gives me pause is that as I understand it, you put them on with adhesiveNope. Apart from the odd felt mat, I've not heard nor used any adhesive on mats.
They all sound different. And many will require raising the arm to keep the same VTA.
I'm a Dummy, Tell Me About Turntable Mats
Turntable mats seem to be an inexpensive way to improve a component, but the thing that gives me pause is that as I understand it, you put them on with adhesive. Is there a possibility that a turntable would be damaged by a turntable mat?
If it's relevant at all, the turntable I'm thinking of using a mat on is a Sota Comet III bought used.
If it's relevant at all, the turntable I'm thinking of using a mat on is a Sota Comet III bought used.
56 responses Add your response
They are all different. They all affect the sound, but in rather different ways. In addition to whatever they do in terms of vibration effects they also add thickness and change VTA and so will change the sound that way unless you correct VTA. Because they are all different and because all platters and tables are different it is very hard to predict what mat will work on your table unless someone else with the same table has used it, and even then you need to know what it did and not just that it was "better". So good luck. The one mat I would pay money for is Origin Live. All Mark Bakers stuff that I have tried is excellent. The mat is thin, only about 1mm and deceptively sophisticated in material and construction. Most mats are just one material, felt or whatever, all the way through. This is a simplistic view of vibration control at best. What you want is something firm but not super hard at the surface, because otherwise anything soft will suck a bit of dynamics. But not too hard or it reflects them back. Ideally vibrations from the record flow through the mat into the platter and not back into the record. This is the goal. Equally important is this happen uniformly regardless of frequency. Most mats (most materials period) absorb or reflect different frequencies differently. This inevitably leads to tonal imbalances that distort the natural timbre of instruments. In other words they sound tilted up, or damped, or in some way have a signature of their own. You don't want this. But you get it with most mats. So those are the basics. You have a good table. I would get a Origin Live Cartridge Enabler before would mess around with a mat. Cheaper and guaranteed to be impressively effective. Or both at once. Or both and the belt. Belt compliance has a similar effect on tone and dynamics. But that is just me. Good luck! |
Other poster mentioned record weight. You said dummy, so in case you don't know, he meant one of these (other less costly ones exist) https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-At618-Disc-Stabilizer/dp/B00008B5DZ/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&ke... Definitely get one if you don't use one, for any mat, existing or new. |
You can always remove adhesive from the materials used for platters. Lacquer thinner will take it right off. The way the record is clamped to the turntable is more important than the mat. The mat should be firm, have a depression for the label and be 113/4 " in diameter, just under that of the record so that the records lip hangs over. There are two decent ways to clamp the record down. The first is reflex clamping. A thin washer is placed over the spindle and the camp only contacts the record at the rim of the label. This flexes the record into the mat. The best example is the Sota reflex clamp. SME and Kuzma tables come with reflex clamps. The second is vacuum clamping which requires a turntable design for it. With reflex clamping you do not need a rim or ring clamp. Ring clamps do not work well and are bulky and difficult to use. I have seen records and turntables damaged by them. They are also additional mass on the bearing. They will not work with any end of record auto lift that I know of. |
MC very graciously nailed it. They all DO sound different plus other considerations like static buildup (felt.) Start with one of these: Acrylic Turntable Mat - Black - LP Slipmat with Record Label Recess https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0727PT125/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_fabc_J790KRJNDH1AJXQNW014 Free returns if it doesn’t do it for ya. Then you can decide if you wanna chance almost 2.5 times the cost on: https://www.originlive.com/shop/upgrade-platter-mat.html Happy listening to you. Adhesive is a non issue with proper solvents. Methyl ketone in lacquer thinner should be a last resort. It will remove a lot more than just adhesive. Plastic, polished finishes, living cells, etc. As Zappa said "coocoorotya." |
