How to choose an upgraded tonearm.

Terry, will do. Nothing Russian now for sure,

Pindac, appreciate you explanation. 

 

@skyscraper The following underscored info', was not at any time a offered as a definitive guideline and made with the intention as being the method that should be followed. It was a suggestion put forward to help you realise that to experience an alternative Tonearm in use with your TT, there was options to tackle this idea. 

As you had already expressed an interest in machining a Task to produce a Standalone Pod seemed to be viable as a beginners project, either self produced or through dialogue with an engineering facility.

Additionally as you were expressing an inquisitive mind, I shared further info about the 'under the hood' considerations.

_______________________________________________________________  

I will offer a suggestion, and one that I was familiar with having happened in the past few years.

A friend who had purchased an SP10 R was needing to select a Tonearm for it.

As an avoidance of acting in haste, they had a Standalone Tonearm Pod produced for quite a reasonable outlay by a local to their home engineering workshop.

This mounting device enabled them to try things out in a manner that suited their needs, as the need to have a plinth produced to suit multiple arm types was not desired.

As the device and mounting of the TT was capable of allowing for all Tonearms Lengths, variances could be catered for, this proved to be very useful device to experience Tonearms of various Brands and Models.

__________________________________________________________

@skyscraper  In the first two posts of this Thread you were offered information on Tonearm Models.

By the third post you have shown you have been influenced by the offered ideas, for a Tonearm Brand and as further posts evolved, it was becoming clear you were toying with the idea of looking into discovering if alternate Tonearms were an option to be used on your TT.

In post 18, you were offered the idea of replacing the entirety of your TT Set Up with another Brands products, by the individual making the underscored statement statement below.

As usual on this forum, the information offered does go off topic, and such a suggestion to get rid of your present TT, reaches far beyond the initial OP request, of how to select a Tonearm, that might be a future event. 

___________________________________________________________  

You have posts here that even gone to almost " stupid " advise for you as an external arm-pod when your needs are way different. Even you and certainly not me know for sure what you really need till the Kleos arrives .

__________________________________________________________

I hope you can differentiate the differences between the suggestion I have made.

Which was offered to help with your understanding of an option to use a device that could be acquired at quite a reasonable outlay, to enable an experience of a alternative Tonearm with your TT, and the suggestion to get rid of your TT set up and purchase a New Brand entirely. 

My suggestion, from my end seemed to be a cost effective method to broaden your experience, especially a experience that seems attractive to yourself to encounter, and usable on a TT that has limited options to use alternative Tonearms.

I certainly won't be informing an OP to get rid of the entirety of the LP Replay front end, when a inquiry is made about how to choose a Tonearm.

I certainly won't be making a statement that users of a Standalone Tonearm Pod whether encountered within a forum or outside, that their chosen method is ' stupid 

I certainly don't agree with those that think it is OK to express such futile types of comments either.

 

@lewm , that would be incorrect. It is all about the location of the vertical pivot. The tonearm describes an arc as it travels up and down. Think of it as drawing a circle with the stylus. What happens to the location of the stylus when you move the center of the circle up. The stylus now moves forward as it travel upwards. This transiently slows the speed of the groove by the stylus creating wow. The higher you go the more wow is created. If you lower the center of the circle the opposite happens. Groove speed increases as the tonearm moves up. The least amount of stylus translocation is created when the center of the circle is at record level creating the smallest amount of wow with changes in elevation. This was demonstrated in the video. Although this video uses the AR XA as it's model and shows how advanced it was in it's day. It also explains a number of concepts that are important to any tonearm and turntable. The only severe error it makes is with it's deflection of anti skating. The XA actually did have anti skating. It's horizontal bearing had to be the worst design of any tonearm ever made. Friction did the job. I do not really care for his description of the head shell either. It is a must watch for people like @skyscraper. My point in all this is that people become so concerned about the wow and flutter specs of turntables and not about other issues that cause significantly greater speed irregularities like tonearm design and warped records. 

Lew, I was not insulting your intelligence. I was joking with you to try and get you to watch the video. It obviously did not work. Next time I'll try another approach. 

@skyscraper , You can mount any tonearm of the right length on any turntable if you are clever enough. That may or may not involve significant modification to the table. It is has a removeable tonearm board you are all set. Just get a new one and have at it. If not you will have to evaluate each arm and it's mounting method in the context of the real estate you have available. I do not know your table well enough to be able to comment. Like some other people on this site I would NEVER use a tonearm on an outboard platform. 

Mijostyn, I’m not going to take a chance on doing any type of modification to the table of my VPI Classic 2. These turntables are refined machines and though I might be able to dope out what to do, the chances of messing things up are simply too high for an an amateur at this to be taking chances with on a $3000+ turntable. Although I’m proficient with tools, having built, plumbed, wired, and done HVAC on my home, I don’t want to get in over my head.

That being said, I’d be perfectly able to unscrew the unipivot point of the Classic 2’s tonearm base and to bolt in their pricey Fatboy gimballed tonearm. I simply don’t want to spend that type of money, S4500, on their Fatboy, or to replace the entire turntable to be able to use other possibly better arms. I don’t want this cartridge upgrade to a Lyra Kleos to turn into a money pit.

