@toddalinI listened to the audio recording of your system playing Landslide and it sounds very, very good. The sound is very clear and you get the warmth & the extra harmonics from the “tube simulator” which adds body. You have a really nice sounding system.
Compare the sound of your system to the sound on the recording of this guy’s system, who has the top of the line Gryphon speakers & electronics, and the new $350K dCS Varese digital playback stack in a dedicated custom built “acoustically engineered” room:
OMG! Your system sounds better than any $million systems in the world. I love it! Your sound slight forward for my taste but it’s matter of taste. And you can push back the sound-stage if you want later. You’re almost complete control of your system sound at this stage. Congrat! Big time! Alex/WTA
Amazing! While people switch DACs few times and pay $$$$$ ($260k for a DAC?), 15 years old Oppo-95 sounds this. Again the separate DACs can’t avoid veils and glare (4 extra connectors on d cable destroy delicate d signals). Cheers! Alex/WTA
@toddalinI agree with Alex that you need to experiment with taming some of the forwardness of the midrange because at least to me the forward presentation would lead to quick listening fatigue.
@mihorn I have a Modwright Dalby Oppo-105D that I use in one of my other systems as a DAC for streaming. The Oppo players are and still sound very nice.
The other thing that I will mention is that to achieve greater inner detail, low level detail, nuance, and resolution you really need to work on the source material itself. You will not increase the inherent resolution downstream of the source. I know that @toddalindoes not connect his system to a PC or streamer but he would really enjoy what HQPLAYER would do to the sound of his system.
As I noted, the contour control adjusts the "forwardness" of the midrange. This is not a simple midrange volume control. As set (20 ohm "default"), I like the vocal detail it affords and when I listen to direct cuts, it sounds similar to me. I listen to disk after disk with no fatigue. Often I strive for a more vocal from my seat!
You need to realize that sitting on the couch puts my head back to the cushions and when recording, the mic stands forward of that. Even a couple inches can have a profound effect when you are dealing with this sort of thing and it is not quite so forward as it sounds in the track. I can also engage the "Tube Simulator" to take a bit of vocal "edge" out on bad recordings.
Mihorn, I assume that you’ve seen the Oppo-95 with WaveTouch built in that has been on the local C/L? Not there now, but been there for a while off and on with a substantial price drop and probably will be back.
Nothing wrong with generally comparing similar components or brands as you build your rig. However when you reach your happy end, then do what Rick James said, "ENJOY YOURSELF!"
My system is very argumentative. We fight all the time. How does someone even come up with these questions(Do you try to rank your system with others’?)?
I don’t have to be competitive. No one that has heard my system has ever heard any better. Yes I know that will get me dogs abuse but it really is true. The key is the ability to set the Audiopax timbre lock 💯 correctly. Try it. You can’t!
Who ranks their system? This question is easy to answer. Ex. I spent 100k on my system and use 5k speaker cable wires. Its obvious this system is the best. I never once thought of it as I spent enough on my system and I'm content on it. Now I can understand people love the hobby and want to try new gear, but if your happy, thats all that matters. The question is subjective based on price like all luxury items.
@isellgoodgearpost a link to an audio recording of your system. Would love to hear what you are working with. I know that it is not the same as being in the room but it will at least give us a glimpse and a flavor of the quality of your playback system. With such confidence it must sound very special. Please share your pride with the rest of us through an audio recording of your system for us to hear.
A link to a phone video tells you nothing of its quality. When you come to UK you are very welcome And yes it’s VERY VERY special. A listener yesterday used the word ‘perfect’. I hesitate to agree but it is pretty damn close
@isellgoodgearthat is always the easy way out. Have some confidence and put an audio recording out, we know that it is not 100% representative but at least if provides some information. I hope that you do realize that this hobby is based on the concept & belief that audio recordings do convey the sound recorded to a high degree of accuracy. Commercial sound recordings were done with lesser technology than what you have on your phone nowadays so don’t be surprised to find out the level of accuracy that even a cell phone audio recording will convey. All you have to do is capture the audio at the listening position and make an audio recording, embedded in the video. Have a little confidence. This hobby is about sound and not words. Anyone can type and post whatever they want on these threads. Have some conviction and post and audio recording recording of your system like I and others have done. You sound very confident with your words, now is time to back them up with some audio recordings of your system, if you dare to be confident with what you say you have there. Let’s hear it shall we?
@iselan I completely agree. I hope that @isellgoodgear does not turn out to be like the guys on WBF that sit around all day and write & tell you about how great their latest and greatest cost is no object system sounds, but lack the confidence to make a simple audio recording from the listening position to share with others.
To lead by example, here are a few audio recordings of my OKTAN6 system from last weekend’s listening session for everyone to listen to, compare, and judge as they wish:
isellgoodgearA phone video tells you nothing of its quality.
YT video is a very good tool to tune any audio system close to the original sound. I’ve been exhibiting my system in audio shows >10 years. I heard all other exhibiting systems in all other rooms (>60) every years. All audio show videos sound signatures are exactly same as what I heard at the show. Our brain can compute the situation difference.
