insurance and shipping with UPS

Hey Mr. Moderator.....Delete this !

uberwaltz-

Well, you never know when you're going to open up Pandora's can of worms, do you?

Well this WAS a fairly interesting thread now rocketing down the tubes at a high rate of knots!

Yep, that's what I thought. Another self righteous, condescending disrespectful a-goner who thinks he is smarter than the other person.
Well sir, let the record show that I never once referred to you as a buffoon.

Touche 

spin4cards-
There's a scene in A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court  where the Yankee has an economics discussion with a local. The two disagree. The Yankee has a moment of inspiration and shows in detail how his position is correct. It's wonderful. The discussion is over. he's proven his case in a manner beyond dispute.

That's when he realizes that he's having a discussion with an addle pate, a buffoon that is simply incapable of understanding the simplest of things. I've always thought it a great moment in literature as it illustrates a situation that we sometimes find ourselves in.

Ahem.

HiFi equipment needs double boxing. 
I had a Audio Research GS-Pre (expensive) shipped in from a dealer out of state, as I walked towards the Fedex guy he dropped the box from waist height as if it was an empty box. The preamp was double boxed and was fine.
Also, I had a pair of expensive speakers shipped via freight, one box shifted on the wooden pallet as the tethers had come loose. Someone used the blade of the forklift to push the box back on the pallet, the blade had punctured the cardboard box leaving the blade shape in a few places, luckily the speakers were fine.
These companies don't care, they know it costs around 5k to retain an attorney. 

@spin4cards

How’s life treating you in that parallel universe that you’re living in? You should probably cancel your auto insurance while you’re at it. Total waste of money.

Yep, that's what I thought. Somebody looking for something for nothing.


Now by your own admission, when you insure your business, you pay for it.You're proud of that. Do you expect your insurance company to accept indemnity for your belongings because you're a responsible individual?Nope. you pay your way. You said as much.

On the other hand, you expect the Post Office and by implication, all other carriers to assume liability for your items for basically nothing. It doesn't work that way. There's a cost involved. Insurance is available for the prudent buyer. That's a cost of doing business.


Quite a few years ago, during nuclear disarmament talks, Edward Shevardnadze, the representative of the Soviet Union said  "There's no free launch".

In response to Builder3's post...I'm still not buying it... I paid you (USPS, FedEx etc.) to do your job which is simply to deliver a package. If you can't deliver it safely and in a timely fashion then you need to do something about it. That "Something About It" would not be to make billions of dollars by charging the customer in case you screw up. Very convenient arrangement wouldn't you say?
"KQVQ9", the retired postmaster said in an earlier post... "What do you expect for 50 cents"? I expect you to do your job regardless of what the package is presumed to be worth. What do you get when you multiply that 50 cents times billions, yes that's right, billions of packages? You get billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars! I think for those kind of numbers we should not have to worry about theft or damage.
They may not willingly accept responsibility but they should. Of course, they never will.  

I avoid UPS at all costs. The last piece of gear I bought was shipped via UPS (I forgot to specify against UPS).  It was double-boxed by the seller yet arrived damage anyway.  From what I can imagine based on the damages, I estimate the box was dropped from at least waist-high onto a concrete surface.  Fortunately the amp was repairable and the seller even had replacement parts (surprisingly).  I didn't even bother with the claim expecting a similar situation as yours.  I made the repairs myself with the parts sent to me by the seller.
I much prefer FedEx Ground or USPS.  With USPS, filing a claim is so much easier than anywhere else.

spin4cards7 posts07-26-2018 10:25pmIf it is not considered too off topic, I have a question that may be best addressed by the retired postmaster kqvkq9 although I certainly welcome comments by anyone who cares to chime in. I have a small brick and mortar sports collectible business that I have owned and operated in the same location for 28 years. Naturally, I have insurance for my business and I pay a premium for that insurance. I must repeat, I pay for the insurance for my business. I use the USPS on a daily basis shipping mostly small, First Class packages and a few Priority Mail packages that can weigh up to 20 pounds . These type packages are very easy to package safely. The values on these packages range from $10.00 to $4,000.00. My question is this...If I pay the USPS their fee, which is based on weight and distance, to deliver a package, which is their job, why must I pay them extra to "Insure" that they do the job that I just paid them to do?! This of course holds true also for UPS, FedEx etc..