Unfortunately no one so far has been able to suggest another manufacturer’s tonearm that could be definitely be bolted in similarly. Maybe there are none and the VPI’s proprietary design rules out that possibility. The Rega arm appears like it screws in with Philips head screws at a different location than the VPI tables single centered bolt hole would allow.

If I have some time today or tomorrow I’ll be calling to see if VPI would offer any other aftermarket suggestions other than their own $4500 Fatboy. Since I’m not going to replace or modify the Classic 2 turntable, the only other alternative I’m seeing right now using the current tonearm base is to either pony up the cash for the Fatboy either later or now, or do without.

I did mention earlier that the Triplanar and most if not all Reed tonearms are surface mounted, such that no new hole is needed for a vertical shaft that needs to penetrate the mounting board. You would only have to drill usually 3 small holes for screw fasteners. In some cases, that would work. You'd have to orient the new tonearm so its 3 screw mounts lie on solid material for drilling.

Throughout the Years, I have had owned Tonearms mounted on a host of materials.

The list might be of interest to the OP.

Note: it is not really possible to carry out an A/B assessment of a TT with differing Plinth and Tonearm Mounting Materials, the recollections are usually made from the knowledge that a presentation was an enjoyed experience and happily lived with and the overall impression made will have been a subjective evaluation. 

Man made materials produced from organic plant based waste materials, i.e, Plinth Top Plates made from Chipboard and MDF, commonly seen in use today, for the economical solution they offer.

Man made materials produced using dedicated purpose produced organic materials, i.e,  Birch Plywood 650Kg per cubic metre, MU 25 Birch Plywood 750Kg per cubic metre, I have Panzerholz and Permali to be tried at 1400Kg per cubic metre, used today, but will most likely be found as a Bespoke produced Plinth.

Man made materials produced from stone and resin being Corian, used today, but will most likely be found as a Bespoke produced Plinth.

Man made materials produced from metal,  Aluminium and Lead, Brass and other Metal Alloy, used today, Aluminium is the most common to be found, but in general will most likely be found as a Bespoke produced Plinth or Ancillary part to be added to a plinth.

Natural Materials such as Granite, used today, but will most likely be found as a Bespoke produced Plinth. 

It is not so much the material that is used for the Tonearm support that is the concern when in use, they all can sound quite satisfactory, if the TT's mounting is adequately prepared for.

Working with the heaviest materials takes extra thought to achieve a adequate mounting.

The concern is whether the material used to mount the Tonearm is stable throughout the year as the system is exposed to environment changes.

When the movement that I referred to earlier, that has been detected in a TT's Platter Spindle Bearings is considered, the stability of the Tonearm Mounting material when met with a play in a spindle bearing becomes an insignificant concern, as there are other mechanical interfaces needing to be addressed. 

A Standalone Pod, with a Tonearm mounted upon it, when sharing a Sub Plinth produced from a stable property material, and used on a TT, with a correctly functioning platter spindle bearing, will in my view be a very acceptable interface.

It would in my mind, be a more trusted mechanical function, than one that has a concentric rotating spindle on TT with a Tonearm attached to the Plinth.       

I’m not going to take a chance on doing any type of modification to the table of my VPI Classic 2.

How about an outboard armpod and transform your table to dual arm setup?

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/outboard-armpod-project-for-sme-30-12-turntable.29517/

 

I’m sure VPI have been giving the idea of a Stand Alone Pod some thought as well.

Pindac, thank you again for your input and suggestions. And thanks to the link to the VPI stand alone. I’ll ask them about that when I call. them It’s amazing the amount all of you know..

Imififan- I’m going to have to research those Acoustand Tonearm Pods Nice picture. Thanks.

Anybody know how those VPI gimballed Fatboys compare to any other tonearms in the $4500 price range. There are not a lot of reviews to be found, or used ones to be found either. I’m usually afraid to buy used, but am equally afraid of the poorhouse.

Mike

"It’s amazing the amount all of you know.."
It’s also amazing the amount all of us don’t know. Like why an outboard pod is not advisable, especially the pods shown in those photos. I don’t argue that it cannot be done well, but the doer must be someone who understands the potential problems. In my opinion, it is not a good idea for your first venture away from standard. If you watched the video provided by Mijostyn, pay special attention to the discussion and views shown of the underside of the AR XA chassis, with the T-shaped heavy metal brace that links the tonearm pivot to the bearing. The narrator discusses the significance of that idea; you don’t want the tonearm and the bearing to be independent of one another structurally or in terms of how external forces affect them.

Lewm- appreciate the heads up. It’s going to take a minute to sort out all the information on this thread alone much less other information gathered on the subject.

It might be most cost effective to get a VPI gimballed Fatboy and call it a day. It would be integrated structurally with the rest of the turntable since it’s made to go with the existing tonearm’s base. It is gimballed so should complement the Lyra Kleos cartridge better, I wouldn’t have to waste $170 on a dual pivot for the current arm. And the professional set up cost of about $200 wouldn’t have to be redone if I upgraded at a later date to a better tonearm.

I’m thinking out loud here.

