I can't get past the first sentence of these posts anymore.
Have speakers really improved within the last 20 years??
Question:
I dont just want one example of a speaker from today that has a better measurement than another speaker from 20 years ago because that could just be a coincidence. I want to see IRREFUTABLE PROOF that most speakers today have a measured performance in at least one area that is better than most speakers 20 years ago.
When I look at a typical bookshelf speaker from 20 years ago versus one from today i see little difference. All i see is a wooden box, typically mdf with a pair of drivers in 'em. There would be a small crossover circuit inside and a bit of foam inside the box and that would be the end of the story. I would like to believe that speakers have gotten better but I see no reason to believe it. All I see is that speakers may have gotten brighter and brighter with time to dupe us into thinking we are hearing more detail.
This challenge is open to any audiophile or speaker designer reading this.
- If there is one measurement that would prove that speakers have indeed got better over the last 20 years, what would it be?
I dont just want one example of a speaker from today that has a better measurement than another speaker from 20 years ago because that could just be a coincidence. I want to see IRREFUTABLE PROOF that most speakers today have a measured performance in at least one area that is better than most speakers 20 years ago.
When I look at a typical bookshelf speaker from 20 years ago versus one from today i see little difference. All i see is a wooden box, typically mdf with a pair of drivers in 'em. There would be a small crossover circuit inside and a bit of foam inside the box and that would be the end of the story. I would like to believe that speakers have gotten better but I see no reason to believe it. All I see is that speakers may have gotten brighter and brighter with time to dupe us into thinking we are hearing more detail.
This challenge is open to any audiophile or speaker designer reading this.
95 responses Add your response
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Ignoring the obvious repetitive trolling and knowing full well that I will regret engaging.... If you really want to know, then perhaps you should do your own research and better define parameters. Are we interested in cost no object, SOTA offerings to compare? With the millions of dollars devoted to R&D and statement offerings, obviously those involved in those projects would not be working so hard for no results. Maybe read the press releases for these products to learn what improvements have been incorporated. Are we comparing designs at a specific inflation corrected price points? Then since entire teams are devoted to gaining a market advantage by providing more value to their consumers than their competitors, the successful companies must have metrics that measure cost adjusted performance. You might look at sales numbers and see what consumer categories have increased or declined. Anecdotally, I think my speakers are better than 20 years ago. I would hope yours are, too. If not, then I hope your fortunes improve to allow it, or you are content with the trade offs you have made to accommodate your personal circumstances. |
Question: kenjit has unwittingly asked a trick question. The answer is no. There isn't one. The trick is, because there can't be. One measurement can only measure one aspect. But there are near infinite aspects. No one of them can do what he asks. In fact, no amount of measurements can. Once again he's stuck chasing his own tail: Wants irrefutable measurements, but they still have to be voiced to his super refined hearing, even though you must prove it with measurements, which only he can approve, the measurements, with his super exquisite hearing, round and round and round we go, where we stop.... kidding! Never stops! |
You asked for one measurement to prove if speakers have gotten better, in speakers that one would be the FR. You’ll have to do the testing to prove it,yes and i asked you to explain how FR has gotten better? I do not recall seeing any graphs of FR from speakers over the years showing that it has become more flat. What do you mean by better? If you reread my original post, I said I wanted to see IRREFUTABLE PROOF of this. What proof has led you to this conclusion? |
They are better because I say so, and since I am the only measurement and judgement that matters, this case is closed.That is the wrong answer to my question. The challenge is to provide a measurement that proves that speakers have gotten better with time. Your opinion is NOT a measurement. I dont want opinions I want measurements. |
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@djones51 I asked what you mean when you say FR has gotten better? what is your definition of better FR? You're not looking at the right speakers.Which ones have you looked at? Name them your quest for the holy grail of speakers is for you to solve.No its not. The holy grail of every audiophile is BETTER SOUND QUALITY. Every audiophile should be equally concerned about this. If there is no proof that speakers are getting better then its nothing more than make believe and we are not making progress. What would be the point of that? |
Why don't you prove to everyone else that they are not versus demanding that everyone else provide you proof.Because I am not the one who wants audiophiles to be persuaded that progress is being made in speaker design and that speakers are getting better. Its the speaker industry and audiophile community that is responsible for that narrative. And as audiophiles it is our duty to challenge not only what the speaker industry wants us to believe but also to challenge our own beliefs and actions. Speaker designs do not get better with time, by default unless progress is made. So there is no proof required of that. It is self evident UNLESS proven otherwise. |
OP, I will offer this solution for your question. Please forward it to Wendell Diller at Magnepan and specifically reference the 20.1 with the 20.7 Sold today. I am certain he will be able to provide very accurate information regarding the exact improvements and measurements to satisfy your curiosity. Unless of course you think it is just some elaborate conspiracy to not still sell the 20.1 since it was not improved? They simply will not release a new model unless it is a measured improvement above the replacement. You will find differences in mass, the bass panel itself and magnets. Your ears will confirm with a simple A/B. I suspect he will view your question and scratch his head wondering if this guy has smoked his breakfast one too many times. |