as I understand it, you put them on with adhesive.Some do, some don't. One of my favorites, the pad made by Oracle, uses an adhesive. The function of the mat is to control resonance generated in the vinyl by the act of the cartridge tracking. If you can hear the cartridge tracking the vinyl with the volume all the way down, that's a bad sign, and also a way to let you know how effective your mat really is. The mat should also therefore be able to damp the platter as well. If the mat is too hard or too soft, it will introduce a coloration. The correct durometer is that of the vinyl itself. This is why felt and metals both do not work right, although felt is often used because it can act like a clutch during DJ work. |
A little off-topic, but I always found it interesting (curious??) that VPI does not endorse TT mats on their tables. Last table I bought shipped without one; when I reached out to them for one, they kind of tried to “talk me out of” needing one. But in the end, they will send upon request. Just a little weird, IMO. Jim |
I use a Stein music mat on my MMf-7.3...it is a super thin mat and causes no issue with VTA. To me, it sounds great...it ought to at $249! Also have the Origin Live mat, but have not used it yet. I originally had, actually still have, the original Ring Mat. It is also a great mat imo. Lastly, I have several leather/suede mats from Hide in the sound, they are a nice economical mat. On my Technics mk7, I am using a KabUSA glass platter mat combined with a technics thin rubber mat...also have a Herbies mat for this table. |
If your goal is to absorb all resonant energy from the LP, then you want a platter surface and/or a mat that most mimics vinyl in its physical characteristics. For that, Delrin is a good choice. But other materials work too. However, if it was as simple as absorbing and dissipating resonant energy in the LP, then everyone by now would have agreed that vinyl-like materials are indisputably the best. As you can see, this isn't the case. In my own opinion, you have to try a variety of different mats made of different materials, and then decide for yourself. I daresay, the same mat might affect the sound of one LP differently from that of another LP. Worrying about that would be a nightmare. |
I have the following mats, Funk Achromat, Soundeck, Herbie's Way Excellent II, and some of the stock mats that came with my tables. When I had my VPI Classic 2 I didn't use a mat. Same with a couple of tables that had acrylic platters. I can't tell major differences between them. The only one that I tried that had a significant impact on sound was a deerskin mat that I saw some people raving about. It made things sound kind of dead. I don't recommend it. I wouldn't worry about the adhesive. The Achromat mat has adhesive, but I doubt I'll ever take it off. The Herbie's mat is kind of sticky, but no adhesive. |
Can I just say that even such illustrious decks as the Air Force One have platter mat options… like cartridges they can be a matter of taste. I am personally trying to get a modern equivalent of the oil filled Sony mat OL 2K for my TTS 8000. I know of many that swear by the copper Micro Seiki - Artisan Fidelity will charge you $995 for a new pure copper equivalent.. |
Then there’s the Resomat, which suspends the LP in air above a solid surface, supported only on the tips of rubbery points that are fastened to the mat surface. The result is pretty much the exact opposite of the philosophy of absorbing resonant energy from the LP. The LP is left to deal with the resonant energy on its own. Many users swear by that. |
I’d avoid record mats that can deposit debris like felt. Earlier I tried researching record mats and for me the results weren't clear cut for my turntable. However, I’m going to purchase the Stein Music Pi Signature Record Mat which received TAS 2021 Golden Ear Award by TAS Executive Editor Jonathan Valin whom I well respect. He reviews the top (expensive) gear and has an Uber audio system. |
...continuing Online research many mats seemed to change the sound not necessarily for the better. But the Stein Music mat seems to advance sonics in many areas without any tradeoffs or colorations: TAS 2021 Golden Ear Award by TAS Executive Editor Jonathan Valin https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/steinmusic-pi-carbon-signature-record-mat |
@atmasphere, all that is very true. However, it the record is not firmly coupled to the mat it does not make much difference. The weight of the record is not enough aside from the fact that few records are perfectly flat. I just ran a little experiment for fun. The stylus noise is easily twice as loud with the vacuum defeated as against the vacuum on! It is just barely audible with the vacuum on and my ear right next to the record. This is with a record of standard thickness. The stylus noise test not only picks up noise generated by a vibrating record but also from a vibrating tonearm. |
