All concepts of "immersiveness" , being it physical acoustic concept of small room , psycho-acoustic concept , and various dsp "immersive" system will all meet at one point and merge in some case... ...

Here technology meet science and meet music experience in timbre and space...

 

Here a summary by Cambridge University :

Immersive audio, capture, transport, and rendering: a review

 

 

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/apsipa-transactions-on-signal-and-information-processing/article/immersive-audio-capture-transport-and-rendering-a-review/A39094D58238A0F66750D48362D5FF17

 

And a thread here about one of the most important DSP the BACCH filters :

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/bacch4mac-pro-edition-for-those-considering-bacch.7917/page-22

 

Acoustic is a science OVER debate between "purist stereo lover " as i am and Theater multichannel group lover "

Soon there will be no more of these distinction...

if i had money i would have bought The BACCH filters long time ago...

I must wait...

Anyway i just tried to upgrade my amplifier, and i was unsuccessful , just to realize that i am already in TOP AUDIOPHILE league with my 2 vintage well designed amplifier and headphone then i can wait a bit before going with Edgar Choueiri...

😁😊

Audio is about acoustic/psycho-acoustic not about the gear "per se" and it is about SYNERGY coupling...

There is no debate between stereo lover and multichannel home theater, the science will erase it... It is already done anyway ...Choueiri is the leading authority ...

 

Here a doctorate thesis of a Choueiri Student and himself published this year :

https://dataspace.princeton.edu/handle/88435/dsp01z029p801x

 

Here the abstract :

Abstract:

In recent years, "spatial audio" has seen a dramatic uptick in popularity. The demand for increased immersion in many forms of auditory media seemingly led several industry leaders to pursue 3D audio playback. Almost all of these developments, however, are effective for only a single listener. In a home theatre setting, surround sound systems seek to provide a similar type of auditory immersion through physical placement of sound sources in 3D space. While this approach can be effective for multi-listener playback, modern surround systems suffer from both bulkiness and over-complexity. Moreover, both approaches rely on specialized mixing and object-oriented audio, providing little support for decades of stereo recordings. This project provides an alternative to these typical 3D audio systems through a one-dimensional phased speaker array. Using a combination of acoustic beamforming and cross-talk cancellation filters (along with head-tracking), this system is capable of directing audio towards multiple listeners’ ears and provides enough channel isolation for 3D audio perception. More specifically, it utilizes spectral division method beamforming, frequency domain beam steering, and Edgar Choueiri’s BACCH Filters for cross-talk cancellation. This report details the software optimization process for these techniques, along with the design and manufacturing of a new physical array. This design is primarily informed by binaural measurements and acoustic pressure simulations. Using these tools and methods, the final system improves upon previous hardware and software to provide 3D audio playback unmatched by existing systems of the same form factor.

URI:

http://arks.princeton.edu/ark:/88435/dsp01z029p801x

 

I am curious more  about Bach and Scriabin...😊😉

and Elvis is not dead anyway...

@mahgister 

«I don’t know what happens when we die, 

We get to meet Elvis (I hope) :)

I said it but way less directly and clearly than you in my post above... Thanks to be right on the target and so concrete to be then understood by all......

There is as i said a precise rigorously defined concept of "immersiveness" in acoustic...

I will cite my own post to complement your post :

Immersive audio is NOT the same as immersive acoustic...

Immersive audio use DSP generally without psycho-acoustic measures of the inner ears and HRTF. ... ( save for example the Smyth realizer)

Immersiveness in PHYSICAL acoustic is created by passive material treatment and active mechanical control of the room...

Immersiveness in psycho-acoustic use measures of the inner ears and also Head-related transfer functions (HRTFs) describe the filtering of the acoustic field produced by a sound source arriving at the listener’s ear. It is used in smyth realizer but at a more sophisticated level by BACCH filters...

 

 

s I have read through the above posts it call goes back and forth somewhat comically to me. All immersive is stereo. Everything is stereo. There is nothing else besides stereo. Atmos cannot supercede stereo. Nothing else exists besides stereo. And because there was some debate above about whether anyone dare say 100%, I dare say everyone, i.e., 100% in this thread can only hear stereo, unless there is someone here that insists they have more than two ears, perhaps an extra ear on their back, their elbow or someplace. Stereo means two, as in two ears, two auditory senses. Our ears sense spatially and make other assessments based on milliseconds of timing, and so do are ears/mind assess accuracy, clarity, transparency, etc. that have little to do with the spatial issues

I will only add that even spatialization as Timbre is constrained and created by our TWO ears/brain, and we can create it in an acoustically controlled room partially without DSP and without measures on our inner ear and pinnae and without HRTF measures, mechanically by modifying the zone pressures distribution in a small room and the balance and timing with incoming reflections.., It cannot be perfect doing so mechanicaklly but this give us an idea about the power of acoustic controls in a room...