You really only need to think about it for a moment. No business would willingly accept $4000 of liability for $15.95. If you have an item of high value, you need to act accordingly. Is the auto insurance the same for a 1970 Gremlin and a Ferrari? Do they weigh the cars to set the premium? Of course not.

While there is a 70 pound limit that would eliminate some of these items from consideration, Registered Mail can have insurance for up to $25,000with no issues. The items are passed from hand to hand in the Post Office with each person that handles the piece personally responsible. Those items do not go through the regular mail in any fashion. For a higher fee, armed guards are used. It's an archaic system that has never really needed an update. That's because it works.


The Hope Diamond went to the Smithsonian via Registered Mail.

I'm just sayin'...

Thanks Elizabeth. Fed ex did offer for me to pick up at their depot. But it would be impossible for me to put a 120lb sub in my 3 series bmw.
 It just ruined my day . The lying really got to me , but as you made clear the guys doing the delivery have very little incentive. Even my regular fed ex guy told me it is not uncommon for these guys to do skips and then lie about it. I just do not want to rent a van and go through all the hassle. SVS offers free delivery which was a attractive option. Will see when Monday comes. LOL

I just ordered a sub from SVS and was sent a e-mail that it would be in delivered today by end of day. The carrier was fed-ex. Took the day off and at 2pm was sent a fed ex e-mail that I was not home to sign and take delivery. WOW. Never left my home and checked my video and not one truck or fed ex employee ever came to my front door. Called fed-ex and got the run around. Next date will be next Monday by end of day and will have to take another day off. It will be 50/50 at best for delivery if the same clowns are on the truck. Will be willing to give it one more try, otherwise SVS will get it sent back. It is not their fault but it would be time to pay a visit to a brick and mortar store. Just adding my two cents!!!

Glad to hear that UPS finally paid the claim. Fwiw neither UPS nor Fedex Ground provides insurance per se like the OP mentioned. The Declared Value fee that they use is to determine maximum liability in case of a necessary payout in the event of theft or damage. If you wade deep into the bowels of the Fedex website you’ll find this statement in upper-case: FEDEX DOES NOT PROVIDE INSURANCE. I discovered that the hard way several years ago.

Afaik the Post Office is the only entity that actually insures what you’re shipping.  I've shipped high-end gear via our esteemed Postal Service for many years and never had to make a single claim.  But then again I double-boxed and over-packed everything to withstand a nuclear blast.  

I worked for UPS for a while. I’m also a collector and seller of higher-end audio and know how to pack properly. There’s no excuse for them not to pack that amp properly. I would have double-boxed it with 2x shippers and floated it in foam peanuts. UPS has all the right materials. 

The Pack and Ship service is obligated to make good- esp. if they pack it. As a seller, you need to declare the correct replacement value and must have some proof- a sales receipt is sufficient.

The local franchise sleezed-out and I’m glad you finally got help. 

BTW- there are no limits on the value of the item they will handle- they may choose to crate an item over $1000. It’s still their responsibility.

The last time I shipped by UPS I was told insurance would only cover damage if they packed the item. If I packed, insurance only reimbursed if the the package was lost. So, contrary to several comments here, packing the item yourself is not a great solution either. I haven't shipped UPS since.

Spin4cards-
Maddening, I know. For "premium" services like Priority, Express, and COD,
the insurance is included up to a certain amount. The firm can't include big insurance automatically because the few claimants would raise rates for all.
If you've got something truly valuable, Registered is the way to go. It's not only much safer but when we're talking thousands in value, it actually costs less.

