Is D for Dry? Class D...

Using tube gear is like using a distortion pedal in an electric guitar setup. They make tons of cool effects to choose from, and they’re all useful in creating music and new sounds. But they have zero relation to accurate reproduction of a source signal. Thinking otherwise is mental masturbation.

@dougeyjones Spoken like a true neophyte. Get out and listen to some good tube gear in a tube friendly system. Your portrayal couldn't be further from the truth.

I've got no dog in the fight when it comes to Class D, so I'm not going to bash something I have no experience with, nor do I care to have any experience with Class D. But don't paint with such a broad brush about a technology that is arguably for many the most engaging means of reproducing music. You don't like it? Fine. But let's keep things in perspective, shall we?

Oz

mglik

Good to hear that you have experienced what i have with the AGD Audions. Regardless of class they are some of the best amps i have heard period. Have have just sold my Pass XA25 and Wavac 300B there was no point in keeping them, the AGD`s do what they could do and more.

I think there is significance in Alberto of AGD being Italian. He surely has special sensibilities regarding a highly attuned musicality.
This is reflected in his creations. I have always respected the Italian perspective on art and music... and food! 

I think there is significance in Alberto of AGD being Italian. He surely has special sensibilities regarding a highly attuned musicality.

From what I've seen, its more about how little distortion the amp makes.

audition the adg amps and you will be enlightened

@ozzy62 

The fact that you’re calling me out for lack of perspective, when I literally just posted facts means that you don’t understand the technology you’re discussing. 

Tubes are famous for 2nd order harmonic distortion, it’s literally what tube lovers like about the sound. I’ve heard plenty of great sounding tube systems, but I have no illusions with regards to what’s behind the “magic”. People who love the many and varied sound signatures tubes offer should just own up to it, rather than stomping their feet like children and contending that it’s everyone else who doesn’t know what good sound is. 

There’s a reason basically no music is mastered using tube equipment, there’d be no way to ensure a consistent experience across platforms. 

Just like Class A or Class AB, some sound fabulous and some sound mediocre at best, same applies to Class D. The one thing I like about Class D amps they are very sensitive to slightest cable changes (poer and signal and that could be compared to the difference tube rolling makes for tube amps. Also Class D amps will not dress up a poor recording but get a good recording going on, you will be in for a treat.

They say that transistors are meant to be switched and when they are not, they protest by giving off a lot of heat. It still blows my mind when I look inside a Class D amp and view the lack of large heatsinks, transformers, large caps yet they sound so dynamic. The background is very black (quiet). Don't get me wrong I still enjoy the hell out of my Class A/B amp and I'm in no hurry to part ways. There is no reason why you can't own both and switch things out when you get bored.

@dougeyjones 

Your system profile says more than your posts. I'd say you are very inexperienced from your posting history. It's ok, no need to be ashamed, you too can learn.

As for not mastering with tubes, I guess you don't listen to any of the 60s Jazz iconic recordings? Just more evidence of a novice. Keep at it, we all started somewhere........

Doug Sax mastered with all tube boards.
His work spoke for that.

zephyr24069,
How do you describe the tonality of your Legacy IV4 Ultra?  I want neutrality and HF extension, and no euphonic warmth.  Ric of tweak audio.com describes the Rouge Audio N-10DM as similar to the Legacy IV series.  I emailed Francesco of Rouge who describes the IceEdge 1200 modules as more neutral than Hypex modules, with the aptly named Studio N-10DM as representing studio monitor type of sound.  I own the Mytek Brooklyn Amp which uses a modified Pascal module.  It is neutral with good HF detail.

Thanks for your impressions.

@viber6   WIth the large driver area and sheer scale and abilities of the Legacy Valors and the Elrod speaker and interconnects that I utilize, I tend to hear in vivid detail whether an amp or source or source material is too much "this" or "too little that" in undeniable terms.  This combination alone with the Valors in showing me recordings I know intimately in new and very detailed ways.  

That stated, if the iV.4 Ultra with its ICEedge boards were conveying euphonic warmth or anything else out I would hear it; of that I'm virtually 100% certain. I've always sought amps that are extremely neutral and to the greatest extent possible, inject no sonic signature of their own on incoming waveform and only amplify the waveform.  Edge NL12.1s and NL Ref amps many years ago did that in my systems and to an extent so did their Maker Audio NL14 brethren.  The Esoteric Grandioso M1 monoblocks also to my ears fall into the category of amplification that I seek though I've not been fortunate enough to own them or their probable M1X successors (yet).  The one exception I've owned might have been the Esoteric A-02 stereo amp that was warmer by a small amount and had a certain lushness to everything that it did however I would labels it's sound when amplifying various speakers I've owned included Legacy's but also a pair of TAD R1 Mk2s and rich/lush not overly warm.  

