How to choose an upgraded tonearm.

@skyscraper

The problem you have is that the Classic 2 was designed as an integrated package and changing arms is going to be difficult.

On most TT’s you would have a removable arm board, and when choosing an arm you would find the spindle to pivot distance and check to see if the arm will fit on your turntable. In you case you have a mounting distance to the VTA tower - slightly different to pivot to spindle.

If the tonearm doesn’t fit then you may end up drilling new holes in the plinth and devaluing the TT for future sales.

It seems to me the most logical choice you have is the VPI FB10 Gimbal arm which uses the same base as your current arm.

The problem is that @ $4.5k for the VPI FB10 there are far better arms available for that spend -

2 examples are

Kuzma 4Point9 ( 9" arm ) - probably won’t fit without drilling the plinth.

Reed 2G/4P - The Reed arms have a 10.5" option with pivot to spindle and VTA tower very similar to the VPI. Might possibly fit.

In my view you really have only 3 practical options -

Instal the dual pivot upgrade

Purchase the VPI FB10 Gimbal arm ( sell the unipvot ).

Buy another TT which gives you a wider arm choice.

 

 

 

 

Mike, a tonearm has to deal with specific issues and to do so has to be designed correctly. I suggest you watch this as it is a great primer on tonearm design

 

adjustments

@skyscraper  A proper tonearm has to be neutral balance and have all the necessary adjustments for VTA, VTF, Azimuth, Antiskate and overhang. It has to hold the cartridge tightly and only allow it two degrees of freedom. The Vertical bearing should be at the level of the record and it's bearings should be of the highest quality. The tonearms that meet these requirement are the Reed 2G, the Schroder CB, the Tri Planar, the Kuzma 4 Points and a few of the Origin Live arms. I'm sure I am missing a few but the video above shows you what to look for. Stick with 9 or 10 inch arms. Going longer hampers performance in bad ways. Your Kleos will perform at it's best in any of the above arms. I have the Schroder and love it. The only qualm I have with it is that I wish it were supplied with at least one other counterbalance weight. The one supplied will not cover lighter cartridges like the Soundsmith. Your Kleos will be fine with the one that comes with the arm. I think the 4 point 9 is the best value in a high performance arm out there. The Reed and Tri Planar arms are also top performers but more expensive. 

One thing is for sure. You are going to love your Kleos! - Mike

Dover, thanks for that information on the Classic 2 tonearm’s design as an integrated unit. Sounds problematic to say the least.

I will most likely be installing the VPI dual pivot mod to hold me over until such time as I can afford to get a tonearm. But now I’m hoping that will do the trick by itself. $4500 seems like a lot to spend a tonearm. It comes in at more than the Classic 2 turntable’s cost, and more than the Lyra Kleos cost too. I’m getting sticker shock and this is only the first reply on this thread. Up until a few days ago I hadn’t even been considering a new tonearm.

I looked uo the tonearms you recommended,, They both come in at over $5000. I might just have to do without if that’s all that’s available to fit the Classic 2’s tonearm base.

Mike

Mike, 

Remember that "gut" feeling I talked about. 

Regards,

Tim

Reed tonearms and the Triplanar are all surface mount designs, so it is possible you could mount one of those without having to drill any new holes, except small ones for screw fasteners. You’d have to analyze on a case by case basis.

Mijostyn, I’ll take a look at all the tonearms you mentioned. Will any of them fit the Classic 2 with my having to drill it out do you know?

What difference do you get with sound quailty using various tonearms to include the ones you mention and chose between? I can’t imagine you get the same improvements in sound quality that you might if you invested equal money into a better cartridge or speakers..

After reading an article on this subject, I started thinking the cartridge might have a much larger impact on sound quality than maybe any other component other than the speakers. And that made me think the Ortofon 2M Black was mismatched with the rest of my system. I could be totally wrong, but that thought led me to invest in the Lyra Kleos, a much higher priced and quality cartridge than I might have otherwise considered., Do you think that may be true or is that way off?

The video was interesting and informative, By the way, since my carpentry skills outshine my audio ones, notice the Stanley hammer the video’s host was using to pound on the turntable was definitely low end and not up to his demo. Any decent Estwing hammer would have made the needle fly out of the record’s tracks in a hot flash..

Thanks again for your help. Can’t wait for the Kleos to arrive in about three months or so.

Mike

You possibly could feel "set" for a good while until you feel comfortable making another considerable investment in a new table/arm. 

It will unquestionably be a big sonic upgrade on the stock arm.

The VPI long haulers have used Lyra's pre 3d/gimbal with no complaints.

You might want to shoot an email/call VPI about what the options are with doing an aftermarket arm for the Classic. Getting insight from them on what's involved will help you decide new arm  get a new rig.

Don't forget to fully exploit the capabilities of the Kleos, a "proper" outboard phono stage is something to consider.

I definitely wouldn’t bolt another brand arm to the VPI Classic table. It will affect resale value, too. You’ll be fine with either the dual pivot mod alone, or a new Gimbal 3D arm. A middle option might be a regular 3D+Reference arm plus dual pivot? I’m not entirely familiar with the VPI universe, but I know that I like the 3D+Reference w/ dual pivot in a friend’s rig (on a really nice HR-X there).