To not use a mat, a platter must be made with relief for the thicker parts of a record in order for the read surface to have its best chance of coupling with the platter. FWIW, I typically NEVER use a mat on Delrin or acrylic platters. Had lots of success with the 5mm thick Achromat on suspended vintage Thorens, AR & Linn tables (2-piece platters) all with good grip and no slipping. Have had slipping on Rega one piece platters which required thin double-sided (carpet) tape to grip. The current Luxman mat is a sweetheart on every high mass design system I’ve tried it on. Record weight &/or clamps NOT required. |
Mijo, This "stylus noise" to which you refer, are you talking about the faint echo of the musical signal that one can often hear if your ear is close to the playing surface? That's the only noise I typically hear, and it's due to the microphonic nature of a cartridge. I am guessing you are talking about some other type of noise, but I don't know what. |
Vertere Technomat. About $130. http://http//www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0721/Vertere_Techno_Mat_Review.htm |
I knew there would eventually be the usual opinions here. I have one. 96.73% of the time they change the sound but don't improve it. I always wondered if HW was having a little fun at the expense of the rubes when he added a piece of very thin brown parchment paper as a platter mat with his decks. Platter mats, periphery rings and center weights all change the sound. Mats the most, periphery rings the least, center clamps/weights in the middle. Once your ears and brain become accustomed to the change they don't add anything to ultimate enjoyment. This is not what most vinyl enthusiasts want to believe, so they won't. The biggest benefit of platter mats is to enable those with VTA/SRA problems-those that can't go low enough-to achieve proper VTA/SRA. I think Herbie's caught onto this. |
@lewm, it is not an echo. It sounds like a very high frequency copy of the music. What is vibrating can not emit anything from maybe 6 kHz down. I'm just guessing. With the vacuum engaged I can just barely make out cymbals. With the record loose it is 2X louder and I can make out a little more. It is still very quiet. You have to put your ear next the rim of the record to hear it. I remember my old Zenith which I got when I was 4 years old. I use to marvel how I could hear the music with the volume turned down. It was pretty loud. You could hear it across the room. Remember the old Victrolas? They had a sowing needle in a shank fixed by a grub screw. The shank was attached to a diaphragm in the throat of a horn. Same thing but no diaphragm or horn. You are hearing whatever is vibrating. The less you hear the better is the control over distributed resonance from the stylus and cantilever vibrating. The cavity around the stylus can act as a horn which is why many manufacturers stick the cantilever out in thin air. That resonance is reflected back at the cantilever to be heard. You really only want to listen to the record. Nothing else. The best record playing set ups hardly make any noise at all. There may be a few out there that make no noise at all. I have never heard one make absolutely no noise but I have heard a few get very close. Just don't laugh when you see a guy with a tonearm stuck in his ear. The point of all this is, the job of a turntable mat is to help control resonance. It is to help keep the record from vibrating under the stylus. Because records are not flat a mat can not do it alone. People figured that out and started using record weights, then record clamps, then taking a lesson from record lathes, vacuum clamping. I am comfortable with saying that vacuum clamping is overall the best. I do not know if it sounds better than reflex clamping but it does results in the best control over the record with the least effort and stress on the record. |
If your definition of record noise is “a high frequency copy of the music” then we’re probably both talking about the same phenomenon. I find it varies in audibility in relation to cartridge output voltage magnitude. I have always felt it comes with the territory, and I pay no attention to it, because my listening seat is far enough away from the turntable that I never hear it while I am trying to concentrate on what is coming out of the speakers. What’s the big deal? |