Mike

@skyscraper

I’m not a fan of external arm boards. Instead of explaining the technical reasons, which will invite another 50 odd posts debating the issue, the reasons I would give are

- ugly

- if the cleaning person lifts the pod to dust underneath, and forgets to tell you they may have moved it, you will likely end up with misstracking and damaged records.

You stated that you wanted to keep the Classic 2 for the long haul. If that is so it may be possible to mount a surface mounted arm as @lewm suggested with minimum intrusion into the plinth - 3 screws that when removed could be plugged and touched up quite easily.

Another possibility for a surface mount arm would be to get an arm board cut and use the existing VPI screw holes to mount the arm board. Then mount the surface mount arm to the arm board. This would mean no extra holes in the existing plinth.

The only question with this solution is whether there is enough height from plinth to top of platter to accommodate arm board plus arm and allow plenty of VTA adjustment.

The tonearm manufacturer should be able to advise you of the minimum height from arm board to platter top required.

It’s also amazing the amount all of us don’t know. Like why an outboard pod is not advisable, especially the pods shown in those photos

Technically, outboard armpod is not the best solution, but OP want to try other tonearm without drilling, that's one of the option to consider. I did try diy armpod and found the result was quite good, the real problem was repositioning the armpod back to its spot as @dover point out.

The OP does not need to spend substantial monies to achieve a Design for a Tonearm Pod that will enable them to try out a alternative Tonearm and not butcher the Plinth of the TT, risking de-valuing it by potentially much more than the cost incurred to produce a Pod.

A Thick walled hollow metal billet with the selected diameter, can be machined with a very tight tolerance for the overall length dimension.

These can be found at an engineering shop as a waste item cut off.

The Side wall can have a Slot produced to allow a Cable routing.

The Base can be Tripod Configured Drilled and Tapped to receive a footer.

The Top Face can be drilled and tapped to receive the a Top Plate for the Tonearm.

Materials of choice and selected thickness can be selected to produce a Top Plate, the thickness should prove to be a tuneable material, and trialling a selected thickness can create a preferred interface.

The type of above task is the kind of undertaking a trainee will be given at a machine shop, and the charge will be reflective of this.

A Lead Shot mixed with a modellers clay such as Newplast can be used to fill the void and add mass, that should prove to be a tuneable material by adding or removing, again trialling a volume of mass, can create a preferred interface. 

To somebody that is toying with the idea of trying out a New Tonearm and expressing a want to learn about lathe machining, an investigation into producing a Pod will be a good place to start, especially when a dialogue can be had with a professional metal worker

Note: As an advisory for a TT that is valued and has the pride of ownership attached that many do, keep Children, Grandchildren, Pets and Cleaners well away from the device, it will most likely all end in tears for the Kleos, and possibly even the Tonearm.   

  

Dover, reusing the same holes is clever. I’ll have to think about that one. I really don’t want to start another project though, like trying to install another type arm that might not correctly fit or the installation end up being screwed up somehow. I’ve been doing things along those lines most of my life during various and sundry pursuits. usually with good results. But I’m leery of trying it with this type of equipment as a rookie, It could easily be a recipe for disaster. That is a clever and tempting idea though.. I’ll have to sleep on it.

Imhififan, I give you credit for giving an outboard arm a try.

I’m thinking tonight about ways to pay for the expensive, easily retrofit gimbaled Fatboy. Maybe I can get a trade in on my current tonearm, or a discount on the list price of a Fatboy, or find one used but not abused, or even sell my current Ortofon 2M Black cartridge to defray cost. I’ve got to think about that approach for a while too. But where there’s a will there’s a way

Again, I appreciate everyone’s suggestions and ideas. Plenty of food for thought, Maybe I’ll start a thread on gimbaled Fatboys to get an idea how they compare with other tonearms in their price range. If other cartridges are much better in comparison that would provide impetus to the thought of installing a custom arm board. Lots to consider while breaking the bank.

Pindac, you’re certainly a DIY (do it yourself) guy, which I admire. I’m not with my stereo equipment for the most part as I’ve learned to accept my limitations.

On your second point, I can lock my equipment up behind doors if any kids are around. No pets are allowed in the house. And no miscreants either for that matter, who like to admire and touch my stereo or books. My late wife was an exception to that rule, because she might give me a good whack if need be,

Mike

 

Is there an option on the Fatboy to have period of use prior to committing to the purchase.

It may incur an outlay, but at least it does not require a permanent loss of funds, if the device does not meet your expectations.

I have made a Transportation Box for my TT and it is a very good method to take my TT to other homes or events to be used for demonstrations.

The Box is approx' 2" (50mm) oversized on all dimensions and has hand hold points cut into the sidewalls.

A semi hard foam is used internally on the sidewalls and a softer foam is used as the base padding and to pack the top before the lid is attached.

The TT could be arranged to be taken to another premises to be demonstrated against other Vinyl Set Ups.

I am regularly participating in these types of encounters, and have learned a vast amount from the experiences met.

This method can at the least, create a situation where other enthusiasts are met and their experiences are drawn on.

The ultimate is that the encounter introduces you to an experience that shows the quality of your own set up, or if the set up is bettered by other devices in use.

