Honest question about cartridge vs. turntable performance.

Atma-Sphere, I have this nagging itch that tells me it is the "less money"
part that is most significant here.

@mijostyn  That might be due to Veblen Effect- the same reason that people preferred Campagnolo derailleurs back in the 1970s even though SunTour derailleurs were better in every way. Its that nagging itch that tells you that because its more expensive, it has to have more value. It doesn't always work that way- if the product is built to a pricing formula rather than what the market will bear, it is often less expensive.


The Technics machines are less expensive out of volume. You might want to give them another listen; the new 'tables are entirely different designs even though they've retained the same look. I've installed Triplanar arms on a number of them- that combination is very hard to beat!

Plus Mijostyn has never revealed exactly which DD turntables he listened to back in the "1970s or 1980s", with what tonearms and cartridges and on what speakers.  (Not that it would matter all that much, unless he listened to some decidedly inferior brand or model, because otherwise he is entitled to his opinion.)  Plus, dear Mijo, you are guilty of a common audiophile sin: You have an observation on one hand ("I did not like that turntable sound), and a not necessarily related fact on the other (the turntable has a motor situated directly under the platter), and you are positing a cause and effect for which we (neither you nor I) have no other evidence.  Even the 1970s (50 years ago) were not "dark ages".  Electricity was well understood in the 1970s.  Engineers knew about EMI and RFI and their possible negative effects on the operation of a phono cartridge placed nearby.  Shielding was also an understood art.  All of the high quality vintage DD turntables I have encountered evidence an effort to prevent the motor from interfering with the low level signal from a cartridge.  I've measured EMI near the surface of the platter for two of my own DD turntables (SP10 Mk3 and Kenwood L07D), while the turntable was in operation, of course, and the signal is not above background.  This is proof of nothing, but it is evidence of something.

I agree that Technics turntables are a fine product.  I sold many of them during that part of my CE industry life.  They sounded very good, worked flawlessly, and never came back with a mechanical issue.  Very happy customers.  The direct drive of my choice, one that I have enjoyed in my system for many years, is a Micro Seiki DDX-1000 with a Micro Seiki MA-505 tonearm.  Always sounded wonderful and has been a flawless performer for many years.

The problem I have with some comments here, however, is that by making a recent purchase for a Rega Planar 10, I somehow have made a very poor decision.  As well, that the product is equally as poor.  Quite frankly, that's just not fair.  We are all allowed to have opinions and make choices.  It's just wrong to tell people that their opinions, decisions, and product selections are "crap" (exact quote from a previous comment).  Offer up all the opinions and information that you wish.  But please, refrain from telling people that their choices and their products are "crap".

@mammothguy54

When you address your message to someone directly, please mention it. In my opinion Rega is a crappy and overpriced belt drive turntable like almost all modern BD turntable in this price range, nothing can change my opinion about it.

...making a recent purchase for a Rega Planar 10, I somehow have made a very poor decision.

Don’t you think the same? Let’s face it.
And let me mark the best Technics models since you have mentioned your positive experience with some old Technics turntables. The SP-10 mkII cost only $1500 today in perfect condition. The SP-10 mkIII is still a reference Direct Drive and cost about $5-7k.

I have explained in details in my earlier posts why (in my opinion) Direct Drive is better than Belt Drive.

Comparing any Rega to Technics SP-10mkII or mkIII is a joke, really.
Same about any Rega tonearms versus vintage Technics EPA-100 tonearm.

A brand new Technics SL1200G (about$4k) and GR (about $1700) are better than any Rega turntable today. 

Well Chakster, I didn't mention your name because I am not one to bash others.  But since you are requesting it then, yes, I was referencing you.

I can see that your opinion and, more importantly, your manners, are what they are.

Stay safe and be healthy during these very trying times of COVID.

mammothguy54,

Agree. It's a shame when some of these people have to be so full of themselves that THEY think they are the first and last word in choosing equipment. With them, it's the same old boring argument.

