What is "immersiveness" in audio experience ?

The relation between music and sound remind me of the metaphor between day to day consciousness and awakening through the revelation of meaning becoming ONE with  the gesture of listening...

Acoustic gesture ( listening)  can be flowing as Tai chi...

I will now tell a tale , a true story, about the power of music...

Stalin killed probably most people in the earth history with Mao...

He treated his family the same way he treated stanger and kill them or abandon them...

In this "beast" humanity is there too, but so deep down, no event could awake it...

But through history we know of one event which awake him to "meaning" ...To the presence of "meaning"...

Maria Yudina played a Mozart concerto one time for the radio when Stalin was listening... Stalin loved it so much he ordered to have the vinyl album right now...Now one dare to say no to Stalin ... The concert was not recorded but a live one only ... Then in the night Yudina played it a second time for the engineers to record it at fearful speed, changing even of maestro, because the first one was sick by fear... And guess what? After listening in ectasy the album so speedily made in urgency , Stalin offered big amount of money to Yudina... One of the greatest pianist of all time, and a completely fearless woman because of his absolute faith, she declined the money for herself but accept it for his church ONLY, knowing that Stalin emprisonned popes and destructed as many hundred of churches as possible in all Russia... Think about that : she then refuse the money for himself, and adding to the insult said why : to give it to the church, even if she lived in abject poverty and said to the dictator that she will pray God for his crimes instead... Wow!

Textually i quote from a video : "Thank you for your aid. I will pray day and night and ask the Great Lord to forgive you your great sins. The Lord is merciful and He will forgive you".

Extraordinarily, Stalin did not put her on execution or on Solovki island in the artic circle, as he did for EVERYONE else who dare to accuse him even all those who do not go with him without any reserve ... No one ever say anything about God being in command over him... Even Shostakovitch was sleeping waiting death with a suitcase ready each night, and never dare to say a negative word against Stalin till Stalin death, as Yudina the fearless pianist said it loud to Stalin in his face on telephone line...

Guess what ? Some 10 years after Stalin was discovered after 2 days alone in his room dying alone from a long agonising illness, because everybody feared him too much to dare to open the door without permission to see if everything was all right , especially uninvited doctors...On his table near his bed some vinyl album was found turning for hours or all day making the recognizing noise "click" without had been stop by no one for hours and hours after Stalin death : it was the Mozart same album, a unique album with only one copy the concerto no 23 especially recorded in one night for him by Yudina who played it two times in a row one in the evening and one in the night......

Stalin the beast knowing that his death was near listened to one of the rare meaningful experience in his life, pure emotion driven by light, the Mozart adagio is no more a sound experience here, but only meaning, than the question of "interpretation value" about Yudina playing lost all meaning... Yudina cannot be faulted because she forgot long ago how to play "well" ti impress people, she always played as if she pray, dying to go to the light...

Imagine the unmovable bravery of this woman... And in Russian pianist school she is beside, not under, Neuhaus, Sofronitsky, Scriabin, and the others giants ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdJtR6HNRQ4

If you will permit me to comment on something delicate. This is just my opinion and maybe I am wrong but...this is a lot to take in.

If you want to start a discussion, I suggest shorter posts with a clear focus or two and a question. Then, let other people add their comments before you comment further.

If you just want to use Audiogon as a place to publish your thoughts, you can do that, but you won't likely get a lot of replies. 

Again, just my experience.

For sure you are right as always...

But i had the habit sometimes to spoke as if i was speaking to a friend, giving my most intimate thoughts instead of writing for a public crowd...

You are right for sure...

I apologize then for being "selfish" and forgetting that this is a public space...

But my goal was to give to someone, at least one, my thought and waiting for his reply and thoughts, and i received one already  by private mail, because it is a also "delicate" subject the way i described it... Then reaching at least a friend and reading his interesting answer my thread can die, if no one else dare to answer by his personal experience ....

As i said i came back here because i love people and sometimes i forgot that it is a public space, not a private space at my disposal for sure...

+1 @hilde45

less is more

more is less -- much much less in this case

I am the first who said so after Hilde45 post...That he was right...

But the content of a post is more interesting , if there is a content, than the number of words in the post as suggested by the second poster here ...Anyone is free to read or not my thread anyway ...

i think that i proposed a content to discuss...an "acoustical" precise content, a "musical" content and an interesting revelatory historical story which goes with it ...

Now criticizing my long post goes nowhere , each one of us has his individuality, right or wrong...

And i am in the habit here most of the times to criticize content, not people for the sake of criticizing them ...

And it takes very good reason to criticize a thread started by someone in good faith ...

Hilde45 critic is right... My text is not ideally suited to appeal the crowd here...

But suggesting that my opening thread is too long and that i must "shorten " it is not acceptable for me as OP...

Because there is a content dificult to explain and a complex content to allude to in the objective acoustic dimension and in the subjective experience ......

I am interested by posters who will be able to communicate their own thoughts about this complex matter ...