I have done the above for both Idler Drive and Direct Drive TT's, along with other owned devices and have been very satisfied with the outcome of the encounters and the friendships that have developed.

Many HiFi Systems are in the hands of individuals that are insular and the systems are not encountered by many, other than the user with the interest, and the quality of the system, is solely an assessment of one individual only.

This as an attitude is quite limiting and the mindset can easily develop, where a individual believes their choices are absolute and without question.

I can assure you there is no harm that can be done in meeting others and experiencing their choices they have made, even better when an option arises for the chance to experience ones own choice made for a device in a different system.             

Dover nicely summarized your options in the very first response to your question. The subsequent posts delineate your best specific options in alternative tonearms. The choice for a course of action yours.

you could ask yourself what is the penalty in the re-sale value of your Classic, if you have to drill new holes,  and count that as an added cost of the upgrade.

 

@skyscraper : " I’m thinking tonight about ways to pay for the expensive, easily retrofit gimbaled Fatboy. "

"" know how those VPI gimballed Fatboys compare to any other tonearms in the $4500 price range. ""

If you decide to go for that VPI I think is way better to go with an overall way better TT/tonearm as the Rega RP-10 for almost the same price of that VPI tonearm. Do it you a favor and re-read not only the linked reviews of the Rega but the Rega site information with the Stereophile M.Fremer review. Another advantage is that the Rega was reviewed with Lyra cartridges including the Kleos. With this alternative you could put on sale your Classic VPI TT/tonearm along the Ortofon cartridge.

 

In the other side good that you decided not to go behind that stupid stand alone arm pod advise.

 

Put your money where it counts.

 

R.

Lewm. you’re right, dover hit the nail on the head right out the gate. Options are limited with VPI’s design. I’m not concerned with resale value as aforementioned. I’m not planning on selling the Classic 2, and I’d not want to attempt any mods on it where I might potentially screw it up. I’m happy to have it as it.is in that respect.

Raul, I appreciate your advice, and it is sound and sensible. But at $7000 retail for the RP-10, I’m not looking to make that kind of outlay, plus have to change out and sell my VPI Classic 2, tone arm and cartridge to make it happen. I started out only wanting to upgrade a cartridge and did stretch my budget to order the Lyra Kleos. Honestly you all convinced me to do that for excellent reasons, Your above suggestion although probably equally sound is really way more than I’d like to deal with on top of getting the Kleos.

I’d take a serious look at the RP-10’s tonearm by itself if it would retrofit onto the VPI Classic 2’s tonearm base, but it doesn’t appear that it will without modifying that base. And i’m unsure if there is any issue with its’ height on that platform. I’ll look for the Fremer review anyway, as I’m not sure if that’s the one I read. In any event thank you for your thoughtful suggestion.

One other thing Raul, please do not address others suggestions on my thread as stupid. A modicum of tact is called for. Other’s ideas are expressed with the best of intentions just as yours are. Whether they are knowledgeable as you or not, or their suggestions are as good or not, that part is up to me to sort out on my thread. They are after all graciously taking their time to be of assistance. I hope this suggestion does not put you off, as I do appreciate your advice and knowledge, and that you have taken the time to generously share it on my behalf here.

Pindac, I wish there were others here near home to visit and share an interest in audio with, as you seem to be able to. Unfortunately I can’t find any. A local dealer told me years ago there was an audio club in Roanoke, but it’s long gone. That’s the peril of living out in the countryside. The Audiogon site really does help in this regard.

Mike

Mijostyn,  My only point was that the example shown is not relevant to the proof that the pivot should be level with the plane of the LP. He raises the AR XA tonearm pivot, causing the headshell to tilt up at the rear, in order to get it to move forward when it encounters a warp.  That kind of loads the dice in his favor. It does not describe the most usual case, where the arm/headshell is parallel to the LP surface regardless of where the pivot is located in space.  Since watching the video, I have figured out for myself that the principle is valid; the pivot ideally should lie in the plane of the LP surface.  For a pivot close to but not quite in the plane of the LP surface, the putative increase in warp wow is probably not such a big deal I would say.  I was surprised in the video that I could clearly hear a deviation in frequency from 1000Hz to 1002Hz.  (I could hear 1002Hz almost as obviously as I could hear 1005Hz.) I don't really think I can hear that in real life; perhaps his instrument is damped enough that it doesn't display the actual peak readings for a brief pulse. Or my sense of pitch is better than I think.

I do own classic 3 and change arm to 3D gimbal .

great arm and better with low compliance cart that I have before .

fit and finish nice and look better too on classic .

Thanks honeyool. I hope that's the case with the Fatboy too which is also a 3D model for the most part anyway. I just stated a new thread on the Fatboys to get  advice on those.

@skyscraper : Looks as you really did not care enough when you read it the Rega links because the price is 5.7 K not 7K that’s the price including Rega cartridge.

 

VPI TT/tonearm you own is really an entry level and normally not always: entry level audio item is in the lower part of the manufacturer item models and this means inside mediocrity/average level, its price tells you about. That Classic VPI TT can work with the Fatboy or any top tonearm you like but that it can work does not means is a good " place to mount the FB along the Kleos.