My memory can’t remember the small sound difference after each tune of my system. So, I record my system and listen it in my PC. I can hear every small changes from my system. I keep tune my system to sound closer to the original music.
I know how a good hi-fi system suppose to sound from my experience (>10 years at audio shows). It’s the musicality and SQ (smooth and non-fatiguing) of audio system to make listeners happy to hear it many hours.
Also, systemshould sound faithful to the original music which is the best sound. No system can sound better than the original music. If the original music sounds bad to your ears, your ears are too harden from listening harsh audio sounds too long.
The clean sound audio without the veil lets you enjoy the music. The veil between you ears and speakers hurts you the most. When you listen the music, what hits your ears hard is the veil. Not the delicate music behind it. The important delicate music you want to hear is far away behind speakers. Remove the veil to enjoy music.
The showroom sounds splendid and stimulus at 1st, but your ears get tired and bored soon in quiet night home session. The good sound might be bit soft 1st, but your ears and spouse will appreciate at your home. Alex/Wavetouch audio
@isellgoodgearLet me be the judge of what I get out of your iPhone recording. See that is the whole point of sharing the audio recordings of one’s systems from the listening position, to overcome geographical differences. I personally would not want strangers lining up at my front door and making their way to my listening rooms and sitting in my listening chairs, but I do want them to get a glimpse of what I have been able to achieve if they are interested in hearing it. An audio recording of one’s system from the listening position overcomes the distance in our locations. It sounds like you are going to continue to hide behind your keyboard, like the majority of guys on WBF. Isn’t it ironic that in a hobby based on sound, you and others have chosen to convey how great your system sounds over written text words rather than through audio recordings? It is a real head scratcher to me that guys like you that go on forums and tell everyone how great & wonderful your system sounds but then lack the confidence to back it up and post a simple audio recording of their system from the listening position. What kind of logic is that? Such a great sounding system should at the very least sound stellar on an audio recording one would think. I know that it is not going to sound 100% like the sound in the room but it should sound close, at least the audio recordings of my systems do.
Are you suggesting you capture audio then dub the video with it? I thought I’d ask, because I tried video-ing my system and the playback sounded like absolute trash, even played through the very same system. I just used the stock photo app on my Pixel. Apologies if this is an inane question.
@devinplombierI just talking about shooting a video from the listening position but the minute you say “video” everyone gets dismissive really quick so I refer to them as “audio recordings embedded in the video”, because that is exactly what they are.
@devinplombierWhy do think or speculate that the system audio recordings of my systems and of others don’t sound like trash? What makes our simple videos/audio recordings different than yours or anyone else’s? I assume that you have a current cell phone, but you can also use an external microphone with it if you want to. the BelieveInHifi guy uses expensive high-end professional studio microphones and equipment to make his system videos and to be honest to me the better equipment doesn’t tell me much more than the iPhone videos he posts first for comparison. We will never be able to make all variables equals so recording devices do not need to be, and usually never are, the same. The only thing that is crucial is that the audio recording/video be captured/shot from the listening position, or otherwise all comparisons and assessments are off.
Why do think or speculate that the system audio recordings of my systems and of others don’t sound like trash?
They don’t sound like trash to you because many people actually prefer the sound of compressed lossy files, which is what you get from YouTube, Spotify, and mp3s. And you are watching a video of the system as you listen, so confirmation bias creeps in. It's pretty simple.
If you make a recording, it should be true to the original direct transfer, regardless of what you are listening on. This is your point of reference and you are not comparing it to ANYTHING else. This is also what your recording should sound like.
So, it doesn’t really matter what you listen back on, as long as it is of good quality and "full range" so as to be able to capture the nuance of the original direct transfer. In fact, you really want to be using nearfield monitors.
If you make a recording, it should be true to the original direct transfer, regardless of what you are listening on.
Of course. But if you use lossy media (YouTube, Spotify, mp3 files), the recording will not be "original" at all. Rather, it will have discarded data for the purpose of reducing file size. Fidelity is also lost in the process - even though many will find the result pleasing.
Making a truly high-fidelity recording is not as easy as some here believe.
Several years back I attended an audio demo wherein the system did sound excellent. The dealer asked the attendants how the system compared to real ’live’ music. Some folks came out and stated this system sounded better than live to their ears!
I thought this reply was not correct and showed that those who made the point were perhaps not listening enough to live music, even though it was probably in the top 5% of systems I had heard. Now, if we took a canned version of this system and listened to it via video online, i believe that a few things would be evident. 1) the system would sound only a fraction as good as when heard live and 2) the ability to really determine its quality would be severely diminished. Therefore, personally i give very little credence to the SQ on videos on the web as to how any particular product or system sounds.
@cleedshave you listen to the audio recordings of my OKTAN6 system that I shared with the group? How lossy do those sound, and if you extrapolate the level of compression & lossyness that you think is happening because of the YouTube encoding process the where does that land them or put them in terms of sound quality?