@lewm, It is not really record noise. You are hearing the mechanical system of the record/stylus/cantilever/tonearm vibrating. Ideally, all the energy spent in moving the stylus should be translated into an electrical signal. Some is turned into heat and some is turned into noise. The noise is a problem because it reflects back on the structures creating it which you theoretically can hear amplified along with the music. Let us call this "tracking noise." Tracking noise has been mentioned by others as a measure of the quality of the playback system. Certainly, those old ceramic needles were very loud and I remember my fathers old Rec O Cut with its old Empire cartridge was easily audible 3-4 feet away. My current combination is very quiet but my main point is that clamping the record properly makes an obvious improvement. I had a Transcriptors turntable at one point decades ago, the one that set the record on 6 brass weights. I hated it. It was pitiful in comparison to an LP12. I blamed the platter for that. I'm sure Chakster and Rauliruegas can comment on this. |
Mijo, You wrote, "It is not really record noise. You are hearing the mechanical system of the record/stylus/cantilever/tonearm vibrating." How does that contradict anything I wrote? Moreover, your statement itself is a bit contradictory internally (to say it is not "record noise", which was your term, not mine, and then define it as in part due to mechanical energy due to the record, along with the other factors you name). Anyway, I view it as a "problem" endemic to vinyl reproduction, and it probably varies all over the place based on the tonearm design and construction and the cartridge design and construction, and I have better things to worry about. Is there any test or are there any measurements that correlate SQ with reduction of this "noise"? In other words, if you believe it to be undesireable, what does one do to reduce it, and does that result in better SQ? |
It’s called stylus jitter. https://youtu.be/F65mODzn4Gk?t=778Yes the problem is endemic. Yes it varies all over the place just like you said. I just bought a SG200 so hopefully will hear all the wonderful benefits PL talks about here. |
A Turntable has many options on how to create a differing interface between the Stylus > LP > Platter, in which most cases a Platter Mat is the Option, even though there are some other methods used of which some users are convinced works for the better in their set ups and environment, Focusing on a Platter Mat, there are a large variety of materials from Paper to Metal, as well as identical materials produced in a different thickness. Each material type will be used to perform one function only, which is to create a Layer in a construction. A Typical Construction being a Rack/Shelf > Footers > Sub Plinth > Footers > Plinth > with the Typical additional attachments being Turntable Chassis > Platter > Tonearm. A Tonearm receives a Cartridge as the fastened attachment and the Platter usually receives a Platter Mat, which is most commonly laid on the Platter without any method the fasten it. A Platter Mat can have a profound effect on a presentation, there are interfaces created using certain materials where the perception of the replay is immediately detected as being a detractor, and the loss of detail and smearing of information is quite noticeable. There are also interfaces created using certain materials where the performance is detected as being an attractor, the information retrieval is quite impressive and there is also a perception of realism and honesty that are quite noticeable. I am not sure if there is a ubiquitous mat material that offers the same properties in all set ups and environments, as I have had exceptional results with certain mat materials in my own system, and when these and other owned mat materials have been loaned into other systems the impressions were changed and other mat materials had been given favour. It is really a case of turnover of mat materials until the most impressive one is discovered. In the case of myself and most people I know with a TT, Rubber and Felt Mats are not usually maintained, they are exchanged for other mat types. |
I pay no attention to it, because my listening seat is far enough away from the turntable that I never hear it while I am trying to concentrate on what is coming out of the speakers. What’s the big deal? Anyway, I view it as a "problem" endemic to vinyl reproduction, and it probably varies all over the place based on the tonearm design and construction and the cartridge design and construction,@lewm Its a problem due to poor platter pad design, because most people don’t have an idea how important the role of the platter pad actually is. People do seem to have noticed that they change the sound; since that is true it follows that there is something going on that’s worth actually applying some engineering time to sort it all out. I’ve explained what’s going on with this any time this subject has come up. The resonance of the LP as the stylus tracks it **has** to be controlled, else the system simply won’t be neutral! The stylus has to get things right- you can’t fix it downstream. If the LP resonates as the stylus tracks it, that energy talks back to the stylus, reducing clarity and increasing harshness. IOW the platter pad is pretty important to getting things right, much more so than most people seem to realize. |