Wow, this is certainly spinning around. Lewm, in order to support myself in medical school I was a Hi Fi salesman at a store called Luskin's Hi FI in Miami, FL. It was a discount box store and volume was the key. On the side I installed systems in the houses of very rich people getting equipment from several places but mostly Sound Components the high end store in Miami. We blew up quads in HQD systems for fun. Not kidding. I can not remember the names  of all the DD turntables I set up and evaluated. Can you remember the names of all the girls you ...dated? If you can you led a very boring life. At Sound Components many if not most evaluations were done as a group. No one thought the current  DD turntables sound even close to being good. They were pretty and reliable enough so that you could sell one to John Smith with a straight face. Very few of the customers at Luskin's knew what they were listening to. The rich people certainly did not. The Owner of Flagler Dog Track though I did such a good job he had me redesign the entire PA system at the Track.
I made serious money on that one.  I set him up with Beveridges, Levinson preamp and amps, a Tandberg cassette machine and Reel to Reel, and a McIntosh Tuner. CD had not been invented yet and he was not interested in Vinyl. 
One thing we did notice a Sound Components was that DD turntables did considerably worse with MC cartridges. I can theorize why but I have proof of nothing. Is it possible to do a DD table that sounds as good as a belt drive. I guess. But, I have not personally heard one I would consider buying. There are other factors at play than just drive type. I have also not been exposed to near as much equipment during the last 40 years as I was back then. But no matter how you parse it putting an oscillating
magnetic device under a modern low output moving coil cartridge is a silly concept and I am not the only one who has that opinion although I may be the most vocal.  I have no overwhelming proof to back up my opinion. But, It is my opinion and you are entitled to yours. 
My next turntable is going to be Dohmann Helix 1 with two Schroder LT's
on it:)

Atma-Sphere, I will never ride a bike with anything but  Campy on it. That Jap stuff is cheap overweight crap. It only worked better if you did not know how to shift. 
My current bike is a Specialized S works Diverge with Campy Super Record 12 speed EPS disc brake group. Fulcrum Carbon tubeless rims with Hutchinson Sector 32 tires. Perfect bike for an old fart with bad wrists:)

Having owned a Technics Direct Drive SP10 mk2 and now a Linn, I think both tables can deliver good to great sound. The Technics was a table that I thought could sound a bit like digital at times, IOW a little sterile and dry sounding. The Linn, if not set up 100% can also sound a little off, leading to the opinions that many naysayers have about it. The plus with the Technics was that one could mount almost any arm, the minus with the Linn is that the arm options are very limited. However, once set up correctly and with their Radikal power supply, the Linn is very hard to beat. Nonetheless, I think most drive types have their pluses and minuses...

@mijostyn 


I remember the DD tables back in the 70’s and 80’s and when I got my Linn lp12  in 1985 I thought it was so much better. I think the problem was I only saw the low end Japanese DD. Also when I got my Linn it was the first time I purchased a decent cartridge. DD turntables for me back then meant low end. In the 80’s,  Made in Japan had a bad reputation  in audio. They never sent us much of their good stuff to North America. I’ve learn now that I had never heard their  top tables back then that are cheap to obtain now. Like SP 10, Denon DP80, @chakster has a Luxman pd444 and others of consideration. If you would have asked me, I would have recommended similar to chakster. But since you already own the Rega, it’s probably still a decent table that I’m sure you’ll enjoy. Along with my Garrard 301 and  2 DD I also own a Kuzma reference belt drive. But for the dollar a DD (especially vintage) can’t be beat in my opinion.

cakyol
Wow, thanks for verify that that I always suspected. And is my view of it too.
 
That if we ONLY look att the whole TT (=100%) and disregard all other following components downstream.

It is hard to put numbers on things but for illustration and easier understanding.

That cartridge make up for ≈70-80% of the sound quality and ≈20-30% of the sound quality that is left is shared between platter (drive type, plinth, bearing and so on) and tone arm (length, cable, bearing type and so on).

Then we can discuss this and that and adjust 10% up or down. But it is important to make this rather simple to understand.

When all this discussion back and forth and details on drive system or tone arms will just confuse many when we do not know and understand that those types of "rabbit holes discussions" is only, lively discussions on a few % of the sound quality.

Good to have that perspective back of your head when reading this type of threads.

