Raul, thank you for an interesting suggestion on the Technics. I’ve taken a look at the links you provided, and watched the Fremer youtube video where Fremer compared the Technics to a $100,000 turntable in a side by side listening comparison. Also watched a follow-up video to that by an engineer, and read a review by Absolute Sound
Ghdprentice, i do really like the VPI Classic 2. Especially so after acquiring some accessories like upgraded Isoacoustic isolation feet and the periphery ring for it. I hate to think about changing it out even though there might be better models out there for the dollar, such as the Technics SL 1200g Raul suggests.
Thank you for your encouragement and common sense. It’s very much appreciated. By the way, did you previously mention what table you have now. I’m just curious, and nosey enough t ask. If it happens to be the Technics SL 1200g, don’t tell me.
Mike
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Ghdrpentice, good luck getting to that last upgrade, certainly a worthy goal. VPI has some of that upgrade capability too as you know. Sounds like you put a lot of thought into your turntable choice and it’s paid off for you right down to having some "looks" to it.
Having a friend who’s a Linn Master Technician is fortuitous too. I mostly have friends who’ve never heard of high end stereo equipment. The only acquaintance who has is a neighbor, who I gave all my old Phase Linear equipment and Dahlquist DQ 10’s to. I didn’t know another soul out here in the country who would have even known, much less appreciated, what that vintage equipment was.
Pindac, like you say it is important to have an effective system of vibration isolation.. I used some of techniques you mentioned in building the shelving housing my components,
The turntable itself was retrofitted with Isoacoustic feet which sit on a marble slab, floating on a layer of meshed foamlike material, sitting on a floating shelf of 3/4" cross ply Baltic birch, floating on another layer of soft mesh in turn resting on a regular 3/4" plywood connected to the side walls. I don’t know if this makes the sytem any quieter as I’ve never had the equipment situated elsewhere, but I sure hope so for the effort put into it. All the components now have the Isoacoustic brand feet for the same purpose as isolating the turntable, since that seemed to work so well in that application.
Mike
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Pindac, that video was a scream. Thanks. Always good to be able to laugh at yourself. I was amazed how many changes had occurred in high end audio when I tried picking up an interest in it again after having not having purchased a single new component since 1979.
Raul, I appreciate your excellent advice, and you are undoubtedly correct the Kleos would be better served by upgrading the Classic 2. However I’m pretty content with what I have now with the exception of the current Ortofon 2M Black cartridge being replaced. And I’ve been fairly well convinced an upgraded tonearm should be in the offing at a future date. But that’s where I need to stop now, as wringing the best performance possible out the Kleos is not my highest priority at present
I’d rather spend my resources, time and energy on pursuits other than audio now. I really don’t wish to do surgery on my turntable, or have to go to the trouble of selling it, or researching and finding and installing an upgraded turntable, even if it would improve my system.
I’ve already spent way more than anticipated on the Kleos alone, much less considering getting a tonearm upgrade and/or a whole new turntable. I’d prefer to move on to other pursuits. I’d like to travel and see the Sistine Chapel for example and do some other more mundane things that require time, resources and energy. I hate to be spouting such audio heresy on Audiogon, but shamefully, there it is.
I’m still enjoying the thrill of having the Classic 2 and all my other new components, and am perfectly happy with them for now. I never thought I’d have such a grand stereo system, I realize there’s always something better and you’ve pointed out some good examples, even economical ones, but I think I’ll stand pat, cool my jets for a while and enjoy what I have. Hope you understand, and thanks for all the good advice.
Mike
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Dover, thanks for that information on the Classic 2 tonearm’s design as an integrated unit. Sounds problematic to say the least.
I will most likely be installing the VPI dual pivot mod to hold me over until such time as I can afford to get a tonearm. But now I’m hoping that will do the trick by itself. $4500 seems like a lot to spend a tonearm. It comes in at more than the Classic 2 turntable’s cost, and more than the Lyra Kleos cost too. I’m getting sticker shock and this is only the first reply on this thread. Up until a few days ago I hadn’t even been considering a new tonearm.
I looked uo the tonearms you recommended,, They both come in at over $5000. I might just have to do without if that’s all that’s available to fit the Classic 2’s tonearm base.
Mike
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Daveyf, I am still curious about what sonic differences an arm can make. Any input on that, you or anyone out there?.
