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Spend most on speakers, speakers make the greatest difference IMO. Amps have ruler flat responses and almost immeasurably low distortion.
If your power amp has volume controls, try as an experiment by-passing your pre-amp. Plugging in for example your CD output into your power amp, with your power amp turned down - of course). See what difference your pre-amp makes. |
Source is most important. The sound can only degrade from there as you go through the signal chain. So turntable (arm/cartridge/phono stage/table), integrated amp (keep as many interconnects out of the chain as possible), speakers. Of course you want to get speakers you like and ensure the amp has the power to get the most out of them, but this is not the typical advice you get from dealers as the margins are higher typically with speakers than the other parts.
And don't forget cables, isolation treatment if necessary, and room placement.
It is impossible to put precise percentages in each area, but be logical. If you have a $10K budget, don't spend $8K on a turntable unless you are planning on upgrading the other stuff down the line. Have an end goal in mind, and then if you are like a lot of Goners, the end goal never stays the same.
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cclee2022 If you are looking for a great pairing for the XT2 I would highly recommend the Lumin X1 and AMP. I had this combo with the XT1, TD1.2 and TD3.2's. Outstanding synergy..
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I think the biggest flaw in assigning a budget % to each piece of the audio chain is that it doesn't take future changes/upgrades into account. Here's how I would approach building a systems based on my limited experience.
First, try to figure out what a realistic goal is for your system. When I purchased my Focal 836v speakers I had the opportunity to listen to nearly everything in the Focal lineup from the $500 bookshelf speakers to the Grande Utopia EM speakers. I never considered that a $30,000 speaker, for example was a realistic option for me and ended up selecting the 836v that was the most expensive speaker that I could afford. I have always liked the Focal sound and have never regretted my purchase.
My speakers were initially paired with the SACD player (still use) and Onkyo receiver that I already had. I almost immediately upgraded the receiver with an Integra receiver (the goal was to still be able to do home theater) and I still have this receiver in my home theater setup.
I eventually added a stereo amplifier and have had several different ones. My current Pathos Classic One MkIII (with vintage Mullard tubes) seems to be my "forever" amplifier.
I recently did an op amp upgrade on my DAC which gave me some perspective on how significant the role of a quality source is. I have a little bit of pro audio experience and know that gain structure is important and in a practical sense means that any flaws in the signal just get more amplifier at each step in the system. If your source produces a noisy signal then your preamplifier and amplifier can only amplify the signal they are given and a quality speaker will expose it.
The issue with starting at the source is that the speakers plays the most significant role in the final sound of your system, so if you don't like the characteristic sound of your speakers I don't think a perfect source will change your mind.
I would recommend investing in a speaker that you love and is expected to be capable of achieving the sonic quality that you desire. I had the opportunity to listen to my chosen speakers in the main room that was setup for the Grande Utopia EM speakers, so was able to evaluate what they were capable of.
I was also able to listen to the $500 bookshelf speakers on the same system and even though they sounded pretty amazing, I could tell that I would want more than they could provide.
It's a journey. |
So now your saying I should make it now 20% for my cables....good bye. |
@limomangus - If you're not willing to give 120% or more then you're not trying :-) |
After reading through what others have posted, I wanted to follow up with the numbers from my system. I've never really looked at them from a % perspective.
1. Source (20%)
Bluesound Node 2i
Maverick Audio TubeMagic D2 DAC
Sparkos Labs upgraded discrete op amps for DAC - high value
Western Electric Vintage tube for DAC
Pioneer Elite PD-D6-J SACD player
2. & 3. Amplification (39%)
Pathos Classic One MkIII
Mullard Vintage tubes for amplifier - high value
4. Speakers (38%)
Focal Chorus 836v
5. Cables and Power (3%)
Blue Jeans 10 AWG speaker cables
Blue Jeans Coaxial Digital
Blue Jeans Stereo Audio (3x)
APC H10
Total $8,000 |
I wasn't too worried about the amp as long as it was quality built and powerful...but the Benchmark AHB2 changed the game for me. It made a very noticeable difference in my music.
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The SOURCE (LP or Digital) is the most important thing and its integrity is responsible for more than 50% of the sound quality.
Oh, except for the quality of the AMPLIFICATION (preamp+amp) which is responsible more than 50% of the sound quality.
Oh, except that the SPEAKERS have the greatest variability, and are responsible for more than 50% of the sound quality.
Oh, and don't forget the ROOM. It will color everything, and is responsible for more than 50% of the sound you hear.
There you go...... It's all very logical. |
In my opinion this is a shifting % which is dependent on a few items. Budget, difficult speakers to drive and speakers that are extremely detailed. These items in my opinion will loosely dictate where the percentages of money should go assuming you plan on using a source, preamplifier and an amplifier. Source in vinyl is the platter, arm, cartridge, phonostage and cleaning machine. In digitial it is a transport, DAC and streamer.
A very modest budget will require more money to be placed into the speakers budget then followed by source. The pre and amplifier can be split.
A moderate budget will require the most money to be placed between the speakers and source, then followed by the preamplifier. As long as the speakers are friendly to amplifiers the amplifier will be last in line.
A budget where money is of little concern or you have spent the better part of a lifetime upgrading and now you are in that expensive category of equipment when upgrading then go fairly even in all the categories. The goal is to balance everything out because it will be really easy to hear the weak link when you have top tier equipment to chose from. Skimping anywhere will be heard. In this category the speakers will be slightly ahead of everything but source, amplifier and preamplifier all should be split as evenly as possible.
Difficult to drive speakers require quality amplification so go heavy there.
Lastly if the speakers you chose are extremely detailed then go heavy on the preamplifier and source.