@cakyol 
I total disagree. I could be content with a lessor cartridge, but never an inferior table. Especially if a decent arm was used. If you can’t hear the difference than your Lp12 isn’t set up properly. As most Linns probably aren’t with their wobbly suspension.

Hang on sdrsdrsdr, Accuphase was very much alive back then and they made some awesome equipment. If I know the Japanese we were also not getting their best stuff. They hoard it for themselves. Woodworking sharpening stones are a great example. We get the garbage here. In order to get good ones you have to do business with a store there. 
Most peoples experience when it comes to Hi Fi is anecdotal. They here some things in their own system and think it's gospel. An anecdote does not a study make. There are too many variables to be able to say much about anything except one individual prefers this over that. Multiple observers have to note the same characteristic over broad circumstances, multiple units etc. 
Your Linn sounds better because it has a very small low torque motor far away from the cartridge and it is isolated from the environment by a suspension consequently far less noise gets to the stylus than any currently made DD turntable. It would be interesting to put a Monaco turntable on a MinusK stand to see what you get. But, the Japs never took isolation seriously. (that should raise some eyebrows) The Linn's problems are that it's suspension is not designed well and is poorly damped, the universal arm board is poor, as you mention tonearms are limited and lastly it has developed the silliest cult following. But, it certainly does sound better than any direct drive and we compared it to at least 10 if not more. There were weeks when we sold at least 10 LInns and we had 3 or 4 DD tables set up to compare it to.  The DD turntables were selling the Linns for us. You just had to make sure the customer had a really stable location for the Linn or you could have an angry customer.
Vintage DD turntables are definitely not the way to go. There may be some new ones that are fine I do not know. There certainly is no Technics turntable that I personally would bother with. For the most part they just dusted off the old designs when vinyl came back and made up a bunch of new marketing to make people think they were buying a cheap turntable that was better than any of those high price belt drive things. 

Vintage DD turntables are definitely not the way to go. There may be some new ones that are fine I do not know. There certainly is no Technics turntable that I personally would bother with. For the most part they just dusted off the old designs when vinyl came back and made up a bunch of new marketing to make people think they were buying a cheap turntable that was better than any of those high price belt drive things.

@mijostin you know nothing about reference Direct Drive turntables so how can you tell someone anything about them? Would you like to recall top of the line DD turntable you ever owner in your life? Then we can talk about it.

Technics new design is NEW, not old.

It’ new Coreless Direct Drive motor. This company knows very well what they are doing, it’s not a funny little hi-fi manufacturer in his garage like most of those small Belt Drive companies with huge margin in the price for their toys.

And finally who cares about your own choice? We know you like Belt Drives. But everything you’re posting about DD turntables is wrong. You’d better study a bit about proper Direct Drive design - this is the missing link. Technics products are not overpriced just because they are able to make millions of them and sell them all quickly. The best selling turntable in the world is an old SL1200mkII series, probably you don’t know about it. Today they can make reference SP-10R and keep the price low, so some audiophile for whom the price is the key don’t really understand what they are missing, they can pay 5 times more and not even get close to SP-10R.

I know there must be some good belt drive turntables, but there are much more problems with belt drive than with direct drive motor.

I agree with chakster regarding the newer Technics.  The older Luxmans I am sure are fantastic.  My friend has an older Luxman but he cannot get it repaired anywhere locally so that is why i would not take my chances on one.  If I had skilled technicians locally that could fix it without sending it out for repair I would definitely consider one of them.

Chakster, I definitely do not have to own one. I suspect I have had very close contact to more of them than you unless you have similar experience. It is not my fault you drink the Kool Aid. 
Do yourself a favor. Contact Hideaki Nishikawa here,   https://techdas.jp/pages/contact-techdas/ and ask him why he did not use a direct drive system. You can come back and give us his answer!

I would say given the choice I would put a superior cartridge on an inferior turntable.  