I've heard other great SS amps (both Class A and AB) that do what I'm after however this is a very short and very expensive and backbreaking list (weight, size, etc...)

All that to pave the way toward saying the surprise with the i.V4 Ultra, at least here in my system cabled and powered the way I have it, is that the goals above are very much intact and the i.V4 Ultra delivers.  Some days I look at the amp and cannot believe I found all that in a digital amp that weighs and cost far less than many contenders in other power/design classes.

It has excellent HF extension and rendering of those frequencies, transients, air, etc....what it sends to the 14" midrange on the Valors comes out detailed, rich, withOUT being bloated, overly emphasized mids, is lifelike and tonally accurate with great depth.  It's hass is taut, extremely fast, accurate, impactful, all without being lean, again,...tonal accuracy is extremely accurate.    Euphorically warm...."no" for sure.  

I have what I would consider and others tell me is a bit of an insane and extensive CD, XRCD (various types) and SACD collection. There are many 'crucible recordings' that I both love and know incredibly well; since getting these speakers and amp I've spent months learning new details that have not come out of these discs and what I'm hearing uniformly across the board tells me this amp (and speakers) are a winning combination.  They got installed a few weeks after hearing everything I ever wanted to compare them to at High End 2019 and Hifideluxe 2019...

Am I delighted this doesn't kill the wallet or the back? Sure am however I am making every effort to be objective.  Is it perfect? No...not perfect but it's excellent to my listening preferences. 

Have I heard equal and better sound quality both in digital as well as Class A or AB. Definitely yes....

Sound quality with this much raw power unleashed without grain or grunge sounding extremely non-digital amp-like? Only in A or AB costing $50K-$100K and more, that neither my wallet or my back can take for the foreseeable future.

From what you and others write there are other amps out there I'd also like to hear in this newly improved genre.  Someone mentioned the AGD monoblocks on this or the other digital thread that's hopping recently;  the AGDs sound amazing as did the Merrill Element 118 monos and a few others I heard in Munich and elsewhere,...I am sure the list will only keep growing.

Hope this helps...

I started this thread late one night after a few crowns... totally forgot about it.

I’ve since moved from a gorgeous sounding Belles Aria Integrated to an older Raven Blackhawk.  I was concerned about moving from the Belles to another class A/B because I felt like I’d gain power but lose quality and I wasn’t about that.

Well the move to the Raven did it for me.  If possible, I may never return to solid state aftrr hearing a good tube amp with some pretty decent tubes.

Rolling tubes is sooo fun and tube amps with their warm up / not leaving them on all the time, makes listening more of an intentional, ritualistic experience.

I think Im getting a turntable very soon.

Congratulations on the Raven,....Dave and the crew at Raven Audio build some amazing amps. I've lusted after the Shaman Mk2 monoblocks more than once (and the Silhouette Mk2s). They make great sounding gear that gives the best of tubes,....

zephyr24069,
Thanks for sharing your experience.  I am about to order the Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM which is very similar to your Legacy IV, according to ricevs.  Look at his site, tweakaudio.com, with its link to Rouge.  Due to break in, I might even order a second unit, so I can compare to Ric's mods which he claims improve stock amps.  Cost for the stock N-10DM only $1550.  With Ric's mod, $2100.  Pretty cheap interesting R&D for $3650 total.  Poster tweak1 has Ric's EVS1200 which beats all amps he has had.  Too bad his EVS1200 thread was deleted.

I suspect Ric is being modest in saying that the EVS1200 or other IceEdge 1200 models are merely excellent FOR THE MONEY.  I had the Merrill Veritas and Element 114.  They were warmer and tubelike compared to my Mytek Brooklyn Amp.  They certainly would be preferred by certain listeners, but for crisp neutrality I look elsewhere.  I asked Ric to name one amp at any price that he has personally A/B'ed to be better in clarity than these IceEdge amps, and so far no word.  I offer you the same challenge.

