@kennyc
This seems like a discussion between a surround sound system vs 2 channel.
Well it sounds that way, but not. Surround sound never stuck, DVD-A, SACD, never caught on and while better than redbook, SACD or DVD-A were more expensive than CD’s and most of the content was simply stereo recordings that were converted. It was also channel based.Atmos is object based, it sounds different than surround sound. Here is a video by engineer Steve Genewick from Capitol Studios that breaks it down. Steve has mixed tons of 2 channel stuff too:
https://youtu.be/5x0sK-8dofA
Usually, the sonic quality of 2 channel speakers are significantly better than the surround transducers.
If you are talking dipoles yes, I agree. You have a good point too, if your speaker/amp budget is $25K do you divide it among two speakers and one two channel amp? You can get a killer stereo with that budget. Or, do you get a killer atmos setup like the one I link to below that can do reference level channel based audio AND MCH object based audio:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ImmersiveSysF--focal-7.14-immersive-audio-studio-monitor-system
For video surround, I’m going to try the Nakamishi Dragon 11.4.6
I think that’s fantastic, congrats! Atmos music will work with that setup.
I consider video surround sound system (immersion from multiple speakers) a different goal separate from my 2 channel system (fidelity).
I get that, I wasn’t convinced my surround processor could deliver great stereo until I did a side by side comparison with a reference level two channel preamp. Marantz rocks for my taste and budget on both atmos and stereo with my processor.
On a side note most of us has spent considerable time, effort, deliberation, and resources to get to where we are today.
You left out MONEY! Big money, into five figures, some members into six figures. This is where I see the fork in the road. Spending BIG money on a system that is only capable of channel based audio in 2023 is fine if you are NEVER going to be capable of trying new tech. I get that and I see the temples of audio in the virtual system area and when you got a six figure stereo, you are "good enough".
I am not in that camp. I am in the camp that a good system can play music or movies, channel or object based audio, has LOT’s of available content on streaming services (atmos music is exploding in this regard thanks to Apple spatial audio), and is simple enough to use a kid can do it (Alexa, play Miles Davis in Dolby Atmos on Tidal, done).
Very importantly, relative to 2 channel music, there is a very limited amount of audiophile level multichannel content available- perhaps I should have started with this.
I have amazing news, all you need is atmos capable headphones to start, the content is quick, easy, and available on apple music or tidal.
See:
https://www.dolby.com/experience/headphones/
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@mahgister
immersiveness is the second key acoustic concepts
The immersive community recognizes this and today even budget level immersive receivers have dsp features built in to help address the acoustics (audyssey, dirac,ARC, etc). Your $$$$ two channel preamps simply ignore this valuable feature.
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@cleeds
You might be surprised to learn that many of the sonically best music venues have no dance floor at all.
Would you concede that the best performance spaces address acoustics?
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My goal is to retrieve the original set of acoustic trade-off used by the recording engineers in my acoustic room or with my headphone...
That is how I started my acoustic journey, I e-mailed the Dubstage studio and asked how could I recreate the acoustic space of a mixstage in my media room. Owner Marti Humphrey asked for photos, sent his reply and cced Wilfreid Van Balien of Galaxy Studios who chimed in. With a little helpful coaching from Anthony Grimani who also gave me feedback the end result was exactly the type of acoustic I hoped to achieve for my room and budget.
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@mijostyn
You were sharing how you achieved an immersive experience with two speakers in another thread, can you explain more please?
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@ghdprentice
You have one of the nicest and most expensive two channel setups I have seen in the virtual systems area and have yet to embrace a far less expensive approach using atmos/spatial audio, to achieve the immersive end result, why?
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@fleschler
After all of the years and dedication to two channel why are you STILL searching for an end game speaker you can afford? Why haven’t you hit this goal years (or decades) ago? I was fortunate to have stumbled across the Sunfire Theater Grand 3 processor which incorporated what Bob Carver called "side axis" or wide channels. They solved the soundstage issue for me in 2002 and I never looked back, still using wide channels today. The only issue I have with Dolby's layout below is the MLP is too far back, I prefer equidistant between front and back walls:
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An acoustically well treated room + an immersive audio setup like in the dolby layout above + an itunes or Tidal subscription=
"It sounds like you are in the studio with Miles and the band"
At :20 in the video from the remixing session of Miles Davis Kind of Blue live at Capitol Studios:
https://youtu.be/FU5-ZdprCrc
1:10 in the video:
If you really love music, this is the way you have to listen to music.