Mijo, While you were going to medical school in or around Miami, I was going to medical school in NYC.  Lyric Hi-Fi and Mike Kaye were in their heyday at that time, and I hung around that store and a few others, like Harmony House on 72nd St all too often.  (Being a medical student in an MD/PhD program per se was taking up all my other time, so I did not work in a store.) Mike was a very nice guy, would talk about audio even to a poor medical student.  I bought my first pair of audiophile speakers from him, IMF Studios.  I wanted the Monitors but could not afford them or fit them in our tiny apartment. Later on, Mike took a back seat and the store became snotty, you needed an appointment to get in to one of their listening rooms.Still, in your interesting narrative of your early years, you did not actually name any of the actual DD turntables you were hearing back in the 70s. I might note that those relatively early DD turntables in general did not reference the speed to a quartz oscillator; that came along in the early 80s.  I would not mess with any DD lacking a quartz referenced servo, and it's no wonder you were not impressed with those early efforts at DD.  The difference between the original Technics SP10 and the SP10 Mk2 is the incorporation of a quartz reference for better speed control in the latter case.  However, the SP10 Mk2 is one of a few DDs I have owned and heard that really do have a coloration, in my opinion.  I owned two Mk2s; they added a faint "gray"-ish coloration that was only evident when you compared it to something else that lacked that same coloration.  Many others who do not like DD ascribe this coloration to "hunting" due to the servo mechanism constantly correcting speed.  My investigations tell me it is more likely due to EMI, as you mention.  A little shielding added can fix that.  The SP10 MK3 or the new SP10R are rock solid neutral and constant in speed in a way that no other turntable does it. The huge platter of the Mk3 provides inches of shielding from its motor. Another fix in relation to speed hunting is to stabilize the stators on the motor, as done by Richard Krebs.  The torque of the motor while rotating the platter applies an equal and opposite force to the structural elements that restrain stator motion.  If the structure is weak, the stator will move counter to the rotation of the platter by a tiny amount (Newton's Third Law), but this is enough to signal the servo that there is a speed error, so the servo tries to compensate by accelerating the platter, and there you go.  These are issues with modern DD (and also with belt-drive motors where the consequences of counter-force are different), but for me the issues with belt-drive are audibly worse, so I've made my choice.  You consistently mention the Grand Prix Monaco.  There are many things I like about that turntable but it is off my list due to its light weight and carbon fiber construction, perhaps unfairly on my part.  Even I would tell you, you are better off with a Dohmann Helix belt drive. I favor mass over a suspension, unless you are talking about Minus K or Herzan (which I think makes Minus K under another brand).  Mass is needed to counter the force of the motor, again the motor wants to turn the plinth or the platter, and it doesn't care which. If you want a heavy platter (and I do), you need a very massive plinth, which also, if properly designed to incorporate constrained layer damping, soak up resonance.  My SP10 Mk3 sits in a 90-lb plinth I made or had made out of slate and cherry wood.  The Kenwood L07D was conceived with a 60-lb plinth made of a hard particulate of some kind plus a hard wood, for CLD.

As to the Rega, I disagree with Chakster's dismissing them out of hand.  I think the higher end Rega turntables are very interesting experiments in extreme rigidity with low mass, and I'd like to hear one some time. Maybe they are bang for buck contenders in belt drive world.

Guys (or gals) the original question posed was not belt versus direct. One technology is not better than the other. It depends on the table. Some manufacturers make both types. OP is talking about going from a good basic turntable to something better or upgrading a cartridge. 

From my experience, the arm is most important (but I don't have experience as Mike Lavigne from bottom to very top of the market). It must be matched to the table. However, you want to look at resale value down the road. As someone who faced this type of decision, it is hard to sell a tonearm standalone and people like to buy known quantities. Years ago I had an MMF 5.1 and wanted an improvement. I was about to buy an arm, but was able to get a new table with the same arm for almost the same price (Rega, known fro their arm's high value). If I sold the MMF with a better arm, it would not have added the same resale value as the new table. All you Rega haters just please relax (especially Chakster). When I upgraded the Rega it was easy to sell in pieces because I upgraded the arm first (huge improvement) and then matched it to a table that cost about 80% more than the arm upgrade (minor improvement). I think up to $5K or so, get a table with an arm to match. So a table upgrade (with arm included) will yield better results than a cartridge.Then you can look at more complicated decisions.