When you get to considering the Gimbal Fatboy 3D investment, you also need to consider whether to stick with the VPI or move to something else - that’s your chance to move to another brand arm. You have a lot of decent moves you can take, and you can take even make some of the incrementally. That’s probably why you’re suffering analysis paralysis! Try to step back a minute and have fun again :)

I found out the hard way that the choice of table sometimes dictates the choice of arm. In my case, the Linn LP12 restricts one to a very limited choice of arm. ( This is by far the most annoying thing about Linn ownership). Unfortunately, the same thing goes for the OP’s table...very limiting when it comes to arm choice.

If I owned a VPI Classic model, I would look to the best VPI tonearm available, ( the FatBoy?) and call it a day..unless willing to chuck the VPI and go with another table altogether.

 

BTW, I am actually a strong believer in the Linn hierarchy...which states that the best SQ comes from the following order of importance..1) Table ( and its subset of components)  2) Arm and lastly 3) Cartridge. 

Tablejockey- what are you referring to with "Lyra’s pre 3d/gimbal"? I tried googling that but came up empty. There’s no 3D gimbal on the VPI or Lyra site I could find. I would like to look it up since you mention it. That’s a good idea to call VPI .about other aftermarket tonearms that may work on their tables. I tried them a couple days ago but no one was around to talk to.

Mulveling, I do need to learn about tonearms first, as I really know little to nothing about them. It might be hard to believe, and my wife never could, how much I enjoy engaging in the analysis part of any search or project, When I haven’t the disposable cash to make a new purchase it’s the perfect time for that too.

I looked up the Gimbal Fatboy you mentioned That;s anoher one in the $4000 plus range. There must be some good gimbal arm for half that which might fit the VPI Classic 2, maybe not.

I will be sticking with the VPI Classic 2 as I’ve other things I’d like to be doing other than fiddling around with continued and expensive audio upgrades,. Heck, I kept my B&O Beogram 4002 turntable for forty years and was perfectly happy with it until kept breaking down So I figure to keep the VPI table until I’m at least age 107 then do another turntable upgrade. By the same token If I do drill some holes in the Classic 2’s base, it’ll be my heirs who take a loss on that, so no worries there.

Mike

Daveyf, I am still curious about what sonic differences an arm can make. Any input on that, you or anyone out there?.

I sure hope I’m not strictly limited to expensive VPI tonearms, but maybe that is the case like with your Linn. I really hate the thought of putting an additional $4-5,000 into a tonearm. But maybe that’s the only realistic option to get the best out of the Lyra Kleos. Maybe the dual pivot will help wring enough out of the Kleos with my current tonearm to make this a minor issue. We’ll see. 

I would wait and fit the Kleos to the current arm but do use antiskate, VPI are wrong about that. Lyra specify a VTF that aligns the coil optimally in the field of their magnet system but if the coil is displaced laterally by the wrong or no antiskate that’s a bit of a waste of time. The other problem is a VTF that varies as the arm swings in the vertical plane because when adjusted the centre of gravity is at a point below and in front of the pivot point.. If you measure VTF at anything but the height of the playing surface your measurement will be wrong. You will also find that VTF needs readjusting after changing VTA. So VTF as well as VTA will differ with record thickness, unless you have the micrometer tower and readjust for each record. I used to run  a Naim Aro with a Transfiguration cartridge, another with ring magnets and set VTA and VTF by ear but used measurement to keeps track of changes, even though to get around 2.1g at the record my scales were reading 2.44g. There is a hand and sensitive spirit level that comes with an Aro and can be placed on the flat topped cup above the pivot to keep an eye on VTA and azimuth, the VPI has the armleads in the way. Some would resort to a USB microscope to set SRA directly, I’ve never tried. Your ears should be the final arbiter.

Where the unipivots tend to win out is eliminating the grain from the sound, if they don’t blow it by having low pressure metal to metal contact elsewhere in their design, like the Aro has with its standard counterweight but even there the effect is less than most gimbal arms. @mijostyn uses a Schröder CB which magnetically stabilises its bearing races and has a well damped armtube too. The 4point tries for a gimbal like bearing with high pressure point contacts and the Triplanar uses very high spec bearings to try to have the best of both worlds. The Well Tempered LTD is another attempt to address this and there are a couple of other string based designs, one of which I now use, and like mijostyn’s CB also from Schröder, in the form of his Reference arm.This uses a very strong magnet to keep a piece of string under high tension but the magnets are shaped to maintain a neutral balance effect. 

Incidently @mijostyn I had a similar problem with my Schröder counterweight being too heavy for the Dynavector 17D3 I wanted to fit but found that the brass cartridge mounting plate option, which adds around 5g over the aluminium one, got round that. The effective mass of around 18g wasn’t a problem despite the compliance of the DV.

@yeti42 , unfortunately, the heavy plate took the tonearm mass up too high for the cartridges I currently have. Schroder does have optional weights but since I have a lath and brass rod is easy to order I made several weights of various sizes. The only clue that they are not from Schroder is that the color of the brass I used is a shade darker. Going to the lighter weight lower's the arms mass and limits inertia improving the arm's tracking. I put a really warped record on which defeated the vacuum clamping and the Schroder danced beautifully, many arms would have gone airborne. 