I sure hope I’m not strictly limited to expensive VPI tonearms, but maybe that is the case like with your Linn. I really hate the thought of putting an additional $4-5,000 into a tonearm. But maybe that’s the only realistic option to get the best out of the Lyra Kleos. Maybe the dual pivot will help wring enough out of the Kleos with my current tonearm to make this a minor issue. We’ll see.
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Mijostyn, I’ll take a look at all the tonearms you mentioned. Will any of them fit the Classic 2 with my having to drill it out do you know?
What difference do you get with sound quailty using various tonearms to include the ones you mention and chose between? I can’t imagine you get the same improvements in sound quality that you might if you invested equal money into a better cartridge or speakers..
After reading an article on this subject, I started thinking the cartridge might have a much larger impact on sound quality than maybe any other component other than the speakers. And that made me think the Ortofon 2M Black was mismatched with the rest of my system. I could be totally wrong, but that thought led me to invest in the Lyra Kleos, a much higher priced and quality cartridge than I might have otherwise considered., Do you think that may be true or is that way off?
The video was interesting and informative, By the way, since my carpentry skills outshine my audio ones, notice the Stanley hammer the video’s host was using to pound on the turntable was definitely low end and not up to his demo. Any decent Estwing hammer would have made the needle fly out of the record’s tracks in a hot flash..
Thanks again for your help. Can’t wait for the Kleos to arrive in about three months or so.
Mike
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Tablejockey- what are you referring to with "Lyra’s pre 3d/gimbal"? I tried googling that but came up empty. There’s no 3D gimbal on the VPI or Lyra site I could find. I would like to look it up since you mention it. That’s a good idea to call VPI .about other aftermarket tonearms that may work on their tables. I tried them a couple days ago but no one was around to talk to.
Mulveling, I do need to learn about tonearms first, as I really know little to nothing about them. It might be hard to believe, and my wife never could, how much I enjoy engaging in the analysis part of any search or project, When I haven’t the disposable cash to make a new purchase it’s the perfect time for that too.
I looked up the Gimbal Fatboy you mentioned That;s anoher one in the $4000 plus range. There must be some good gimbal arm for half that which might fit the VPI Classic 2, maybe not.
I will be sticking with the VPI Classic 2 as I’ve other things I’d like to be doing other than fiddling around with continued and expensive audio upgrades,. Heck, I kept my B&O Beogram 4002 turntable for forty years and was perfectly happy with it until kept breaking down So I figure to keep the VPI table until I’m at least age 107 then do another turntable upgrade. By the same token If I do drill some holes in the Classic 2’s base, it’ll be my heirs who take a loss on that, so no worries there.
Mike
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Yeti42. I’ll make sure the person doing the set up reconnects the anti-skating. Thank you for that advice. After trying to absorb all the knowledge you’ve imparted about different tonearms, it’s obvious you and Mijostyn both need to move here to Virginia to take care of this. Amazing and impressive. how much you know about various cartridges and the like..
I did do the set uo on my Ortofon 2M Black, but would likely be in over my head setting up the Lyra Kleos, even though valuable experience would be gained as you said. I’ll figure out how to install the VPI dual pivot mod, but that’s about the limit.in this arena.
Mijostyn, ,impressive you know how to do machining and can apply that skill to audio applications. I’ve been thinking on taking a course on machining and acquiring enough skill to facilitate restoring vintage woodworking machines, another hobby.. I’d love to get a Bridgeport, a nice lathe and some other equipment, But I’m getting off topic.
I’m going to look up all the arms you mentioned on the used market too, even though I don’t prefer to go there. I did see one Schroder CB used for $2000 which wasn’t too bad. I’ll call Matt at VPI and see if any of those you suggested can be retrofitted on the VPI base.
Tablejockey, thanks for the clarification.
Mike
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Thank you for your suggestions Raul. I will look all of them up.
Mike
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Pindac, that makes perfect sense. What's under the hood is what counts.
Mike
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Slaw, I am going to get the dual pivot and would very much appreciate you sending a piece of the PEEK, If you PM your name and address I’ll put a check in the mail to you, My name and the address to send it to will be on the check.
If I remember correctly, some of your suggestions to reduce noise and vibration were incorporated into the shelving built to house my equipment. To good effect your hand print is getting to be all over my system. I’ve been wondering how to mitigate the exact problem the Peek will address. What an excellent idea, and right on time. Thank you,
Mike.
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Mijostyn, very well could be.
Pindac, sure did.recognize Rowan Atkinson .Used to watch him back in the eighties in Blackadder, which was hilarious.