 

 

 

«I don’t know what happens when we die, but maybe we go somewhere between 10^18 Hz and 10^43 Hz» Stuart Hameroff

 

https://twitter.com/StuartHameroff/status/1692253150093422799

@mahgister

OK, I’ll get the filters then, do you have a link? Thanks

 

It is better if you read what it is first...

 

Read that and you could decide after ..

 

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/theoretica-applied-physics-bacch-sp-adio-stereo-purifier/

https://research.princeton.edu/news/edgar-choueiri-bacchtm-3d-sound

https://www.theoretica.us/index.html

 

This discovery eclipse all other audio gear news...Because it is an application of fundamental acoustic , not a new  electrical gear design for a mere dac or multichannels etc ...

But very vew people spoke about it in audio forums...

 

Perfect, you will be very astounded...Read about Choueri , it is really a genius in audio...

 

For the headphone, you will not like it...

This is an old headphone, AKG K340 , he aged not well... And i make modifications to it...But you can buy it for peanuts then , dont be angry at me if you dont like it... 😁 For me it is my favorite...

And i did not like it so much the first day... It takes me 6 months to optimize it...

buy a contemporary headphone , a top one.... budget seems not for you a problem as it is for me... 😊

By the way i take a plunge, and buy the microzotl 2 as pre-amp for my Sansui AU 7700 to serve my headphone...

 

 

@mahgister

Kota1 buy the BACCH filters...

I will, but I want to buy the headphones first, can you give me a link? Thanks for the great info 👍

I cannot add anything to what has just been said by Hilde45 and nonoise and stuartk...

I prefer stereo acoustic because it is possible to have localization even listener envelopment ( immersiveness) without compromising TIMBRE ...

 

Kota1 buy the BACCH filters... It is the only DSP i would buy.... Because it is the only one who preserve room acoustic and timbre and your own head/ears profile measurement...And this filter cannot affect the timbre recorded of the album, it is explained mathematically why in Dr. Choueri article... Go and read... 😊

Great post...

There is some truth in the idea and experience of kota1, but stereo system with no DSP and and dsp for home theater and multichannels are TWO world,..Then there is another sort of truth in stereo system...

Accoustic for small stereo room is one thing , and home theater another one...

I watched the video.

Is the difference between us that I view immersion more in terms of the capacity of the listener while you seem to view the listener more as a passive factor, with technology facilitating immersion? Or perhaps we define immersion differently. I don’t need to have my walls "painted with sound" in order to experience what I describe as immersion. This sounds like a remedy for people’s senses having become dulled.

If one is esthetically sensitive by nature, as I am, and has experienced making music, as I have, there is no need for any "added stimulation". I’m reminded of a current local Van Gogh exhibit I read about, which incorporates blowing up and projecting his paintings onto museum walls, so people can "walk through them". As a life-long art lover and someone who’s been involved in drawing, printmaking and photography, this strikes me as very odd -- that people can only perceive and appreciate art when it’s turned into an IMAX experience.

Listener envelopment is a rigorous acoustic concept abbreviated by LV and the apparent source width abbreviated by ASW is also a rigorous acoustic concept ...

 

«The auditory system has mechanisms that separate the processing of late reverberation from the processing of direct sound and early reflections referred to as precedence effect. While the late reverberation contributes to the perception of listener envelopment and reverberance, the direct sound and the early reflections mostly affect source localization, intimacy and the apparent source width.^[3] The balance of early and late arriving sound affects the perceived clarity, warmth and brilliance. » Wiki

Now in a small room or in vas hall acoustic there is means and acoustic design and tools to create IMMERSIVENESS which is the result of the right balance LV/ASW ...

I created it in my small room but not with only material passive treatment but i needed active mechanical one : aqn oriented grid of tuned Hemholtzs resonators around speakers and my listening position...

It was stereo on steroid as if i had many speakers... The recording trade 0ff of each musical album was plain to hear and astoundingly different between all albums..

All recording were interesting even the bad recording because the speakers/room revealed the recording engineer choices...