But the direct transfer undergoes the same transformation, so the two should be equivalent.
No one is talking the ultimate in fidelity. I keep noting that there are qualities that cannot be conveyed (e.g., soundstage, imaging), but the general character and smoothness of the frequency balance, openness of the sound, etc. can be. We/I are/am only listening to hear if they sound the same and where the differences lie.
If the direct cut is rich in bass and the system is not, accounting for some floor bounce, we got a problem.
If the system shows a peak or resonance that is not in the direct transfer..., we got a problem.
If the system sounds muffled or devoid of harmonics (heavily veiled), and the direct transfer doesn’t..., we got a problem.
The list goes on.
As I said, nearfield monitoring is best for this exercise.
Mihorn, ever seen one of these? It’s a Wavetouch modified Oppo-95. This one is available locally.
@cleeds For your reference, I have two high-end studio grade mastering systems here at home so I’m quite intimately familiar with what goes on during the mastering process and the loss in audio quality suffer through the YouTube process is not that detrimental when you start with a highly resolving system and make a good quality recording of its sound at the listener’s sitting position.
Let’s put your theory to the test and tell us how the audio recording embedded in the video is different than what you hear in the room. Use it to illustrate, highlight, and point out the differences in sound quality that you proclaim.
... the loss in audio quality suffer through the YouTube process is not that detrimental ...
That’s a subjective assessment and of course you’re entitled to it. In fact, the design of lossy audio software - such as used by YouTube, Sirius/XM, and mp3 files - is specifically designed to minimize the apparent loss of audio quality and it is very, very effective. It that sense it’s rather amazing that those sources don’t sound worse! It’s fine that you rely on those sources for evaluation, but it’s silly to suggest that the loss of fidelity is insignificant.
Let’s put your theory to the test ...
It's not a theory. YouTube uses lossy audio and for some listeners it is r-e-a-l-l-y obvious.
Makes one wonder how many people refuse to post because they’ve spent mega bucks and are afraid that others will feel that they just don’t "measure up" or recognize that when held up to the direct transfer, they actually don’t???
‘Studio grade’ eh Carlos? Well I’ve produced and mixed multi million selling LPs and having worked at amongst others Abbey Road their playback system couldn’t hold a candle to mine. I once had to install decent loudspeaker cable in the evaluation system of an A&R man at EMI. He couldn’t believe the improvement.
I understand! Many people agree with you and I have no issue with that at all. As I've mentioned, there are some listeners who actually prefer lossy audio and I have no issue with that either.
What's puzzling is that some who are enjoying lossy audio simply can't accommodate that others find it lacking. Preference being what it is there's really no need for anyone to justify his preference - it's purely subjective and there is no right or wrong, even when the preference is for something of provably inferior quality.
When I go to dealers looking to buy new gear, I bought the previous gear for purposes of impressing future dealers I talk to.
I don’t buy it to impress people coming into my home, because rarely do you bring people into your home who understand audio systems like you do or have appreciation for good quality and if it does happen I don’t wanna dwell on talking about the system.
Aside from impressing dealers I speak to about what I own, I do it for purposes of feeling comfortable with what I’m listening to knowing that i’ll probably buy something nicer and spend more money in hopes that it’ll be a better product. Not interested in reselling because that’s a pain in the ass so I just keep it and create another listening room.
Also I’m highly critical of what I do, and if I’m listening to something that could be better it needs to change otherwise it’ll continue to annoy the hell out of me. Presently I’m comfortable with everything I have with the exception of speakers which are really quite good but I think I might be able to do better. And if this did happen I’ll probably get rid of the current speakers simply because I’m running out of space and they are a pain in the ass to move if I ever relocate and I’m running out of space to keep all the boxes.
I don’t view audio stuff as competitive because that’s sports. I don’t like to buy a really nice car for purposes of being showy when I drive down the street. I’d like to own a Porsche or a Ferrari but I’d be annoyed with all the views I get when I drove down the street and I have to talk about it every time I get out of my car and someone walks over to complement me. So I’ll buy an Audi or something else that’s not as flashy.
@cleeds You have taken. Y comments to the extreme. everyone knows that YouTube is a lossy media, but the sound conveys enough information to discern the quality of playback systems.
@toddalinYou are spot on on your description of how audio recordings embedded in videos can be used to assess the sound quality of audio systems recorded from the listening position. You get it when most don’t. You understand exactly how to use the audio recordings as a tool.
By the way the $350K is just for the dCS Varese digital playback stack, that guy has sunk well over a million $USD into his room and stereo equipment.
As if my system isn't competing with me enough, my practically brand new computer just decided to pitch in. I have spent the better part of this afternoon getting it to function without throwing up bogus popups telling me I took it to a malicious website. I have been threatening it (my PC) and maybe that's why it is working popup free for the moment.
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Mihorn, ever seen one of these? It’s a Wavetouch modified Oppo-95. This one is available locally.