For a while now I've been reading these forums and to be honest i was thinking of leaving. I felt a bit out of depth given that it seems so many others have had so much experience through owning what seems to be tens of speakers, amplifiers, DACs etc etc and reading people buying and selling piece after piece after piece on the search for some sound....
When someone asks advice about a certain item it seems like half the audience have owned it and moved on and have a comment to make. I then read about someone buying an extremely expensive amp and deciding quickly to sell it because it doesn't sound right. Then someone else is on their fourth DAC in a year.
So all these people have advice to give. What I'm wondering now is, is advice from a person who's never content, constantly changing their system, never living with a system for long enough, and have more money than patience, really the right person to take advice from? .
There seems fewer (maybe they're less vocal) people who buy gear and spend the time to appreciate it, and have maybe only had a very few systems in their lifetime. I think I'd rate their advice higher on the gear they know than the constant flipper/upgrader.
Is the constant flipper/upgrader always going to say that the gear they used to own was no good and they've now got better? Maybe their constant searching is because their ear is no good or they're addicted to the rush of opening a new box.
Just because person X has owned a lot of equipment doesn't mean their advice is to be sought after, it could mean the exact opposite.
Do you know when a choir sing with each voices distincts and a piano fill the room?
You cannot judge if your system is the better of the world , there is no line there which you will use to decide where are the distances between your actual system and the better in the world...
But when no frequences is under or over the top boosted or deflated by the pressures zones created in your room you will hear it...
because the timbre of any instrument will be better...
And even the best system could do no more than filling the room with a sound out of the speakers...
And you will be amazed by the difference between before and after mechanical, electrical and acoustical controls..
And you will take any upgrade suggestion with a grain of salt...
You will not own the best system in the world but only one working at his optimal...
And any relatively good audio system working at his optimal is already Hi-FI or almost...
FIRST LEVEL : all cd sound almost the same...
This was the case on my first stero system, a wood block with speakers incrusted in that...I had 13 years old...I was listening music not sound anyway...
SECOND LEVEL: Some cd are really better way better recorded and appear so in your system compared to others unlistenable or very bad.... There exist three categories: good ordinary and bad....This appear so in any audio system which is very very good system but not completely well embed in the three working dimensions , mechanical, electrical and acoustical... This is where many if not most audiophiles are...i was listening good albums mainly and orientated toward sounds not only music ...At this level we search for good sound and good acoustically recorded album...Music comes after these good sound requirements...
THIRD LEVEL: These is NO MORE ONLY 3 categories : good ordinary and badly recorded....
Here you will access with the same audio system IF well embedded especially acoustically, you will access to all SPECIFIC acoustic features of all RECORDING albums, so much so that even so called bad recordings will appear less bad than interestings because you will perceive the acoustic choices and trade-off of the recording engineer at this third level...
Each album will be interesting and not so much classified in good or bad, but MOSTLY classified "interesting" and UNIQUE because of such and such ... And the voice or instrumental playing timbre micro-dynamic will be here to listen...
Paradoxically being able to listen to all acoustic details in each album choices, will lead you to forgot sounds and access ONLY to music the specific way the music is presented in this album ... There are plenty of albums that appears good like in second level but not always the same albums exactly because there are others very good albums unrecognized or underestimated at the second level...
But anyway ALL ALBUMS would be somically interesting and particularly some bad recorded one because you could perceive now all recording choices and not only their negative limitations but also their inner acoustic positive secret....
11 Moustachioed Daughters.
Running in a field of fat.
The full moon high, the mandrakes speak, please come
To our sabat.
The changing children shiver round the fire their
Mothers dance.
Strangely painted faces that smile but never laugh.
The crow pecked gibbet's victim, swings broken in his cage
His hands cut down to make a crown to wear as a
Homage.
