"I Trust My Ears"

Training his hearing has nothing to do with the gear price, branded name etc 

@mahgister 

I completely agree, brand name and price should not be part of the decision-making process.

Maybe easier said than done, but this is an area in which we can train ourselves, if we so choose, to block / ignore those and other distractions.

@devinplombier - " Colored sound is completely fine when it delights the listener"

Maybe. Or maybe a particular listener doesn't know better. It is when the scale of good-better-best is used that we run into trouble, but preference I have no problem with. As you imply, there is no moral imperative to listen to a relatively uncolored stereo.

@mahgister 

I completely agree, brand name and price should not be part of the decision-making process.

Maybe easier said than done, but this is an area in which we can train ourselves, if we so choose, to block / ignore those and other distractions.

This dont means that my 1000 bucks  system sound better than a 10,000 bucks system because it is supposed to be my ears taste...

This means that acoustic concepts and only acoustics concepts can teach us about what we are hearing and what we are not hearing..

Without an acoustic concept we cannot know nor understand what we are hearing...

Be it from a 1000 bucks system or a system at any price, the ratio ASW/LV matter and the way we can optimize it with a system of any price...

It is the same for the concept of "timbre" ...

or the  concepts linked to  each acoustic spatial attribute..

But for most " i trust my ears" means i can purchase a gear upgrade and i dont need anything save my "taste"... (subjectivist)

It is childish...

But there is worst, there are those who think they can trust only the gear  specs and nothing else matter...(objectivists)

This is ignorance worst than childish...

Our hearing must be trained not ignored...

 Acoustics and psycho-acoustics concept matter more than anything else..

Yes to buy  wisely we need synergy between gear parts, using our ears and/or the gear specs, for sure to pick the right upgrade...

But before upgrading we need to use acoustics to optimize what we already own , if not we will never know what our actual system is able to deliver in a specific room ...

 How about......"I trust my hearing"? IME, the most important element throughout the learning/listening experience, is to understand/develop to know, what "characteristics" of recorded music reproduction "are important to you". For me, well......the MUSICIANSHIP and the COMPOSITION. My system conveys both to me, to my liking. Once the speaker/room/listening seat tripod is accomplished successfully, everything else becomes much easier. Once you know, you know.  My best, MrD.

I trust my feelings. If I listen to music I love and it doesn't feel right, SOMETHING is wrong. I can use my ears and brain to analyze why. It might be my system or it might just be my mood. I can tweak either one. Or just listen to something else.

@mahgister, Thanks for your response. Indeed, I thought of your many contributions on this subject while re-reading this article before posting.

>>The following article by noted audio engineer Ethan Winer offers a cogent explanation for why we believe what we hear. As Winer explains, two people each claiming to hear different things can actually both be right:

Why We Believe

Per 'training' and preference. One can choose to be self taught or base their choices on various external forces/influences. The self taught will listen to many systems and develop their preferences through experiential learning process. 

One can't deny measurements are critical for audio component design. For the end user measurements can be important in properly matching individual components to make for a synergistic whole.

Regarding the discussion pertaining to the value of trained listening in the evaluation of audio equipment, much now foundational research has been published on this topic, especially by the honored and well-known audio engineers Floyd Toole and Sean Olive. Here is a great summary article by Sean Olive that appears on his blog:

Audio Musings by Sean Olive: How to Listen: A Course on How to Critically Evaluate the Quality of Recorded and Reproduced Sound

Toole and Olive are both retired now from their research careers at the laboratories of Canada's National Research Council and Harman International. 

FYI, Toole has a forthcoming fourth edition of his seminal work, Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers, Rooms, and Headphones, that will be published in October. It will include contributions by Olive and other distinguished researchers.

Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers,

Sound science is just another science.

@mashif ..."I trust my feelings. If I listen to music I love and it doesn't feel right, SOMETHING is wrong. I can use my ears and brain to analyze why."

I'd just like to point out what a great answer that is. It is so easy to get stuck on the analytical side, and have it start leading. Ultimately it is your subconscious that is soothed and satisfied by music.. which is why it is so universally appreciated. Listening to your inner self is probably the most important aspect of putting together a great sounding system. 