Why in the world would you argue with that?
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"A stupid post that assumes what everyone likes and wants. Nonsense."
Did you mean to say "100% of people who define immersiveness solely in terms of dancing prefer to dance to live rather than recorded music"?
Are we talking drunk or sober?
I am saying that everyone prefers a live performance over a recording of a live performance, period.
Research Shows an increased entrained physiological response to music of different speeds and moods when the listener is present with the performer, compared to listening to a recording of the same performance.
Shoda, H., Adachi, M., & Umeda, T. (2016). How Live Performance Moves the Human Heart. PLoS ONE, 11(4), e0154322. http://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0154322
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@stuartk
That's fair enough, but the science does support that premise, its physiological.
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@ghdprentice
Your idea of using multi speakers and Atmos… well, it is one of those things that sounds great on paper but isn’t remotely close to working in the real world.
Santana, Adele, Aerosmith and many others are ALL incorporating Atmos in the "real world" of their shows:
https://www.mixonline.com/live-sound/venues/on-the-cover-las-vegas-takes-immersive-live-part-1
High quality sound requires top quality components.
I can get Marantz, JBL, or Anthem SOA processors for less than $8K, can you say that about a SOA two channel preamp? High quality doesn’t have to be exorbitant.
So scale up a really high quality system to have 7 or 12 or more speakers / amps and you just increased you system cost by ten times.
This is debatable, I don’t think we could reach a conclusive answer.
I have a home theater system with a flagship surround processor, B&W 805 speakers and two B&W 800 subwoofers. It sounds great… but not remotely in the same league as my audio system.
Fair enough, I have a two channel audio system with a flagship (or Signature as Sony calls it) two channel preamp with a pair of Paradigm Studio Reference Active 40 speakers, all drivers custom built in Paradigm’s factory biamped internally by class A/B Anthem amps hand selected by the designer with a matched active crossover. It sounds great (and measures great, see my profile)...but not remotely in the same league as my 9.3.8 home theater.
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OK @stuartk , I respect your preferences. Here is a nice perspective from Giles martin on immersive audio. He says when his father mixed the Beatles records in the studio he was attempting to paint the walls with music. His description is now with atmos, they are actually bringing those walls to life. He left out the other part but if you need at least 9 speakers to bring the walls to life what are the walls like with only two speakers, well I could say flat, or less than alive (about :25 mark):
https://youtu.be/Wy4KqZYaj3c
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@drmuso
First, love the system you posted and especially that rack of LP’s. I agree I would rather hear a great recording of a live performance than be stuck at one that sucks (crowd noise, bad seats, too loud, etc). I think your speakers are very capable of providing an immersive bubble with a good recording. You might like the atmos mix of this live hendrix recording. In my room its like being there. Speaking of Eddie Kramer see:
The historic playback session was accompanied by a discussion with producers Janie Hendrix, Eddie Kramer and John McDermott, moderated by journalist and music critic Randy Lewis. Kramer, who engineered all major Jimi Hendrix releases, was responsible for the album’s stereo mix. During the discussion, Janie Hendrix, sister of music legend Jimi Hendrix, described the timing of the live album as the perfect moment in which “technology finally caught up to Jimi.” When asked by Lewis whether Jimi Hendrix was aware of the potential of the live recording of the Forum show all three producers confirmed he listened to it but the plan for a live album never came, that is until now.
https://music.mxdwn.com/2022/11/13/los-angeles/dolby-atmos-host-listening-party-for-jimi-hendrix-experience-los-angeles-forum-april-26-1969/
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@donavabdear
You have both an active and a passive immersive setup, any thoughts?
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@curiousjim
I think you are missing a few things to get your home system to be more immersive. when you go to a concert, you have A LOT of amps powering A LOT of speakers. Most of the time they are tri amped and you can feel the subwoofers from a distance.
This is one of the most astute observations I have seen on the topic AND you are of course 100% spot on. How in the hell do you get enough power into 9 bed channels, 8 height channels, and 3 subwoofers to light this puppy up and not need an entire room to house the amps, and if you wanted to biamp? Double that rack, double the amp channels, and add a few more miles of speaker cables? Not practical.