Round and round the magic things our fingers fastly
Rush
And wolf like things and toads with wings whisper wetly
"Come with us"
Fresh plucked eye of a favourite cat, pulped and mixed
With white hens fat, a lapwings wing, and lions roar, like belladonna to make your eyes
Like a beast
To anoint the body and make it shine
To drink and make thyself divine
To choose another form and make it thine
And knowledge of a blasphemy
And fill the fetid air
With ancient lies
And leprous cries
This night he will be there
A madness has the mouthsgate wide,
As one they sway and moan,
And every brutish face is turned
To see our goat kings throne
Thanks, @ghdprentice...;) Since most of the ''dis'd-assembled " within these hollowed-out grounds are primarily 2 chan, 'balance in all things' ought to be of a primal concern.....*tongue so deep in cheek, extends out ear*
It's only the dipoled omni snorts like moi' that don't need craven hot liquid wax worship objects'd art to distract from the Reel Toot...
*Wry g* Well, there are wrong approaches and errors to be made, in truth of it all. The challenge is to recognize and correct, even if accepting to back up and off....
There is and always be room for improvements in any system in any space.
I suspect that, even for Miller C., at the base of his ears by the root of his mind, there's still that esoteric 'it' that eludes him.....
( I think he needs left AND right lava lamps, but just conjecture on my part....;l...)
I learned far too late in life that a few weeks spent repositioning our speakers is the most important upgrade you can make. And if you haven’t done that, a new DAC or TT or power cord is really just going to be the answer to an unasked question.
For some people the hobby consists mostly of buying things and that’s fine! It’s a hobby. Go crazy! Buy away, and the economy thanks you. I’ve purchased things for the sole reason that I was finally able to afford them, and did it make me happy? Of course it did! Don’t be silly.
Here’s an interesting look at the maximizer/satisfier dichotomy that relates to your comment. And thanks for contributing the thoughtful topic.
@big_greg thanks! I have a VPI Prime special from Upscale Audio, with the VTA on the fly, 10" Fatboy, and upgraded platter and I just could not get to like it. changing the belts back and forth between 33/45, having to calibrate the speed each time, and the anti-skate after thought just did not do it for me. I ended buying a AS Typhoon, and I am much happier. The AS tonearms are mediocre at best, very crude adjustments so I ended buying a 4Point.
@astolforI had a VPI Classic 2 with a Classic 3 tonearm, dual pivot option, and the Periphery Ring. I went from that to an Acoustic Signature Wow XL. Both were great tables. I liked the smaller form factor of the Wow XL for my space and the motor was a little quieter and livelier than the VPI. The VPI on the other hand was great for those less than flat records with the periphery clamp and I liked it better from an ergonomics standpoint. Wow XL was a lot easier to set up. Both are great tables in their price range (I bought both second hand).
My brother-in-law collects, trades, buys and sells cars pretty regularly. It's astonishing how many cars he's been through. Boy he has great advice on any number of those cars he's owned due to first hand experience with driving and repair. My mom has owned her Nissan morano for 12 years. She seems to like it.
It depend if trader guy is above water or total idiotic in debt and should be taking care of house instead. Guy can have mean and like to play or guy can have addiction to try to be satisfy because he have larger issue stem from mommy or daddy. My ex wife have daddy issue and end up trying to be like man in work and power. I like that because she really aggressive but in end turn less feminine and I long for real feminine beauty so one thing lead to another and I become tangle up with her cousin at wedding on yacht in Fiji. Anyway best if seller not in addiction to gear and have fund to play with toy.
There's a lot of good advice in this thread. Joining a local audio group and listening to many systems in real homes is among the best thing mentioned, if that's an option for you.
You can't assume that everyone who has owned many pieces is a flipper and discount their statements/opinions without more context. The financial limitations and other inputs (e.g. relocated from a big house to an apartment) result in many zigzigs even if "flipping to the latest" isn't part of the equation. System synergy is real, and as we moved towards more "rolls of the dice", more bad fits are inevitable. For some, buying used is a long home demo...not the worst idea.
Some of the best advice I've heard is to make an upgrade only if you're confident that it will be SIGNIFCANT. Often that comes at a high cost. So for most of us, that translates to infrequent, but bigger steps.