I took a quick look at the Sean Olive article @sargonicuse references.

It’s well-known that Harman uses focus groups in its design process. Olive is / was involved in setting up a training program for listeners participating in those focus groups.

As is the norm with Harman / Lansing research, Olive’s piece is well-documented, thorough, and accessible to the non-engineer. 

Interestingly a training software was developed. It is named How to Listen. It can be downloaded here. I intend to take a delve when time permits.

Thank you for this interesting link.

Today I’m very tired and have no energy. I feel like I’m sick. I have blurry vision and I can’t focus anything what I see. My eyes are dilated and my ears feel like plugged with cotton ball (I feel pressure around ears).

I have a collection of IC cables. They are my previous references such as JPS s3, XLO sig/ref, AQ diamond x3, etc. Since I make my own cables now that I wanted sell and I had 3 appointments yesterday (Saturday). Every buyers want to hear/compare different cables. I was curious about their sounds and listen them very carefully with buyers. I heard them about 5 hours yesterday. And I’m sick today.

I know why I’m sick. My older ICs are top quality and they sound very impressive which make my ears/brain to be confused. I tried to go back to my regular ear state such as talking/shout myself, listening original music, hitting a metal door hard for big bang, etc. It has happened before and it lasted a couple of hours to come back to normal. But today, my sick ear state is not curing. I’m bit scared that this dilating will last few days. What strange is the original music (always my reference) sounds strange to my ears. I know my ears are cured when the original music sounds good/normal to me.

My audio system is an only natural sound system in the world. And my ears/eyes has always been very clear and focused (w/out effort) that my thought has been clear too. I know this abnormal ear state today will be normal tomorrow if not today. But I can’t make a regular life until my ears are normal. I wonder how I lived before I have a natural sound system few years ago. Can’t you trust your ears?  Alex/Wavetouch

I trust my ears = only way to find what subjectively resonates with me.  But it doesn’t mean to only try once then draw conclusions although this may apply on some occasions.

Building trust in my ears likely stem from experience from many demos.  Starting out late in our high end audio hobby, my strategy was to demo the best gear based on reviews, then try to recreate favored Sonics within my budget.  Attended many audio shows and brick n mortar stores.  Many had great Sonics, but very few resonated (pulled me in, hard to leave) with me.

If one is not trusting their ears, perhaps they have not demoed enough to know the playing field aka what Sonics to target.

Another possibility is that our moods greatly affects our engagement in our audio systems including boredom.  I mitigate this through variety- different systems (SS/tube, analog, digital) and components (various carts, amps…)

Continue from below my post,

I am tired today because my ear state is un-natural. When my ears are un-natural sound state, even every natural sounds sound un-natural to me (until my ears become normal) and that induces “the listener’s fatigue.” That saying, audiophiles are living with “the listener’s fatigue” when they listen hi-fi audio and normal natural sound environment. These un-natural sounds (inducing tiredness) are everywhere there are audio speakers. So, they have no chance to be normal unless they go vacation in mountain for few days. Many a’philes a taking these tiredness as norm since they are in un-natural sound state all their lives. Are your eyes dilated constantly? Alex/Wavetouch

devinplomber

You started what has ended up an interesting thread, here are my 2 cents. Yes I now trust my ability to find the sound I like best, and which gear does a better job of doing that......which are improvements, and which are just "different". That however is with training them or learning what I like over the last 4 years of intense work. I don't really care if it's the ears, or recording, or brain, or colored sound, or whatever. I now know what I like, and can generally pick that out with regularity.

Sometimes I get fooled for a short time, but usually get it right. I try it, removed it, try it again, remove it, and try it again, remove it, wait a while and try it again.....because I mostly subscribe to a "First thought wrong" philosophy. Case in point B & W and Focal speakers, their detail sounds magical for short periods.....but takes all of the joy out of the music for me, and shortened my listening time.