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That is why the Origin Live Mat works so well. This is an engineered material with different characteristics at the record/mat than mat/platter. The goals are to avoid reflecting vibration back up into the LP, to absorb/dissipate them in the material, and to do all this uniformly across the full range of frequency and dynamics. Simply felt or rubber mats just aren't up to the task. The best they can do is make a few areas better at the cost of making some other areas worse. In other words like Ralph says they will not be neutral. |
Thank you atmasphere, I think you said it better than I. Lew, I know of no hard data that says it is a definitive sonic problem. We both know it exists because we hear it directly. If we hear it the assumption would be the stylus does also. I apologize if I contradicted myself. But it is useful to define our terms so we all know what we are talking about. Record noise is what you hear in the background behind the music including dirt and scratches. Let us say that tracking noise is the noise generated directly by the stylus tracking the record which in all respects is just like that diaphragm in the Victrola. The mat has to dampen the resonance without reflecting it back. IMHO the record has to be held down tightly as the mat is not doing it's job if the record is partially in the air. I think the fact that disabling the vacuum increases tracking noise is telling. You use the Sota reflex clamp which performs the same function as long as you are using that washer over the spindle. Keep your amp off and listen to the tracking noise with and without the clamp. See if you get the same results I did. |
new sota mat has same impedance as the LP….. something Ralph can appreciate from an engineering perspective… in general all mats / clamps are flavorizers…. approximate the record lathe cutter to disc to platter relationship and neutrality might be achieved… however that doesn’t happed at lacquer test… Bob L uses a Brinkmann w special glass platter and a unique clamp… what does R say….music not distortions.. ? |
I have the utmost respect for Ralph of Atma-Sphere on most topics, but I do tend to disagree with him on vinyl playback. IIRC, Ralph thinks a top version of a Technics 1200 with stock arm is pretty much as high as one needs to go with a turntable. Contrast that with Harry Weisfeld who's made some more ambitious decks (admittedly I am no longer much of a VPI fan) and he advocates for no mat at all on his massive aluminum alloy platters, even with his relatively unstable unipivots! I have tried a ton of mats with my Reed 3P's and various high-end cartridges. On my aluminum with copper top Steve Dobbs platter on my 301 I have found that no mat is just as good if not better than any mat. Copper has good qualities of it's own which explains why some platter mats are copper. On the massive platter being used on my TD124 I have a carbon fiber mat that I have kept on for no particular reason-the same deck sounds just as good with no mat. I bet I have five other mats that no longer see any use at all from Merrill, Herbies, and others. I think of Malachai-the on-again and off-again apprentice of Mike Fremer who with his humble Pro-Ject deck has repeatedly exclaimed the value of his various mats. https://www.analogplanet.com/content/malachis-mat-mishegas-felt-mats-rega-pro-ject-and-audio-technic... For. those that don't know basic Yiddish, "mishegas" means craziness. The idea that a record resonates due to a tiny stylus modulating in a groove and that said resonant vibrations feed back into the stylus as the stylus continues to trace further into the groove-further than the creation of the inciting grooves/vibrations-is just that-an idea. An unproven mental pre-conception. As I said before, mats will change the sound. The issue is whether they improve the sound and that is subjective and system dependent. In general a mat is going to somewhat deaden the sound, but by only a very slight degree. I have found-and this is just my humble opinion-that when a platter gets incredibly massive and is coupled with a somewhat "cushy" mat, record weight or clamp, and periphery ring, all these things will slow down the sound, turning it from lively to anything but. For maximum liveliness/dynamics/propulsive punch, go naked. Record right on platter, no other mishegas. |