There's really no wrong answer, but those of us who flip less do free up gray matter for musical discovery, awareness and joy. @reubent@tomic601@big_gregand I spend more of our time on the Gon sharing musical suggestions, enthusiasm and learning in a thread that's been spinning at a steady 33.3 since 2004. IMHO, when your attention drifts similarly vs. "latest/greatest gear", you're on a good path. Cheers,
I'm an upgrader, but as a newbie I start at cheap or not knowing what in looking for so I buy something. Then I learn about what others like and what I'd like to move up to so I make the move. I'm glad I took the advice of others as my Musical Surroundings Nova III was most definitely out classed by my Manley Chinook. I'm now looking to move up again to a higher end Allnic phono. Sometimes the upgrading is a learning process as well as an experience to see what and how things are relatable or different and what you get. That's where I'm at at least and I'm having fun and that's what matters.
these last few posts are a good discussion, perhaps a bit unnecessarily snippy, but the debate and clarification and sharpening of points back and forth are useful and enlightening to those readers who are following, if they have the patience to do so
i would remind folks that building a good sounding system requires achieving synergy up and down the chain, so sometimes, perhaps changing a source (say a dac) brings improvement in added treble clarity in an already warm-sounding system, but maybe it is a touch too far in that direction, so there is some sibilance as a result, so then one moves back from, say a solid state line stage back to a tubed one to deal with that...
maybe another improvement integrates subs in an otherwise very nice sounding standmount speaker based system, but then the user now hears with the great deep bass brought by the subs also a touch of midbass bloat, so then he/she chooses to go from the existing tube amp to a solid state one, to grip the main speakers a touch better and lean out the midbass bloat
if one is fastidious in their approach, gaining some aspect of improvement in a system may indeed also incur a penalty in another secondary aspect of the sound, so a next, knock-on move, is needed to try to keep the gain and minimize the penalty of the initial move
so it isn’t as simple as i’m selling this piece because i didn’t like it... it is much more nuanced if you know what you are doing
and it may not be that i didn’t like these speakers, maybe i found a pair that i like more, overall... this is typical if one likes a line of speakers, say harbeths, and you save for a year, move from compact 7’s to super 5’s, then you find the super 5 super tweet brings a little more sizzle than you expected on streamed music, so you go back in the chain to ameliorate that...
The search for betterment is the passion of the intelligent and curious mind. It is not a disease and not a symptom of a disease. The inability to understand that coupled with the need to ridicule it is, however, a symptom of retardation.
this line patent? You guy need relax by using meditate technique not the booze and dope.
@surfcatWow, what reactionary comments to my post, can't even discern my agreement that experienced may in fact be trusted advisors. I simply pointed out two local flippers I wouldn't trust giving me advice. Are you making the argument that all flippers are trusted advisors?
Now as to why its important to understand what you don't like before you can determine your preferences for sound quality. I'd like to think that most of us have a destination in mind when we took up this hobby/obsession. I assume this destination is to have a wonderful at home music listening experience. Certainly most have to experience much equipment to reach this goal, equipment comes, equipment goes, the equipment that goes is what you DIDN'T like. You may also end up at a destination you discover doesn't satisfy in the long run, that may be a system that's excessively analytical or romantic, at this point you've discovered you DON"T like that particular overall sound quality.
And so, you say we don't need to learn what we dislike, so the question becomes, is there anything you dislike? Why did you change out equipment if you did in fact like what you just got rid of? For no reason? You either found that piece of equipment lacking in some manner or you're just churning equipment. The churner has no destination I can discern, or at least the same destination that I and many others have.
Also, I can't trust the churner's opinion about any piece of equipment they're selling or reviewing since they can't say they DIDN'T like it, remember not liking equipment or particular sound qualities is of no consequence in discovering what you do like. This is an attitude that permeates professional reviews, virtually nothing is bad here, have to read between the lines in order to discern the barrest minimum of contextual perceptions.
When purchasing used equipment one of my first questions is, why are you selling this piece? Churners never tell me anything of consequence, they'll just tell you they're moving on, the honest person will tell you what they didn't like about how piece fit in their system. I certainly have no issue with churners telling me nothing, with so many constantly changing variables (the constant churn) what else could they say. I've had churners buy equipment from me as well, saw the piece I just sold them up for sale a day or two later. Not flipping to make profit, I guess they determined after one or two listening sessions piece not good. Seems to me they could have done some due diligence and researched sound qualities of this particular piece prior to purchase and the churn. In this case I suspect addiction to the churn. This type of churner has nothing of consequence to say in reason for sale, just as they don't in giving advice.