Based on the name, I presume that you're mailing mainly Baseball cards and things of that sort. Small, light, inexpensive to mail while still possiblycontaining items of considerable value. Those are going First Class which has long been the basic letter rate. Those aren't automatically insured because of the volume realized. At least that's my take. Upper Managementnever gives us any rationale as to the why of things. We get the rates and guidelines and very rarely the thought behind why they are set.

In any case, First Class being the basic rate for small items not mailed in bulk can be insured, as you note, but aren't automatically. Imagine, if you will, if all letters carried some sort of insurance. We're not talking millions of pieces in that category but billions. I used to get calls all the time about what one can do if a letter goes astray. A lot of those letters contained checks of various stripes, some quite large. While there are clumsy mechanisms in place that help us stumble through finding packages, even small ones, letter rate being both small and exceedingly numerous, poses a real problem. Should the Post Office include some sort of indemnity on the smallest, most numerous items, one could expect a deluge of claims thatwould raise rates to uncomfortable levels.

Now Officially, I don't know any of that. That's never Officially stated anywhere that I know of and I was there for over 45 years before retiring a few months ago. Common sense though leads me to those conclusions.
To oversimplify, For 50¢ what do you expect?


Realistically, there could be some sort of separation between actual letters and Small Parcels with the small parcel category including some sort of indemnity. I don't know that it's ever been proposed. Those things go through the Postal Rate Commission and we have some serious, high level intellect operating there. At the local level we're frequently puzzled with what goes on higher up the chain.

Isn't that the case with every business?

If there's something that I've neglected in my aimless ramblings here, please do ask. I've likely missed something and I'll do my best to reply.

Talking of UPS, I am waiting for an amp to be delivered which unfortunately the seller insisted on using a local UPS store to pack and ship as they do not have oem packing for it.
This is travelling from Cali to Florida so we will see how it fares, I hope for the best but I will be covered one way or another.
Hope it does not turn into the same mess as the OP post though.

I have also had issues with UPS. Sent an SME 345 tonearm to a friend in California (I’m in in the Toronto area). I keep all my original packaging for ALL my gear, so no problem with me packing it properly in it’s original packaging, and then double boxing. I brought it to UPS and was told that in order to have it insured, it would have to be packed by UPS !! Yeah right, like I’m going to let those chimps handle a tonearm !! I opened my double box, and the original SME packaging and asked if they could possibly package it better than the manufactures original packaging. The answer was obviously "no". So, they agreed to insuring if they did the double boxing (for an additional fee of course) So it arrives in LA, and of course, it’s damaged!! Go figure!! We fought with UPS on both ends for weeks. Luckily we both had photos pre and post shipping. We were eventually awarded partial compensation (around 75%) if I remember correctly. We settled for this, as the damage was purely cosmetic, and not affecting the performance of the arm. UPS is not to be trusted is my lesson learned. Now I have another shipping issue coming up that I am dreading. I bought a ClearAudio Double Matrix Pro Sonic RCM about a year and a half ago. It has to go back to the importer in Montreal for a warranty repair. It is fairly heavy, about 40 lbs. and is very expensive. I now have to figure out a method of getting it from here to there, and properly insuring it for replacement value. I am almost considering driving the 8 - 10 hrs each way to be on the safe side. What a hassle shipping has become.

Here is my somewhat jaundiced view of shipping in the USA from the last 20 years.

Small items up to about 2-3lb weight I find the USPS is very good and fairy priced, tbh in all this time they have never damaged anything and only lost one item.

Medium weight items up to abut 15lb is pretty much a wash cost wise between USPS,UPS and Fedex. Again USPS have been good, Fedex have been good and the only times I tried UPS resulted in damage or seriously delayed delivery!

Heavy items over 30lb it is no contest , Fedex are usually far and away cheaper. Their service is faster than UPS, usually by at least a day on say coast to coast . They have not damaged anything as of yet or lost anything. UPS I have already detailed one of their train wrecks which was not the only one.
In my area at least Fedex also delivers normal ground on a Saturday without having to pay extra for this, UPS do not.

saying all of that I do use UPS a lot...….for next day air letters, this they have been very good at for 20 years never losing one or damaging one, I suspect a completely different department. 