Even Mike Fremer in his PS Audio M1200 (another IceEdge 1200) review noted that its bass was as tight and accurate as anything he has heard.  He also said the HF were similarly detailed.  My belief is that electrons don't have preferences, so if bass is tight/accurate then the rest of the range--the harmonic overtones--will be likewise.  Many people like tight bass, but then some of them complain that accurate midrange/HF sounds wiry, sterile, dry, etc.  They don't realize that live, unamplified instruments sound that way, but they are used to most speakers which are dull in comparison.  It depends on perspective.  If they think speakers are correct, then yes, live/unamped instruments and voices ARE dry and sterile.  But if your frame of reference is live/unamped instruments and voices, then nearly all audio systems are dull and excessively warm/bloated.

Unfortunately, the high end audio business caters to the misconceptions of audiophiles who think that big money buys great sound.  They spend more time at audio shows and dealers than experiencing live performances anywhere--large or small concert halls, outdoors on the street.  Great times for those like we who know about great class D, and IceEdge 1200 in particular.  

Hi @edgewound 

Thanks for your reply.
I mean Class D is much cheaper to build, particularly for big power outputs.  So Class D manufacturers put them out at a third of the price or less of Class AB and a small fraction of Class A.
Class D is therefore a shortcut to big power but not to good sound.
There is more to designing an amp than big power.

Wise people speak of 'something' and 'nothing'.

First, the price for quality class D (or all things, including food) is much higher due to world-wide money inflation: thank you world monetary 'leaders'= banksters. Now...
I am one of the very lucky few to have made the leap of faith roughly 2 years ago, that ric had so improved the stock IcePower 1200 modules with his amazing circuit and parts knowledge when he came out with his EVS 1200, but the amp alone may not bring happiness. Case in point...
Prior to purchasing the EVS 1200 I upgraded my Oppo 105 with a Linear Power Module + replaced the OEM IEC with a rhodium IEC that has a stiff heavy gauge silver tail attached to the LPM and a silver jumper bypassing the 110/220 power switch (all from ebay). Easy peasy DIY. Huge improvement for~ $400

I was/am using a Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS -5 (outboard power supply). The IC from 105 to DDP-1 is a WireWorld series 7 XLR (my system is 100% diff balanced). As much as I rave/d about the EVS 1200, the sound I was hearing was a bit hot and the sound stage was not as big as I thought it should be, but I put up with it thinking it was the dac in the DDP-1, which I was/am not in a position to replace. Anyway...

Some 9 months ago I compared my Wire World optical cable (MSRP $165) to a uber expensive optical cable that I borrowed, which was/is glorious. Why, was well beyond what I could comprehend, but after a few months I had to return it. What I failed to do was reconnect my WW optical cable, and so was not listening to the DDP-1 dac, instead all the redbook music was playing via the stock internal 105 dac.

About a month ago I realized the optional DDP-1 filters were not engaging on my remote. WTH? So... I reconnected the WW optical cable and all my redbook CDs took on a much wanted roundness (bass was improved), plus a very deep and wide 3D sound stage. After a few minutes I decided to replace an old  Modwright(?) multi-stranded, unjacketed PC with my WW Eclipse power cord. That, too was not subtle, a huge improvement over the Modwright.

Moral of the story (for me at least) was: cables I had on hand took my EVS 1200 to an even higher level than I thought
hth

Thanks tweak1 for your informative post.  You prefer a little roundness in sound obtained from the WW optical cable.  With the other cable, you described the EVS1200 as sounding "a bit hot" which is music to my ears.  If its soundstage was not as big, that is expected from an accurate amp which focuses the instruments to sound thinner or more pinpoint.  The opposite of this effect is most pronounced in euphonic tube amps which bloat all the sound, making images larger on a bloated soundstage.  More subtlely, euphonic SS amps or other components inflate images slightly with the overlay of fuzzy warmth not present in the natural unamplified instruments.

Ric now writes that the Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM with his mods will yield the same sound as his original EVS1200, for roughly the same money, $2100, without the euphonic tube stage of the already excellent PS Audio M1200.  Fabulous.

@viber6 Thanks pointer to Ric's site. A couple of links on it are non-functioning (including the link to the info where he actually talks about what he mods on the 1200 modules) however, I was able to follow the link to the page about the Rouge amps.  Beyond binding post and one other mod there isn't much info there but honestly was not expecting a full core dump on all his "secret sauce" so to speak.

in a couple years when my warranty runs on out this newer amp I might try these mods as they are at the time however, I'd void warranty between now and then so it'll have to wait.