On the other hand, the former churner has reached their destination, that destination being the enjoyment of music played on that particular collection of equipment. Certainly, they may over the long run continue to change out a piece here and there, but that doesn't mean their unhappy with the present destination, rather its like visiting a formerly unknown place of interest within lived in town.
After nearly thirty years at this I'm so happy I've reached my destination, yes, there are some unknown places of interest in my town, but I sure love my town.
In conclusion, I have no problem with churners with a destination in mind, at least this person can tell you specific issues they had with equipment, they gave it a fair shake. The other kind of churner simply changes out equipment because they're moving on, what does this tell me, nothing of consequence, without a fair shake they'll tell you whatever you want to hear, or criticism that may have no merit. I also think its fair to question the credentials of those whith very limited experience with variety of equipment, they lack the contextual knowledge.
Ah yes ,I like the questions.How do you trust someone who is always changing systems. I'm another audio nut,who buys alot of stuff.I have learned the hard way about buying used audio equipment. The price looks great for a piece of equipment that cost thousands when new and now it's being sold for hundreds. I have bought so junk...it should of never been sold.The buyer Beware.....take it from someone who has been burned a few times.
"The search for betterment is the passion of the intelligent and curious mind. It is not a disease and not a symptom of a disease. The inability to understand that coupled with the need to ridicule it is, however, a symptom of retardation."
I assume that you would approve of our local high end market populated in great part by local and emigrant Chinese auidiophiles, who buy the new models of any well reveiwed gear the minute the review comes out and sell their one or two year old gear at cut rate prices to those of us who aren’t so easily influenced?
Don’t distort what I said - the urge to improve a system is indeed a natural one that we have all indulged in, but the urge to do so in an obsessive manner is unhealthy and unnatural.
When the internet evolved beyond the old BBS world I thought this was gonna be great, people sharing knowledge, growing with and from one another. Has turned into something rather different, polluted by self-righteous and cowardly bullies hiding behind annonyimity to be intolerantly rude and judgemental and dumping the stream fecal sewerage the emminates from their mind into the clearer waters of those wanting and willing to listen and share. Audiogon and the audiophile community is certainly not alone in this unfortunateness. Some people want to stay with the same audioi system forever. Fine, I'd never put them down for it. Some people like to experiment. Sometimes they even do heretical things like adjust the hue or bright/contrast of the TV or even buy a new one! I'd never put them down for that either.
And there's one tremendously ironic thing about this dynamic and we see it displayed widely and clearly here. The people who do experiment and change equipment and spend money on what have often, but not always, provided some small improvement in the experience and have proven to be advancements in the technology of audio reproduction are almost NEVER judgemental of those who don't experiment with changing equipment. They consistely and sincerely express the position of, "Hey, I think it's great that you love your system the way it is. Good for you." It's universally the people who don't want to change anything and/or won't spend even a little bit of money to try something new who pile on with riducule, smug abuse and, honestly, a lot of ignorance as they attack people who are just having an open conversation. Cowards hiding behind a screen, armed with a keyboard, spewing sewage into otherwise interesting waters.
You say you only trust the people who've learned "what they DON'T like." Why? What's wrong with people who've bought a piece of equipment they do like and sharing that?? If you go into a wine shop do you say to the person working there, "Hey, listen, just tell me all the things here you don't like?" If you're thinking about going on a trip, the beach, skiing, traveling abroad and someone starts telling you about a place they really enjoyed do you say, "Hold on there! I only want to here about bad trips you've had." If you suddenly discover you need a plumber and a neighbor starts telling you about a great experience they had with a particular plumber do you say, "Whoa whoa whoa, I only want to here about all of the crappy plumbers you've hired?"
You're whole story makes no sense, in fact it smells, like sewerage. I'm calling BS on it. It's made up trash to support your self annointed superiority. Never happened.
The search for betterment is the passion of the intelligent and curious mind. It is not a disease and not a symptom of a disease. The inability to understand that coupled with the need to ridicule it is, however, a symptom of retardation.