My own opinion on unipivot arms is a lot more dismal than yeti42's. Unless you are talking about either the Basis or Graham arms I strongly advise against Unipivot arms. Both of these arms are overpriced and the Basis is really a bipivot arm. The Graham is a magnetically stabilized unipivot. IMHO the arms I mentioned perform just as well or better and are much more realistically priced.

The Lyra Lambda cartridges are designed so that their coils are in perfect alignment at the recommended tracking force and anti skating. Which intuitively would seem to be of obvious benefit but, a well designed magnetic system will provide a very uniform field strength across the gap between the poles. The only cartridge alignment would be critical would be the VDH cartridges that do away with the front pole piece. While there might be a benefit with the shorter cantilever this allows I personally do not care for the design but I have not listened to one so I should keep my mouth shut, a trait I am obviously not proficient at.  

@skyscraper , for what it is worth, Jonathan Carr has made comments in his marketing that would indicate that he does not like his cartridges in unipivot arms. You have to look at the tonearm and cartridge as one unit. They have to work together to do the job correctly. Any of these arms will seriously outperform what you are using now and will work great with Lyra cartridges. Will you hear the difference? There is no way I can know that. It depends on your sensitivity  and your situation, system, setup, room, etc. I can tell you with my system and my ears there is no contest. 

@mulveling , you can bolt any tonearm to any table assuming there is enough real estate. It might take some machining and cleverness but it can be done. My favorite way is to re-machine the tonearm area to accept a removable tonearm board. If you pick the right arm you may actually improve resale value. 

I’ve run my SPU Royal N at ~3g and on my worst wavy warped records it’s failed to leave the groove or even produce audible mis tracking. As I mentioned above My arm in its heaviest form has an effective mass of 18g, the cartridge and adaptor weigh 15.7g and the quite long brass screws a bit over 2g so there is around 36g countering the 8μm/Nm @10Hz compliance. If the cartridge is becoming airborne then there’s a mismatch. My Decca Maroon in the Aro would be an example of the latter and that did leave the groove without a bit more mass at the headshell.

As the VPI arm is in hand put it to the test before contemplating replacing it, assuming you do your own setting  up and you’ll gain experience. It at least gives you a baseline.

"what are you referring to with "Lyra’s pre 3d/gimbal"? 

skyscraper,

I am referring to 8 or so years ago, BEFORE VPI developed the 3D and gimbal designs. VPI users mounting upper end Lyra's on their tables with standard arms.

You may have better luck with contact via Email info@vpiindustries.com

Maybe there is an arm board for aftermarket arms VPI offers? Another thing you can ask VPI about is if they have a gimbal blem/2nd's for discount.

I have had contact with Matt and he offered me a 3D.  I passed. Wasn't a big enough discount for me to jump. I probably could have negotiated a better deal for it, but wasn't that inspired at the moment. 

Yeti42. I’ll make sure the person doing the set up reconnects the anti-skating. Thank you for that advice. After trying to absorb all the knowledge you’ve imparted about different tonearms, it’s obvious you and Mijostyn both need to move here to Virginia to take care of this. Amazing and impressive. how much you know about various cartridges and the like..

I did do the set uo on my Ortofon 2M Black, but would likely be in over my head setting up the Lyra Kleos, even though valuable experience would be gained as you said. I’ll figure out how to install the VPI dual pivot mod, but that’s about the limit.in this arena.

Mijostyn, ,impressive you know how to do machining and can apply that skill to audio applications. I’ve been thinking on taking a course on machining and acquiring enough skill to facilitate restoring vintage woodworking machines, another hobby.. I’d love to get a Bridgeport, a nice lathe and some other equipment, But I’m getting off topic.

I’m going to look up all the arms you mentioned on the used market too, even though I don’t prefer to go there. I did see one Schroder CB used for $2000 which wasn’t too bad. I’ll call Matt at VPI and see if any of those you suggested can be retrofitted on the VPI base.

Tablejockey, thanks for the clarification.

Mike

Dear @skyscraper : Up grade the VPI tonearm to " dual pivot " and latter on think not to change the tonearm but the VPI TT/tonearm that in reality is an average/mediocre item.

The posts here said talk of tonearms at around 5K and all those are good options but for a different TT.

 

You could think in this extremely well regarded and " inexpensive " TT/tonearm: the Rega RP10:

 

https://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/rega-rp10-turntable-tonearm

https://www.tonepublications.com/review/rega-rp10-turntable/

 

Mr. M.Fremer review on the 80K+ turntable manufactured by SAT model XD1 he used the SAT 50K+ tonearm and mounted the Lyra Etna Lambda and in that SAT overall review M.Fremer posted:

""

The XD1 shares some sonic characteristics with Rega’s revolutionary RP10 turntable: ultrafast, clean transients throughout the audible frequency range; tight, fast bass; revealing midrange transparency; and overall sonic stability and focus. All these characteristics result, apparently, from careful attention paid to structural rigidity and the removal or prevention of unwanted vibrational energy.