To a couple of other posts on this thread my reference is both great recorded music in a large number or genres out of an extensive collection as well as a lifetime of chasing live music from the player(s) on the streets here and various places I've traveled to jazz and other live clubs around the world, concert halls, cathedrals, etc....my passion is music of all kinds and I find it live whenever I can.

"I asked Ric to name one amp at any price that he has personally A/B'ed to be better in clarity than these IceEdge amps, and so far no word.  I offer you the same challenge."

Well I won't be going out to buy amps just to A/B against what I have today; not practical or feasible and frankly a waste of money.  If someone wants to send them, I'll be happy to test side by side :-). 

All kidding aside, I can think of many reasons why Ric or someone in his position would not answer with 1 or more amps on that list.  For myself, in recent years, the only amp I remember having this clarity, musical versatility, beauty and realism while not over-emphasizing, saturating and/or 'warming' any one frequency band are the Esoteric Grandioso M1 monoblocks that I've heard multiple times over recent years however, that is not an A/B.

There’s a reason basically no music is mastered using tube equipment, there’d be no way to ensure a consistent experience across platforms.

This statement is false. Pick up a copy of Tape Op magazine. Tube mics, tube mic preamps, tube compressors and as pointed out, some are using tube amps for LP mastering.

I’d tapped out a couple of replies when this was current the other day, only to see that id been banned temporarily and my posts removed.

I don’t see much point in interacting in this kind of debate if the mods are going to delete/ban people for having a different opinion.

zephyr24069,
Thanks for being totally honest.  My audio experience started as a child 66 years ago as a 2 year old child.  The classical music radio station was playing all the time.  Audio was my first understood language, since I said my first English words at age 3.  I started the violin in school at age 9, although as an amateur I didn't make my debut until age 40, playing solo in the Mendelssohn violin concerto.  My audiophile life started when I was 25, so my audio qualifications are based on many years of familiarity with live sound.  I dabbled in recording, experimenting with various top condenser mikes.  Like you, I learn much from random audio experiences anywhere.  Although my expertise is classical music, one of the best live experiences I had was in the summer of 2005 in New Orleans just before Katrina at the Preservation Hall.  A small unamped jazz band with piano played in a small cave of a room with 3 rows of audience benches.  The sound cracked and snapped excitement. On vacations, I enjoy street performers and the bells of street cars.  Anyone who says that they want to smooth out the sharp, brilliant natural sounds of reality is missing the boat and defiling the concept of high fidelity.

You are smart to enjoy your stock Legacy IV as it is.  It is possible it is better than the stock Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM because of more refined parts, etc.  Possibly the most important mod that Ric does is increase the input impedance from 38K ohms to 150K ohms.  I am not a circuit engineer, but I would make an analogy that just as with moving coil cartridges, 47K ohms reveals more HF than loading down a cartridge way below at 100-1000 ohms.  Advocates of loading down the cartridge say that many MC cartridges have HF ringing, so the ringing is reduced by loading down.  All I know is that in my experience using various MC cartridges with various phono preamps, I hate the rolled off duller sound when the loading down is used.  Ric specifically states that increasing the input impedance to 150K ohms sounds "way better."

Agree--don't break your back and bank account by trying to find a heavy expensive amp that is better than the Legacy IV.

@atmasphere 

Tube mics and mic pre amps falls under my original statement, which is that tubes are great as creative devices, in the creation process. Accurate reproduction, sans 2nd order harmonics and erroneous noise, not as much. 

I have owned a Mac MC275 and a Mac C20.  Both refurbished. Nice, transparent and warm...  Years later I discovered a NuPrime ST-10.  It matched the warmth and transparency in its own way, but controls the bass near perfect. The tubes can not match the accuracy, nor bass control  I can not speak for all D amps.

dougeyjones,
Around 1995, I experimented with various mike preamps using a few SS condenser mikes.  I made a 1 min recording of my violin part in the opening of the Mendelssohn violin concerto for each combination.  I tried to standardize my playing of each take, although of course I can't be sure each take was identical in my playing.  The famed B&K 4011 cardioid SS mike was flat in freq response, but it was smooth and rounded like tubes.  I tried Shure, Schoeps, AKG small diaphragm cardioid mikes, but my favorite sound was the Neumann KM184 for its brilliance.  I didn't even consider any tube mikes or tube mike preamps, because I had long outgrown my brief infatuation with romantic, euphonic tube sound.  The industry standard mike preamp was the Millenia Media for accuracy.  But the Bryston and John Hardy mike preamps were significantly more revealing.