@jjss49 Well said and I agree. It’s not a bad way to decide on medical advice. Don’t trust the loudest voices or the ones with agendas behind their advice.
lol - when my parents got old and sick with cancer, we would visit an oncologist, they would recommend chemo therapy, we would then see a surgeon, guess what, he says by far the best way is surgical resection, then we call on a radiation oncologist, now just guess what they recommended as the ideal initial treatment????
when what you have is only a hammer in your tool-belt, the world quickly looks like a giant, endless bed of nails
Maybe I start thread ranking quality of member advice of thing like speaker and tweak. I be at the top of list with golden ear reward. Even my ear hair made of diamond.
@jjss49 Well said and I agree. It's not a bad way to decide on medical advice. Don't trust the loudest voices or the ones with agendas behind their advice.
@douglas_schroeder Appreciate your comment very much, and your reviews always educate me. In particular, you said, "I am a System Builder, who loves working with different gear to hear the result....The performance spectrum is much larger than you seem to realize....[it] is enormous and it goes quite a ways upward into SOTA."
I'm into this hobby in part for the music but also to see how much my sensibilities (cognitive and auditory) can be advanced. If one wants to get better at tennis, play someone better; if one wants to get better at audio, seek better sound.
i know this is a discussion forum with mainly bored geezers entertaining themselves sipping coffee with background music, but let’s be serious for a minute
how do you get information and advice on anything if it is really important to you?
first, understand your source, what do they have to gain in giving you information, and you deciding one way or another? what is their dog in the hunt? are they seemingly helping you but actually helping themselves?
second, are they credible? aside from motivation, what is their experience level, their qualification for providing that info? do they practice what they preach?
third, what is the consequence to you of acting on the info and it’s actually bad info? how much effort should you make to ensure all your info is well grounded and accurate, and applicable to you?
@hilde45wrote something to this effect early on... i'm just reinforcing...
chatter is chatter, but let’s not get carried away with the ridiculous
There is a subset of this hobby that suffers from auiophilia nervosa - never satisfied with a current component, always searching for the grail amplifier or speaker.
I can only give anecdotal evidence of a couple local to me flippers. One guy has probably five to ten each of nearly all main pieces of equipment in house at any one time. No room treatments, careless equipment placement, no AC upgrades. Last time I went over to purchase a piece, listened to what was his main system at time, always has at least two systems up and running, main system nearly $100k just in pre, amps, speakers, this with rather mid fi dac. Anyway, very blah sound, lack of resolving power. Upstairs system mid fi all the way although not mid fi price.
I could have put together the best pieces he had in house at time, take some care in what some call tweaks, made a very nice sounding system. This guy obviously doesn't care about sound quality, in fact he wanted mostly to speak about his obsession with audio shows and hob nobbing with audio manufacturers, designers. I see his items up for sale quite often, so still in flipping business. I don't see him giving advice on the forums I visit.
Another local to me I only had phone conversations with, invited me over a number of times, always made excuses not to go. This guy had limitless funds to spend on audio, but far more into cars, he always went on and on about his latest purchases of both, could tell from phone conversations he wasn't into music, all he listened to was heavy rock, and purchases were only signals of status. Boring, smug wealthy nitwit. Don't know if this one giving advice on forums.
So, based on these two, yes, they are clueless and I'd never trust their opinions about much of anything. On the other hand I've been in communication with former flippers who seem to have great knowledge of gear, tweaks, music. These guys I would trust.
In the end, I'd only trust former flippers, those who've discovered what they DON'T like, finally found what they like. While I never considered myself a flipper as I built systems slowly over many years adding new pieces now and then, I too found that discovering what I DIDN'T like let me understand what I do like. IMO, it takes this contextual knowledge to offer advice only to those who know the direction of their system building. The one asking for advice needs to understand their destination point, and the build has to reflect that. Without that understanding, one is likely to become flipper themselves.
I was crafting my reply at about the same time as you and did not see it until I posted. We seem to be approaching the topic similarly. As a former chintziphile who displayed the arrogance that so often comes with ignorance, I don't have much patience for it any longer.