First of all, I don’t think it is necessary to get a really good immersive experience, many receivers can push the needle IF you pay attention to the acoustics and treat your room properly. Acoustics is 80% of the immersive experience.
I decided to load my room with enough power to launch a rocket. That’s why I went with ACTIVE speakers that are internally biamped with 125 watts for the woofer and 50 watts for the tweeter (even my center channel). See the specs here:
http://www.cain.cainslair.com/Paradigm%20Reference%20Active%20Series%20Specifications.htm
BTW, check out the pics of my virtual system and note I mounted one of my subs on the back wall closer to the ceiling than the floor, IMMERSIVE bass. This setup was recommended by Earl Geddes, try and use 3 subs with at least one off the floor.
You get a great experience when you couple those internal monoblocks to the drivers with an active crossover too.
if I were starting from scratch today I would check out active speakers from JBL, Yamaha, Genelec, PMC, Focal, Dynaudio, Neumann, Meridian or Meyer Audio.
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@brianlucey
You are the only member I know that has an analog immersive setup, any thoughts?
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@dinov
I’m old school, I’ll take a great soundstage over surround sound any day!
Surround sound is from the last decade, this immersive audio is not the same. Yes, I still enjoy old school too, generally in the mornings with my coffee I will listen in stereo.
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@winoguy17
Blanket statements like this are only good for creating arguments...
Noted,
I like the system you posted, how is the Marantz Ruby SACD player? I use one of their processors and have great respect for that players designer.
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@audiodidact
I agree you can have good or bad recordings in immersive audio. The processor or receiver has controls that allow you to select two channel, or upmix to any of several selections (Dolby Surround, DTS Neural or Neo-X, Audyssey DSX, Auro-3D, etc). You can tailor the song to your room.
As for the band being in front of you the engineers refer to this as the artists intent and try and reproduce it. There are many artists that discuss this on Dolby’s channel like:
https://youtu.be/x4V2q2stRjM
BTW, your system looks amazing, why the bare walls though? Room treatments?
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@mahler123
I would like to experiment with a true Atmos setup. However I have a drop ceiling
There are advantages to using front and rear height channels, mounted high on the wall, see the pic of my system or the pic above of abbey road studios. They are easy to wall mount but I chose tall stands because active speakers are heavy. See:
https://www.svsound.com/products/prime-elevation
And I might sell the house in a couple of years as we downsize
Those prime elevation speakers are wall mounted, no drilling holes in the ceiling. I recommend you look at the Onkyo RZ50 receiver, I use Onkyo in the mancave (which also has a drop ceiling, I wall mounted the height channels)
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@mihorn
Great system, are those auralex panels? I had great results with auralex.
The quality of the sound is more important in hi-end audio.
I agree, this doesn't need to be an either/or binary decision. With an immersive system you can use as many speakers as you want, from 2 to 22, depending on the song and the recording to get the quality you want. Atmos is backward compatible, object oriented audio. Its not channel based, but will still play back on two speakers. The vast majority of the tracks I play are mixed in stereo and I upmix them.
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@waytoomuchstuff
Great post, I think "suspension of disbelief" is spot on in terms of what people want from any audio system.
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@jonwolfpell
A really good, two channel home system can .reproduce a large, deep, detailed soundstage w/ great dynamics & sound better than most live venues.
I don’t disagree, but I don’t think I would ever confuse a recorded playback on any system for a live performance of am orchestra.
More speakers & electronics etc is just more, not necessarily better.
Yep, more speakers also means more ways to screw it up, but you can screw up a stereo too. I found that although the Dolby specs for speaker setup are meticulous they were still not right for my room. Their diagram has the MLP toward the back of the room, equidistant between front and back walls worked better for me. Here are dolby’s specs:
This model where the MLP is equidistant was night and day better for my room:
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@mahgister
Immersive audio is NOT the same as immersive acoustic...
True dat, most receivers and processors use some type of DSP to help with the acoustics.
Immersiveness in PHYSICAL acoustic is created by passive material treatment and active mechanical control of the room...
Yep, I agree 100%.
In digital audio of home theater for music theater the main point is NOT PRESERVING the physical recorded experience of a specific non amplified musical instrument , which reflect the trade-off choices of the recording engineer IN A CLOSED ACOUSTIC SPACE , the main point with home theater music experience in is rrecreating the general atmosphere of AMPLIFIED instruments ...