There were only a dozen EVS 1200 amps made.....there is nothing to answer.  There is one guy who preferred some $7K mono block tube amps on his modded Ulfberht's.  Everyone else is happy.  What I do know is that the stock IceEdge (Legacy type implementation) is not something I could live with.  The mods (by the way, if you want to know more about them......just call me and I will describe every mod in detail to you) change/improve the sound a lot.  However, knowing what is possible....there is no way the modded IceEdge is state of the art.  There is always more.  

I don't see any "refined" parts in the Legacy amp.  The raising of the input impedance is just one of 13 things I do to the module.  Many things I did to the module made more difference than raising the input impedance.

stock IceEdge amp review.....
http://www.10audio.com/mivera_1200as2.htm

A review of the Legacy i-v7 amp (the same as the I-v4 Ultra except all channels hooked up).  When he listened in stereo, I believe, he listened to the front channels in mono block mode.  Read the review.....he liked it....however, it did not do everything as well as his reference amp.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/legacy-audio-i-v7-multichannel-amplifi...

Ric specifically states that increasing the input impedance to 150K ohms sounds "way better."

That's furphy.
That is only true if it's input impedance was <10kohm and when if what's driving it, has a "high'ish >1kohm" output impedance, like tube pre or passive pre.
But as said, it had 38kohm input impedance, and just about anything drives that, so it's a furphy.

Cheers George

"Thanks for being totally honest.  My audio experience started as a child 66 years ago as a 2 year old child.  The classical music radio station was playing all the time.  Audio was my first understood language, since I said my first English words at age 3.  I started the violin in school at age 9, although as an amateur I didn't make my debut until age 40, playing solo in the Mendelssohn violin concerto.  My audiophile life started when I was 25, so my audio qualifications are based on many years of familiarity with live sound.  I dabbled in recording, experimenting with various top condenser mikes.  Like you, I learn much from random audio experiences anywhere.  Although my expertise is classical music, one of the best live experiences I had was in the summer of 2005 in New Orleans just before Katrina at the Preservation Hall.  A small unamped jazz band with piano played in a small cave of a room with 3 rows of audience benches.  The sound cracked and snapped excitement. On vacations, I enjoy street performers and the bells of street cars.  Anyone who says that they want to smooth out the sharp, brilliant natural sounds of reality is missing the boat and defiling the concept of high fidelity.

You are smart to enjoy your stock Legacy IV as it is.  It is possible it is better than the stock Rouge Audio Studio N-10DM because of more refined parts, etc.  Possibly the most important mod that Ric does is increase the input impedance from 38K ohms to 150K ohms.  I am not a circuit engineer, but I would make an analogy that just as with moving coil cartridges, 47K ohms reveals more HF than loading down a cartridge way below at 100-1000 ohms.  Advocates of loading down the cartridge say that many MC cartridges have HF ringing, so the ringing is reduced by loading down.  All I know is that in my experience using various MC cartridges with various phono preamps, I hate the rolled off duller sound when the loading down is used.  Ric specifically states that increasing the input impedance to 150K ohms sounds "way better."

Agree--don't break your back and bank account by trying to find a heavy expensive amp that is better than the Legacy IV."

@viber6 Great post,...thanks. Based on actual facts and experiences too,...somewhat of a rarity at times here on the 'gon I note. It's amazing to me that some are entirely comfortable to draw conclusions based upon conjecture, not actually putting their hands on an item and checking it out first hand but that's nothing new here.

When time and finances allow again (just did a number of power cord, digital cable and one pair of analog XLR upgrades in the last few months so laying low and enjoying what I've got) I might actually pick up a couple other amps and given them a shot. The problem is that until you live with amps (or anything else) long enough to break them in thoroughly and really put them through their paces, I believe that you cannot make a qualified judgement on any piece of gear, cable or speaker.  

As an aside, I also grew up surrounded by music; big band, the jazz greats, classical etc,...in an environment with a father, aunt and grandparents that loved listening to recorded music and playing music with a father who loved to play live music immensely so grew up playing trumpet and piano just like he did (and loving every minute of it), big band, jazz ensemble, wind ensemble, orchestra some a lot of drum corp,  and also played guitar.

"A review of the Legacy i-v7 amp (the same as the I-v4 Ultra except all channels hooked up). When he listened in stereo, I believe, he listened to the front channels in mono block mode. Read the review.....he liked it....however, it did not do everything as well as his reference amp.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/legacy-audio-i-v7-multichannel-amplifi..."

