+1 @nonoise Give me stereo or give me death! Tubes all warmed up ,AC turned up, listening to remastered copy of Curtis Mayfields “Superfly”, plenty immersed here!
Immersive Audio and How to Achieve It
100% of music listeners prefer live music to recorded playback, why? A live performance "immerses" you and frees you up to move around the room, the dance floor and still be immersed. The goal posts have moved away from two speakers to an array of speakers all around as well as above you to reproduce the illusion of a LIVE performance. Why, in 2023, would anyone voluntarily use only two speakers to recreate this illusion of a live performance in a large room?
Even the artists themselves are using immersive audio in concert to WOW their audience, why not do it at home:
https://www.mixonline.com/live-sound/venues/on-the-cover-las-vegas-takes-immersive-live-part-1
134 responses Add your response
I cannot add anything to what has just been said by Hilde45 and nonoise and stuartk... I prefer stereo acoustic because it is possible to have localization even listener envelopment ( immersiveness) without compromising TIMBRE ...
Kota1 buy the BACCH filters... It is the only DSP i would buy.... Because it is the only one who preserve room acoustic and timbre and your own head/ears profile measurement...And this filter cannot affect the timbre recorded of the album, it is explained mathematically why in Dr. Choueri article... Go and read... 😊 |
A properly set up stereo system can't be beat (in my experience). What I have heard in regards to surround sound was gimmicky, at best. It was not natural sound. I've never experienced sound coming from my sides or from behind unless I was turned away or around from the source. Might as well get one of these if you want to immerse yourself:
This Disney-fying the sound is not my cup-o-tea either. All the best, |
Most music I listen to was mixed in stereo, then upmixed by my processor into another more immersive format. Stereo sounds flat compared, not bad, but flat, it lacks that "third dimension". For Atmos I think Steve Genewick did an amazing job with the Miles Davis atmos mixes and giles martin did great with the beatles remixes. Revolver sounds sooo good, it is an interesting video he did on the remix process as well. Also I like the tracks that are being dropped mixed natively in atmos, not just remixed. I get an e-mail from dolby about new drops every few weeks. Giles Martin on the Revolver atmos remix:
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The best surround sound mixes I like are generally but not always good stereo mixes often they have extra dry vocals in the center than wetter vocals in L, R. The other instruments using the speakers to create points near the front and sides. If surround is used too much it brings attention to its self and looses flow. Surround can be much better than stereo but that is surprisingly rare. There will be a time when you’ll be able to set the acoustics, channels and everything else where you want it if you want to A I is about to change everything. I think Dolby Atmos will be a memory in about 3 or 4 years. |
Da Vinci used to teach his students the skill of "seeing in" to a scene, even if it was a stucco wall -- so they could lose themselves in it and then release their imagination's free play capacities. When I think of the requirements for "immersive" experience, I think of tonal and timbral accuracy -- an oboe sounding like an oboe. The notion that the gear must push me into immersion seems like a way of releasing myself from the necessary mental skill which Da Vinci was trying to teach his students. It's a way of game-ifying and Disney-fying the sound. |
First, your reply is very welcomed, thanks. Next, I am just a consumer with preferences, like everyone else. Now, you got a dog in the race so if anything, feel free to take this discussion down 30% and I’m happy to engage. As for 100% this or that, let me state it like this. 100% of the time I can tell the difference between a live orchestra and a recording of an orchestra as well as most people on the planet (maybe not 100% but close). Your point is well taken and I will tone down the usage of absolute anything. Now, you have the luxury of using a personally curated immersive playback system with actual master tapes that "most" (I avoided the use of 100% of us, I’m learning) will never have access to. I’m in, what will help pioneers and engineers like you perpetuate a helpful image of immersive audio? |
@kota1 100% of people don't prefer anything, I don't care if it's chocolate over nuts or sex over being alone, and I certainly don't prefer live music to being in my studio. your approach is not good for the format that you're trying to be good for, please turn it down like 30%
people like you perpetuate the image that this format is for overly excited idiots who don't understand stereo
people like me, are working hard to learn and educate engineers to make better work, so that beating the stereo in headphones and having a great speakers experience is the expected standard
we are not there, yet, and your enthusiasm is not helping, it's just getting in the way
thank you |
Will the listener be put in the position of a listener in the audience, will the listener be put in the position of hearing direct and acoustic sound that is in the mind of the musician and producer When they were recording the London Symphony Orchestra they miked it and positioned the objects so the listener was positioned at the conductors stand! Listen to how Brian Eno discusses about how he uses his intentions to place the listener in space, about 3:00 mark:
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In fact, some of the best recordings available are only minimally processed. I agree, too bad it isn't the standard though.... https://www.cnet.com/culture/compression-is-killing-your-music/ |
Is the difference between us that I view immersion more in terms of the capacity of the listener while you seem to view the listener more as a passive factor, with technology facilitating immersion? Yes, I am focused on the tech side in this thread, buying a single pair of speakers for $$$$ is the costliest, least effective way to achieve an immersive experience or "a suspension of disbelief". The room is more important than the equipment so that means room treatments and some type of tech to measure and possibly use DSP. Finally to have two sources, one for channel based audio and one for object based audio. My guess is less than 50% of the members here have experienced high end object based audio in a properly setup room. that people can only perceive and appreciate art when it’s turned into an IMAX experience. There is a lot of truth to that statement, and not just IMAX size screens. The members here have some incredibly luxurious systems and rooms. It is a matter of preference I guess.
