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Integrateds: Why do they all SUCK?
I’m trying to find a HIGH QUALITY integrated that has:
1. A no-corners-cut real class A - A/B power stage.
2. A real, high quality analog preamp line stage.
3. A good phono stage.
Aside from a few very high end products, the above described integrateds seem not to exist. Why can’t I find a quality integrated? Do we just have to accept having a pile of boxes?
1. A no-corners-cut real class A - A/B power stage.
2. A real, high quality analog preamp line stage.
3. A good phono stage.
Aside from a few very high end products, the above described integrateds seem not to exist. Why can’t I find a quality integrated? Do we just have to accept having a pile of boxes?
203 responses Add your response
Jeepers, casting aspersions on an entire category of equipment without citing the reasons why, such as price and/or anything else, kind of begs off any informative dialogue that might develop. After a good many years spent with separates, and a good many amp/preamp combinations used, I went back to a quality integrated simply to remove all the fuss/cables. I don’t know what price point the op is considering so I’m just going to say that if one is accustomed to spending one’s dollars on separates, one should be prepared to spend a similar amount on an integrated. My experience with a B. A. T. Preamp for my Pass Labs X150.5 amp resulted in my purchasing a B. A. T. Integrated with an identical power rating to the Pass Labs. The VK300XSE has a good phono stage, puts out 150 watts @ 8ohms, 300 @ 4ohms, is tubed, and takes up less space. I bought it refurbished for approximately half it’s original msrp and am quite satisfied with its unsuckiness! |
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That looks like a pretty well balanced system to me. At the risk of having Schiit rained down on my I would say the Freya is indeed the weak link. So why not just upgrade the preamp? What makes you think you need an integrated? That looks like a pretty serious amp, some nice sources and good speakers. You're almost there. I would think keeping most of your current equipment and upgrading the preamp would also be cheaper in the long run then going integrated. The simple fact you already own the amp means you don't need an amp. Good luck and keep posting like that polite and informative with no insults! |
Sources: MoFi Studio Deck + AT-OC9ML/II + Musical Fidelity LX-LPS. Dedicated audio PC + Holo Cyan DSD. Pre: Schiit Freya Amp: Linnenberg Allegros Speakers: Fritz Carbon VII SE I want to upgrade the pre, phono stage and speakers. I’m not stuck on the phono, maybe the case can be made I should upgrade the table and arm before worrying about the phono. But I really want to move up my preamp game, the Freya was always just a filler piece. I highly value soundstage and imaging. I would also like more resolution, and I really, really miss physical dynamic power. I’m trying to get the best speakers I can, but the need to upgrade these other components is fighting against this goal, so I hoped an integrated could help. |
" A re-occurring theme in these integrated units are these digital volume control schemes, usually some kind of electronically-controlled resistor ladder. Even very high-quality units everyone loves like the Esoterics use these. Virtually all solid-state integrated units use these things...from Simaudio, to Esoteric to Marantz to Luxman all the way down to Yamaha. Even the more boutique brands like Musical Fidelity...even Accuphase! WHY??? Am I just being bigoted against these electronic line stages? Can these really provide the lushness and three-dimentionality you would expect out of a "proper" active class A line stage?" --------------------------------------------------------- I don’t think you know anything about electronics at all. What does an active class A line stage (line level output) have anything to do with the gain being controlled by a resistor ladder circuit? Class A output (line or phono or power amp level) is basically biasing the amplification device (tube or transistor) such that they are always on, rather than off during the negative cycle of a audio signal. A resistor ladder circuit introduces combinations of resistors in the audio output signal to reduce or increase the signal magnitude, ie, controls the volume of the signal. It’s not a digital method, it’s purely analog. Another purely analog method is usage of a potentiometer, with does the same thing, but uses a variable resistor instead of discrete resistors...and they degrade the signal and wear out over time, are noisy in general. Another method is to use optical encoders from the knob to control discrete resistors and transistors (like my Ayre K5xeMP, which has one of the best volume controls I have ever encountered, and it’s not even their high end linestage). The digital means of controlling volume is taking a digital signal of high bit depth and trimming the bit depth. It can be lossy or lossless, depending on the method used, and its purely for digital amplifiers and DACs, you wont find that in an analog device. |
The animal skin clad, decrepit, mud-stained clan hunkered closely together as huge rain drops relentlessly pelted their goosebumped, filthy bodies. A thunderous clap in the sky had just accompanied a jagged bolt of lightning that exploded their ‘gathering tree’ and left its remains ablaze, turning the pitch black sky into brightness much like that of mid-day sunlight. Flames from the blaze shot skyward which reflected the shock and fear in the frightened faces of the huddled, awestruck tribe. Hesitantly, with much trepidation, their leader, MADAVID0, approached the burning, crackling conflagration engulfing their ‘gathering tree’. If he could have spoken (written nor spoken language had yet evolved within this particular, isolated population) he might have said, ‘WTF!!! That's friggin’ HOT, go find us a witch to burn!’ Instead, given his limited ability to express himself, and the mysterious nature of this new phenomenon, MADAVID0 inexplicably jumped into the blaze, leaping full speed into its white hot center! The clan gasped and moved even closer together, jaws agape, spittle hanging from their lips and incisors, unsure what to do! Alas, MADAVID0 did not emerge from the blaze, and it was days later, after the enormous fire had subsided, when the frightened band poked long poles into the ash and smoldering embers to reveal the remains of their charred leader.