As good as the P10 is, it’s not an SAT XD1. ""

 

and the RP10 set you back the ridiculous 5.5K dollars including the tonearm:

 

 

 

 

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

 

Thank you for your suggestions Raul. I will look all of them up.

Mike

The gentlemans in the " tonepublications " link tested in the RP10 the best Lyra cartridges including the Atlas and the Dynavector XV1-s too in all cases with excellent results.

 

R.

Tonearms are a very attractive item to be used in a System, there is an allure about the device, to the point a LP Replay enthusiast can lose many hours observing the models available.

The Designs and Aesthetics commonly discovered can easily be described as quite a feat of engineering.

The Devise has to offer an extremely precise accuracy in its function and maintain the designed function, when met with many different environments, any changes to properties of materials used within the design, as a result of an environment, has the capability to impact on the performance in a detrimental manner.

Learning about a Tonearms Design Intent and how its consistency in unadulterated function has been the basis for the choosing engineering methods and material selection will be quite a valuable undertaking.

A very nice aesthetic, one that really shouts pride of ownership, is not a compensation for a design that is supplied with deficiencies in place where the engineering and used materials are not optimised. 

What really matters, is what is under the hood, what designs and materials are  being used at the concealed locations, it is quality of thought and work undertaken for the out of sight various interfaces that enables the the magic to happen.       

@skyscraper  : The Lyra cartridge M.Fremer used in his SAT review was not the Etna but the Atlas Lambda SL, go figure ! ! He used too another unique top cartridge that was the Ortofon Century.

 

R.

Pindac, that makes perfect sense. What's under the hood is what counts. 

Mike

I have been following this thread out of interest. I am not a perfectionist, never wanted to be a surgeon or dentist. From my point of view this has danger written all over it. A turntable not built with the idea of being a universal mount for different tone arms, having to carefully match the TT to arm, to cartridge. What could go wrong? This is me… completely. I have an audio dealer that loves working on turntables… obsessed really. I would not touch one.

If I did want to do this. I would trade my VPI (I owned one for 25 years) and get a table made for different arms… then get a known synergistic combination of arm and cartridge. Then work from there.

But for now I’ll stick with my Linn LP12 and the Ekos SE waiting at my dealer to upgrade from my current Akito tone arm. But of course that is me. I am not a competent at such stuff. The sound would be worse if I did it.

@skyscraper

If you keep your table and try the dual pivot, I have a simple, inexpensive tweak that really works. For $10, I’ll sell you a cut to size, adhesive film out of PEEK, ( the same material that’s in a 3D arm pivot cup.) to place on the arm mounting structure where the pivot point makes contact. The amount of noise reduced is easily heard on my Classic 3 Sig SE.

Slaw, I am going to get the dual pivot and would very much appreciate you sending a piece of the PEEK, If you PM your name and address I’ll put a check in the mail to you, My name and the address to send it to will be on the check.

If I remember correctly, some of your suggestions to reduce noise and vibration were incorporated into the shelving built to house my equipment. To good effect your hand print is getting to be all over my system. I’ve been wondering how to mitigate the exact problem the Peek will address. What an excellent idea, and right on time. Thank you,

Mike.

I am with a limited understanding of these concerns, and have purchased known Brand Tonearms in the past that have been based on Brand, Aesthetic and Reputation.

My most recent Tonearm, is a Tonearm Model undergone a redesign, I have learned of many of the above considerations through discussion with the engineer who has produced the design and progressively improved on the micro mechanics of the interfaces.

I have been introduced through discussion and demonstration of how Traditional Materials that are industry go to choices, have been considered to be replaced, and then replaced in exchange for a more up to date modern version of a material that has a design intent to be much improved for the maintaining of stability to the materials properties across different environments.

These purpose produced formulas, especially when produced to work in an environment that might have similar conditions as met when used on a Tonearm Interface.

When combined with a 'state of the art', very modern low viscosity lubrication can show 'real time' benefits when incorporated into a Tonearm design.

The demonstrations I have received where the Progressive Work on Mechanical Interfaces has been presented as A/B comparisons between earlier generation and latest generation selection for materials has been quite revelatory.

Especially when a modern material in use that has once made a great impression when utilised, has been exchanged for a same material with a change in machining tolerance for the part to change the mechanics at the interface, and a 'cutting edge' lowest viscosity lubrication has been used.

I am now fortunate to have a friendship with Two Individuals producing Tonearms with the above design intent and considerations.

The other designed Tonearm using the above design considerations is a complete New Design, with all parts needing to be produced to unique forms for the assembly.

It does not utilise any off the shelf parts for the structure,  even the micro parts that are bought in, to be used in the concealed locations, are machined to a new tolerance to create a improved interface.

I do not use any of my earliest purchased Tonearms any more, I have now got access to Tonearms that I am confident are an improvement and are noticeably  better. 

It is a pleasure to know individuals who are not asleep at the wheel, and remain enthusiastic about materials and designs for a Tonearm, occasionally trying out that new idea that has been niggling them to investigate.

I thoroughly enjoy my invites to offer an assessment of the advancement of the designs as they evolve.