This is where the room acoustics come into play. There is a blueray concert by Kraftwerk recorded in Atmos and 3D video. It is the most lifelike recording I have ever heard in my room when played at reference levels. I think because the amplified instruments are easier to reproduce (mainly synthesizers).
When I play back solo piano I like minimal use of height channels, more use of wide channels and room acoustics help recreate the sound of the hall or studio the piano was recorded in.
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@jonwolfpell
I really do enjoy my Innuos server & it’s so fun dialing up virtually anything I want on Qobuz. Fantastic technology!
+1, agreed,
I’m not stuck in my old ways but also not on highly processed, multi channel sound for home music listening.
But ALL studio recordings are HIGHLY processed:
https://www.avid.com/pro-tools
Would you like sauce with that? It is a question of WHAT type of processing you prefer, please see:
https://youtu.be/lWiUP1Qz8x8
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@mahgister
Kota1 buy the BACCH filters...
I will, but I want to buy the headphones first, can you give me a link? Thanks for the great info 👍
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@bikeboy52
Your ideas are great for someone who wants the same thing as you but not so great for others.
I did say in my post you probably wouldn't like my suggestions. Take a look at my room, I wouldn't fool anyone that I'm the Martha Stewart of audio 😁.
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@stuartk
Is the difference between us that I view immersion more in terms of the capacity of the listener while you seem to view the listener more as a passive factor, with technology facilitating immersion?
Yes, I am focused on the tech side in this thread, buying a single pair of speakers for $$$$ is the costliest, least effective way to achieve an immersive experience or "a suspension of disbelief". The room is more important than the equipment so that means room treatments and some type of tech to measure and possibly use DSP.
A surround processor or receiver tops out at about $20K for a Trinnov but outstanding choices are available for far less. Finally 9-12 moderately priced small speakers setup properly with a couple of subs instead of two expensive towers.
Finally to have two sources, one for channel based audio and one for object based audio. My guess is less than 50% of the members here have experienced high end object based audio in a properly setup room.
that people can only perceive and appreciate art when it’s turned into an IMAX experience.
There is a lot of truth to that statement, and not just IMAX size screens. The members here have some incredibly luxurious systems and rooms. It is a matter of preference I guess.
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@mahgister
An immersive one for an headphone without the BACCH filters or no dSP associated like the Smyth realizer... The K340 is among the few the best designed headphones ever...
Can you please post a link, to those cans, I have a great headphone amp and would like to try, thanks.
Is it this one?
https://www.headfonia.com/akg-k340-bass-heavy-version/
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@brianlucey
First, your reply is very welcomed, thanks. Next, I am just a consumer with preferences, like everyone else. Now, you got a dog in the race so if anything, feel free to take this discussion down 30% and I’m happy to engage.
As for 100% this or that, let me state it like this. 100% of the time I can tell the difference between a live orchestra and a recording of an orchestra as well as most people on the planet (maybe not 100% but close). Your point is well taken and I will tone down the usage of absolute anything.
Now, you have the luxury of using a personally curated immersive playback system with actual master tapes that "most" (I avoided the use of 100% of us, I’m learning) will never have access to.
I’m in, what will help pioneers and engineers like you perpetuate a helpful image of immersive audio?
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@donavabdear
Will the listener be put in the position of a listener in the audience, will the listener be put in the position of hearing direct and acoustic sound that is in the mind of the musician and producer
When they were recording the London Symphony Orchestra they miked it and positioned the objects so the listener was positioned at the conductors stand!
Listen to how Brian Eno discusses about how he uses his intentions to place the listener in space, about 3:00 mark:
https://youtu.be/VF4Ka3nfvYc
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Most music I listen to was mixed in stereo, then upmixed by my processor into another more immersive format. Stereo sounds flat compared, not bad, but flat, it lacks that "third dimension". For Atmos I think Steve Genewick did an amazing job with the Miles Davis atmos mixes and giles martin did great with the beatles remixes. Revolver sounds sooo good, it is an interesting video he did on the remix process as well. Also I like the tracks that are being dropped mixed natively in atmos, not just remixed. I get an e-mail from dolby about new drops every few weeks.
Giles Martin on the Revolver atmos remix:
https://youtu.be/IUr_BmtbCjM
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@bikeboy52
I see your room, love your system. When I look at the pictures two things come to mind (for me, but you won’t likely agree), the big TV and speakers SCREAM "give me a center channel" and the ceiling screams acoustic cloud. However, that is me :).