I do take into account other's opinions, like those found here on Agon, some reviewers, and at trade shows which I attend as much as I can......but always follow it up with my own personal listen in my system or systems I know well. The only 2 pieces of gear I've bought without listening to (or on audition) were my Clayton Shaw Caladan speakers which I love, and my Aric Audio gear (which every piece has been brilliant across the board). I've found that if 15 out of 15 people say Joseph Audio, Fritz, Revival, Pure Audio Project, or Volti speakers are really good, then that is at least might be a place to start.....same has happened with many brands of gear.

I don't know. I just buy my gear according to what Amir says and look at its measurements all night. That's fine with me. Also, my doctor says I'm half deaf but my engineering degree says otherwise. So there's that.... 

Sometimes I get fooled for a short time, but usually get it right. I try it, removed it, try it again, remove it, and try it again, remove it, wait a while and try it again.....because I mostly subscribe to a "First thought wrong" philosophy. Case in point B & W and Focal speakers, their detail sounds magical for short periods.....but takes all of the joy out of the music for me, and shortened my listening time.

@vthokie83 I really like this. It articulates the uncertainty and fickleness inherent to the process. How not all differences are good, and how a positive trait may eventually turn out to be a negative one given time. 

I respect that.

Compare the honesty of this statement with the usual "as I moved up and upgraded to the next level in their lineup, the improvement in my system was profound at every step" tripe. But I digress.

I am not at a point - I almost wrote "sadly" - where I choose to undertake that painstaking search for the last few percentage points. I am still focused on improving my core system and my sources, so I feel that turning my attention elsewhere would be distracting and maybe even misleading at this point.

Maybe someday. 

Until then, thank you for a thoughtful post. 

I would not consider myself a 'true' audiophile because I have always had the philosophy that my goal is to create a sonic experience that I find the most pleasing - and not necessarily to try and replicate exactly what "...the artist intended / the music sounded like in the studio..." etc.

I would qualify that statement with the end result of me efforts being still fairly close to the intent of the artist and / or studio engineers... but for me, MY listening satisfaction is placed above trying to achieve the flattest response curve, lowest roll-off numbers, etc.

My only gripe is when 'true' audiophiles try to tell me that "you just don't know any better..." My retort is usually something like "is that knowledge of what is 'better' actually such a positive thing - when at least I can say that I am thoroughly satisfied with my system's performance, and I thoroughly enjoy the listening experience I have... while you are perpetually NEVER satisfied and always feeling like your system is 'unfinished' and 'not good enough yet..."???

devinplombier

I am not yet at the "last few percentage points" stage, I'm still where upgrades can make a really large improvement.

This year I'll complete my listening room, and then I'll add at least one set of speakers, a new streamer, and a new DAC......so far I have at least a year trying new speakers, streamers, and DACs; so I should be near a decision when funds clear up.

I trust myself for what I like.  I've been to countless live music events of every kind; a world class symphony and opera company, blues , jazz, rock music venues of every kind in town.  I've seen Solti conduct Verdi's Falstaff, Wagners Ring at the Lyric, to a spitting fight at a Dead Kennedys show at the Aragon( Jello Biafra started to yelling spit on me at the audience. You had to have been their, or not), and evry kind of modernist, world music imaginable.  I may want to read other people's opinions on music here, but in the end, it's almost always my first instinct/choice that I go with, and most importantly, enjoy listening to. 

"How many of us account for the fact that the subtler differences we think we’re hearing may just be our brains telling us there’s something when there’s nothing just because it seems there should be?"  Well, then so be it.  It's my brain that is going to enjoy, or not, what I hear.

   And "We must train our hearing by tuning our brain with thinking concepts and setting experiments in a system/room with different musical styles",   "Tastes must be educated.",  " We need acoustics concepts to understand audio",  "Crocodiles had tastes and we cannot convince them their tastes are bad habits...A part of our brain is a crocodile..." and on and on.  @mahgister  I would be so depressed if I had to go through all that to enjoy a concert.  In all of that, I have never heard any system reproduce any live music event I've been to.  I've heard spectacular systems producing great sound, and I have listened to a live Jazz performance, then played back in the same room, not moving from my spot.  I own one recording that puts me almost inside an orchestra, something like I once heard at  Symphony Center from a front row seat just left of the conductor.  