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Great post... There is some truth in the idea and experience of kota1, but stereo system with no DSP and and dsp for home theater and multichannels are TWO world,..Then there is another sort of truth in stereo system... Accoustic for small stereo room is one thing , and home theater another one...
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Listener envelopment is a rigorous acoustic concept abbreviated by LV and the apparent source width abbreviated by ASW is also a rigorous acoustic concept ...
«The auditory system has mechanisms that separate the processing of late reverberation from the processing of direct sound and early reflections referred to as precedence effect. While the late reverberation contributes to the perception of listener envelopment and reverberance, the direct sound and the early reflections mostly affect source localization, intimacy and the apparent source width.[3] The balance of early and late arriving sound affects the perceived clarity, warmth and brilliance. » Wiki Now in a small room or in vas hall acoustic there is means and acoustic design and tools to create IMMERSIVENESS which is the result of the right balance LV/ASW ... I created it in my small room but not with only material passive treatment but i needed active mechanical one : aqn oriented grid of tuned Hemholtzs resonators around speakers and my listening position... It was stereo on steroid as if i had many speakers... The recording trade 0ff of each musical album was plain to hear and astoundingly different between all albums.. All recording were interesting even the bad recording because the speakers/room revealed the recording engineer choices... I lost my acoustic room selling my house, i was sad... I discovered the only headphone i can modify for my acoustic needs and now i came back here with an headphone system... An immersive one for an headphone without the BACCH filters or no dSP associated like the Smyth realizer... The K340 is among the few the best designed headphones ever... |
I watched the video. Is the difference between us that I view immersion more in terms of the capacity of the listener while you seem to view the listener more as a passive factor, with technology facilitating immersion? Or perhaps we define immersion differently. I don’t need to have my walls "painted with sound" in order to experience what I describe as immersion. This sounds like a remedy for people’s senses having become dulled. If one is esthetically sensitive by nature, as I am, and has experienced making music, as I have, there is no need for any "added stimulation". I’m reminded of a current local Van Gogh exhibit I read about, which incorporates blowing up and projecting his paintings onto museum walls, so people can "walk through them". As a life-long art lover and someone who's been involved in drawing, printmaking and photography, this strikes me as very odd -- that people can only perceive and appreciate art when it’s turned into an IMAX experience.
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Someday soon AI will fill in the acoustics, but then there will still be many variables in the original recording that the listener will have to understand. Will the listener be put in the position of a listener in the audience, will the listener be put in the position of hearing direct and acoustic sound that is in the mind of the musician and producer, will the listener hear something totally apart from the experience in reality like sounds coming from every direction. I played in orchestras and jazz bands and sometimes it was wonderful hearing the instruments around me but that is a unique position that no one records for. Ultimately immersive sound is a moving target.