This has nothiing to do with audio, but I’d really like to see Rome and Florence. I was stationed in Stutttgart, Germany in 1980. Right before I finished my tour, some friends invited me on a trip to see both those places, traveling in the luxury of their brand new American car. Just my luck on delivery to them the car had a defective engine, and they couldn’t a part needing to be replaced from the US before I shipped out. I’ve always regretted missing that opportunity.
Mike
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Pindac, my turntabe is about two years or so old and one of the last VPI Classic 2’s produced. The only upgrade I see on the VPI site is to use their dual pivot mod, which I’ll try first, or alternately if trying to get away from a unipivot design, to go for a gimbal type LF model at about $4500, which should fit the VPI tonearm base. I’d have to confirm that it would fit.
Thank you for all the information you provided. You’re fortunate to know the manufacturers you do.
Mike
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Thank you pindac. I hadn’t heard of Stand Alone Tonearm Pods before. I’ve started looking into them to see what I can find out. Interesting idea,
Mike
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Mijostyn, I do have one of the VPI periphery rings to use with warped records. It weighs a ton and seems to work fairly well in flattening them out during play. Thank you for the suggestion on the Rega RB3000 tonearm. The price is right.
Are you thinking the Rega RB3000 tonearm would be functional height-wise, as well as fit on the Classic 2’s tonearm platform after the unipivot point is removed? I’d much prefer not to have to perform any surgery or drilling to install one. I looked at the Rega RB3000 tonearm manual and it appeared drilling was in order, I could easily be wrong though, as the installation instructions were pretty skimpy for models other than Rega’s own turntables.
The VPI platform has a hole on the platform centered under the tonearm base to bolt a new tonearm’s base into, Seems like a simple arrangement, but maybe uncommon for aftermarket tonearms to have a stem on the underside of their base .
Pindac, thank you for the explanations and clarification on using a pod. This whole subject stemming from getting a new cartridge is more difficult than I’d expected with the limited options available in tonearms suitable for the VPI. At the outset the last thing I was considering was a tonearm upgrade. Nothing good comes easy though.
Panzrwagn, the shortcoming I’m trying to address is that some here have pointed out a gimbal tonearm would be much better than the unipivot tonearm on my VPI Classic 2 to use with a newly ordered Lyra Kleos cartridge.
Mike
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Mijostyn, I’m sorry I threw in that distracting reference to the VPI peripheral ring, What i would really like is to draw your attention to is the question of whether you think the Rega tonearm you recommended might be able fit on the existing VPI tonearm platform on my Classic 2. And if so would some modification to the platform be needed. If you wouldn’t mind revisiting that part of my previous post it would be appreciated. Thanks for your assistance,
Tablejockey, I’m wondering if that arm you suggest will fit on the VPI Classic 2’s tonearm platform. That’s my main issue right now. It seems VPI’s tonearm and platform are proprietary and you can’t stray much from their brand. Hopefully there are other aftermarket gimballed tonearms that might work on VPI tonearm base without major surgery.
If any of you know of any that meet those parameters that would be wonderful. Thanks.
Lewm, if you’re on my thread you will have to do what you’re told.
Mike
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Raul. you’re right there is a lot to learn, and the resources to learn are severely limited here. I’m out in the countryside with not even a high end dealer within several hours drive. But I do have an interest in trying to make at least a better informed decision than a shot in the dark. So I have at my disposal the internet, books and magazines to try and source information. You’re also correct that it’s hard to separate the wheat from the chaff with anything you read online.
I wouldn’t know anything at all about stereo equipment except it’s been a hobby of mine since the 1970’s, like many of the readers here.. I used to subscribe to three audio magazines back then and checked out stereo equipment stores which were plentiful in those days. Even went to a New York Audio Society meeting once. But that’s it. I’m not expecting to become an audio engineer any time soon. If I ever travel down near you though, I’ll stop by, pick your brain, and you can show me a few things. Until then Vaya con Dios mi amigo, hope that translates okay. Thanks for your advice.
Tablejockey and ghdprentice, I will be going at least for a few years with the stock JMW arm and a dual pivot mod. Might not be perfect, but should be pretty good. I was reading up today on the reportedly overly expensive VPI Fatboys since they should fit the current base. i’m not going to customize the turntable unless it’s truly a minor thing to do.