I lost my acoustic room selling my house, i was sad... I discovered the only headphone i can modify for my acoustic needs and now i came back here with an headphone system... An immersive one  for an headphone without the BACCH filters or no dSP associated like the Smyth realizer... The K340 is among the few  the best designed headphones ever...

At least kota1 you will attract the attention of people on the essential : stereo or not .... Room acoustic... 😊

But i will stay stereo with non amplified instruments albums recorded in good acoustic environment WITHOUT DSP treatment ...

I am child spoiled ... 😁

Immersive audio is NOT the same as immersive acoustic...

Immersive audio use DSP generally without psycho-acoustic measures of the inner ears and HRTF. ... ( save for example the Smyth realizer)

Immersiveness in PHYSICAL acoustic is created by passive material treatment and active mechanical control of the room...

Immersiveness in psycho-acoustic use measures of the inner ears and also Head-related transfer functions (HRTFs) describe the filtering of the acoustic field produced by a sound source arriving at the listener’s ear. It is used in smyth realizer but at a more sophisticated level by BACCH filters...

 

Many audiophile are more interested by stereo system able to give a REALISTIC natural timbre instruments experience than interested by DSP as such ...

They will use physical acoustic and psycho-acoustic measures to create acoustic immersiveness not mere audio immersivenes or dsp immersiveness as with many more speakers than two ...

The only DSP preserving the integrity of the timbre natural experience , and the only dedicated audiophile one is Dr. Choueri BACCH filters...

Without the BACCH filters and without psycho-acoustic measures we can create a relative partially convincing immersive stereo experience with passive acoustic treatment and active mechanical control of the room...

But BACCH filters are a DSP perfect control of the room without distorting the timbre , the only one preserving timbre quality from the acoustic original recording conditions...Other DSP can create immersiveness artificially but loosing integrity of the original acoustic timbre recorded experience in various degree ...

Immersiveness from a living show with amplified music as in pop and rock is not the same as immersiveness in a concerrt hall with non amplified instruments as the recording engineer proposed his set of acoustic microphones trade-off ...

 

Then stereo and home theater DSP are two different experience , in these two we can experience a form of immersiveness... One is digitally driven , the other serve and emerge from mechanical acoustic and/or from a set of specficic psycho-acoustic measures for EACH listener ...

It is my limited understanding... 😊

In digital audio of home theater for music theater the main point is NOT PRESERVING the physical recorded experience of a specific non amplified musical instrument , which reflect the trade-off choices of the recording engineer IN A CLOSED ACOUSTIC SPACE , the main point with home theater music experience  in is rrecreating the general atmosphere of AMPLIFIED instruments ...

A live concert of pop in open air on an outdoor scene  with big speakers is not the recording of an organ concert or a piano concert  in a church or in a small studio ...

"Immersive" in acoustic refer to spatial relation between the listener and the translation of the recording in his room acoustic...Stereo system can do it at certain precise acoustic conditions which are very complex... I experienced them at the end with a one year experiments 7 days on 7...

We can realize "immersiveness" with an acoustic room and a stereo system , not a living room generally...

The physiological reaction measured in live concert is related not so much to the spatial soundfield perception but by the presence of living musicians whom with we connected ...You will measure the same in a bad acoustic  spot of a concert hall...

I prefer to listen alone in optimal acoustic conditions...

The last concert i goes too was horrible because of the amplified sound in a super bad room... And i loved the musician... My physiological reactuion was : why did i came instead of buying his album ? 😊

 

For sure you started here, and i ended here...😁😊

 

To go further i will need the BACCH filter ...

By the way i dont doubt that your system is very good....

That is how I started my acoustic journey,

 

 

You underestimate physical acoustic... I used a grid of Helmmoltz tuned  resonators in my past room...

And for DSP the BACCH filters are the top of the acoustic experience  right now  ...

And my goal is not recreating "a live event"...

My goal is to retrieve the original set of acoustic trade-off used by the recording engineers TRANSLATED in my acoustic room or with my headphone ( but most headphone are badly designed for this ) ...

 

Immersiveness in acoustic is related to the basic concept of "listener envelopment" which is related to the ratio between the sound sources location and volume and the listener real and virtual position ...

 

With timbre experience , immersiveness is the second key acoustic concepts , if distortion is under control to begin with... 😊 It is true even with headphone ....

In stereo as in multichannel system , but with different tools, means and results for sure...