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I really do enjoy my Innuos server & it’s so fun dialing up virtually anything I want on Qobuz. Fantastic technology! +1, agreed, I’m not stuck in my old ways but also not on highly processed, multi channel sound for home music listening. But ALL studio recordings are HIGHLY processed: https://www.avid.com/pro-tools Would you like sauce with that? It is a question of WHAT type of processing you prefer, please see:
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Everyone needs some “new & different” to sell more equipment & more music sources ( this is often for convenience). I get it, it’s called business.. The really good turntables & R2R decks, virtually 100 year old technology, are still thee best, most natural sources for recorded music but can get pricey. I really do enjoy my Innuos server & it’s so fun dialing up virtually anything I want on Qobuz. Fantastic technology! I’m not stuck in my old ways but also not on highly processed, multi channel sound for home music listening. |
For movies / home theater, I get multiple channels immersing you in sound. I saw the new Mission Impossible last night. Pretty good overall as usual w/ bullets flying all around, car chases, moving trains etc sound on many channels all over the place is fun & makes sense. None of that is true for watching live music. The stage & performers don’t move & neither does the audience. |
Thank you, Kota, for the nice words regarding my system. Yes, the walls. They are due for treatment next. You don’t see it in the pics, but there is a nice thick area rug just in front, and a very large over-stuffed corduroy sectional 9’ from the system which absorbs a lot of the reflections. Sounds good in there most of the time (unless the music or movie is bad!). I realize some artists have wide-ranging ideas on how to present their music, but keep in mind most musicians care little about what we audiophiles (yes, I called myself that—yikes!), care about in sound reproduction. They just want to make music. It’s not unusual to hear stories of brilliant classical musicians, for instance, who play music at home on boom boxes. They are not always the best choice to ask how to setup sound in a room or hall. For me, immersion is an emotional, psychological, if you will, experience of musical art being carried by sound waves. Not the other way around. The art comes first, and it can come in 2 or 3 or a thousand dimensions. As long as its good (to me). But right-on to you for seeking the best sound you can. |
Immersive audio is NOT the same as immersive acoustic... True dat, most receivers and processors use some type of DSP to help with the acoustics. Immersiveness in PHYSICAL acoustic is created by passive material treatment and active mechanical control of the room... Yep, I agree 100%. In digital audio of home theater for music theater the main point is NOT PRESERVING the physical recorded experience of a specific non amplified musical instrument , which reflect the trade-off choices of the recording engineer IN A CLOSED ACOUSTIC SPACE , the main point with home theater music experience in is rrecreating the general atmosphere of AMPLIFIED instruments ... This is where the room acoustics come into play. There is a blueray concert by Kraftwerk recorded in Atmos and 3D video. It is the most lifelike recording I have ever heard in my room when played at reference levels. I think because the amplified instruments are easier to reproduce (mainly synthesizers). When I play back solo piano I like minimal use of height channels, more use of wide channels and room acoustics help recreate the sound of the hall or studio the piano was recorded in.
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A really good, two channel home system can .reproduce a large, deep, detailed soundstage w/ great dynamics & sound better than most live venues. I don’t disagree, but I don’t think I would ever confuse a recorded playback on any system for a live performance of am orchestra. More speakers & electronics etc is just more, not necessarily better. Yep, more speakers also means more ways to screw it up, but you can screw up a stereo too. I found that although the Dolby specs for speaker setup are meticulous they were still not right for my room. Their diagram has the MLP toward the back of the room, equidistant between front and back walls worked better for me. Here are dolby’s specs:
This model where the MLP is equidistant was night and day better for my room:
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@brianlucey Wrote:
I agree! 😎 Mike |
Immersive audio is NOT the same as immersive acoustic... Immersive audio use DSP generally without psycho-acoustic measures of the inner ears and HRTF. ... ( save for example the Smyth realizer) Immersiveness in PHYSICAL acoustic is created by passive material treatment and active mechanical control of the room... Immersiveness in psycho-acoustic use measures of the inner ears and also Head-related transfer functions (HRTFs) describe the filtering of the acoustic field produced by a sound source arriving at the listener’s ear. It is used in smyth realizer but at a more sophisticated level by BACCH filters...
Many audiophile are more interested by stereo system able to give a REALISTIC natural timbre instruments experience than interested by DSP as such ... They will use physical acoustic and psycho-acoustic measures to create acoustic immersiveness not mere audio immersivenes or dsp immersiveness as with many more speakers than two ... The only DSP preserving the integrity of the timbre natural experience , and the only dedicated audiophile one is Dr. Choueri BACCH filters... Without the BACCH filters and without psycho-acoustic measures we can create a relative partially convincing immersive stereo experience with passive acoustic treatment and active mechanical control of the room... But BACCH filters are a DSP perfect control of the room without distorting the timbre , the only one preserving timbre quality from the acoustic original recording conditions...Other DSP can create immersiveness artificially but loosing integrity of the original acoustic timbre recorded experience in various degree ... Immersiveness from a living show with amplified music as in pop and rock is not the same as immersiveness in a concerrt hall with non amplified instruments as the recording engineer proposed his set of acoustic microphones trade-off ...