If you have problems with the gear flippers, you can always go to the ignorant for advice. As we all know, lack of experience is a huge advantage. ;)
Don't think for a moment that holding a system for decades is advantageous, except fiscally. In terms of sound quality, it's gentrification. You assure the sound quality is slipping further from SOTA the longer you hold on to your system. If the goal is to not spend money, you have done well. If the goal is to advance your rig and listening experience, you have not done well.
Now, watch, we'll have a diatribe or two from our "thrifty" members who will blab incessantly about how money is fairly disassociated with performance, etc.
I am a System Builder, who loves working with different gear to hear the result, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It is no worse than the person who does DIY equipment and pretends they have vetted it against manufactured products and claims their homemade stuff is superior. It's no worse than the Mediaphile who has a so-so rig, but spends inordinate amounts of money on media.
There are all sorts of perspectives and approaches to this hobby. You don't like the gear flippers? Fine, find someone who anchors to their gear and take their advice. It's not life or death.
mid-fi-crisis, you summarized, "
Is the constant flipper/upgrader always going to say that the gear they used to own was no good and they've now got better? Maybe their constant searching is because their ear is no good or they're addicted to the rush of opening a new box. "
You are overlooking another possiblity, one you may not like. The performance spectrum is much larger than you seem to realize. Show me a gear flipper who is habitually moving backwards in sound quality? You won't find many. They are advancing their systems, and why? Because the spectrum of performance is enormous and it goes quite a ways upward into SOTA. Nothing wrong with their ears at all. They just realize that there is a lot more out there to obtain than the average person realizes and they are committed to it. Most audiophiles want to pretend they are really pushing to get SOTA. No, they are not. They give lip service to it. They don't put in the money, time or energy into it.
Being a reviewer has allowed me to explore parts of the performance spectrum I never would have visited otherwise. I change gear to go deeper into the performance spectrum. So, is there any inherent advantage to listen to someone with less expereince? No, as ignorance is not terribly helpful in this regard. YMMV
Again, we will have all sorts of inexperineced types or chintzy audiophiles arguing that this is all wrong. I do not care about their opinions and have no interest in debating my discussion.
When I wish to learn, I pay less attention to what others say. I build systems, and imo so do those who are actually working to obtain superior sound.
So, pick; get your advice from someone who is largely ignorant of the performance spectrum, or someone with much more expereince. You pick your authority, you get your results. :)
And again, what a judgemental, self-righteous bunch. So you're asking if you should take advice from people who constantly upgrade. The most obvious answer is, "YES!" They've listened to a lot of different things, in a lot of different combinations. A better question for you would be to ask if you should take "input" rather than "advice". The answer is still, "yes", for the same reason. Any modern audiophile level system, even at the very bottom of the class, is going to sound really nice compared to the cheap Best Buy system most people put in their home. And, btw, that's great for them if that's all they want. We've all been there, all started there, well most of us anyway. Point is, there are a lot of people in here who've blown themselves away by how great there little system sounds, conclude that because they so enjoy listening to it that nothing could sound better and anyone who wants anything different is a fool. I don't eat the same meal for dinner every night, I don't wear the same shoes everday, I don't go see the same performances time after time and I don't listen to the same CD forever and ever. People who've had a lot of different components in their home have explored the nuances of sound variation that come from changing any and every single piece. (hey, let's have some fun watching a select and particularly self-righteous segment of this group melt down of what impact changing cables has!!). You can learn a lot about a landscape by talking with people who've walked down many paths. There is one caveat, however, and that is that there are people (many/few?) who claim to have owned components that they've only ever seen online or in one of those old things called "magazines". Their input is not completely useless because they are regurgitating the lessons learned by professional reviewers with far more knowledge/experience than the group here. Just remember that another word for regurgitation is vomit, tho.
Digital has evolved significantly in the past 30 years (heck, I was using a 16 bit Sony CDP 30 years ago). Analog, not so much-except the price tag of the discs and the gear
I can count on half a hand the number of people whose advice I trust. So yes, I'd say almost everyone's advice is suspect. Humans are predisposed to too many cognitive biases to be dependable. And obviously, that's not just in audio. It's in everything.
Since I depend on measurements, personal research and knowledged gained, my systems tend to be outside the herd-think of forums, and it has worked out well. My components tend to stick around with no complaints or regrets.
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