Of course this is my opinion and how I went about thinking through my upgrade path and it worked well for me.
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IMO, From most to least important:
1. Budget
2. Room
3. Speakers
4. Amplification
5. Sources
6. Cables
7. Rack |
I've never built any system in nearly thirty years with a set percentage of budget for any particular element in chain. I've always started out with amp/loudspeaker as package deal, whatever loudspeaker I started out with required certain type of amplification, I purchase the best I can afford at this point. Rest of system follows from here.
Certainly, there is a certain percentage attached to each element at any single moment in time, just don't pay attention as I'm building system. I can only say that every single link in chain is important, when weak link discovered, 100% of my efforts and budget goes toward eliminating that weak link.
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I'll preface my statement with, I don't believe in absolutes in audio, because all rooms/systems are different. That being said, I recently changed from my Jeff Rowland 625 S2 amplifier to a pair of Jeff Rowland 735 mono-amps. My dealer(Albert at Precision Audio and Video) has stated for years that, "I never really heard my speakers and he recommended upgrading my amplifier." To say the amplifiers made a difference would be an understatement. My wife never comments when I change components. Her comments, "voices and instruments have more depth." I used REL G1 mkII subs with the JR 625 S2. I sold my REL G1 mkII subs. I prefer the sound of my system with the 735s, without the G1s compare to the sound of my system with the 625 S2 amplifier and G1s. So, in my case changing amplifiers made a significant difference. |
I spent 50% on speakers.... 60 % on amp , 50 % on sources.... |
^How much was spent on maths studies?:-) |
Everything adds to the sound quality, but some things count more than others. The speakers that you buy set the tone for the rest of the system. Expensive, very revealing speakers will be more sensitive to sources, amps, etc. "warmer," less detailed speakers will be more forgiving of other problems, so you will be able to spend less on the other components. That being said, I listen exclusively to digital these days, and with a very good DAC/power amp combo, you have the foundation for a system that will allow you to expand the quality of the speakers without having to upgrade everything. Remember that more than anything else, speakers play the biggest role in shaping the sound that you hear, while you don't have to shell out big bucks for an amp to get great sound out of them. Get the system set up for your budget and then upgrade things like cables, power conditioners, room treatments and the like. |
Op,
If possible, take the time to understand what is important to you in a system.
I have a pair of powered Dynaudio Focus in my living room and a pair of smaller Dynaudio Xeo in the bedroom. They share streaming music through a wireless hub controlled by my phone. I love it.
Even my lower end home theater receiver sounds good to me… and that’s blasphemy in these circles.
I’ve had separates and it’s not for me. Same with tubes.
My long winded point is try to listen to a range of systems before you decide on a budget. No need in building a dedicated audio wing on your home just to realize your cousins $1,500 system sounds pretty dang good. Or maybe it should be a two story wing, haha.
Run your own race, hope you enjoy your new system!
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Don’t forget those REALLY expensive fuses!!! |
A very interesting thread with no right or wrong answers IMHO. For me, the first component you want to get right is the speakers. Take your time and don't just buy what the local dealer tries to sell you. Then you match the amp / pre-amp or integrated. Depending on your budget, I would go integrated and then you can add a music server to the equation. So my vote is 35% speakers, 45% Dac and Music Server, and 20% amps. I just believe it is easy to change out amps so if you don't like them try something else. DAC's / Music Servers had a major major impact on my system. |
P.S. Cables, Power cords, Power Condtioners, fuses, isolation pods and room acoustics all play into the equation. However, that can be done later. |
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I think many, many really good speakers are short changed by the electronics they are paired with. Then they are sold in search of the perfect speaker. Spend money on really good electronics and get off the buy / sell speaker merry go round
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I’m years late to this discussion but I have good gear and somebody in 2024 might be reading this.
Without question and without an ounce of trolling, your power amp and cables are the most important components of your system. 50% amp, 25% cabling, 20% electronics, 5% speakers.
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50% amp, 25% cabling, 20% electronics, 5% speakers.
That's pretty radical.
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If I were to do it again it would be;
1) Speakers- 50%
2) DAC with Preamp -25%
3) Integrated Power Amp-20%
4) Wires -5%
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i enjoyed reading all the answer's and I am sure the fellow that asked about the percentage question is more confused now then before. I have been in audio since I was 12( now 69} and in MY experience it’s just trial and error. I will say the room is very important, cuz no matter how much you spend, you always “Hear” your room, for good or bad. Overtime, my taste in sound signature changed from bright and loud to warm and laidback. I just did a lot of reading and the consensus for my taste was I needed a Pass Labs amp. Bought what I could afford (Pass 60) and later on got the Pass 250. Done with amp and very happy with sound. Dac was a ;lot more trouble for me. I tired many, from Schitt Yggy to Denefries terminator Plus 12 anniversary. The Schitt was good for a minute, but ultimately the Holo Spring May KTE made me smile. Source was a Mac air which was good for a minute, then down the streamer rabbit hole. Tried all the Eversolo models from 6 to 8.The Hi Fi Rose 130. It took a aurender N200 to make me smile. I like very good mids and I researched that Dynaudio would foot the bill and it does. Wire and cord is another rrabbit hole. Research led me to cardas and that is what I tweak with.
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All you need for very good sound is a (preowned) Hegel 590 for 6k, and a great set of speakers. That’s it. Well, a decently set up room too.
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+1 unsound
politically incorrect it may be, but “WAF” is a factor, maybe even #2. some of us have little control over the room, which affects everything.
most of us follow an evolutionary path - trial and error. I would recommend prioritizing a keeper amp or speakers and build from there.
the “max out the source” hypothesis was proposed by Linn to sell turntables. Imho, it’s backwards.
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