An i.V7 amp is not the same as an i.V4 Ultra amp. They have same number of boards sure, but they are not configured the same. In the i.V4 Ultra, one board is used to drive one channel using the full capability of the board that is used to drive 2 separate channels in the 7-ch version (i.e. both sides of the board are used to drive a single channel with all other benefits noted on this and the other thread) plus (from what I'm told) various other improvements.  

If I misunderstood your comment or I don't know enough about the guts of electronics in this hobby I enjoy, that's cool, I'm open to learning.

To the other part of your post,....send me an IM here with your contact info and we can get together by phone. I'd like to know the 13 improvements you propose and I'll find out what if anything has already been done by Legacy and assuming non-conflicting lists, I will give strong consideration to your mods either now if I can get assurance (from Legacy) that I'll keep my warranty, or on the day it runs out.

Frankly if you have real ways to take this amp that impresses me daily better, that will take it and refine it even further,....no b.s., I would be open to considering them.

Sounds like an archaic comment from someone who's only heard cheap crap. Some of the top high end speakers being made today, like Dutch & Dutch 8C or HEDD Type 20 use Class D amps and sound spectacular, refined, accurate. Go back to 1985 and enjoy your life. 

@dougeyjones

I have had a number of removed posts reinserted after contacting AGon. Some of these mods are way too PC

@viber6

Keep in mind the dac in the now ~ 10 y/o 105 is far from SOTA, as is the AA dac/pre, meaning a significant dac or dac/pre upgrade might well be more accurate without being hot, but... Typically, dac/pres are a rare breed, and separates may, or may not, be a significant upgrade, depending on additional; iso devices, power cords and cabling. Alas, those are $$$$$, and since everything is a compromise, one must choose their poison based on wallet.

Underwood is now selling a wide range of Audio-GD kit. Their R2R dacs and preamps look excellent, with extraordinary build quality. Their R2R-1 FPGA PCM/DSD DAC @ $1,199.00 might be an upgrade to my now 5 y/o AA DDP-1. For the well heeled; R7HE MK2 State of the art Resistor Ladder DAC FPGA controlled upgradable DAC w/regenerative power supply $4990.00

https://www.underwoodhifi.com/products/audio-gd
hth

tweak1,
As I understood your earlier post, the WW optical cable seemed to be the factor rounding off the original "hot" sound of the EVS1200.  Which cable produced the "hot" sound?

As you know, my limited experience of GaN with the Merrill Element 114 only, showed warmish sound.  I am certainly open to hearing about other GaN amps, but so far, the IceEdge 1200 module seems to be SOTA.

ricevs,
Thanks for posting the hometheaterhifi review of the IV7.  His reference amps are the BAT and Pass, which are euphonic.  All the musical and movie examples he cites show more clarity/detail from the IV7 than from his reference amps.  At the end, he claims that the IV7 still has a tiny bit of treble grain.  This shows a lack of understanding of HF detail.  The real thing--live unamped instruments and voices--can be quite irritating heard at close range where microphones are placed even at only moderately loud SPL's.  Many euphonically oriented listeners say that the unpleasant HF detail is treble grain.  I interpret that review as 100% glowing enthusiasm, if you know how to review the reviewer.  It is still useful, and I commend his descriptions of musical examples.

As for your one customer who preferred his $14K/pr tube amps to the EVS1200, you know what I would say to that.  Everyone is entitled to his preference, but so far, I have not heard anyone who did an A/B of an IceEdge 1200 AS1 amp with any expensive "SOTA" amp say that such a "SOTA" amp had better clarity/information retrieval.  The most informative person is zephyr24069 who didn't have the Esoteric Grandioso M1 mono blocks at the same time as his Legacy IV4 ultra, and made a judgment in retrospect that they were comparable.  But he said that the Esoteric A-02 stereo was warmer.  So I'll go on record here and say that nobody has yet heard any amp of better clarity/detail than the best implementations of IceEdge 1200 AS1.  The highbrow types that own and dealers who sell, uber expensive amps would never submit to an A/B with a cheap great class D amp and report the results in an unbiased manner.  Their egos and businesses are at stake.

The tube amps that were preferred are less than $8K for the PAIR. This person just got an all out, very latest McCormack DNA 0.5 and thinks its the best amp....tube or solid state...he has ever heard. The DNA amps are not produced anymore so you have to find a used one and send it to Steve and have him do all his latest mods and tweaks.....apparently, everything is rebuilt.