I think I’ve got a line on this conspiracy theory now. We're all blowing it. The cover up isn’t that speakers haven’t been improving and the industry is lying to us. Speakers have definitely been getting better. The conspiracy is that this is being deliberately hidden from just kenjit. Lucky for us his denialism runs deep and he can’t be swayed. So nothing to see here. Move along. “It reminds me of that old joke- you know, a guy walks into a psychiatrist's office and says, hey doc, my brother's crazy! He thinks he's a chicken. Then the doc says, why don't you turn him in? Then the guy says, I would but I need the eggs.” I need new speakers. |
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Ok I’ll bite. Your obsession with objective measurement over subjective satisfaction is the problem here. As if you were an oscilloscope rather than a human. In almost all objective measures, vinyl records can’t compete with high resolution digital files as a storage medium. Yet the emotional and subjective nature of being a human means a lot of people (but not all) prefer to use vinyl. For them vinyl sounds better. There is nothing the oscilloscope can say or do to change that. So, are speakers now better at meeting the subjective preferences of a listener? Yes. Simply because nothing that was available 20 years ago is no longer available. All those designs, materials, and engineering solutions are still around. Nothing has been banned, nothing has been made obsolete by “the man”. All the choices of 20 years ago are still yours to make today. But new choices have been added in the last 20 years. If you want to listen to a material or a design that is novel, you can. Just like we now have vinyl and digital storage formats to chose from. So, yes, by definition, if nothing has got worse then any change is an improvement. Now, all you need to do is work out if your oscilloscope is up to the job of helping you make those choices. |
“Because I am not the one who wants audiophiles to be persuaded that progress is being made in speaker design and that speakers are getting better.” No, you’re the one trying to persuade the opposite. Prove it. You’ve provided nothing but observations with no graphs, charts or measurements to the contrary. Clowns be Clowning on Barnum Street |
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The holy grail of every audiophile is BETTER SOUND QUALITY." Actually, if this is true there can be no best, as there will always be something, one perceives as better. So, you are starting with unachievable goal. You are making measurements the ultimate qualifier, where in reality, it isn't. The satisfaction of the sound of the end user is. This is a dog chasing his tail argument. |
We didn’t have the super low distortion from dynamic drivers that is now available: https://www.vandersteen.com/news/the-truth-about-pistonic-driver-cones |
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You are asking for measurements. Then you say audiophiles want better sound quality. These two don't have to be mutually exclusive, but they don't always go hand in hand. I don't listen to measurements, I listen to music. And if speaker A measures better, but speaker B sounds better, which one do I want? Take all the time you need. Oz |
Kenjit, why are you continuing this question. I gave the proof and case is closed. Now here’s the next question, it’s on you to provide irrefutable proof that new speakers have not improved. I give you permission to carry on the proper research needed to answer this burning question that at least one person here is dying to know. |
Have speakers really improved within the last 20 years?? The subject title is a perfectly valid question, although the "irrefutable truth" aspect - of the party either for or against - is likely a more dubious matter. I’m not saying criteria couldn’t be outlined for an assessment into this inquiry, but I doubt whether the factors chosen would be universally accepted, or would in any case ever be the whole truth. The question itself seems to rile up a few, and that may be indicative in itself - if it weren’t for the fact that an air of redundancy seems to pervade this discussion, not least as initiated by one certain individual. And yet: why are some of us so invested in an unwavering need to believe what’s new is necessarily better? Is it to justify the merry-go-round of new purchases? Has marketing efforts bled into consumers for an alliance so strong that what’s dictated by the industry is automatically regarded as truth? Is it vanity? @audioguy85 -- A good design is a good design, whether old or new. I’m sure there are improvements in materials used, but that does not necessarily mean better sound, increased longevity maybe. The issue with most older speakers is the cone surround which rots and falls apart. Agreed, and by that token it could be deduced that a new speaker would only be (potentially) better by virtue of being new, insofar it was compared to a speaker of considerable age with all the entails in regards to possible wear and tear. Seriously, compared to a variety of new speakers of the time years ago with new speakers of today, within a comparable price range (adjusted for inflation), I guess there are both cases of evolvement in material use and digital implementation tools in particular that may come in handy sonically (and not least in an effort to streamline production and cut costs), just as well as there are cases of sonic degradation. The speaker-wheel was invented many years ago, and it has always come down to the abled individual, overall design prowess and adherence to physics that made the day. Indeed; new or old - if it is/was well made and designed it’s a good speaker, period. |
it’s on you to provide irrefutable proof that new speakers have not improved.Why does it matter who the onus is on? We are all audiophiles that seek better sound so you should be just as concerned as I am to know if speakers have really improved. It doesnt matter whether you prove that they have improved or they havent, either way we will know whether speakers are a hoax. How do you propose it can be proven that speakers have not improved over the last twenty years? How do you even do that? |
"We are all audiophiles that seek better sound": Better is in the eyes/ears of the beholder. Take the following survey as to who is better... -Gilligan -The Skipper -The Millionaire -The Millionare's Wife -The Movie Star (Ginger!!!) -The Professor -Mary Ann Thankfully, I never squandered my money on Green Mountain speakers to end up like you. DeKay |
Kenjit, we already know that they’ve improved. My verdict on the subject has been given. Since you’re the one in disbelief, show us that it’s not true. I know I have much more valuable things I can do with my time than to prove something to someone who wouldn’t believe it even if I did. The facts would become disputed as facts. That has been made very clear based on the large amount of data we have from previous threads and posts. Most audiophiles like spending time discussing what’s to like or dislike about products that hold interest to them, not try to dispel the validity of all products in general. This seems more like someone who dislikes the audiophile hobby in general. |