Again for the OP, what really matters is what is in place 'under the hood', $$$$$'s of outlay for a very attractive modern design aesthetic, might just be that only, a Ornament that has a added bonus of offering a Tangible Interaction.

The reality is that a much lesser value $$$$ selection of Tonearms can prove to be a match in the mechanics and operation and presentation.

How Old is your Tonearm? There might be an upgrade to your model available from the Manufacture.           

Pindac, my turntabe is about two years or so old and one of the last VPI Classic 2’s produced. The only upgrade I see on the VPI site is to use their dual pivot mod, which I’ll try first, or alternately if trying to get away from a unipivot design, to go for a gimbal type LF model at about $4500, which should fit the VPI tonearm base. I’d have to confirm that it would fit.

Thank you for all the information you provided. You’re fortunate to know the manufacturers you do.

Mike

I will offer a suggestion, and one that I was familiar with having happened in the past few years.

A friend who had purchased an SP10 R was needing to select a Tonearm for it.

As an avoidance of acting in haste, they had a Standalone Tonearm Pod produced for quite a reasonable outlay by a local to their home engineering workshop.

This mounting device enabled them to try things out in a manner that suited their needs, as the need to have a plinth produced to suit multiple arm types was not desired.

As the device and mounting of the TT was capable of allowing for all Tonearms Lengths, variances could be catered for, this proved to be very useful device to experience Tonearms of various Brands and Models.

The ideal for the wish list was to own a 12" Arm but all options were not discounted.

I loaned my SME IV for their evaluation and I know Origin Live, Reed and Glanz and possibly a Linn arm were also used.

A Glanz 12" was the choice made, and it remains mounted on the Standalone Pod still to this day.

A plinth is also produced that really sets of the SP10 to an aesthetically pleasing finish. The Plinth is finished flush with the TT's chassis and does not have a mounting designed into it for a Tonearm.   

I regularly attend this individuals home and can not fault the performance of the system for LP Replays, it is a reference system and used for many demonstrations.

Maybe? a Standalone Pod could be compatible with your TT and mounting set up, offering an extension to the opportunities for yourself to try out New Tonearm options.

 A/B demonstrations with the insitu Tonearm would be possible, but the two different mountings would need to be considered when assessing.

Two Budget Cartridges could also be used to be consistent with the assessments of the Demonstrations.

The Cart' in use at present could be introduced when a discovery is made that impresses beyond the normal, and the Kleos could be kept for the final evaluation. 

There are a few Ortofon Kontrapunk B's stored as spare Cart's within my local HiFi Group and these are available for such types of demonstration for Group members.

There is also the possibility that could be realised, where the TT ends up with a Two Tonearm configuration, this could be very beneficial to reducing the rate of wear on the Kleos. 

Thank you pindac. I hadn’t heard of Stand Alone Tonearm Pods before. I’ve started looking into them to see what I can find out. Interesting idea,

Mike

In relation to my suggestions, a further investigation might uproot some of the pro/con material to be discovered about a Stand Alone Pod, the following might clarify why some of the discussion takes place.  

There is a die hard element in the use of Vinyl and LP Replays, that objects to the idea of using a Pod, the concern is usually seen that maintaining a consistency to the Spindle > Pivot distance is compromised when adopting this method.

I have not at any time seen this as being a concern, and have seen TT's that are at risk of compromising the dimensions for this critical Geometry due to the Plinth Materials chosen to be used by the Manufacturer.

If the TT and Pod are both mounted onto a very stable material, that does not swell in differing environments, this material will serves as a Sub Plinth.

There are many out there, I have trialled many types, and most recently have been very impressed with a material called Panzerholz when used on a system I am familiar with.

When both TT and Pod are securely seated on the Sub Plinth, the Sub Plinth will not contribute to creating micro dimensional movements impacting on Geometry of the Spindle > Pivot distance.

There is then the risk that the materials used for producing the TT's Chassis or Plinth is made from materials that are not stable, and micro dimensional movements can occur.

Unfortunately if this is the case, the conventional method to mount a Tonearm will be impacted on with the same influence, and in differing environments dimensional changes can occur.

The use of materials with properties that are very stable for the Chassis / Plinth are the only method that ensures the rigid coupling philosophy for a TT > Tonearm interface having a chance of a success, when keeping with the required tolerances that allow for the design to be called a rigid coupling .

As my knowledge of the critical mechanical interfaces on TT's has grown.

My experience of TT's which have had an unknown amount of usage hours behind them when encountered, has been to discover many TT's, I have been able to manually inspected the Spindle Bearing, has shown a high percentage have a detectable sideways movement on the Platter Spindle, that in some cases can be made to rattle.

I have my own thoughts on how such a condition can develop, but that is a separate subject.

This sideways movement condition on a Spindle will when functioning during a replay put any of the above concerns out of the Ball Park, as these are no longer micro dimensional changes, but eccentric rotations and speed fluctuations.

The Tonearm Pod is in my view a totally acceptable method to mount a Tonearm when compared to how many other TT's function in relation to the Spindle > Pillar distance being maintained.

There is no reason why the correct methods when adopted are any lesser than other more common options used to maintain the critical Geometry.