Here is a review of some other persons mod to his DNA-1
https://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/24/240679.html

Modders rule....he he


You omitted his statement:

• Soundstage width and depth presentation not quite as “big” as some other reference-level amplifiers.

Did you read the 10 Audio review I posted? He does not think it is anywhere near as good as his Benchmark or many other amps.....only rated it an 8 on his 10 scale. There are tons of people who have sold stock IceEdge module amps (Mivera amps, for instance) as these stock IceEdge amps did not compete in their system.

I am not saying you should not buy the IceEdge based Rouge and sent it to me. Just trying to give some perspective. Truth is not a guessing game. In my direct experience, the modded IceEdge are very good. Stock, I found it boring and Blah.

I don’t see much point in interacting in this kind of debate if the mods are going to delete/ban people for having a different opinion.

@dougeyjones  Its not the difference of opinion that got your posts removed, it was that you violated a forum rule. As an example, you can't call someone 'stupid' or anything like that. You **can** call the comment the person made stupid. The distinction is 'attack the post, not the poster'. If you follow that rule you won't get posts removed.


I've auditioned a number of mics against my Neumann U67s and find that they are actually quite neutral. Just because something is tube does not mean that it has to be colored- so much depends on topology. For example, to get rid of the 2nd order to which so many solid state advocates object, we designed our tube amps to be fully differential from input to output. In this manner the even orders cancel in the amp, not just at the output. By doing this our primary distortion product is the 3rd harmonic. It masks the presence of the higher orders and so the amps sound very smooth, and because the even orders are mostly cancelled, also very transparent. This is BTW how a lot of solid state designers do it also!


You can make a solid state amp that makes a lot of the 2nd order, and it too will sound smoother; Sunn very famously did that with their first solid state guitar amps in the late 1960s, by making almost the entire amplifier single-ended (which is where most of the 2nd order comes from). Its more about topology than it is tube or solid state. Our class D amps have a distortion signature that looks a lot like a tube amp (as does the AGD Audion) and no surprise, these amps sound nice and smooth. 


@tweak1  To be clear, the moderators are not 'PC' so much as someone reported a post you made- that's how moderators find out about forum violations. I'm a moderator on a different site if you're wondering how I know this.

ralph -- don’t waste your breathe...  it isn't that people like this don't understand, it is that they can't help themselves and they don't care

@atmosphere  

Mods should not automatically pull a post because someone reported it, but they have done so to me on at least 4 different occasions. I reported each to Tammy, who agreed they should NEVER have been removed, and had ALL reposted

@viber6 

It was not the cable (WW Series 8 XLR) it was the Oppo 105 dac that I had direct connected to the XLR inputs on my AA dac/pre, which bypasses the AA dac

hth

Class  D  is what the world is coming to....just like 5G, electric cars,et al.    I remember clearly that CD's were awful....they are not awful now.  The world moves on and some of us will just be burried....and the beat goes on

 

electric cars,et al

The world has a loooong way to go before it's ready for that type of nonsense. But that's a different thread for another day.....

ricevs,
I'll quote your excerpt from that hometheaterhifi review. 

"Soundstage width and depth presentation not quite as “big” as some other reference-level amplifiers."

This reviewer's reference amps are a BAT and Pass, both known to be tubelike.  Tubes tend to have those soundstage characteristics.  The few accurate amps that meet my standards for clarity/detail do NOT have these characteristics.  In my experience, accurate SS amps have relatively thin and focused sound.  I once had a stock tubed Theta preamp.  When I got Roger Modjeski's highest grade tubes for this, the Theta took on more of a solid stage focus with cooler tonality.  So I realized that both tubes and SS can be designed for accuracy/neutrality.  Less accurate electronics usually exhibit greater soundstage width/depth.  This reviewer LIKES the large soundstage width and exaggerated depth of tubelike SS amps.  These amps are akin to taking a mediocre picture and magnifying it.  You cannot increase resolution by magnifying the picture.  If the picture is large enough to view, then magnifying it will make it more blurry and generally less satisfying.  Some people LIKE bigness, bloat and blurry qualities.  I still wonder if anyone can come up with any amp at any price that can better the CLARITY of select IceEdge 1200 AS1 amps.

Telling the truth and describing it is important, we agree.  Can you describe tonally exactly what you find "blah and boring" about the stock IceEdge amps you heard in your own system?  How are your modded amps different tonally?