 

I don’t care what you could buy but you already bougth the Kleos and that specific cartridge model along top Lyra models were mounted in that " inexpensive " Rega plattform/tonearm with excellent results for experienced gentlemans that know about quality level performance . As M.Fremer they mounted too other top cartridges coming from Dynavector and Ortofon with the same success.

I made it to you an stupid advise when posted of that " second pivot " that in reality is not a true pivot and that does not solve the VPI tonearm problem you have for that Kleos. Next is a Lyra " warning " in his site for its cartridges:

 

" tonearms with rigid bearing(s), "

but when we go to better tonearms is critical the plattform/TT where we want to mount it for it works at its best and you have not that kind of plattform/TT. I think you need a new TT/tonearm for that Kleos if you want really enjoy the best that that cartridge can shows you.

 

Yes, I’m still think that not only my second pivot advise was stupid one but the stand alone arm pod for you it is too.

 

R.

 

@lewm , Yes, he is increasing the VTA when he does that but that is not what is causing the wow. Thanx for watching the video. I think you agree that it is an excellent primer.

@skyscraper , Having looked at pictures of your table, you have a tonearm board screwed to the upper surface of the plinth. Using the same screw holes you can mount any 9 or 10" arm on any size tonearm board as long as the arms are surface mount. But in thinking about it @rauliruegas advice is probably the best. You might think about selling what you have as a unit and getting a new table/arm combination like a Rega RP 10 or a Sota Sapphire with a Rega RB 3000 arm. 

@skyscraper Good Luck with your investigations into the options to experience new equipment within your system.

From your posts I sense you are a individual who has a background of thoroughly enjoying your encounters with music through the methods that you have chosen to participate in it. Maybe a Live Music Experience or a bit of R&R in front of the Home System.

Myself today, I share in the above history and even more crazily I treasure the moments sitting with my wife listening to her Alexia and her calling music up from our past, this as an activity that can be at certain times the bulk of my music encounters along with the Vehicles Radio.

Enjoying music and enjoying Hi Fidelity can easily become parallel universes.

There is another side to building a HiFi System that can create a side line interest, the interest is one that develops in not too many, and the development can quite easily manifest in some as an obsessional behaviour where the individual can become very insular and lose sight of the enjoying the music, it is all analysis, analysis, analysis.

My own history has been to go over the cliff with the obsession overloading the mind, but I have for many years walked free from it.

Wearing the weight of obsession, takes myself too far from the term for an Audiophile that I will happily label myself with, ’being an individual that has a healthy want to enjoy music’.

While reading through your thread, I sense you have not developed an obsession with equipment, and the interest arose to build up a little more understanding about working with an Interface within your Vinyl Replay Set Up, which was met with descriptions that were new and proving to be a further stimulation to your present interest.

I think it is safe to suggest we are very similar in our approaches to our own systems, even though the experiences encountered are in a different quantity between us.

A large proportion of my time in the recent past has been working with the interfaces that are present within the system.

Mounting Methods, for the Overall Systems Devices and Mounting Methods for singular devices such as a Chassis to a Plinth Material and a Tonearm to a Plinth Material or Tonearm Base Material, add to that Head Shell Materials and Platter Mat Materials.

There is a lot of Pro’s and Con’s to be discovered when trying out materials and devices within a system, but as described previously, there are differences that can be detected and some are preferred to to be kept, but I do not believe any one makes the music less enjoyable.

Putting this into context, I have an LP I have owned for nearly 40 Years, the first time I listened to this Album was using a TT that was worth very little money, and was all things a TT should not really be, but I loved every minute of the replays and have kept the LP close.

When listening to the LP throughout the years and today on a equipment totally correct for the replay of a LP, the enjoyment factor of listening to the LP has never  increased, the change is, the satisfaction with the equipment being used, this has increased substantially.  

The other side to interfaces is the Electrical side of the equation, Power, Phono RCA and Speaker Cable Types. Cable Plugs and Tube Rolling.

These are all able to participated in with a minimal user input, and can be achieved through a frugal or substantial outlay or even loaned for the items to be tried, and through all the above experiences being encountered the need has not arose to change owned Electronic equipment used in the system for many years.

I do have a social outlet as well, and I do get great pleasure out of introducing others to some of the items I have acquired that I feel has been able to make a impression, or not.

It is quite interesting to discover a ’or not’ for one system can be a most attractive when used in a new system and new environment.

I am sure your ongoing investigation will be fruitful and will bring you into the company of others that understand your intentions, and share with you encouragement.

To add further curiosity to your interest, I have PM’d you a link to a Web Site that might prove to be an enjoyable read.

 

 

Dear @mijostyn  : Yes the SOTA is very good plattform for tonearms. The Rega RP-10 advantage is not only that  for its quality level performance could be really a " bargain " item but that already was tested with Lyra cartridges with success.

Anyway, looks as the op wants to stays sticky to the Classic, to each his own. Nothing wrong with that.

 

R.

Than you Pindac for your interest and the link you have PMed. Some folks here, like you , have progressed father into this field than I’m ever likely to. Be that as it may, it’s a complicated hobby to enjoy, but not yet an avocation.. I’ll never reach the skill or knowledge level of some of the respondents here, but there’s no reason to have to. It is a joy though to be able to appreciate the knowledge you all so graciously share. Like equipment reviews their shared knowledge gets over my head at times, but no matter, I sort it out best I can to make better informed decisions.