I have currently been dealing with UPS shipping around 19 years and have learned some very valuable lessons during that time. First of all if something has value over $100 dollars you need to insure for over the based value of what you are shipping or they absolutely will not cover it, also always pack the item yourself and never trust anyone to do it for you. If the item has a lot of weight I would simply not ship UPS as it will get damaged or destroyed. If I am forced to ship a heavy item with them pack it like it is being protected from a nuclear blast! We will pack the box inside another box padding all with no room for movement of the item and that way it has a buffer. Also the UPS area you are in will have a rep you can reach out to and this may help you with dealing with the franchise since they are representing their company. Good Luck!

While I agree with some of the comments here regarding going nuclear on the packaging somebody has to pay for it.
In todays market try asking the buyer to pay an extra $150 to help protect his purchase, they are just going to move right along 99% of the time.
So now the seller has to stump up and this cuts into an already greatly reduced baseline due to the terrible selling conditions in the market right now. Lets face it about the only way anything is selling is on price period, does not really matter what it is.
Yes what cost to protect the goods being shipped is the moral story here and again agreed on principle.
But when it boils down to a deal where you are likely already bleeding money it may just not be financially viable.

I recently had a similar problem with FedEx but I had done all the packing myself. I was able to sell the item that had slight damage but lost $2K in the deal. My packing was actually overdone but "gorillas" must have handled it in transit. 

If it is not considered too off topic, I have a question that may be best addressed by the retired postmaster kqvkq9 although I certainly welcome comments by anyone who cares to chime in. I have a small brick and mortar sports collectible business that I have owned and operated in the same location for 28 years. Naturally, I have insurance for my business and I pay a premium for that insurance. I must repeat, I pay for the insurance for my business. I use the USPS on a daily basis shipping mostly small, First Class packages and a few Priority Mail packages that can weigh up to 20 pounds . These type packages are very easy to package safely. The values on these packages range from $10.00 to $4,000.00. My question is this...If I pay the USPS their fee, which is based on weight and distance, to deliver a package, which is their job, why must I pay them extra to "Insure" that they do the job that I just paid them to do?! This of course holds true also for UPS, FedEx etc..

Uberwaltz--
Thank you. Nobody else mentioned using the Post Office. I have made over 300 tube amps from scratch. I'm also a retired Postmaster. The amps I mailed went through the Post Office. Never an issue.
Then again, i always did double box and significantly over pack.
It's much easier to spend a little time and effort on bulletproof packingthan dealing with a long distance claim.

whenEVER possible...save original boxes & packing.
they were specifically designed for your product.
an attic, a closet, basement, shed....
i know its a hassle.
but look what OP just went thru.
but IF you drop off to be packed, take multiple pics on their counter.
with employees if you can.
pictures are free...get pics or video of the packing process.
so happy for your outcome.
best wishes.

I actually thought that sfeay made a valid point. Personal comments on forums are never necessary, and I'm not talking about sfeay. We're all hear to learn and exchange ideas. I'll never understand why disparaging remarks are ever made and are usually precursors to food fights. These things really detract from the quality of the forum, and I'm sure discourage good people from ever posting. My takeaway from the posts and my personal experience is that regardless of how well something is packaged, if it falls off a truck or is run over by a forklift, it's going to be ruined. If an individual does his own packing, and even if it is packaged  properly, more often than not, UPS will find a way to deny the claim. There is actually a  greater likelihood of collecting what they call 'insurance' if you let them pack it. Okay, supervise the packing, but make sure they are involved.

“thousands” Really?

Ok, that was an exaggeration on my part, and no I am not a dealer, perhaps I should have used the word “countless” instead.

I am a Mac owner, have been for at least 45 years and I do participate in various Mac forums, that is where I see pictures of shattered Mac face plates, too many to count or remember.

