When do you know your system is pleasing to listen to? How do you conclusively prove to yourself that your system sounds good to you? How do you determine that you enjoy listening to music through your stereo? Do you have a suite of measurements that removes all shadow of a doubt that you are getting good sound, sound that you enjoy? Please share.
I suppose this thread might be viewed as part of Synergistic’s research.
How do you decide what products to listen to? A crystal ball?
Asking audiophiles what constitutes good sound is somehow intrinsic to Synergistic Research? LOL
Typically we look at measurements to determine what to listen to first, compatibility with our systems. Personally I tend to like amplifiers that double power as impedance halves, with high dampening factors. That said, it tells me nothing about what will sound best in my stereo, for that I listen, subjectively. Pretty much like other audiophiles who also own good sounding stereos.
Measurements are another tool that smart people know how to apply for example to help decide what products to choose to listen to so they can then make their subjective decisions about what sounds good more effectively.
What comes first the chicken or the egg?
How do you decide what products to listen to? A crystal ball? What looks good? What some guy on the internet or a reviewer says you should? Only the ones at the local dealer if there even is one near you? Only the ones in a friend’s house, if available?
Maybe. But if you are building a system with components, putting those into a room, and you want those components to perform well together and thereby have a better chance of sounding good or maybe even outstanding once you get that far best to learn to read and interpret measurements. Not that you might not stumble onto something good otherwise, but....facts matter. Especially technical ones. You can choose to ignore them but does not change the facts.
It seems the core of arguments here and on all other audio groups revolve around what it is that constitutes good sound with people on one side who all but claim subjective observations of sound quality are meaningless. That people who believe stereos that sound good to them, do in fact sound good, are somehow delusional. Question, where are these staunch objectivists defending their position that what subjectively sounds good is not necessarily the most important criteria where sound quality is concerned?
Good question. Really good question. So far as I can see all the answers boil down to, "I know it when I hear it." A majority go even beyond that, "I know it when I feel it." They talk about being drawn in, losing track of time, etc. One even went so far as to say, "When I can listen to Adele." Talk about a high bar!
But, unless I missed it, not a single one said, "When it measures good."
Amazingly, no one said, "When the double-blind test confirms it sounds good."
Astoundingly, no one said, "Well on account of expectation bias I am never really sure of anything."
So kudos compliments and atto-boys on a clever discussion topic. Still, don’t judge, as Stilgar might say, hastily. The question is, "How do you know". So it could be you got the answers you did because this is those of us who know. Could it be people insist on measurements because they don’t know what sounds good?
@roxy54you are in good company. Strange world where measure AND listen are on the fringe middle while the two warring flocks go at each other with blind religious fervor….
@danager what you call an adult conversation is laughable. This entire thread is a joke. The premise was to evoke a conversation leading to testimonials and shilling Teds over priced gear.
There has been no conversation here and it is the same old boring BS.
I will make a contribution for you, buy some decent cables, some magic elixir for your connectors and you will be in audio heaven.
Yawn…."
Did you stamp your foot when you wrote that?
Three pages of posts would probably disagree with there is no conversation here and your childish disregard for everyone who did participate with your one word condescending smirk is probably wondering like I am "Who the heck cares whether your bored or not and why if that's how you feel would you think its at all beneficial to the post to add it?"
I don't see a product mentioned in the OPs post. If I was in a business of providing products to a specialized demographic I'd also want to better understand my clientele.
If cables and elixirs bring you pleasure and that's how gauge your enjoyment great. That at least moves the conversation instead of detracting from it.
Very strange in a hobby that’s all about enjoying your stereo, which is wholly subjective, there are people who have a significant problem with this, to the point of religious fervor. Fanaticism.
That’s exactly right. And by definition, faith needs no proof. So those who cling to the measurementalist belief system soldier on, condemning those who disagree with accusations that they are deluded, insane, stupid, shills, trolls, and on and on and on. Some become so strident and obnoxious that they eventually get been banned by the moderators. It’s been that way here for quite a while.
@danager what you call an adult conversation is laughable. This entire thread is a joke. The premise was to evoke a conversation leading to testimonials and shilling Teds over priced gear.
There has been no conversation here and it is the same old boring BS.
I will make a contribution for you, buy some decent cables, some magic elixir for your connectors and you will be in audio heaven.
My first little "system" was an 8 track player that apparently had an amplifier and a couple of speakers. What did I know, I was a teenage kid. All I knew was that I could listen to the music I liked in my bedroom and not have to listen to the country music my parents listened to, or all the commercials on the radio. It pleased me.
Over time, my systems have continued to improve in sound quality. Why do I need to "conclusively prove" that my system sounds good to me? Could it be better? Yes, of course. Is it good enough? For now. Am I spending time obsessing over what little thing I could do to eke out that extra bit of sound or spending time listening to music? I prefer the latter.
Listening to my system is one of the things I look forward to most, so it clearly pleases me.
Oh I see. Appears the point of this thread and loaded question apparently was to assert what we like is completely subjective which means anything goes just because. Got it! Mr Denney and his Synergistic company got that covered in spades! Where can I buy the stock?
You said: "It's like asking the question, "Am I in pain?" That's not a question I can make sense of without some kind of science fiction scenario." Can you elaborate on that paragraph? I don't understand what you are trying to say. I know I'm in pain from the time my feet hit the floor in the morning, but that's from playing competitive basketball for 40 years.