Mike, check out my current thread on Fatboys, Thanks. No new turntables for me though, unless they are presents or I win the lottery. You and your compatriots have already done more than enough on the new purchase front. convincing me to purchase a Lyra Kleos, and now maybe a new tonearm. You’ll not squeeze a new turntable out of me. Take it easy,

Mike

Mijo, I apologize for being pedantic, but you wrote, "Yes, he is increasing the VTA when he does that but that is not what is causing the wow. Thanx for watching the video. I think you agree that it is an excellent primer."

I do agree the video is instructive. Not flawless from a science point of view, but useful nevertheless. But when you increase VTA such that the headshell is no longer parallel to the LP surface, especially by the extent that he does in the video, you do increase warp wow for only that reason, even if the pivot point does lie in the plane of the LP surface.  Think about it.  It's just worse if also the pivot point is high.

Raul, you’re no doubt absolutely correct that a new platform may be the best way to go and would facilitate purchasing a higher quality or more economical tonearm to go with the Lyra Kleos. But you and Mijostyn are in the big leagues with this kind of thing and aren’t phased by dealing with things like that, whereas I’m only in the minor leagues. As such, I think I’ve a greater chance of achieving some success within my capabilities, by following the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) model by way of a possible simple VPI Fatboy retrofit on the existing platform.

Mike

@skyscraper 

I think you are choosing a wise course. Gather deep experience before attempting something really complex. 

Ghdprentice, thanks. I’d rather not risk the system I have now in any way by overreaching. It’s a miracle to have relatively high quality stereo equipment in the first place, even if it’s only at the low end of the high end, So I’m counting my blessings and playing it safe Either old age and/or common sense are kicking in, Never been to either of those places before to know,

Mike

@skyscraper 

😀👍

@lewm, lets see if we can sort this out.

In all cases when you increase VTA by lifting the back of the head shell you have to be raising the pivot unless you bend the tonearm just behind the head shell to increase VTA that way. Do that in your head. So now you have a very high VTA and a bent tonearm with it's pivot point at record level. Now run it around 360 degrees and draw a circle. It is the same circle with a very slightly shorter radius. The translocation of the stylus is exactly the same as when the arm was straight. WOW does not change until you move the center of the circle. 

Yes, there are a few errors in the video the worst being the discussion on anti skating. But, it is highly instructional and his methods are fairly easy for people to grasp like the difference between stable and neutral balance. 

I’ll PM you to respond about pivot height.

Dear @skyscraper  : " whereas I’m only in the minor leagues..."

Well, problem is your knowledge level on the whole issue.

 

Look, today almost no one is looking to buy ( second/third hand. ) the VPI rig model you own that's out of production and as you leave that time goes on/pass your unit re-sale prices will and is lower and lower faster than you can imagine. In the other side your VPI tonearm is not a " desirable " one for any audiophile.

 

You are talking that over time buy the 4.5K VPI FB tonearm and this is up to you.

Now, you get for 4K a new and way better TT/tonearm combination that works just fine with the Kleos and almost any other cartridge and that TT/tonearm is the Technics 1200G, way superior to what you own today and this could be your alternative not the FB. Again, is up to you.

 

 

R.

 

 

 

Here a post by an Agoner that own it and has mounted on it a cartridge in the same league than the Kleos.:

 

 

VPI make great turntables and arms. In the high end community there are different brands and sounds that fit different peoples values. VPI is one of the. I owned a VPI Table for over 20 years it performed better than many of the tables recommended by others. When folks really get into this… they can pursue their own tastes to incredible levels… and think it applies to all. You have a great table and arm.

Raul, thank you for an interesting suggestion on the Technics. I’ve taken a look at the links you provided, and watched the Fremer youtube video where Fremer compared the Technics to a $100,000 turntable in a side by side listening comparison. Also watched a follow-up video to that by an engineer, and read a review by Absolute Sound

Ghdprentice, i do really like the VPI Classic 2. Especially so after acquiring some accessories like upgraded Isoacoustic isolation feet and the periphery ring for it. I hate to think about changing it out even though there might be better models out there for the dollar, such as the Technics SL 1200g Raul suggests.

Thank you for your encouragement and common sense. It’s very much appreciated. By the way, did you previously mention what table you have now. I’m just curious, and nosey enough t ask. If it happens to be the Technics SL 1200g, don’t tell me.

Mike

Chuckle. I now own a Linn LP12 with Koetsu Rosewood Signature. To gain back some of the solidity I lost from my VPI I added a Silent Running Audio isolation platform. I like it… and actually have their highest level tone arm waiting to be installed… I have the intermediate one now (~$2,800). I will be interested in hearing the difference.

 

I thought long and hard about the turntable change before doing it. While based on SQ research I also let a bit of nostalgia and desire to have something that looked good. For all of my 50 my years pursuing the high end I never had enough money to allow looks to enter the equation… it was sound quality only… and always a compromise for that. But I am retired and, well could afford to let looks enter the picture. Also, my friend and audio dealer is a Linn master technician and knows my taste in sound well… he loves working on turntables. So, ultimately a great decision. Another thing I liked about Linn was upgradability. I know myself, I will not be happy until I get to the top. I am now only one upgrade away from the top… it sounds fantastic.