I have a pair of original Mc2205’s that I am using with a bi-amped speaker system, if I am not mistaken these were introduced back in 1977, old enough to benefit from an overall upgrade.

I always wanted to send these to Terry Dewick for an upgrade, but I am scared, even if these are shipped in a McIntosh original shipping box, I am afraid that they will not survive.

I keep all boxing from items I buy but unfortunately when you buy used the item you buy may not have its original box any longer and so gets shipped in a different box.
In that case then no you do not have the original packaging to use when /or you decide to sell.

I often get packages from mfg with g-force shock watch labels.  shockwatch.com   

@vahes  "thousands".  Really?  Are you a dealer or what circumstance would place you in a position to see that many shattered Mc amps.?

@sfseay   Do you keep the original shipping cartons of the gear you own?  I would hope so.  I don't understand not having the original boxes designed to protect the gear.  

I would NEVER allow a UPS or even FEDEX employee pack up my gear.  If really in a pinch, I would contact the manufacturer and pay them for a carton made for the equipment in question.  Most top notch companies will do so willingly and for a reasonable price.  Simple and smart.

I love the dumb comments to the OP that he should have packed the amp.  I know nothing about properly protecting heavy audio equipment and I bet neither do most of the people claiming all of us should package our heavy products ourselves.

So many “experts” on Audiogon don’t have a clue.

Unfortunately for the glass fronted mac units present rapidly deteriorating road conditions are not helping. They are VERY prone to vibration and jarring. Even if they have not been mishandled on purpose the sheer rigours of modern day ground transport can take one out.
I have had two arrive to me with shattered glass with no obvious signs of abuse to the boxing at all.

Of all amplifiers destroyed by UPS one stands out, its Macintosh, with their glass fronts I have seen thousands of shattered Mac amplifiers many were boxed with Mac's own dual boxes fastened to plywood bases to prevent any movement.
UPS has mastered the art of trashing McIntosh amplifiers, no matter how well they are boxed it is going to happen.
I do not know how McIntosh ships their new equipment to their dealers, who they use for shipping? I wonder how many reach their destination in one piece !!!!!!!!!!!

Liz -- won't help. 
you gotta make sure that package can sustain run over by 18-wheeler or better Abrams ta make sho.

I have found over the years that FedEx appear to have a much better track record with goods to and from my house and their customer service has been more friendly than ups. As a bonus at least in my area FedEx ground deliver on Sat as well whereas ups do not.

I ship all of my items either FedEx or good old USPS only. Ups do not even get quoted.

Thanks for all the responses. I think the primary reason my claim was resolved was due to  the letter my lawyer-wife sent to the owner of the franchise. I was also very lucky in that the buyer was so awesome. He was bummed about the amp, but was also really upset that it happened to me. He's still sitting around with the box and the amp, hopefully not in his living room, waiting for resolution. However, regardless of how well something is boxed, UPS will go way out of their way to deny liability, and even in my case, when they did the actual packaging. It's right on their website, if they packaged and it is damaged, they are liable.  Really, what is one supposed to do, go in to their store with a tape recorder to gather evidence in case something goes wrong. Can you imagine going into the franchise and asking them, "Do you mind me recording this conversation." But why should anyone ever have to go through the hassle of small claims court and the countless abusive phone calls between corporate UPS and the UPS franchise. What a waste of time and aggravation. We all have better things to do with our lives.

At any rate,  I'm liquidating all of my audio gear because I'm moving to Europe. I have very expensive speakers that I'm shipping to California and I'm having them crated for International shipping at the buyer's request. The buyer requested the ISPM label which I assume is a requirement for International.  My mover, Pickens-Kane uses Allied Van, and while they will crate they won't ship anything under 1000 lbs. I've spoken with Fed-Ex, and while they don't crate, they will box and inspect the crating, and if they feel the packaging is adequate they will then transport and guarantee against breakage. They have some sort of formula, in which they guarantee a dollar amount per pound. I spoke to them at length and they seem more reputable than UPS. Do you guys think Fed Ex is safe? If not what are the alternatives?