But for sure many people are not used to face complex problems, i then apologize if my thread ask for their brain to work too hard...But they can pass over it .. 😁

I understand what you are going for here. From my experience I would go at it from a different direction. To me poor rhythm and pace is the major factor that prevents immersion. You can have incredibly holography without immersion. So, for me, the thing that really draws me in is the musicality… so, for me Audio Research and Sonus Faber versus Rowland and Wilson for instance. Then add on top of that add good imaging and other characteristics.

Interesting observation and experience...

A system is musical or not first as "timbre" experience...If the system give too much bad distortion , no immersiveness for sure...

Add to that an unnatural, or artificial timbre rendition no immersiveness for sure...

Musicality is related for me to timbre experience and the subtle hues and perceived "colors" of the different instruments alone or together...

But i forgot DYNAMIC... You are right... ( because it is impossible to have good timbre without good dynamic anyway)

But once we have a minimal musicality and a good dynamic , which i supposed as already granted in my opening thread, saying that immersiveness "implicate also that the timbre experience is right to begin with , that the distortion rate is low already and that these two factors are already settled," then the immersiveness factor for me is defined by the 3 qualities related in a balanced way inside the soundfield experience: Imaging differentiation, soundstaging variable dimensions and holographical VOLUME content...But without "rythm and pace" and optimal dynamic in the incoming of sound we cannot have immersiveness...

The reason i forgot to specify dynamic as " rythm and pace" is that timbre rendition cannot be good or optimal without good dynamic from the system...

In the definition of timbre the " time envelope" and the transients and the onset of the sound are some factors even in the acoustic definition of timbre... Then i was supposing all that...

Then musicality and dynamics you are very right are mandatory for experiencing immersiveness... But i think that we need more to achieve it completely...

But you are right also in an another way, a deeper way , we are all different and pure musicality is enough for many people to reach immersiveness, or simply rythm and pace and more the dynamical aspects...

Then your post remind me that our different audio history is an important factor... I forgot that...

Anyway "immersiveness" is related to this three aspects of the soundfield which anyway cannot exist at all optimally in an audio system unable to give first natural timbre experience, musicality and dynamic for sure... But musicality of timbre as distorsion level and dynamic are as electrical factors relating to the component than purely acoustic one... And i was thinking more about acoustic... it was necessary to add your observation for adding all factors and all our listeners differences...

Thanks for this wise and useful and necessary observation...

My very best....

I understand what you are going for here. From my experience I would go at it from a different direction. To me poor rhythm and pace is the major factor that prevents immersion. You can have incredibly holography without immersion. So, for me, the thing that really draws me in is the musicality… so, for me Audio Research and Sonus Faber versus Rowland and Wilson for instance.

For what it’s worth -- I don’t care how long your posts are. You can do what you want.

My advice is only relevant to you if you want more people to read and consider what you say. If you don’t mind that most people will skip your post and that allows you to write what you want, go ahead.

There’s no "right" or "wrong" here. It’s a question of whether you want to have more people in conversation or if you don’t mind people ignoring you. In case you care, I will ignore posts that are long and hard to follow. But you may not care! That's ok. Up to you. Be well.

Hilde 45 i adressed the short post of the second poster....

Not your good will and well intentionated post...

I already said that you were right...I even apologize to be centered on my own "investigation" and a bit heavy to read...

I dont want to push you out of this thread because you always are rational and interesting...

You never say that my post was "too long"... The other poster did perhaps only joking... But i am sensitive to truth and i dont like irrational not founded in truth criticism... And as a third poster astute observation revealed soon after this second poster joke or ad hominem criticism, in my apparently "too short" now introducting post, i forgot to eloaborate about dynamic and musicality as conditions for "immersiveness" ... Proof that my introducting post was too short and lacking in precision because i was supposing that timbre c experience imply them, it imply them but not completely as very well described by ghdprentice useful  post ...Thanks to him  it is corrected and open now to a deeper discussion...I forgot that our own history and perception differ a lot for sure...

In the opposite your critic was right from the beginning and on good faith i take it as such if i may repeat what i already said ... ...But when someone say that a post contains too much words it is meaningless criticism with no arguments or ad hominem one ...Or a joke...

Anyway this thread is about complex problems ...

My very best to you...

For what it’s worth -- I don’t care how long your posts are. You can do what you want.

My advice is only relevant to you if you want more people to read and consider what you say. If you don’t mind that most people will skip your post and that allows you to write what you want, go ahead.

There’s no "right" or "wrong" here. It’s a question of whether you want to have more people in conversation or if you don’t mind people ignoring you. In case you care, I will ignore posts that are long and hard to follow. But you may not care! That’s ok. Up to you. Be well.

And...I'm out.

And...I’m out.

I thought that your advice was a good will advice... I accept it graciously with even apology because your point was right ...

But when we discuss deep audio matters or complex subject, we do not wrote short 2 lines and anyway i never create a thread to increase my public exposition to crowd...

I waited for your impressions about "immersiveness"...But you were not even "in" it seems ecven after my apology and now for NO REASON you angrily wrote "i am out"...Put yourself in my shoes when beginning a thread of your OWN... And think about your LAST reaction...

The other poster push my button with a sarcatic remark...Instead of adressing the matter...

