I'm going to buy my first tube amp. I need honest blunt opinions
Recommendations please. I am thinking of dipping my toes in the tube amp water. For the longest time I have been tempted to buy a modest tube amp to run my Monitor Gold 300’s at 90db.
I’ve been toying around, researching the different characteristics of SET, class A, class AB, B Ultralinear tube amps for months. It’s a bit much. As far as the reviewers go, they are too vague. They are afraid to be upfront honest.
Sources are a Parasound JC 3+, a Innous ZENith Mk3, and a Oppo going to a Benchmark DAC, then all go to a Benchmark LA 4 preamp that will feed the new amp.
My room is 16 x16. The speakers have a 12-foot spread. I sit 14 feet back, so it’s not that big of a room.
I have narrowed it down to four candidates.
A used Canary Audio M90 300B Tube Amp at 24RMS,300B push-pull stereo triode Class A $4,000
A used Jadis Orchestra Black, 40 RMS, Class B $4,000
A 16-year-old, Used Cary Audio Six Pac Monoblock’s, 50 triode watts A/AB $2,000
A new Dynaco by WILL VINCENT 35RMS Ultralinear $2,300
I'm in agreement with soix, atmosphere and others. With the Monitor Gold 300s, for sure, it wouldn't be good to match with a SET amp or even a low to mid powered ultra-linear tube amp
If looking for the romance, and warmth of tubes (as nice of a pre that the Benchmark is) you might consider going to a tubed pre matched with a smooth 100W+ SS power amp.
While the tubes in a pre. tend to hold up and last a long time even when driving 4 ohm speakers, the tubes in mid to low powered power amps, not so well.
I loved the sound of of tubes with my Maggies, but have gone through two sets of KT-120 tubes in the past 2 years, not to mention the trouble of replacing fuses and resistors.
I went back to my old reliable Audible Illusions tubed pre, driving a 200/400 watt SS power amp and am most happy.
I have the Primaluna EVO 400 amp but you should look at this listing of Rogue Audio M-180 mono blocks I have for sale... they are much better than the Primaluna. I just need to sell the Rogues to raise some funds for some new equipment. They sound incredible and have 180W of power!
I don’t know why you don’t consider an OTL? Far superior transparency. I have NYAL Futtermans, but as they are rarer than rocking horse poop, the easier way to go would be the Atma-Spheres, which I understand are just as good.
mambacfa, I still have a pair of Dyna MKIIIs, modified by Dahong Setoo. I may give them to Jon Specter to work on, as while Dahong’s mod was more stable, they lost a little something.
The updated Dynaco ST-70 is a wonderful amp and a total bargain at its price. This is a design that has sold over 350,000 amps of the the past several decades. Tube rectification, better power supply than the original, and improved tube choices for the preamp and driver functions improved the amp even more. Lots of power (35W) in its ultra-linear mode (which is how these transformers were wound) so you should be able to drive most speakers. I owned this amp and was very happy with it, as it compared favorably to my Decware Torii (another EL34 amp.) As a bonus, the tubes this amp uses are affordable ('m a former 300B amp owner!)
Definitely bring it all CLOSE IN. You won’t be happy until… small 7’ triangle. We all have great visions of people coming over to our house and showing off what we have in relation to sound but 99% of the time it’s gonna be you and your system by yourselves. If you have a spouse or partner Great. Other than that it’s intimate and it’s low volume to really appreciate, concentrated, listening, and to break down what your speakers are offering. Acoustics are terrible and I once had a large room like yours with 20 foot ceilings, and it sounded like I was in the gymnasium.
I have a Cary Audio Rocket 88 no intention of selling it. If you are new to tubes, BE CERTAIN to test your output tubes regularly. ALL of my problems with tube amps were because I didn't test regularly. If you don't want to test, then buy new output tubes yearly. Sorry, there is no easy way out with vacuum tubes.
There is no app that allows amps to match up to speakers, someone would have to have extensive knowledge of the crossovers, voice coil, drivers, internal cables, internal components of the speaker and the same type of knowledge of the Amp.