The crazy thing is that 4 months ago I sent a very expensive vintage watch for repair and used UPS. All I have to say is Thank God it wasn't damaged or lost. I don't think I would have ever recovered.

I disagree with NOT labeling as fragile etc for the simple fact I am sure it helped me save my money in my aforementioned post.
Yes some monkeys will see it as an enticement to try to damage but that is today's pathetic work ethic at play.
As far as at least giving you some credibility to say you tried to ask them to take care I think it outweighs the concerns.
Just my opinion.....

Lemme tell ya few thingies about UPS shipping.
There were 3 instances of them shipping credenza to my mom's home with UPS with original manufacturer packaging:

1st instance almost all panels damaged and box had visible puncture and drop damage -- requested replacement.

2nd instance -- replacement came-in with several panels damaged especially the base one -- requested replacement.

3rd instance very similar to 1st.

After all from 3 boxes I was able to put together one credenza.

No matter how GOOD you pack unless you pack it onto the gigantic bubble wrapped ball, the odds of successful delivery with UPS are quite low.

Most damage is caused by poor packing. For large heavy items, double boxing is important, but it’s just as important to use the proper materials. Boxes and packing materials have specifications for the intended purpose. Even double boxing with light duty supplies for a heavy item is risky. Proper packing with proper supplies should make it difficult for damage even with some rough handling. Please understand I’m not talking about something absurd like driving a forklift through the box.

As far as the "trained experts", I’m sure some do an excellent job, while others are no better than a 6 year old doing it. Just like everything else, some are professional and take pride in what they do, while others just go through the motions because they are required to do so.

Also, I think it's a bad idea to mark fragile, etc. Sure, some will try to comply with the message, but idiots are everywhere and this prompts them to do just the opposite.

FedEx isn't perfect, but I stop using UPS 10 years ago after a problem with one of their stores. I've developed a very good relationship with my local FedEx employees. They consistently go out if their way to assist me. 

@catsally1, thanks for the update. I'm glad when all is said and done you will be properly compensated :-)!

Unfortunately I have also learned the hard way that UPS, when it comes to claims for damages are not to be trusted in any way whatsoever and will actually tamper with evidence and alter the facts to avoid paying out in any way they can.
Heady claims you say, I agree but it happened to me too.
I shipped a pair of speakers from Florida to Arizona in the original speaker boxes but then also inside a pair of heavy duty bought from the UPS store golf club boxes ( these are great cheap options for shipping speakers if you do not have boxes btw!).
Now I plastered these boxes with signs I printed out and taped on along the lines of , FRAGILE, DO NOT BEND, ELECTRONICS, THIS WAY UP etc.
Now my local UPS driver is a very nice guy and when he came to pick these up from my house I asked if I could take a picture of them loaded in his truck standing up with all the packaging labels showing which he had no problem with at all.
Needless to say they arrived at the buyers looking like they had been run over by an 18 wheeler and both speakers completely wasted.Buyer sent me lots of photos and what was very interesting was that ALL of my labels were gone from both boxes, every single one.
dealing with ups claims the lady tried to insist they were not in speaker boxes despite the original speaker boxes and packaging were INSIDE the ups golf club boxes and there was NO indication of goods or fragility, seriously. I demanded to speak to a supervisor who I eventually got after 30 minutes wait and we went through it all again, at this juncture I asked for her email so I could send her the pictures of these speakers loaded onto the ups truck at my house. She asked why and as soon as I said that they showed the boxes covered with warning labels and that after destroying the boxes in transit a ups employee must have removed all labels and tried to cover their backsides she agreed to receive the pictures.
To her credit she called me back in 10 minutes, apologised and said ups will cover the full cost of the speakers insured value and refund the shipping charges.
Trust them no further than you can throw them! Get all the evidence you can, I take pictures of all my major items shipping and have done for years.