Agreed. Listen to below original music. If they sound absolutely the best, your ears are good. Alex/Wavetouch

You Don't Know You're Born - Mark Knopfler

My Favorite Picture of You - Guy Clark

Light my fire - Pat Barber

donavabdear    Don't trust your ears unless you have something to reference your memory to. Audiophiles listen to expensive speakers and systems that often add extra flavor and that sounds better to us, usually because the system is expensive and impressive. The proper sound is in the mixing and mastering studio unless you have done that you have no reference to judge what the proper sound is. No one can say this or that is better or worse unless you have been in the studio listening to the final mix. 

ghdprentice said it well. I for one started this journey just at the start of covid and all I relied on was reviews and forums. I have always wondered, back then, was I hearing good enough. yeah, wallet say so, but was it good enough??

As covid subsided and more shows open up (and dealers) I took that opportunity to answer my questions. well, I found out that I was not too off tangent. we can go on and on, but for me, let me summarize it. You don't know what missing unless you know what you're looking for. And, you think you are right, but sometimes you are wrong. 

needless to say, I thought my system is good and satisfying a couple of years ago, but after listening to shows and reading a lot on forums and finally listening to High end ($$$$$) gear, well, you will know what you are missing because our brain is telling us to observe (listen) carefully what a truly expensive gear sounds like compared to my home gear. As this discovery unfolds, then you now seek that goal but being realistic on your wallet. 

You will eventually reach a point that your gear is good enough (again based on your budget) and that's where you can stop (if ones wishes). I check mine against top $$$ builds and my EARS tell me that I am close. 

First, i can enjoy any concert in any place with good or bad acoustics, i dont bother with sound if i goes to hear an artist...

Second the goal if we want to create a system/room  well optimized acouistically, mechanically and electrically is not reproducing a live event ...

This is impossible  even  if your budget is way over my 1000 bucks system...

Third is you are like i am interested to do the most with the system you have, you must train you hearing, why ? to understand room acoustics...Is it a mystery impossible to understand? there is no other way...

And "We must train our hearing by tuning our brain with thinking concepts and setting experiments in a system/room with different musical styles",   "Tastes must be educated.",  " We need acoustics concepts to understand audio",  "Crocodiles had tastes and we cannot convince them their tastes are bad habits...A part of our brain is a crocodile..." and on and on.  @mahgister  I would be so depressed if I had to go through all that to enjoy a concert.  In all of that, I have never heard any system reproduce any live music event I've been to.

@mihorn 

But do your speakers spit at you when you play a Dead Kennedys album? Cuz if they don't, then it ain't live.

I always retain equipment so I can do A>B>A compare, and I may have to repeat this numerous times. These days seem to be retaining amps since I can't find fault with any of them, I rotate for the varied presentations. Sometimes its not the obvious things like resolution/transparency that offer the greatest contrast. 

Do you A>B>A compare to the original music? What did you find?

I compared Qobuz, YT, and my system like below. Alex/WTA

https://youtube.com/shorts/61_D_u9_rww?si=fBgSAK_cClJIjJzi

sns   I always retain equipment so I can do A>B>A compare, and I may have to repeat this numerous times.

Hey there your ears and no one else's.....enjoy.

«Between my ears and me there is only my wife»-- Groucho Marx 

In the big scheme of things our hearing is remarkably similar; it's our listening that varies the most.

I am not sure about this. In spite of the fact that our hearing differ more and more with aging and habit, we listen most of us the "same sold to us music" ....

Who listen music out from his cultural short conditioning  here ? 

@devinplombier - I'll ask Jello about that next time I talk to him! You should see HIS hi-fi system; it's closer to mid-80's Radio Shack than anything approaching audiophile - that's Henry Rollins' department - Jello's got more vinyl than many record stores, but some people really just don't care about gear. He trusts his ears to his 'low-fi'....