Tube amps are a pain they are like that beautiful girl in high school that you can't stay away from even though you know better.
" I have a System using Valves in Pre and Power Amp's for many years.
I also have other devices with Valves.
I was given advice in my earliest days, to not leave a device using Valves unattended for more than a short period of time.
This is a discipline I have maintained, and to date have not had a incident that would be of a concern, so have been quite fortunate.
I would not be the one responsible for bringing Valves into a Newbies System, this this would have to be the system owners choice.
I would definitely encourage the system owner to learn about Valves pro's/cons prior to making a decision.
My second system is a design to be used to play Music to fill the house with sound and not really need to be sat in front of.
For this reason Valves are not even being considered in the set up. "
Good plan on getting new speakers. My advice would be to go for the highest dB you are able and invest in a low powered SET Amp...2A3 tubes are wonderful...
My thoughts are you will get a better result setting your system up for near field listening, your speakers seem very wide apart. It’s free to try so why not give it a shot. Mapleshade Audio has some good tips for this on their site. As for bass standing waves in that room, I don’t think it should be a problem as there isn’t much bass energy from those speakers. Move the speakers closer, move your chair into a spot making a triangle between your speakers and your chair, play with toe in and you will get way better benefit than changing your amp and again it’s free!!
As you may know tubes have a wonderful warm sound and some have managed to combine the strengths of both sold state and tubes. I have a pair of Wolcott presence 220 monoblocks considering parting with that combine the benefits of both. Hate to give them up though. They have autobiasing which is a great feature to look for if you’re new to tubes. The amps have recently been completely been retubed and have EL 34 mullard (16) power tubes. I would consider parting with them for $4900.
Buy a Ayon They are far better built , and micro processor controlled , when a tube goes out a led comes on and you just replace that one tube ,
it monitors each power tube,
regular amplifiers all tubes are just averaged. So many more disasters possible
blown transformer,resistors . I had a canary and had it rebuilt ,not that great
transformers and chokes are the major component in tube amps
Ayon use a machined aluminum case , not cheap sheet metal like the others ,
plus they use teflon Copper tube sockets ,which sonicly make a big difference vs the cheap tinned brass , they use Top quality Lundahl transformers and chokes ,
I bought two of their products , and yes iowned the above products , Jadis is agood product but doesnot have all the safety features Ayon has.
Life is short, a speaker change is hard when you like the sound of your beloved speakers. I know all too well, and need a speaker change in order to do tubes right. then I will get a tube preamp. I have a great sounding older mosfet SS amp
@paulcreedI haven’t read every post but the op decided not to buy an amp. He’s going to buy speakers.
Missed that, and worth noting. Depending on what speakers are chosen by the OP, a speaker change could potentially open the door more for a wider selection of sweet sounding tube amps as well - if that's a direction the OP wants to go.
+1@gold prentice I am not confident you will appreciate any of the suggested components give your square room and setup. I would suggest moving the speakers closer together if possible and then moving your chair closer to them aiming for the golden triangle. Then do some room analysis to see how the bass is behaving in the space and consider appropriate treatments. This may yield far greater improvements than swapping out this for that. Once you have gone thru that process and gotten accustomed to the sound then start looking at the upgrade path. Just my 2 cents.
Depends how power-hungry your speakers are, and if they have high-order (18 dB/oct and 24dB/oct) crossovers. If the true Theile/Small efficiency is less than 87 dB/watt/meter, and if the crossover is high-order or employs notch filters, sorry, tube amps are not ideal. Class AB or Class D transistor with 100 to 200 watts is what the speaker wants.
On the other hand, if the speaker has a true Theile/Small efficiency of 90 dB/meter/watt, and the crossover is low-order (6 dB/oct or 12 dB/oct), then tube amps of 35 watts/channel look good. A pair of PP EL34, 6V6, KT66, or KT88 will do the job just fine ... that’s the vast majority of vintage and modern tube amps.