The Devialet Expert Pro (a hybrid Class D / Class A amp) driving Magicos. The Magic DAC in the Expert is truly phenomenal. QED Genesis Silver Spiral speaker cables - not the most expensive but they paint the whole picture with a massive airy soundstage that is full bodied and ultra detailed but natural. Tidal music streaming (especially the MQA masters)... = Magic sound that is big, dimensional like vinyl, ultra transparent, complex and nuanced, devoid of distortion. Liquid, smooth and fast. Beautiful... i.e. the opposite of what you say.

i concur with @adameos -- the devialet adh integrated amps are full of saturated rich colors and impact... really lovely sound, just the opposite of ’dry’ and ’lifeless’ -- so one could say that class d amplification is like all else in high end hifi -- when you buy smart, and are willing to pay up for quality, you get what you pay for...

JJSS49; why thank you sir! 

Check out PS Audio Stellar series.  I believe Stereophile did a review praising the M700 mono amps, which I have.  Awesome sounding ...in my opinion.  

ricevs,
I read the 10audio review of the Mivera amp, a stereo stock IceEdge 1200 AS2.  Pretty bad--rolled off HF with all the deadly consequences for detail, spatiality, etc.  I'm sure the 1200 AS1 stock used for each channel would be better, but how much?  Since you believe there is nothing special about Legacy IV2, is it just a stock 1200 AS1 with fancy casework, etc.?  How do you explain the great reviews of the similar IV4 ultra, both from hometheaterhifi and our friend zephyr24069?

1. Brand biased to Legacy Audio
2. Advertising dollars

Using one channel of 1200AS2 is identical to single 1200AS1
Using one channel each of 2 x 1200AS2 is identical to 2 x 1200AS1
Using both channels of 1200AS2 sounds identical to one channel each of 2 x 1200AS2, except you have 1200w@4ohms vs 670w@4ohms for 1200AS2.

If you plan on purchasing an amp, and having Ric do his mods, why wouldn't you buy used instead of new? Once Ric's mod's are applied, you lose your warranty anyway. If you check HiFiShark, you'll almost be guaranteed of finding a used Icepower 1200as2 amp for sale.

To address the direct comment and its implications, yes, I am a fan and long term customer of Legacy Audio however I have also owned as well as heard and praised many other brands.

Brand affinity does not however mean that my ears don’t work well and I don’t know what I am hearing in the context of the system as a whole, cables utilized, etc after 12 months of nearly 100% daily listening.

Sorry Zephyr, my comments were not meant as an insult or disrespect, and if you took it that way, I apologize.

I’m biased towards Wilson Audio speakers, and my feelings are the same as yours in regards to other manufactures. However, bias does play a big part in anyone’s purchasing decision.

Everything makes a difference.  Most here are ignorant of that fact. Most people just buy stuff and listen.  They have no idea what things do inside the box.  Hardly anyone knows that every single thing you do changes the sound.  If you have 5 manufacturers using the stock IceEdge module, you will have 5 different sounds.  And 2 of the 5 would be wildly different.  Even the AC inlet makes a serious difference.......the AC wire inside, the power switch, the chassis vibrations, the hook up wire, grounding, jacks, brands of solder, etc to infinity.  Give me that exact Mivera amp in the review and one hour later with my tweaks you will have a noticeably better sounding amp without even touching the module.  Many of the mods I do to the module make it more open, dynamic and extended.  The soundstage gets larger and not in some kind of exaggerated way.  Some stock components will shrink the soundstage.....some will artificially expand it.  Some components will sound very detailed but still dry up the 3D live sound.  A large bodied guitar should should sound like a large bodied guitar.....this is how it sounds live.  It should not be a pin pointed super small cardboard cutout.  If you have a perfect recording and played back through perfect gear then you should get the exact live concert.  There is no perfect recording, there are no perfect playback components.  The fact that our stereos sound great is a miracle.....plain and simple. 

Audio is not simple.  There is no end to this game.  There are no measurements that tell you which brand of solder sounds best.  You have to listen.  Drag racing is simple......you have 5 factors.....power, weight, drag, traction and gearing.....and it is all measurable by the clock.  There is no clock in audio....there is just our ears.  Since everything makes a difference in the sound and it cannot be measured.....well.....Pandora's box times infinity.  Enjoy the ride.  If you think you "know something"......well, it is just your ego wanting to be in control.  What you know.....is what you experience.  Everything else is just guesses.  When you know yourself as essence, you will know everyone as essence.  We are all beautiful and worthy....everyone.