Had they been able to speak, they might have said it, but were unable.
Mute, they just drooled, shuffled, whimpered a little, and stared. Anthropologists now postulate, though, that it was at that precise moment when prehistoric bands began to think it, ‘tastes like chicken!’ Enter your text ... |
Madavido, your perception of modern circuit design is way skewed. "Digital volume control schemes, usually some kind of electronically-controlled resistor ladder." If you are switching in individual resistors on a chip or using an optical encoder to open up a physical relay it shouldn't make any difference. Switching in individual resistors should sound better than a pot. Most all preamp circuits are run in Pure Class A anyway. Some modern devices do employ an all digital topology that requires that analog signals are turned into digital in order to work within their designs so I can understand a bias against these designs. The real discussion is why you perceive that most modern integrated amplifiers "suck." The Esoteric unit you mentioned sounds very good, so does Luxman, and Accuphase. We have sold the Luxman pieces, and Esoteric and Hegel as well as Electrocompanient, and Norma, as well as Naim and others, many of these modern integrated sound fantastic. One of the world's best sounding integrated amplifiers does fit your bill it is $18k and it does use a relay switched individual resistor design. The T+A HV PA 3000 it also can be fitted with an outstanding phono card. The amp is 300 watts into an 8ohm load and 500 into a 4 ohm load so it can drive almost any speaker system ever built. It might fit your bill. http://www.ta-hifi.de/en/audiosystems/hv-series/pa-3000-hv-integrated-amplifier/ Perhaps you are listening to the wrong integrated amplifiers? Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
A re-occurring theme in these integrated units are these digital volume control schemes, usually some kind of electronically-controlled resistor ladder. Even very high-quality units everyone loves like the Esoterics use these. Virtually all solid-state integrated units use these things...from Simaudio, to Esoteric to Marantz to Luxman all the way down to Yamaha. Even the more boutique brands like Musical Fidelity...even Accuphase! WHY??? Am I just being bigoted against these electronic line stages? Can these really provide the lushness and three-dimentionality you would expect out of a "proper" active class A line stage? |
Hmmm the OP gives me the impression that his mind cannot be changed. So be it. Very, and I do mean very, recently I purchased my very first integrated which by the way includes a Phono and headphone stage along with 4 additional ANALOG connections. I'm still in the early evaluation stages but so far my reaction has been very positive. Clearly an improvement over my separates system which is also still in use. I took a chance after reading a lot of opinions and so far most opinions did not hold water. Some did though. I will write a review on this integrated matched with some difficult speakers to be posted at the end of the month. It will be my impression good and bad. The purpose of the review is to help others who may be floundering with the integrated issue. Salute! |
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I’m seriously starting to despair at finding a high quality integrated with a REAL active line stage and a high-quality MC phono stage. I’m trying to get off this separates upgrade spiral. Is this just not possible? I'll check out the ones people are posting...but man, researching integrated amps is like a case study in things that SUCK. |
This topic, as
submitted, is a good example of why some people think that high-end
audiophiles are a bunch of jerks. So “all integrated amps suck”
do they? Let's consider this issue as if we were talking about cars.
I would hope most Audiogon Forum contributors would agree that there
are integrated amps that perform at the level of a 3 Series BMW, or
even of a Porsche Boxster. Many people enjoy those cars and are well
pleased with them for their price range, even though they may not
equal the performance or status of a McLaren. If you have the means
to drive, say, a Pagani Huayra and then trade it in for a Bugatti
Veyron, then good for you. But if you roll down your window at
traffic lights to inform BMW drivers that their cars all suck, then
you are just a jerk. |
I’m trying to find a HIGH QUALITY integrated that has:I guess you never heard of the Parasound Halo Integrated. 160/270 wpc into 8 and 4 ohms, respectively. Has well-reviewed DAC and MC/MM phono stage. Stereophile Class A recommended component. Priced at $2495, it is thousands of dollars less than anything else in that category. |
What are you talking about? Simaudio 700, Mark Levinson585, Ayre AX5 Twenty, Pass Labs int 250 are all regarded as outstanding. Your question doesn't indicate power or price considerations or if tubes are wanted so the likes of Audio research may or may not be of interest. This is just for starters. |
any old QED product; have not found anything better than my 240 SA, except I would like to find a QED 300 SA, which I think has front and rear speaker outs; Nakamichi, T$A is too base driven, and I no longer use it be nice to find a well-rounded CD player and a dragon killer as well.would unload both my 1000s |
Look no further than the Esoteric F-05. I just collapsed my 5 piece bryston 7B SST2’s, BP-26, and Ray Samuels audio F-117 phono stage into this one piece. Did so after auditioning the new bryston 4B 3 and BP 17 Cubed series which are getting rave reviews. The Esoteric F-05 sounded clearly Superior to me on my Focal Sopra2’s and it has a balanced fixed level output which I will use to connect my headphone amp. Not Looking Back. |