SETs with 8 watts or less ... well, you really do need efficient speakers, and 6.5" to 8" woofers matched with 1" dome tweeters do not qualify. The true Theile/Small efficiency of nearly all 6.5 to 8-inch midwoofers is in the 86 to 88 dB/meter range ... and the woofer, not the tweeter, sets the efficiency of the loudspeaker. There are no magic cabinets that raise the efficiency of the woofer ... the T/S parameters set the efficiency of the woofer, and the entire speaker.
P.S. More complex crossovers are sensitive to source impedance, otherwise called Damping Factor. A very low source impedance, or high Damping Factor, is the hallmark of big-watt transistor amps.
I jumped to tubes about 18 years ago. and I will never regret it.
Being a professional pianist and having made "live" recordings of great classical and acoustic jazz performers, AND having built and hand built soldered heathkits (component by component) as a teenager music and audiophile enthusiast... there is no more alive a sound than a tube system. Even a low-priced one. If you listen mostly to loud rock, metal or screaming singers, don't bother with tubes, just get more solid state power per channel.
If you want to hear to finesse in music then you gotta go with tubes. IF you have a friend or colleague or a hifi store (Do they still exist?), I urge you to acquire the RCA CD of Bartok Concerto for Orchestra with Fritz Reiner and the Chicago Symphony. RCA legendary producers and recording technology innovators! Sit back and listen LISTEN!
Personally I use the weytech Sapphire 300B monoblocks, and with their lowly 18 watts RMS (Yes S.E.T. 300B tubes), they rock my world every time I turn them on!
The founder and designer passed away last year. They are difficult to find on the market.
If a tube amp’s output transformers are spec’ed for 4-ohm loads, it can do just fine as long as the speaker’s impedance doesn’t dwell much below that for extended periods. I asked this very question to Aric at Aric Audio before I ordered one of his 60w push-pull amps for my Perlisten S7t, which has a nominal 4 but dips below 3 at some points in the bass. He assured me no problem and he was right. The amp sounds wonderful and has absolutely no issues driving the speakers. I also have a couple of high-quality Class A SS amps that put 200+ watts into 4 ohms. I prefer the Aric amp with the Perlistens.
@pwerahera+1 @decooney "Your speakers needs a good SS amplifier. Some may not agree, but when your impedance drops below 4 ohms, it is a problem for tube amps to drive it. "
I’m glad you posted this to help the OP more. Some people are not looking at the graph above or translating to (needs FLAT response) as they keep talking about speaker sensitivity instead of helpful flat impedance and load - with TUBE amps.
What makes a speaker Tube Amp friendly? Sure any of these tube amps will produce sound, BUT, how does it function, and does it sound good? I came across this old thread, many threads out there like this to understand more.
"I suggest staying away from the Cary amps because getting tubes for these babies requires big $$$, plus they run hot, plus 50W I feel is not sufficient for your purposes and speakers."
Not sure where bojack is coming from regarding his comments on the Cary Six Pacs. I own a pair of these mono blocks and can assure you they do not run hot. Highest temp i've measured on the transformers was around 145 deg F. Yes you need 12 output tubes but the EL34 tubes are among the easiest to find and least expensive output tubes you can buy. Also, 50W of push pull triode power is more than enough to power most speakers unless you want to fill a large room at head banging levels.
Your speakers needs a good SS amplifier. Some may not agree, but when your impedance drops below 4 ohms, it is a problem for tube amps to drive it. Even though specified sensitivity is 90dB, looks like actual sensitivity is close to 87dB. Your speakers have sensitivity and impedance characteristics similar to Thiel speakers except for the phase angle.
You should try Audio Research 100.2 amp. There are several used ones available in ebay, Audiogon, TRM, etc. This amp will give tube flavor you are looking for, except this is a SS amp. Very musical and highly recommended. And there are many other options as well.
I I would look into vfets. Yamaha B1 or B2. And there is some Sony gear out there as well. It's all vintage, but easily refurbished and the sound is alot like tubes. The closest you can get to tubes with SS.