While I am not an expert, I am not a Technics fan… my good friend (above) is an expert and is in agreement. He has worked on and tuned different generations of them. Turntable sound is very personal. Some like a “lively” sound. I like a more solid with and exceptional quite background… to my understanding that takes mass or incredible isolation.

I can agree with the statement by @ghdprentice  that a 'Turntable sound is very personal' and that the choice made for Isolation is of importance.

I started out with Belt Drives, and followed spending many years with Idler Drive and today have a DD as my most used TT.

I still make sure I experience all TT Drive types to keep my ear in tune to the recognisable differences that can be perceived.

From many encountered experiences, I have found that a structure built from differing devices and materials has proven to be invaluable for supporting a TT, and in a lesser perceived impression can be quite valuable for other devices to be mounted on within a System.

One individual I know has a selection of mounting materials for their owned SUT's and one model is used seated on a 25mm Thich Stainless Steel Plate.

The use of a Footer Type in contact with the Racks Support Shelve and Sub Plinth > then a Different Footer Type in between Sub Plinth and the TT Plinth is from my experience the method that seems to offer the best for decreasing smearing and improving micro details.

The materials used in the assembly can also have an effect on how the frequency extremes are perceived as well.  

As a DIY approach a Sub Plinth can be tried in differing materials and of differing thicknesses, and enable a insight into how these assemblies can perform in a particular environment.

A Sub Plinth such as a Sand Box ( when assembled the structure will be a Three Tier Assembly of Materials) can also be produced, with a Kiln Dried Sand used as a infill material, a friend uses one in his environment and will not change it.

There are endless commercial items on offer that can extend to being as costly as a expensive TT Set Up.

The first experience of such ideas does not need to be expensive, and might prove to supply a mounting method that might allow the Kleos to show of some of its inherent values with an increased impression for the better, as managing unwanted transferral of energies within the listening environment are now better considered. 

 

Ghdrpentice, good luck getting to that last upgrade, certainly a worthy goal. VPI has some of that upgrade capability too as you know. Sounds like you put a lot of thought into your turntable choice and it’s paid off for you right down to having some "looks" to it.

Having a friend who’s a Linn Master Technician is fortuitous too. I mostly have friends who’ve never heard of high end stereo equipment. The only acquaintance  who has is a neighbor, who I gave all my old Phase Linear equipment and Dahlquist DQ 10’s to. I didn’t know another soul out here in the country who would have even known, much less appreciated, what that vintage equipment was.

Pindac, like you say it is important to have an effective system of vibration isolation.. I used some of techniques you mentioned in building the shelving housing my components,

The turntable itself was retrofitted with Isoacoustic feet which sit on a marble slab, floating on a layer of meshed foamlike material, sitting on a floating shelf of 3/4" cross ply Baltic birch, floating on another layer of soft mesh in turn resting on a regular 3/4" plywood connected to the side walls. I don’t know if this makes the sytem any quieter as I’ve never had the equipment situated elsewhere, but I sure hope so for the effort put into it. All the components now have the Isoacoustic brand feet for the same purpose as isolating the turntable, since that seemed to work so well in that application.

Mike

I have the Brand Solid Tech - Feet of Silence' and  Audio Technica's  - AT-616 Footers in use under my TT, and will when I have a functioning HiFi room back in place, will be trialling Panzerholz and Permali Boards in place of a Highly Compressed PUR Foam (750Kg per cubic metre) that I have been using for a few years now.

As said previously, I am happy to loan items out and the Local Group I belong to, and am meeting with today are now using the Brand Isoacoustic Footers under their TT's, CDP , CDT > DAC's and Speakers.

Very recently a New to the Group Valve Amp, during the demonstration had a noticeable looseness to the lowest Bass Notes, Isoacoustic Feet were used under the amp' and the Bass become taught to a very noticeable degree.

Drawing on experience the best way to assess an impact a material or device can have is to live with it for a period and then go in reverse to return the Set Up to the earlier used method. It will be instantaneous where the difference are to be found and at what point the change occurred.

You have nice materials acquired to be sure any further investigation into producing a support structure is chosen to be undertaken, the trials are to be supported with desirable to own footer ancillaries.

The good news is that the response to an inquiry from almost all of the forum members, is not in any way a mimic of the Caricature of the Eighties/Nineties HiFi Retail attitudes as portrayed in the Link.   

Enjoy the moment of satire.  

 

 

@skyscraper  : "  i do really like the VPI Classic 2...... I hate to think about changing it out .."

 

The whole issue tells that it's not what you think ( that could be wrong or rigth. ) but what you need what that Kleos needs. You bougth that cartridge because you want an overall higher/better quality room/system performance.

Reading your posts in this and your other threads maybe the best for your " brain " calm is to listen your new cartridge for a while ( with out any VPI change. ) and to look for an opportunity to listen the Kleos in other system to know if it's valid for you a change of that VPI or just stay with. Through several posts in your threads you already have all options about, so just take your time and learn through your first hand experiences with your new cartridge. Just wait for it. before you could have a total mix-up with somany different posts.