Then stereo and home theater DSP are two different experience , in these two we can experience a form of immersiveness... One is digitally driven , the other serve and emerge from mechanical acoustic and/or from a set of specficic psycho-acoustic measures for EACH listener ... It is my limited understanding... 😊 In digital audio of home theater for music theater the main point is NOT PRESERVING the physical recorded experience of a specific non amplified musical instrument , which reflect the trade-off choices of the recording engineer IN A CLOSED ACOUSTIC SPACE , the main point with home theater music experience in is rrecreating the general atmosphere of AMPLIFIED instruments ... A live concert of pop in open air on an outdoor scene with big speakers is not the recording of an organ concert or a piano concert in a church or in a small studio ... |
I think the premise of this discourse is flawed. Live venues attempt to create balanced & even sound throughout the venue for as many people as possible which is why the line array was developed & generally works pretty well. The digital amps used for these are designed for huge power, low Heat production & durability w/ actual sound quality an after thought at least at he standards most here expect although this is a different subject. Most of these set ups sound, hard, harsh, & very fatiguing in my experience. A really good, two channel home system can .reproduce a large, deep, detailed soundstage w/ great dynamics & sound better than most live venues at least fior amplified music. Maybe a sub is required to really do the job for some speakers & systems. More speakers & electronics etc is just more, not necessarily better.
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I’m going to go way out on a limb here and say that 100% of the membership of this group enjoys (quality) music. Live music. Reproduced music in our listening rooms. Showers. In our vehicles during our commutes. On the water. Under the water. In the air. Alone. With friends. Outdoors. I’d also like to submit that we don’t enjoy live venues where the music is (literally) painful, or the acoustics and/or persons running the sound board present a sound environment where the energy of reflected sound exceeds the energy of the direct sound. Or, bad recordings at home. Or, blown tweeters. Or, when the neighbor’s idea of an "outdoor musical experience" ioverpowers our concept of an "outdoor musical experience" at our home. Or, when someone pulls up next to us at a traffic light and the low bass energy shakes OUR rearview mirror. "Immersive sound" is a marketing term that begin a few decades ago back when I was a peddler of audio/video gear. It attempted to "sell" the concept that if you bought an <insert brand/model> that the experience would be so up close and personally that it would be literally indistinguishable from being in the hot tub with your all-time favorite recording artist/pinup. I sold lots of "immersive" systems in the day. When it comes to enjoying music at home, I prefer the phrase "suspension of disbelief", which is to say that for some moment in time, you cease to believe that you listening to arificially created prerecorded material, and are, in fact, IN the music venue WITH the performers. The number of channels required to pull this off is debatable. Some suggest that 2 channels is the "correct" number. Some say more. In my world, "immersive" translates to: - at home - room temperature, volume, sweet spot, music, and number of guests selected by me - dog at, or near, feet - beverage (hot or cold) (boring, or otherwise) - fully resonating with the performance where 99.9% of what’s left of my brain is engaged with what is happening sonically in the space My wife and I enjoy live music as well. We attended Moondance Jam, a live music festival in Walker, Minnesota a few years ago and camped out in our(small) motorhome. It was a blast. Interacting with people made the event what is was. Expecially "meeting" the attractive young lady who forgot to lock the door on the Port-a-Potty. The sound was generally awful, about 10db over my preferred listening level for live music. We, literally, went back to the motorhome at one point, opened the windows, sit at the dinette table, broke out some wine and listened to the performance there. Joan Jett’s crew managed to get the sound right. Others, not so much. Okay, it’s time to immerse myself in some oatmeal, and buttered toast. Afterwards, my goal is to suspend the disbelief that I’m an old guy when I take one of my hot rods out for a drive. |
@kota1 I’m familiar with immersive audio, I guess I should have been more clear, I’m not knocking it, binaural, 5.1 surround or other ways people are trying to change the traditional home audio listening experience. As an audiophile, I just prefer stereo and all that brings to the table. |
Great system, are those auralex panels? I had great results with auralex. The quality of the sound is more important in hi-end audio. I agree, this doesn't need to be an either/or binary decision. With an immersive system you can use as many speakers as you want, from 2 to 22, depending on the song and the recording to get the quality you want. Atmos is backward compatible, object oriented audio. Its not channel based, but will still play back on two speakers. The vast majority of the tracks I play are mixed in stereo and I upmix them. |
I would like to experiment with a true Atmos setup. However I have a drop ceiling There are advantages to using front and rear height channels, mounted high on the wall, see the pic of my system or the pic above of abbey road studios. They are easy to wall mount but I chose tall stands because active speakers are heavy. See: https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-elevation And I might sell the house in a couple of years as we downsize Those prime elevation speakers are wall mounted, no drilling holes in the ceiling. I recommend you look at the Onkyo RZ50 receiver, I use Onkyo in the mancave (which also has a drop ceiling, I wall mounted the height channels)
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I agree you can have good or bad recordings in immersive audio. The processor or receiver has controls that allow you to select two channel, or upmix to any of several selections (Dolby Surround, DTS Neural or Neo-X, Audyssey DSX, Auro-3D, etc). You can tailor the song to your room. As for the band being in front of you the engineers refer to this as the artists intent and try and reproduce it. There are many artists that discuss this on Dolby’s channel like:
BTW, your system looks amazing, why the bare walls though? Room treatments?