The Tonearm Pod can also be a design that offers increased options and allows for differing Base Plate Materials to be used, that will further allow for a selection of a preferred interface materials to be discovered, and ultimately end up with a Bespoke assembly to suit an individuals unique preferrence. 

If a Detachable Head Shell Tonearm design is also considered, the New Tonearm can be tried with differing Headshell Materials, which will further enable a opportunity to discover a Bespoke and preferred interface for your Cart' of choice.

The Detachable Head Shell will all so enable a Speedy exchange of the Preferred Cart' to a Head Shell that has a Cart' mounted, that is a of a lesser concern, which can be used to preserve the life of the Cart' of choice.

A little food for thought, Your Tonearm in use at present could? become an improved Tonearm if mounted on the Pod, as the separation from the TT's imparted energies might suit its overall function for the better.  

@ skyscraper I hope you are not feeling as limited as you were when the thread commenced

  

          

The Rega RB3000 tonearm mounted on the RP 10 is available as a separate item at a very reasonable price. It is not neutral balance and has it's vertical bearings are above record height. With a perfectly flat record none of this is a problem. Unfortunately there is no such thing. Even with vacuum clamping there are undulations in the record's surface that the tonearm has to negotiate without causing the cantilever to deflect. Such deflections cause wavering of the sound as the relative speed of the vinyl changes. This happens to some degree even if the tonearm tracks the record perfectly but a poorly designed arm makes this worse. It is built in wow and flutter. The reason vacuum clamping turntables with great arms sound better is better speed consistency, less wavering. This is more important then wow and flutter specs is todays better turntables. 

Tonearms, regardless of specific design points are captive to the laws of physics. Effective mass and cartridge compliance determine resonance. Effective length determines tracking error - especially important when using Shibata or other thin-line stylus designs. Bearing design is at the heart of the conflicting tonearm design requirement of infinite mass, which gives the stylus a firm platform to work against, minimizing loss of dynamics and zero friction allowing the arm to move freely as it tracks across the vinyl. What shortcoming in your current rig do you feel are addressed by a new arm?

 

The major argument against mounting the tonearm on an outboard pod is not the fact that pivot to spindle distance is subject to variation, if the pod is inadvertently moved in relation to the spindle, although that certainly is a major secondary consideration.  The major argument against is that the separated pod will likely exhibit differences in resonance properties in relation to the spindle and bearing; this will cause minute relative movements of one vs the other.  You don't want that. You want the tonearm pivot, spindle, and bearing to be together in a closed system.  That said, there are a few outboard pods with sufficient inherent mass that they work OK, if also in contact with a subchassis that is shared with the TT chassis.  There was a ridiculously lengthy thread on this topic, started by Halcro.  Search on the keyword "Copernicus", if you want to revisit it.

Can someone show me the math or physics that says the tonearm pivot must be in the plane of the LP surface?  The idea sounds "right", but I am trying to visualize why.  I start with the principle that certainly the center of mass of the counter-weight should be in the plane of the LP surface, but I'm not sure how we get to the pivot.  There are oodles, probably a vast majority, of tonearms where the pivot is not in the plane of the LP surface.  Many of them are terrific tonearms.

Mijostyn, I do have one of the VPI periphery rings to use with warped records. It weighs a ton and seems to work fairly well in flattening them out during play. Thank you for the suggestion on the Rega RB3000 tonearm. The price is right.

Are you thinking the Rega RB3000 tonearm would be functional height-wise, as well as fit on the Classic 2’s tonearm platform after the unipivot point is removed? I’d much prefer not to have to perform any surgery or drilling to install one. I looked at the Rega RB3000 tonearm manual and it appeared drilling was in order, I could easily be wrong though, as the installation instructions were pretty skimpy for models other than Rega’s own turntables.

The VPI platform has a hole on the platform centered under the tonearm base to bolt a new tonearm’s base into, Seems like a simple arrangement, but maybe uncommon for aftermarket tonearms to have a stem on the underside of their base .

Pindac, thank you for the explanations and clarification on using a pod. This whole subject stemming from getting a new cartridge is more difficult than I’d expected with the limited options available in tonearms suitable for the VPI. At the outset the last thing I was considering was a tonearm upgrade. Nothing good comes easy though.

Panzrwagn, the shortcoming I’m trying to address is that some here have pointed out a gimbal tonearm would be much better than the unipivot tonearm on my VPI Classic 2 to use with a newly ordered Lyra Kleos cartridge.

Mike

@lewm , just watch this and it will explain it ....too most people.

 

Lew, you have to watch all the way through. I know you are going to find it boring after the first 30 seconds. I think even you will understand it. I have posted this on numerous occasions right in front of your face, this time you might try watching it. The vertical bearing problem is a matter of simple geometry. Since I am no good at explaining simple things, watch the video. This fellow is really quite good. 

@skyscraper , Those rings are a PITA to use and dangerous. They also do not totally flatten a record and add a lot of stress/mass to you bearing.

Once you post a link screwy things start happening and you can't post further or make correction.(your bearing).