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@mihorn
All speakers and audio systems in the world sound veiled and bright that includes $100k cd player, $million speakers, $100k power amp, $20k power cords, etc.
Agreed, that doesn't mean I don't like them, just not as much as live music. If I could have Norah Jones or Billy Joel at the piano in my living room or a CD you know which one I (but not everyone apparently) would choose.
The sounds of surround receivers are not good and can't compete to the sound of a good stereo amp.
My Onkyo receiver sounds "good" but my Carver amp is in another league, agreed. BUT, the gap is getting narrower every year.
2 channel set up is easier to make smoother musical sound and better for long term listening music.
I can't disagree, you can see my desktop system and my home theater, no question my desktop system was easier and still sounds quite satisfying for casual listening.
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@mahgister
OK, I'll get the filters then, do you have a link? Thanks
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@wolf_garcia
I’ve been playing music professionally for decades and have also spent many years as an overpaid live sound system designer and mixer.
Thank so much for joining this thread. Must be a fun way to make a living! The link in my OP was specifically about live performances at Vegas residencies.
There’s always a lot of pseudo cerebral blathering about surround being "more real" but do you want Miles playing to the back of your head?
Kind of Blue in Atmos is available on Tidal and Atmos music, highly recommended, see "Stunningly Good in Atmos" below:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/miles-davis-gets-re-mixed-dolby-atmos
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An immersive audio system that every spouse would love, the Sony HT A9, a lifestyle immersive audio system:
Surround sound is so last decade - what you really want is 360-degree audio
https://www.techradar.com/reviews/sony-ht-a9
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@audioguy85
Saw your profile, nice stack of gear, how long did it take to curate it?
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So I dug into the "New Atmos Arrival" Playlist on Tidal tonight, the jaw dropping, face melting, heart stopping tracks (so far) which (if you have a system that is capable and a subscription) are:
1) Tubular Bells - Incredible
2) Let’s Stay Together- Al Green- Listening to this I understood why God gave us center channels. Anything less for Reverend Al is heresy.
3) Chicago- 25 or 6 to 4- OMG, the horns! Incredible depth, tone, separation, the guitar solo, beautiful.
4) God Only Knows- Beach Boys- The harmonies in stereo are a bit squished, in atmos, each voice as an object, breathing in their own distinct location, breathtaking.
5) Englishman in New York-Sting- The woodwinds, the strings, the tone, it is like you never heard it before.
6) Linus and Lucy- Vince Guaraldi- The piano, crystal clear in the soundstage but the percussion, WOW, its like you never noticed it until now.
New drops by the Stones, Pink Floyd. McCartney, Clapton, Luther Van Ross, and sooo many other. Oh yeah, Sinatra, incredible, breathtaking, dare I say...priceless??
Link to the Tidal playlist:
https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/842c6d95-a332-48dc-af28-92c573bd4fdc
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I think I’ll invest my ’entertainment $s’ at home....when ’we’ can drown the performers in sheer spl....
and you don’t have to travel, stand in line, and have people coughing on you LOL.
Linkwitz once commented on ’ignoring the room’ with his dipoles in the 4 ’corners’; made a lot of sense to me, and still does.
That is exactly what the new Sony HT-A9 does, 4 speakers and instead of dipoles they use proprietary tech to map the room.
You can't replicate the "object based" experience with channels, no way, no how. For consumers to dump $$$$ into channel based tech without ever having compared to an object based experience is lunacy, given the growing amount of content available in apple music and tidal. Yes, object based has tradeoffs too, but the experience is stunning in my room, stunning!
https://www.ibc.org/features/object-based-audio-immersive-experiences-and-personalisation/9214.article
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@mahgister
«I don’t know what happens when we die,
We get to meet Elvis (I hope) :)
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@hsbrock
First of all thanks for your post, very articulate and welcome to the forum.
There is nothing else besides stereo.
uhhhh, what about the Beatles recording in mono BEFORE the albums were converted to stereo?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beatles_in_Mono
I read the article about the techie in Vegas & Santana
Thank you.
I just want to hear the musician, accurately, reproduced faithfully, in high fidelity.
I agree. My first statement in the OP was a preference for live music over a recording. I learned some members prefer a CD over the actual live musician in your listening space, interesting.
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