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Agree. The live/original music is always better than the reproduced audio music.
The immersive sound is a surround sound term and means you are in the action. The immersive sound is more effect than the quality of the sound. The live music or the original music is not always immersive. The purpose of hi-end audio is being able to faithfully reproduce the original music. The hi-end audio aims for more realistic reproduced sound than un-real wrapping around sound. The live music or the original music is not always immersive. The quality of the sound is more important in hi-end audio.
Yes. Everyone prefers a live performance (real live music) over the reproduced audio music. The original music is always cleanest, smoothest, and the most musical. However, we can't be in live performance always. So, we listen recordings (reproduction audio). Alex/Wavetouch |
My second system is a traditional 5.1 surround sound. It wouldn’t meet the criteria for immersive by today’s standards, I guess. I would like to experiment with a true Atmos setup. However I have a drop ceiling and I just can’t see using ceiling speakers at this relatively low height, and I would need a new processor or AVR. And I might sell the house in a couple of years as we downsize, and I just can’t see investing in a system that may have a short lifespan. However I root those of you who do so on. I also disagree with the premise in the OPs first paragraph. I choose my seats at the Chicago Symphony with care and could care less about moving around and dancing |
I can appreciate what you’re driving at: the sensation of sound from everywhere is enticing. However, I think you’ve mistaken the intent of such systems. Surround isn’t necessarily to immerse or envelope, or engulf a listener. The original, (and I believe still), intent was to recreate the sounds projected from a scene consisting of elements that are placed in areas requiring those sound signatures (AKA, a helicopter fly-over, or a fast-approaching car coming up from the rear. But as for music, the band, orchestra, fiddle player, torch singer, is IN FRONT of you. Roger Waters may love hearing his guitar reverberate around the room, but that is a sound effect that doesn’t require Atmos, just walls and ceilings in a good hall, or room. Finally, I feel “immersed” in music that is well-produced, and frankly, which engages me. All the sonic tricks in the book, including floating drum kits and saxophones on the ceiling, can’t make me like bad music. I have a 7.2 SOTA system for films and TV. But my jewel is my (near) SOTA 2.2 stereo music system. I’ll leave it at that. |
@kota1 A. I have 50 ch of analog processing and that is NOT an analog immersive setup. B. There is no contest between stereo and atmos/spatial, they are parallel deliverables, so please leave me out of your agenda :) My stereo speakers are Evolution Acoustics MM3 w Exact filters, Crane Song Avocet monitor controller, Bricasti M1 SE DA, Allnic Audio A-6000 monos. I am all about stereo. Those things are integrated into a 7.1.4 room with more Evolution Acoustics Micro Ones, more M1SE and Parasound A51 x 2. I would not do 7.1.4 without Trinnov. |
You can get this incredible 13 speaker, 7.2.4 active setup from Focal for about the same price as two of their more luxurious passive tower speakers (where you provide the amps). All you need are stands and balanced cables, save your scratch from buying amps and speaker cables and put it toward a processor and room treatments. Check out the back of speakers too, plate amps give you incredible controls to match the speaker to the room: |