@skyscraper , to continue I think reflex clamps like the ones JA Mitchel and Sota make are your best bet after vacuum clamping. They are less of a hassle to use and are near as dangerous. Do they improve what you hear? If you record is not flat then absolutely. The brief alterations in pitch that occur are probably worse than the worst wow any modern turntable would reproduce.

"If the record is not flat."  I am sitting here at my desk with my turntable directly to the right with my eye right at stylus level. A 180 gm copy of Take Five is playing as I type. It is sucked down tight to a very flat mat and platter. The cartridge is just slightly gyrating all over the place. Back and forth horizontally due to eccentricity of the spindle hole and up and down due to irregularities in the surface of the record. This record is actually pretty good. All these issues in tonearm design matter. There is no real excuse to ignore any of them. I suppose sometimes you have to compromise. 

skyscraper,

 Below, is another UK company with a reasonably priced arm.

If an armboard is available it may be possible to get it to work with minimal hacking of the plinth? Captive IC's, so one less thing to be concerned with. Possible fit with the existing hole?

The Classic plinth may not be sophisticated, but new arm and addressing speed control will put it a notch higher up in performance. You have the record coupling(peripheral ring) thing covered-close enough to vacuum. 

You're fortunate to get the seasoned/qualified voices in here(I am NOT one of them) Just a VPI Classic fan who won't give up on his.

http://www.audiomods.co.uk/

Mijostyn, If, instead of insults to my intelligence, you would point out to me what minutes in the video explain the physics behind having the pivot in the plane of the LP, I would watch that part of the video. I don’t need the part about the wonderfulness of the AR XA turntable, and I would rather not spend the better part of 51 minutes waiting for the lecture on pivot location.

I watched.  At ~20:00, one can find the discussion about pivot height relative to the LP surface. 

 

VPI pivot upgrade + Lyra w current phono preamp is as far as you need to go….

Mijostyn, I’m sorry I threw in that distracting reference to the VPI peripheral ring, What i would really like is to draw your attention to is the question of whether you think the Rega tonearm you recommended might be able fit on the existing VPI tonearm platform on my Classic 2. And if so would some modification to the platform be needed. If you wouldn’t mind revisiting that part of my previous post it would be appreciated. Thanks for your assistance,

Tablejockey, I’m wondering if that arm you suggest will fit on the VPI Classic 2’s tonearm platform. That’s my main issue right now. It seems VPI’s tonearm and platform are proprietary and you can’t stray much from their brand. Hopefully there are other aftermarket gimballed tonearms that might work on VPI tonearm base without major surgery.

If any of you know of any that meet those parameters that would be wonderful. Thanks.

Lewm, if you’re on my thread you will have to do what you’re told.

Mike

@skyscraper : " I do need to learn about tonearms first, as I really know little to nothing about them. It might be hard to believe, and my wife never could, how much I enjoy engaging in the analysis part of any search or project, When I haven’t the disposable cash to make a new purchase.."

 

"" I am still curious about what sonic differences an arm can make...""

 

""" At the outset the last thing I was considering was a tonearm upgrade. """

 

"""" Maybe the dual pivot will help wring enough out of the Kleos with my current tonearm to make this a minor issue. """"

 

I think that because of what you said you can’t really learn about tonearm/T/cartridge intrinsecal relationship through a thread through " paper ", you just can’t. The information everyone already posted here ( including mine. ) only makes that you continue to have more and more questions and dudes. Every additional post on the Kleos/tonearm/TT issue in this moment goes against you and your today system:

 

""""" Can’t wait for the Kleos to arrive in about three months or so. """""

 

The only " fast " way you have to learn is with first hand experiences with same cartridge mounted in different tonearms . You have time to look how you can have those first hand experiences. It’s not easy because the room/systems where you need to have those first hand experiences needs in some way familiar to you or at least that you " understand " those room/systems different signatures.

You have posts here that even gone to almost " stupid " advise for you as an external arm-pod when your needs are way different. Even you and certainly not me know for sure what you really need till the Kleos arrives .

 

Again, if you really want to " learn " ( as you said. ) the best for you as soon is posible is find out how to get those first hand experiences . I want that you know that you can’t be an " experienced " or even an average audiophile in that issue in 6 months when to many of us took " years " to learn about: YEARS not months. But even with all those first hand experiences you can’t really know how the Kleos will performs in your room/system and you will not know not only that but what the Kleos realy can shows you till in a different room/system than yours you can listen the Kleos quality level performance mounted in a good " rigth " room/system.

 

Unfortunatelly and as you accepted your really low know-how level impedes that you can assimilate our posts in the whole issue, you are not prepared to and it's not your fault.

 

R.

 

 

 

 

"I’m wondering if that arm you suggest will fit on the VPI Classic 2’s tonearm platform."

skyscraper- I would confirm with the VPI staff what your options are outside of the gimbal.

Contact the audimods to see if they do have customers with  such transplants. 

VPI gimbal is the best way to go. Keeps the table's integrity should you later to decide to get rid of it. Aftermarket arms you do find will require some hacking of the base to a degree.  It's now compromising resale value. Once molested, no going back.

As mentioned by a few, you're still good to go with the stock arm. If you didn't get the bug regarding its "absolute" technical shortcomings, you would be enjoying that great cart, thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread.

