, the amount of feedback that can be applied to the circuit is often limited by frequency poles (like coupling capacitors; in engineering terms, this idea is called 'phase margin'), which if exceeded, will cause the amplifier to oscillate. The other problem is that the application of feedback causes distortion which manifests as IMD and higher ordered harmonics through a process called 'bifurcation'. The ear interprets this as harshness and brightness, as it assigns a tonality to all forms of distortion. The ear is also particularly sensitive to the higher ordered harmonics as it uses them to sense sound pressure.
These aspects of using feedback have been known for a long time- Norman Crowhurst wrote about them in the late 1950s. Now you can get around the distortion problem by running enough feedback, but in most class A amplifiers this isn't practical since the amp will probably go into oscillation; you need in excess of 35dB for the amp to clean up the distortion caused by feedback.
Class D amps have a means to get around this problem. You can run 35dB or more of feedback with the expectation that the amp will oscillate- in fact its encouraged. The oscillation is used as the switching frequency, resulting in a fairly simple circuit that has low distortion and lacking the higher ordered harmonics that causes harshness in so many amps.
seems to me that since class d is newer tech with new possibilities for good sounding cost effective builds and a lot of active innovation in the amp modules, there are many new efforts to make good sounding amps using these modules
as in any case with emerging/new-ish technologies, you have older aficianados who will poo-poo it, having been burned before or having experienced poor sound from earlier cruder versions... so while they may indeed have had these experiences, and they are not wrong, their experiences are increasingly out of date, and don’t fairly reflect on what is being accomplished presently by innovative folks working with the latest versions of these
I have a gut feeling @atmasphere would not be soon marketing a Class D amp if the technology was somehow not up to snuff. Nor would Bel Canto which took the plunge and helped lead the charge a number of years back.
My ears tell me the technology is 100% up to snuff and a threatening challenger to the high end status quo moving forward as a result of not just sound quality but TCO, versatility, and overall ease of use. That might account for at least some of he hostility towards Class D commonly encountered here.
I just ignore it because I have owned good quality Bel Canto Class D amps for a number of years now and know better every time I listen which is pretty much every day. I decided to try the latest and greatest new technology on the block that seemed to fit my needs on paper first and managed to stay clear of much old tube technology in my system as a result. Have goals to eliminate tubes altogether perhaps someday soon. I have to pull myself away from listening usually especially when listening to the Ohms, so that is the ultimate good sign and all that matters.
Of course as always YMMV. Different strokes and all that will never change.
To denigrate all class d amplifiers like the OP shows utter shallow thought and serious bias. To the OP: there are myriad different amplifier designs that fall under class d. So the class d categorization is so generic as to me virtually meaningless.
Do yourself a favor and listen to different amplifiers without foreknowledge of what class or design they are. Stop letting your preconceived notions about how a particular amplifier should sound based on its design dictate your preferences.
Anyone who believes that a well designed, built and sufficiently powered amplifier from 20-30 years ago automatically sounds inferior to a modern one is deluding himself. Any differences between quality amplifiers regardless of class are infinitesimal compared to the influences of the room acoustics, the loudspeaker and ones hearing on this particular day.
I am an ex classical musician and my sound reference is decades of live acoustic music. To my ears, my (ancient) W4S STP-SE and ST1000 driving my Walsh 5000s sound wonderful and have done so for 10 years. If the ST1000s are slightly better that my Sumo, Rotel and B&k amps it is primarily because they have greater dynamic power and much much lower noise. The fact is these are all excellent amplifiers. Modern designs seeking to reduce distortion and phase errors from inaudible to more inaudible are not going to sound objectivity better. It is better to focus on efficiency and reliability which class d addresses directly. You are best served by focusing resources on room treatments, placement and choosing loudspeakers that have less reactive demanding loads and superior drivers and materials.
I’d have to hear @b_limo ’s Fritz monitors on good Class D versus others to know which I would prefer with those specifically in that they are advertised to be a most easy load to drive (though not at all particularly efficient) and in my only listen I’ve heard them in fact sound wonderful off a flea powered tube headphone amp at a show. So they are somewhat unique and special in the sense that most any amplifier has a chance to sound good with them. Which sounds best may still well be a totally subjective call by each depending, but they definitely make life relatively easy for most any amp compared to most speakers out there these days.
@mamboni the larger Ohms like ours with large 12" Walsh style drivers in particular are definitely a unique beast as well. Not a horrible load by any stretch from what I have read and not efficient enough that I would try to run them off a flea powered tube headphone amp (though teh results might be interesting) but in my experience very responsive to different amps and gear in general upstream and I have found they tend to like lots of power and current to open up fully and benefit from corresponding higher damping factors like those found with most Class D amps.
I’ll skip the D-bate on this... currently auditioning a PS Audio Stellar S300 which uses the usual suspects of Ice modules. That’s where it stops. The bout stage is a proprietary MOSFET which sounds pretty good. The excellent staff at PS say that about 300 hours is optimal burn-in, but this can be done with no speakers connected, so is purely for the input/driver stage. I’m playing all my favorite stuff and watching and waiting for either the amp to thermally warm up (they don’t), or to pop a speaker - which would be a good excuse to fed new ones. I’ve had a Parasound Halo A23+ on order for awhile...
I don't think so. You should get to hear a pair of Nuforce Ref 9 V3 SE mono amps with TDSS level 3 upgrades--primarily to the power supply. These amps are potent, detailed, much more live, and with killer bass and I've heard them with a variety of speakers. All of which benefitted at using the Ref 9's.