I have to agree woth some of the folks that recommend swapping the Benchmark preamp for a good quality tube preamp… I would say first. Then later upgrade to a tubed amp, in both cases I would consider Audio Research, CJ, and VAC for both. You will add synergy between the amp and preamp as well that way.
+1 on Quicksilver. These amps are incredible value. I've owned tubed Cary, Audio Research, McIntosh, but love my Mid Mono's the most. They drive my 90db efficient KLH 5s to sufficient levels in my 15 x 18 ft room. Believe it or not, they drive them and previous Snells and Harbeths Compact 3s with better bass than a Belles SS amp I had that had 150 WPC.If you want to really raise the roof, you likely need more power but remember, double the power (in this case going from 40WPC to 80WPC) will only give you an additional 3db of volume. I listen mostly to Jazz and Folk and Indie stuff, If you want to crank heavy metal to high volumes, then suggest you stick with a warmish sounding solid state amp, possibly MosFet with 150 -200WPC and use a tubed preamp as other posters have suggested. Personally I run tubed preamp and power amp and would have it no other way.
The Quicksilver amps are super well built and in your price range you can buy new and not worry about breakdowns. My previous amp was an older Cary. It blew an output transformer on one channel that my local tech replaced but warned me that that was the last one Cary had in stock. I sold the amp as I didn't want to wait for the other transformer to go and then end up with a costly paperweight.
You can use numerous output tubes on the Mid Monos, but EL34s, to my ear, sound best. That is a good thing as they are more plentiful and less costly to aquire when you want to retube. And to get the most out of these or any tube amps, you want to upgrade the tubes beyond the standard Russian/Chinese tubes most manufacturers supply with their amps these days, although Mike Saunders at Quicksilver does have some decent older NOS Tesla tubes that get you part way there.
+1 to all those who recommended a tube preamp first. I have owned my fair share of tube amps,hybrid amps and tube preamps. A high quality tube pre can give you the tube flavor you're looking for. Then later replace the SS amp with either a LSA Voyager 350 GaN amp ( a guy who has 3! is down sizing and selling one for a great price), or check out Tweak Audio. Ric is a great modifier. See which GaN amps he mods, then pick up a used unmoded and when funds are available send it to him
Some good advice but you actually never know until you try. We have vandersteen sevens that were driven by 28wpc set amp I believe 520 or 820 tube sounded fantastic on 83.5 db speakers pure class A. We were surprised at that. You can try hybrid amps like counterpoint sa-100 and get them upgraded or asteix amps.
Look at Margules Audio, I've heard them twice at the hifi shows and they always sound so great, look really beautiful with wood panels and copper plates, really great looking and have such great bass.... And made in Mexico of all places, never even knew there was high end audio manufacturing in Mexico, beautiful looking and sounding amps... Definitely plan on getting one some day
Quite a few years ago I too dipped my toe into the tube market. Cheap Chinese one I modified, An old HK A12 I restored, Built a "red light". Nothing I could afford was any good even considering the 6 to 12W range. Then I heard the Cary monoblocks on some Epos speakers. 35W if I remember. It was like melted butter all over the music. Soft, comfortable, could listen all day for my kind of music. Not for heavy metal or electronic techno stuff. Folk, Jazz, classical guitar etc. Alas, out of my reach. As was Audio Research, Mac and some vintage Lux I found even though I very much liked their version of distortion. Hard to remember, but I think I heard a Vincent hybrid too. I grew up with tubes of course as that is what we had. My first amp was a 30W Knight. It was not SOA and by the time I could afford a stereo, A Sanyo, yes SANYO Plus 55 was out there and hooked me on MOSFETs.
Yea, distortion. If you measure these amps, you will find it is not simple even vs odd and depending on topology, I can mimic that in a SS input stage*. It is something else I do not think we understand how to measure or if we are measuring it, we are not interpreting the measurements the way our brains are.
I do not understand why, but tube amps seem to be more powerful than a SS with the same power rating. Where a 20W SS may be marginal, tubes seem to carry it off better. By the time you get to 50W, seems they are not lacking. Rock solid bass is not their strong point, but with a sub, that is totally a non-issue.