So maybe an eventual upgrade to a second hand gimballed Fatboy might be the only practical option.. It is frustrating to know that there are better tonearms out there in that price range, that won’t fit the VPI tonearm’s base. Resale however is not a concern. I plan on being entombed with the VPI Classic 2 and the rest of my newly purchased equipment, just like the Egyptian pharaohs used to be with their valuables.
I also plan on spending my remaining savings on traveling to foreign lands, beautiful French women, oil paintings and constructing a woodworking shop. That takes in everything from the ethereal to the mundane. No more stereo equipment though.
Lewm. I hope you know I was joking with you,. There are a lot of things to consider. and I will keep in mind the points you make. Maybe one day I’ll figure all this out. Take care,
Mike
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Reminds me of my old Bang and Olufsen Beogram 4002 tangental straight arm tracking tonearm. Probably not nearly sophisticated as yours.
Mike
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Terry, will do. Nothing Russian now for sure,
Pindac, appreciate you explanation.
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Mijostyn, I’m not going to take a chance on doing any type of modification to the table of my VPI Classic 2. These turntables are refined machines and though I might be able to dope out what to do, the chances of messing things up are simply too high for an an amateur at this to be taking chances with on a $3000+ turntable. Although I’m proficient with tools, having built, plumbed, wired, and done HVAC on my home, I don’t want to get in over my head.
That being said, I’d be perfectly able to unscrew the unipivot point of the Classic 2’s tonearm base and to bolt in their pricey Fatboy gimballed tonearm. I simply don’t want to spend that type of money, S4500, on their Fatboy, or to replace the entire turntable to be able to use other possibly better arms. I don’t want this cartridge upgrade to a Lyra Kleos to turn into a money pit.
Unfortunately no one so far has been able to suggest another manufacturer’s tonearm that could be definitely be bolted in similarly. Maybe there are none and the VPI’s proprietary design rules out that possibility. The Rega arm appears like it screws in with Philips head screws at a different location than the VPI tables single centered bolt hole would allow.
If I have some time today or tomorrow I’ll be calling to see if VPI would offer any other aftermarket suggestions other than their own $4500 Fatboy. Since I’m not going to replace or modify the Classic 2 turntable, the only other alternative I’m seeing right now using the current tonearm base is to either pony up the cash for the Fatboy either later or now, or do without.
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Pindac, thank you again for your input and suggestions. And thanks to the link to the VPI stand alone. I’ll ask them about that when I call. them It’s amazing the amount all of you know..
Imififan- I’m going to have to research those Acoustand Tonearm Pods Nice picture. Thanks.
Anybody know how those VPI gimballed Fatboys compare to any other tonearms in the $4500 price range. There are not a lot of reviews to be found, or used ones to be found either. I’m usually afraid to buy used, but am equally afraid of the poorhouse.
Mike
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Lewm- appreciate the heads up. It’s going to take a minute to sort out all the information on this thread alone much less other information gathered on the subject.
It might be most cost effective to get a VPI gimballed Fatboy and call it a day. It would be integrated structurally with the rest of the turntable since it’s made to go with the existing tonearm’s base. It is gimballed so should complement the Lyra Kleos cartridge better, I wouldn’t have to waste $170 on a dual pivot for the current arm. And the professional set up cost of about $200 wouldn’t have to be redone if I upgraded at a later date to a better tonearm.
I’m thinking out loud here.
Mike
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Dover, reusing the same holes is clever. I’ll have to think about that one. I really don’t want to start another project though, like trying to install another type arm that might not correctly fit or the installation end up being screwed up somehow. I’ve been doing things along those lines most of my life during various and sundry pursuits. usually with good results. But I’m leery of trying it with this type of equipment as a rookie, It could easily be a recipe for disaster. That is a clever and tempting idea though.. I’ll have to sleep on it.
Imhififan, I give you credit for giving an outboard arm a try.
I’m thinking tonight about ways to pay for the expensive, easily retrofit gimbaled Fatboy. Maybe I can get a trade in on my current tonearm, or a discount on the list price of a Fatboy, or find one used but not abused, or even sell my current Ortofon 2M Black cartridge to defray cost. I’ve got to think about that approach for a while too. But where there’s a will there’s a way
Again, I appreciate everyone’s suggestions and ideas. Plenty of food for thought, Maybe I’ll start a thread on gimbaled Fatboys to get an idea how they compare with other tonearms in their price range. If other cartridges are much better in comparison that would provide impetus to the thought of installing a custom arm board. Lots to consider while breaking the bank.