I'm currently trialing a D-Sonic M3a-1200S, which is a Class D amp with a Pascal X-Pro module. I'm liking what I hear so far and my maggies are loving the power they are being fed. I had been using an Akitika GT-102 Z4, which will probably be relegated to my office system.
+1 dorkwad I had the V2 SE's, but the 2 Ohm Thiel speakers they powered needed still more juice. Recently changed to a VTV Pascal L-Pro2S amp. Now more controlled and a feeling of effortlessness, more detail as well, but not quite the same warmth as the NuForce. Still a long way from "dry and lifeless" though.
I recently auditioned a 100wpc Rotel integrated amp, with a Rotel CD player, with some $10,000 speakers that are a much newer version, but one model down from my own. By its size, the amp must have been a Class D. It also sounded very electronic, very much like my Crown IC 150, as far as I can remember back that far. If this represents Class D sound, I would not be a customer for it. Even the sales person finally admitted that it was not really expected to be used for long term listening. Is Rotel actually Class D now?
It's ridiculous to lump class D amps together as having a particular sound. It's just as nuts as lumping together all class A/B amps, or tube amps together. The variety of amplification outcomes in each type of amp is so varied that I challenge anyone to be able to reliably say which type is playing in a blind test. There are dry-sounding tube amps, wet sounding class D, neutral sounding variants in each class. This is a tired subject, which doesn't merit further examination. I would rather be listening to my music....and I don't care which amp is hooked up...
I was reading a readers comment thread on an article about the Covid virus origins in China. One reader was mouthing off about how we need to go to war against China for allowing the virus out of their labs. Well first of all, we don't know exactly where this thing came from and secondly, I asked this commenter if he has ever worn a military branch uniform and if he has any experience with wars? I never got a reply back; my guess is that this guy has not put his money where his mouth is and therefore he should refrain from suggestions of bombing another country unless he fully understands the consequences of that. I will use this above analogy in terms of Class D amps: unless you have experience with some really good Class D amps, don't tell us about how bad they are. There are some really crappy Class D amps out there, I have heard them, but they also do not cost much money to buy and therefore most likely have not had a lot of good engineering design going into them. I currently own a pair of Anthem M1 Class D mono block amps and I can assure you that these extremely well engineered amps, not using any ICE type modules, but rather Anthem proprietary liquid cooled output designed sections amazes me in how good it sounds. I also have a very well regarded Class A/Ab amp and the Anthem Class D amp blows it out of the water in all aspects, hand down. My monster A/Ab amp sucks down a lot of electricity, makes a ton of heat and runs out of headroom under heavy loading. My Anthem Class D's make almost no heat, use very little power when not being asked to and have immense headroom with 2000 watts per channel at 4 ohms nominal. They exhibit almost no distortion and have silky smooth audio ranges. There is virtually no upper frequency harshness as I have heard in the lower priced Class D type amps using the ICE modules. I can listen to the Anthems for hours on end with nothing but smooth sound and immense output.
I converted my classic speakers over time to active speakers being run by four (4) Crown 1502 Class D amps . . . and they are far from dry, lifeless, or warmth. This is all subjective . . . and arguing is purely a waste of time. We like what we like, and if you don't . . . DO NOT BUY IT! To argue to become King of the Mountain and win -- WHAT goes beyond my rationale, because I have had people over to listen . . . and what I get from them is the live presence, the detail, and the lack of distortion -- not to mention the sound staging and the lack of fatigue in listening at any level. I did spend time in revamping my system and choosing new drivers to upgrade the speakers . . . it is all purely subjective, but people have respected my accuracy of hearing and good taste in adjusting my sound to what I would consider “close to live”.
I had B&K Momonblock amps . . . and they were no match for what I have now because I have complete control over everything with regard to tweeking and refining my sound . . . and since I paid for it and it is my ears and listening satisfaction that matter to me, I may ask for a critique, but bottom line . . . I listen to it and it is me who has to be satisfied with my sound . . . not professional reviewers, nor outside know it alls . . . people have got to learn to think, listen, and respond as an individual and stop this SINGULARITY mentality . . . or be divided to the point of blows just to make a point -- opinions are just that . . . and everyone is entitled -- despite the current trends. I would suggest a THICKER SKIN!
You can’t cheap out on your amplifier. You just can’t do it. Class D is an audio company attempting to sell product that’s nearly all profit. Class A. Now that’s an amplifier. If it doesn’t heat you out of your room it’s not worth your time.
AGD Audion is the best amp, regardless of class or price, I have ever heard. Class D using a patented galium nitride module that, unlike other GAN based amps, uses a module designed specifically for audio. All others use GAN used in lidar or battery chargers. Hearing detail, attack and decay produces a sound in which I hear, for the first time, musician’s phrasing. The most subtle and most profound. Music is composed of phrases tied together. The way in which singers and instrumentalists beginning and end of a phrase and the nuances of inflection give a humanity to the sound before unheard. The result is that the AGDs make even old, poor, scratchy LPs great. So many albums that I just didn’t want to listen I now look forward to. Because of AGD Audions, my listening experience has literally transformed. Now listening to Louis and Ella is revelatory. All the little things that Louis does with his voice. And I always liked Ella. But now I clearly hear why she was so great.
You can’t cheap out on your amplifier. You just can’t do it. Class D is
an audio company attempting to sell product that’s nearly all profit.
Class A. Now that’s an amplifier. If it doesn’t heat you out of your
room it’s not worth your time.
Although we've been building class A amplifiers for the last 46 years, this statement is clearly false. Its worth your time if it sounds right, not on how hot it does or does not get.
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