Anyway, instead I built my MOSFET amp I still use today though for some irrational reason I am looking for a newer one. I understand the tube side, just not going there as amps good enough are still out of my range. Then you have the age-old arguments about KT88, EL34, B300's.
I am also temped to slip in a tube line stage, Schiit Sega + maybe. Basically, a distortion generator, but a very nice distortion generator. The other side of me is focused on DACs. Probably R2R or Qutest. My 99% focus is on vocal sibilance, "metallic" tinge to a classical guitar bass strings, horn sharpness etc. These are things I can clearly hear even in a store. I want to listen all day, no fatigue which seems to be mostly DAC centric. Others are focused on impact, imaging, air etc. DACs have improved immensely in the last couple of years. The best of the best two years ago may be mid-pack today. Talking sound, not spec chasing.
Might listen to a Hegel MOSFET before you commit to tubes. A lot of the "musicality" if you pardon the arm chair reviewer vague terminology without the heat and ageing problems. Not as much "tubieness" as a Cary, but not far from a VTL if my memory is correct. If I win the lottery, I think I would give tubes a try again. If you find an old Silver Seven, give it a listen.
Hope that adds helpfully to the above members experiences.
* Have some fun. Play with input LTP current matching of a bi-polar vs a FET input.
PS. yea, the old MK 3's had good transformers. Toss in modern caps, clean up the heater power and they might still be competitive. Then play with the grid resister values to tune to taste. (See VTL documentation) Old CJ MV50 was similar.
I owned those speakers a few years back. I tried a few tube amps but the best matchup was a SS Musical Fidelity M6PRX Power Amp. If I were to go with a tube amp I try a Linear Tube Audio ZOTL40.
My 2 cents from someone who owns tube amps and that my system sounds pretty good. First make sure that your DAC has an high output voltage 6V it’s ideally but no less than 4V, this will make your requiere less watts to drive those speakers. Second I will recommend going for Audio Research, for me those are some of the best tubes Amps and you can find a lot of used ones here. I owned also the MC275 from McIntosh and it’s a great amp but depending on the model ARC could be a better amp. There are so many options in the market I will recommend you to listen to them before buying anything because at the end we all have different tastes.
The OP could buy a nicely restored pair of Dynaco MKIII's for less than $2K. With 60 + watts of 6550 power no problem with his speakers! I have the Paoli-modded pair!
A used Pass Labs 1st watt 25 WPC in pure class A would work just fine and give nice detail and warmth with plenty of power on tap ,I used with87 db Dynaudio speakers . Plenty of good reviews.
I considered myself a detail whore and digital fiend for most of my life until I discovered how tube amps are 'supposed' to sound, and it took about $120k to finally get to the most basic setup I've ever had. I now have a Sonos Port feeding through a cardas clear spidf to a Synthesis A40Virtus tube amp/dac combo feeding to a pair of Wilson Duette IIs ans literally bnothing else. I've had $10k DACs, pricier amps, name brand streamers, crazy expensive sound cards, etc, etc. Nothing touches this, and, finally, I feel settled. What a crazy road it's been.
I have recently discovered Synthesis Amps and really couldn't be happier. They get virtually no attention in the name brand world and little in the way of reviews, but, honestly, after owning systems between $30-60k, I can honestly say my A40 Virtus blows everything else away.
To be fair, I am a vocal, acoustic lover; so, the warmth is welcome, and these produce a fat, Juicy sound, but, somehow, do not feel muddy or over colored - just full. And, I have probably the very worst spaces to listen (an enclosed porch full of glass and a cubed room with nothing but hard surfaces).
I've no horse in this race, but, for someone who's spent an insane amount of money (for a mailman, anyway), the rabbit hole has led me to abandon my Denafrips Terminator Plus 12th and a Classe' SIGMA AmpII in favor of this Amp/Dac combo - which doesn't even make sense on paper, I know; still, I couldn't be happier.
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