VPI dual pivot seems to get approval overall from users. It does look very low tech/crude-a simple clamp with a divot sliding on plastic film? That is not a "pivot"

I apologize for raining on the Mijostyn parade, but in this video, where the narrator is trying to demonstrate the importance of having the pivot located at the level of the LP surface (minutes 20-25 or so), he is really comparing the condition "headshell parallel to LP surface" to the condition "headshell raised at the rear".  The question is why is there an advantage to locating the pivot at the level of the LP surface for any given orientation of the headshell when viewed from the side.  Since most of the time we start out adjusting VTA such that the headshell is parallel to the LP surface, I take that as the norm. The video shows that raising the pivot at the rear such that the headshell is likewise raised at its rear will result in increased susceptibility to warp wow.  I have no problem with that, but that was not the question. I wouldn't ignore an otherwise excellent tonearm just because it may fail this one criterion.

@skyscraper 

 

Tell us what you do and how it works out. You have piqued my interest. While, I said, not something I would do… interested in the outcome.

Raul. you’re right there is a lot to learn, and the resources to learn are severely limited here. I’m out in the countryside with not even a high end dealer within several hours drive. But I do have an interest in trying to make at least a better informed decision than a shot in the dark. So I have at my disposal the internet, books and magazines to try and source information. You’re also correct that it’s hard to separate the wheat from the chaff with anything you read online.

I wouldn’t know anything at all about stereo equipment except it’s been a hobby of mine since the 1970’s, like many of the readers here.. I used to subscribe to three audio magazines back then and checked out stereo equipment stores which were plentiful in those days. Even went to a New York Audio Society meeting once. But that’s it. I’m not expecting to become an audio engineer any time soon. If I ever travel down near you though, I’ll stop by, pick your brain, and you can show me a few things. Until then Vaya con Dios mi amigo, hope that translates okay. Thanks for your advice.

Tablejockey and ghdprentice, I will be going at least for a few years with the stock JMW arm and a dual pivot mod. Might not be perfect, but should be pretty good. I was reading up today on the reportedly overly expensive VPI Fatboys since they should fit the current base. i’m not going to customize the turntable unless it’s truly a minor thing to do.

So maybe an eventual upgrade to a second hand gimballed Fatboy might be the only practical option.. It is frustrating to know that there are better tonearms out there in that price range, that won’t fit the VPI tonearm’s base. Resale however is not a concern. I plan on being entombed with the VPI Classic 2 and the rest of my newly purchased equipment, just like the Egyptian pharaohs used to be with their valuables.

I also plan on spending my remaining savings on traveling to foreign lands, beautiful French women, oil paintings and constructing a woodworking shop. That takes in everything from the ethereal to the mundane. No more stereo equipment though.

Lewm. I hope you know I was joking with you,. There are a lot of things to consider. and I will keep in mind the points you make. Maybe one day I’ll figure all this out. Take care,

Mike

Whatever you buy, make sure that it's adjustable. That is: VTA, VTF, azimuth, anti-skating (if applicable).

If you're prepared to accept a little quirkiness, you can take advantage of the greatest bargain in high end: the Trans-Fi Terminator, an air bearing linear tracker. Actually, that's air horizontally and a mechanical pivot vertically. Direct from the manufacturer, on the net.

Performs on the level of anything costing less than a new car. I use two: one with a Nottingham Analog upgraded to near Dais specification running a Miyajima Zero, and a DIY air bearing unit running a higher end Koetsu. Bonus: they are perfect for modifying and tweaking, which you need to do if running low compliance MC cartridges like these.

 

Reminds me of my old Bang and Olufsen Beogram 4002 tangental straight arm tracking tonearm. Probably not nearly sophisticated as yours.

Mike

@lewm 

The description is from Vinyl Engine offering an explanation on the DTS System utilised by Audio Technica.

I believe it is this Tonearm that was the birthplace for the commonly used philosophy for a design, that has a Stylus Contact Point and Pivot Vertical Motion Point designed to be at the same level. (Pivot in the Plane of the LP, is a loose description for this design)   

To get the Math on the principle might be a little more difficult to acquire.

__________________________________________________________________

AT - 1010 is a DTS (Dynamic Tracing System) Tonearm that blends an original design with new materials.

Also, the tracing performance of Universal Tonearms has been Totally Reconsidered in this new design.

Development efforts were aimed at improving the overall tracing performance of the dynamic system with a cartridge mounted.

This results in Improvement in Auditory Sensitivity and Elimination of Resonance.

One of the most obvious features of the AT-1010 is to Stabilise Stylus Force in Dynamic Variations, an inherent problem with Conventional, General Arms, caused by the change in velocity of the modulated record groove.

For this purpose, the front pipe is set at a far higher location than the pivot bearing.

Also, the arm is equipped with a damping mechanism to damp low frequency resonance.

As a result, this Tonearm gives a tracing performance that is in no way inferior to an integrated arm.

Review

The AT1010 exhibits a refined geometry, whereby the vertical motion pivot axis is in line with the stylus tip, thereby minimising the effect of varying stylus drag upon instantaneous downforce.

Forget my suggestion. I understand that it's now being made in Russia, not England.