@fsonicsmith, most people would think this is all mishegas, even those of the not so Jewish persuasion. Just why do you think mats change the sound? Could it be because they dampen the record in differing ways? If so would they be dampening some sort of resonance? Where would you guess that is coming from? Turn off your amp and play a record. Put your ear down next to the rim. What do you hear? Is sound vibration? What is the job of a phonograph cartridge? Is it not a vibration detection device? Sei Gesund, Mike |
Just why do you think mats change the sound? Could it be because they dampen the record in differing ways? If so would they be dampening some sort of resonance? Where would you guess that is coming from?I knew I would get this type of response as I was typing what I typed. Substitute "deaden" for "dampen" and I can answer your question. Too heavy of a platter vis a vis the motor and bearing deadens the sound because of they-the motor and bearing-are over-loaded. Imagine a diesel tractor chugging up a hill with a heavy load. The same applies to adding too much weight and sound absorption with a cushioned mat and weights. You can insist in calling it "dampening" if you wish. Speaking of vehicles, imagine a Porsche 911 loaded up with four 350 lb occupants. Besides the grotesqueness of the mental image, would you call the driving quality-besides being blatantly dangerous-"damped" or "dead". |
I think Ralph would opt for replacing the stock G series tonearm (are they all the same tonearm, regardless of cost?) with a Triplanar, if he had his druthers. what this discussion suggests is that most don’t like heavy floppy rubber mats, most prefer either a metal mat (copper or other) or a mat that attempts to match the energy impedance of vinyl. I have 5 TTs up and running. I use metal mats on 2, copper or SAEC SS300, and Boston Audio graphite mats on the other 3. The latter approximates vinyl. SQ is mainly sensitive to cartridge choice and tonearm, not to the particular mat. But that’s because I’ve already gone through the process of selecting mats for each, I like to think. I’d be very interested to hear from anyone who uses a Resomat or similar. |
I can’t define tracking noise but I know it when I hear it. Except I’m not even sure of that.@lewm Make sure you turn the volume all the way down, so you can only hear the mechanical sound of the cartridge playing the vinyl. The quieter it is, the better the platter pad, in a nutshell. @fsonicsmith You have mis-characterized my comments about the Technics, just so you know. I think its a very good deal. But I have a Triplanar on mine, as I feel the machine's weak points are the arm and the platter pad. Equipped with the Triplanar and a very different mat, it does an excellent job in comparison to my master tapes. |
@fsonicsmith You have mis-characterized my comments about the Technics, just so you know. I think its a very good deal. But I have a Triplanar on mine, as I feel the machine's weak points are the arm and the platter pad. Equipped with the Triplanar and a very different mat, it does an excellent job in comparison to my master tapes.It was not intentional. I have already been corrected above by lewm. I do apologize. I have no doubt that a 1200 variant with a Triplanar arm can be a David amongst the Goliaths when it comes to price/performance. That is somewhat similar to my personal philosophy and yet paradoxically worlds apart. My hot rodded vintage idlers are night and day from a modern DD but I do focus on the arm and cartridge rather than the drive. And more to the point I continue to disagree that mats make a significant qualitative upgrade in SQ. Perhaps we should have a fun well-intentioned intellectual debate about the price/performance ratio of this https://www.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-shun-mook-audio-lp-clamp-legendary-record-weight-the-be... |
It was not intentional.@fsonicsmith I didn't get the impression is was. I just though I should point out the issue, since the 'table is quite different if you have a good arm on it. As far as the mat goes, its pretty easy to demonstrate with nothing more than a few different mats and a turntable that you can hear differences. You don't need amps or speakers for that. What a weight or clamp brings to the 'table (if you see what I did there...) is helping to keep the LP in contact with the mat so it can more effectively control resonance in the LP. Vacuum works even better, but the vacuum system I had damaged a lot of records (ticks and pops due to dirt pressed into the grooves on the backside of the LP; this was over 20 years ago) so on that account I've stayed away from vacuum systems. The problem as I see it is that many aftermarket platter pads are no better than the one that they replace. So you get variable results. But if you hear one that actually does what its supposed to (as I described earlier) then there is no going back. |