 

R.

Pindac, that video was a scream. Thanks. Always good to be able to laugh at yourself. I was amazed how many changes had occurred in high end audio when I tried picking up an interest in it again after having not having purchased a single new component since 1979.

Raul, I appreciate your excellent advice, and you are undoubtedly correct the Kleos would be better served by upgrading the Classic 2. However I’m pretty content with what I have now with the exception of the current Ortofon 2M Black cartridge being replaced. And I’ve been fairly well convinced an upgraded tonearm should be in the offing at a future date. But that’s where I need to stop now, as wringing the best performance possible out the Kleos is not my highest priority at present

I’d rather spend my resources, time and energy on pursuits other than audio now. I really don’t wish to do surgery on my turntable, or have to go to the trouble of selling it, or researching and finding and installing an upgraded turntable, even if it would improve my system.

I’ve already spent way more than anticipated on the Kleos alone, much less considering getting a tonearm upgrade and/or a whole new turntable. I’d prefer to move on to other pursuits. I’d like to travel and see the Sistine Chapel for example and do some other more mundane things that require time, resources and energy. I hate to be spouting such audio heresy on Audiogon, but shamefully, there it is.

I’m still enjoying the thrill of having the Classic 2 and all my other new components, and am perfectly happy with them for now. I never thought I’d have such a grand stereo system, I realize there’s always something better and you’ve pointed out some good examples, even economical ones, but I think I’ll stand pat, cool my jets for a while and enjoy what I have. Hope you understand, and thanks for all the good advice.

Mike

 

 

@skyscraper , I think that is exactly what rauliruegas had in mind. 

Did you detect the very young Mr Bean in his early in life role, as a Sales Representative for Trio TT's.

The Customer was to become the Director of the early Mr Bean Movies  

A visit to Rome will be an amazing experience there really is an amazing architecture and ancient structure to be seen almost everywhere when within close proximity to the River Tiber.

Romulus and Remus have left a legacy that Multiple Millions if not Billions are enchanted by and compelled to experience.    

Mijostyn, very well could be.

 

Pindac, sure did.recognize Rowan Atkinson .Used to watch him back in the eighties in Blackadder, which was hilarious.

This has nothiing to do with audio, but I’d really like to see Rome and Florence. I was stationed in Stutttgart, Germany in 1980. Right before I finished my tour, some friends invited me on a trip to see both those places, traveling in the luxury of their brand new American car. Just my luck on delivery to them the car had a defective engine, and they couldn’t a part needing to be replaced from the US before I shipped out. I’ve always regretted missing that opportunity.

Mike

Maybe the trip can be planned to incorporate the enjoyment of music, there are a lot of live performances that are arranged to be performed within the confines of ancient structures.

It does not seem too far stretched to acquire a ticket to a concert during your trip.

I spent the afternoon yesterday with an owner of a Garrard 401 with a Origin Live Tonearm and Sumiko Pearwood Cartridge.

The 401 Owner recently sold their SME 20/12 and SME V Tonearm and was keen to receive a assessment from the local group of the new TT Set Up.

For the occasion, I supplied various Patter Mats, various Platter Spindle Weights produced from different materials, Panzerholz Sub Plinths and AT-616 Footers.

The attendees have all been quite familiar with the SME Set Up and the system the Garrard 401 was demonstrated in.

After a few configurations of ancillaries used along with the TT, the performance was superb, the changes were not nominal but quite noticeable.

One attendee claimed that the simplicity of the changes made and the impact on the SQ, was akin to having put a Cartridge put into the Set Up at twice the value of the Sumiko.

I agree without reservation, there was substantial changes made for the better, just by swapping the materials used in the support structure and the weights of a Platter Spindle Puck in use. 

As there was such a impression made and detected by all the attendees, I was asked to describe my reasons for suggesting making the changes, and it was solely that my experiences has shown certain things I have perceived as being unattractive, can be diminished quite substantially by changing the environment the Cartridge functions in.

For me the environment is not the ambience of the room, but the materials the Cartridge is sharing its connection to the LP with.   

This starts from the Rack, Rack Shelve and is then considered up through the structure and is not stopped until the contact the LP has with materials is addressed.

I was able to show an improvement yesterday with a few trusted material exchanges, if I was able to sit with the TT for a few hours and work with the material exchanges further, on all parts belonging to the support structure,  I feel sure there was a further improvement to be eked for the better of the Cartridge.      

I inform you of this as the Sumiko and Kleos are of a similar purchase value.

The Origin Live Tonearm 'Illustrious' model and your own Tonearm, even though not the same mechanical designs, might have similarities through the constraints for the design.

The above info' is made known, as investigating a little further into your mounting methods, the swapping of Sub Plinth materials can be quite cheap, your footers are already addressed.

The discoveries made, might impress you even further when the honeymoon period is ending with the Cartridge.

Being familiar with the Carts capabilities in the present set up is a very good start point, the suggestions I have made are not ones that will expose the Cart' to a risk of damage.

The idea to experiment and create an interface that is proving to be a better environment for the Cartridge to function in is the goal.