When what you hear makes you realize just how brilliant the music and musicianship are -- that the skill and artistry of composers and musical performers sufficiently justifies humanity, despite so much of all the rest.
Of course, the music and musicianship need to be pretty great for that to happen.
When I am enjoying the music and not the system. A lot of people will refer to this as “when the speakers disappear and all you hear is the music ”. You sound like you are entering the cheating stage of audiofile. You are in love with music but a new sexy “system” is giving you a look and you start to wander and think that an affaire with “system” will be fun and “music” will never find out. Don’t overthink and and step over to the dark side. Enjoy the music and appreciate what you have.
@ted_denney You should pose the same original question on ASR and Whatsbest and writeup a comparison of the responses. That would be entertaining! Cheers,
Spencer
Sadly we’ve got some angry birds here as well. Very strange in a hobby that’s all about enjoying your stereo, which is wholly subjective, there are people who have a significant problem with this, to the point of religious fervor. Fanaticism.
@ted_denneyYou should pose the same original question on ASR and Whatsbest and writeup a comparison of the responses. That would be entertaining! Cheers,
When I opened my shop in 1973 I asked the same questions. SO, luckily, I had a shop full of gear from high-end manufacturers (and some middle-range and some used high-end stuff).
SO, I brought in my trumpet and my guitars. FIRST, I hooked up a basic system and swapped out speakers one pair at a time. Took me almost a month. I never had to pick up an instrument during this phase. It was pretty obvious that my favs from college--stacked Advents--were, to be kind, not that good. Nothing against Mr. Kloss--he was clearly a genius and his speakers were terrific for the time. BUT, next to other stuff they showed their weaknesses easily, as did many others that we carried.
Rather than bore you with the whole journey, what I learned was that different designers had different price points, thus compromised as you would expect. This ain't a charity--this stuff was made to be SOLD for MONEY. No money, no stuff.
Following an extended listening process, I was lucky enough to sell Audio Research and Magnepan products. We also had Marantz and McIntosh for a while--long story.
In the end, there was no doubt--the Audio Research stuff on the Maggies were a revelation in reproduced sound IF the source material was solid.
Now, this combo did NOT sound as good in some customer's rooms for whatever reason, but we had lots of good stuff for them as well. Given the better rooms, that combo was clearly the most accurate and remains so today.
First when everything sounds better than before. Totally absorbing and one doesn't want it to be interrupted by anything. Musicians are in the room.
Second thoughts....doubt creeps in, is it really doing what I paid all that money for. What about all those reviews. Wish I could hear the reviewers system to know if its all BS. Is it my ears?
Comparisons with friends systems help, but in the end I think it could be only experienced reviewers who are able to listen to many systems in their own room that could reach a state of objectivity here.
You know when a stereo sounds good when the instruments start sounding like instruments. When a guitar sounds like strings vibrating and wood resonating, and so on and so forth. When you walk by a closed door of a room where the system is playing and you're not sure right away whether it's someone inside playing live or a recording.
Any system i ever listened to was sounding good to at least ONE person or listener, the owner with or without my favorable opinion...
This is common place observation...
But reading the answers it seems nobody had realized that almost all answers ONLY repeated an instance of this common place fact... Then these answers could never said anything valuable about an objective criterion which anyway CANNOT and could not be "gear with good measurements"...Or the pricier gear....All gear at any price or quality levels, NEED acoustic control and treatment at the end anyway....
The OBJECTIVE way to produce an answer is then by listening experiments in your own room with ACOUSTIC principles... Play with them.... COST=zero
Upgrading, even if the "upgrade " affected really positively some aspects of the sound experience, upgrading COULD NEVER rival or compensate for the impact of a negative or positive acoustic room settings...
It is like asking "How do you know if/when you are enlightened?" For a Buddhist follower, it is a difficult question to answer other than saying, "You know when you know."
Jokes a side, let me try to answer from my point of view. I know my setup is performing at its very best when it reproduces human voice male/female just like they are in my listening room. For my tastes, stereo sounds great when Ella, Lady Day, Louis Armstrong, Jim Reeves, Lata Mangeshkar, Nana Mouskouri, Luciano Pavarotti, Dame Kiri te Kanawa, and many other artists sounds alive in my room. Of course, there are other measures as well. But recognizing and relating to the voice of your favorite artist should be something most everyone can do.
This should not require any special training or skill such as hitting the race track and getting used to driving a Porsche! Some actually require such training as they do driving a Porsche. They are bit handicapped with driving disabilities. But most folks should be able to recognize and enjoy the voices of their favorite artist from their stereo set up. Hope this helps.
When my mind stops wandering as it usually does, and I am captivated by the performance, music, or noticing something wonderful about a composition that I thought I knew well. Presently, I am disappointed with the system that I have, and need to rethink my approach. So yes, I know when I am NOT happy too.
I get what you’re asking. But it’s close to impossible to answer. If it sounds good to your ears then it’s good. You can listen to other systems in other rooms and it will surely sound different. But is it better? Possibly but the only way to tell is to listen to it in your room. Not always feasible. For me, I’m over the top with my system and that’s all that matters.
When presented with a proposition that is demonstrably false, I’m probably obtuse as well.
As @roxy54 noted, this self-awareness factoid - despite being a falsity in itself and a convenient deflection by the OP - does not address the primary and fundamental error and is completely irrelevant and/or has no meaning in the context..
It seems that I am in the minority of people who recognise speech that is intended to persuade but has little regard for truth.
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