Pindac, you’re certainly a DIY (do it yourself) guy, which I admire. I’m not with my stereo equipment for the most part as I’ve learned to accept my limitations.
On your second point, I can lock my equipment up behind doors if any kids are around. No pets are allowed in the house. And no miscreants either for that matter, who like to admire and touch my stereo or books. My late wife was an exception to that rule, because she might give me a good whack if need be,
Mike
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Lewm. you’re right, dover hit the nail on the head right out the gate. Options are limited with VPI’s design. I’m not concerned with resale value as aforementioned. I’m not planning on selling the Classic 2, and I’d not want to attempt any mods on it where I might potentially screw it up. I’m happy to have it as it.is in that respect.
Raul, I appreciate your advice, and it is sound and sensible. But at $7000 retail for the RP-10, I’m not looking to make that kind of outlay, plus have to change out and sell my VPI Classic 2, tone arm and cartridge to make it happen. I started out only wanting to upgrade a cartridge and did stretch my budget to order the Lyra Kleos. Honestly you all convinced me to do that for excellent reasons, Your above suggestion although probably equally sound is really way more than I’d like to deal with on top of getting the Kleos.
I’d take a serious look at the RP-10’s tonearm by itself if it would retrofit onto the VPI Classic 2’s tonearm base, but it doesn’t appear that it will without modifying that base. And i’m unsure if there is any issue with its’ height on that platform. I’ll look for the Fremer review anyway, as I’m not sure if that’s the one I read. In any event thank you for your thoughtful suggestion.
One other thing Raul, please do not address others suggestions on my thread as stupid. A modicum of tact is called for. Other’s ideas are expressed with the best of intentions just as yours are. Whether they are knowledgeable as you or not, or their suggestions are as good or not, that part is up to me to sort out on my thread. They are after all graciously taking their time to be of assistance. I hope this suggestion does not put you off, as I do appreciate your advice and knowledge, and that you have taken the time to generously share it on my behalf here.
Pindac, I wish there were others here near home to visit and share an interest in audio with, as you seem to be able to. Unfortunately I can’t find any. A local dealer told me years ago there was an audio club in Roanoke, but it’s long gone. That’s the peril of living out in the countryside. The Audiogon site really does help in this regard.
Mike
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Thanks honeyool. I hope that's the case with the Fatboy too which is also a 3D model for the most part anyway. I just stated a new thread on the Fatboys to get advice on those.
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Than you Pindac for your interest and the link you have PMed. Some folks here, like you , have progressed father into this field than I’m ever likely to. Be that as it may, it’s a complicated hobby to enjoy, but not yet an avocation.. I’ll never reach the skill or knowledge level of some of the respondents here, but there’s no reason to have to. It is a joy though to be able to appreciate the knowledge you all so graciously share. Like equipment reviews their shared knowledge gets over my head at times, but no matter, I sort it out best I can to make better informed decisions.
Mike, check out my current thread on Fatboys, Thanks. No new turntables for me though, unless they are presents or I win the lottery. You and your compatriots have already done more than enough on the new purchase front. convincing me to purchase a Lyra Kleos, and now maybe a new tonearm. You’ll not squeeze a new turntable out of me. Take it easy,
Mike
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Raul, you’re no doubt absolutely correct that a new platform may be the best way to go and would facilitate purchasing a higher quality or more economical tonearm to go with the Lyra Kleos. But you and Mijostyn are in the big leagues with this kind of thing and aren’t phased by dealing with things like that, whereas I’m only in the minor leagues. As such, I think I’ve a greater chance of achieving some success within my capabilities, by following the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) model by way of a possible simple VPI Fatboy retrofit on the existing platform.
Mike
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Ghdprentice, thanks. I’d rather not risk the system I have now in any way by overreaching. It’s a miracle to have relatively high quality stereo equipment in the first place, even if it’s only at the low end of the high end, So I’m counting my blessings and playing it safe Either old age and/or common sense are kicking in, Never been to either of those places before to know,
Mike
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Pindac, thanks again.
Raul, thanks for all your advice too, I’ll keep trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff, which is fun, like solving a puzzle, and hopefully not waste too much of my resources in the process.
Tablejockey, thanks for reading my threads on the subject. Your estimation of of how this "audiophoolery" works is again spot on. Like you said it is a fun pursuit though,. I enjoy trying to sort it all out, as well as communicating with all of who share this pursuit. Having our financial resources fade into nothingness and beyond is merely an unfortunate side effect .
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