And i do not understand WHY you take my post toward him personal ESPECIALLY after i gave you my approbation sincerely for your first post ...

I was adressing an answer to the other poster SARCASM aiming to me personally...

It seems THEN for some, audio matter, so interesting the question may be, import less than grudges or patronizing other ...

Sorry but i am polite with people but i answer ALL sarcasm aimed at me personnally especially in a thread of mine with a very deep subject which matter for me and for some others ...

Are you not supposed to be a PHILOSOPHER?

Then help other with the concept of immersiveness instead of reacting now as a child...

 

6,148 posts

06-06-2023 at 11:33am

+1 @hilde45

less is more

more is less -- much much less in this case

 

Ghdprentice make a good point...

We all came to audio and go through it with different perspective...

In my experience, to have dynamic right, to have "pace and rythm" optimal, and to have "timbre" perception right, all that go together in a dedicated room ...For headphone it is not so straightforward... As i said i think it is not possible to have a beautiful natural timbre experience without good dynamic from the speakers" room...But for headphone it is different... For example the bass perception and dynamic of my SR-5 Stax gold gave a sublime timbre but was not on par in bass and dynamic with the Hifiman HE 400...Headphone are not speakers/ room...

 ghdprentice awake me to something i did not thought of beginning my thread : we all come with our own history and musical taste even if acoustic concept did not change...And headphone are not speakers when we experience them...

And for sure someone coming from jazz or rock mainly or from classical music, will not optimize at first his audio system with  the same set of ordered  priorities and  acoustic factors ...For example in my room i never prioritize bass depth... My speakers never go under 50 hertz...

But i realized what i missed with heaphone able to go 30 hertz with clarity... 😊

But at the end the question which emerge is how my audio system disapear

letting music be...It is an acoustic and psycho-acoustic precise question, and it is called immersiveness...

i will wait for others experiences and opinions..

I stumbled on an interesting video which is for headphone but can be applied for speakers it is about the way to assess basic qualities of headphones, but the same tree of concepts apply for speakers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DseAu4LPPWQ&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_A5BFgnV1w5wNNfnks3u0oL&index=51&t=6s

Sound being immersive is an important, even vital trait - depending I guess on the aspect of it one may prioritize or define it as being. Indeed, immersive can be many things, like spanning a contrast range as that which envelopes the listener in a "wash" of sound that takes hold of the experience in its sheer fullness and uninhibited presence, while incorporating moments of intricacies that are more quiet and intimate in nature. Moving closer to a live symphony orchestra can aid an immersive feel, though not at the cost of the whole of the experience (i.e.: sitting too close) - the holistic aspect. It’s a balance, and one I try to live by and apply via my home stereo sitting just on the edge of the radiation bubble. Immersive is about a wide frequency span and being able to use most of the audible spectrum here low and high with full dynamic envelope. It’s as well and not least about size of the sonic presentation, not meant as a "fluffy" spatial image produced by a smaller speaker or one potentially without substance from a panel ditto, but rather one in actual correspondence with the size of the radiation area and overall height of a pair of large, preferably horn-loaded speakers. It’s about bass that can fill the entire listening space effortlessly like a floating, almost liquid presence that just exists/happens - at any desired SPL. It’s about having a coherent sphere of sound that makes the elements of all this come together. As such I find immersive to be a core trait in audio reproduction, and one that’s wholly essential for sound to appear less of a facsimile.

Thanks very much for this well written post very well describing what i alluded to in more abstract and less convincing way about immersiveness... English is not my first language...

And yes immersiveness is not only a felt subjective impression but also an objective concept in acoustic and we even had some parameters and science articles teaching us how to reach it in a small room at the times of my listening acoustic room experiments ..

But as i said i lost my dedicated acoustic room...One year ago...

I happily succeeded to recreate immersiveness with headphone which is way more difficult than with speakers in a dedicated room... But i was lucky with the right headphone and the right but long 6 months optimization process necessary for it...

Sound being immersive is an important, even vital trait - depending I guess on the aspect of it one may prioritize or define it as being. Indeed, immersive can be many things, like spanning a contrast range as that which envelopes the listener in a "wash" of sound that takes hold of the experience in its sheer fullness and uninhibited presence, while incorporating moments of intricacies that are more quiet and intimate in nature. Moving closer to a live symphony orchestra can aid an immersive feel, though not at the cost of the whole of the experience (i.e.: sitting too close) - the holistic aspect. It’s a balance, and one I try to live by and apply via my home stereo sitting just on the edge of the radiation bubble. Immersive is about a wide frequency span and being able to use most of the audible spectrum here low and high with full dynamic envelope. It’s as well and not least about size of the sonic presentation, not meant as a "fluffy" spatial image produced by a smaller speaker or one potentially without substance from a panel ditto, but rather one in actual correspondence with the size of the radiation area and overall height of a pair of large, preferably horn-loaded speakers. It’s about bass that can fill the entire listening space effortlessly like a floating, almost liquid presence that just exists/happens - at any desired SPL. It’s about having a coherent sphere of sound that makes the elements of all this come together. As such I find immersive to be a core trait in audio reproduction, and one that’s wholly essential for sound to appear less of a facsimile.