Cartridge, as Mike Lavigne said is disposable. I wouldn't spend more than $1K, but that is me. Second most important is phono stage, which is not spoken about much, as one of the 4 main components. Not talking about Linn that breaks it down into a million pieces.

So, I guess cartridge is 4th, assuming your table is at the right speed with minimal rumble (sometimes a bd assumption). Also, you need to look at your budget. The question is how do I get the best improvement in SQ for my buck from a given investment. That is critical, otherwise you can go down a rabbit hole of upgraditis since there is ALWAYS something better of everything. Figure out your budget and go from there. Significant improvements cost significant dollars and the more you spend the more you have to spend to get noticeable improvement.

For a grand or two, I'd get a new table/arm. Then a new phono stage. Then cartridge to match the phono stage, assuming you are happy with your speakers and cables (oh no....you're going down the hole....)

What matters is the table/arm/cartridge interface. If they don't "have chemistry", it doesn't matter how much you spend on one over the other.

I remember buying a Grado at the upper end of their offerings and installing it in my Sumiko MMT arm on my VPI HW table. There was nothing that I could do to keep it from literally bouncing across the record.

I brought it back to the store owner, who then chewed out the salesperson for not knowing about the "Grado Bounce", something that happens when you put one in an MMT arm and every salesperson is supposed to know about.

Dear OP,

As I believe your question was about acquiring a nice/substantial upgrade in your vinyl set-up. If I may presume you are reasonably happy with your MMF 5.1. My best guess is that you will absolutely make a very fine upgrade with a new (and hopefully better) cartridge. Changing your turntable while holding on to the Ortofon Black would just be a sidestep. I do not think you will gain much.
I am not familiar with your particular player. But I was triggered by some denigrating remarks considering your Music Hall and the whole breed of belt driven turntables. I really think this is complete and utter foolishness. To put it mildly. And a sure sign serious audiophiles can be anally retentive snobs. 
So, back to the original question, when happy with the player, what cart? There are quite a few possibilities, but there are some restrictions as well. I have no idea if your preamp can accommodate LOMC's. You have got to take the Project 9 arm in account (11gr, medium to lightish, total mass). And your budget. Wold you like to try a MM/MI cart? Or would a HOMC do? Is shopping in the 'vintage corner' not too daunting? Mind you, people who appreciate such fine differences will verbally go to war for their weapon of choice. I am familiar with old LOMC's as the Denon 301 or Supex 900. And I have given the HOMC's ( Denon 160, Dyna 10x4/2 a fair share of black circles. But all in different tonearms. And they were vintage, but I sure wouldn't mind mounting the in a Pro-Ject 9 arm.  So, I am sure there are quite a few very knowledgeable folk around for some more modern choices. I am looking forward to your solutions!

Kind regards, StefV

It isn't an either or situation.

Mind exercise:

A cartridge can put out X - X= 100%  That's if it were held perfectly in the air with no external vibrations affecting it.

Attach it to an arm on a turntable with interconnects to a phono preamp etc. and depending on the capabilities of each, they will subtract a varying amount from the 100% that the cartridge is theoretically capable of producing.

Is a great cartridge on a so-so table better than a more modest cartridge on a great turntable? I don't know for sure and I'm not sure anyone else does either, but if you start with a good cartridge and then use and upgrade the rest of the gear along the way, at least you will be able to hear what each change does.

Nothing further down the chain can remedy a weakness in a component up near the top of the chain. It can just allow you to lose less of what came out of the record/cartridge interface in the first place.

You guys are right; I apologize for my part in digressing from the real topic of the thread. To the OP, I would say that my experience over the last 10-12 years, with running up to 5 turntables using 5 different tonearms with dozens of different cartridges is that you should consider the cartridge and tonearm as a unit, a closed system.  The SQ from any given cartridge, no matter how expensive or how cheap, and no matter how it transduces physical motion to an electrical signal (MM, MI, or MC), is highly dependent upon the tonearm/headshell into which it is mounted.  Mating cartridges to tonearms for optimum results has in my experience been a hit or miss affair (after one has done the homework to make at least a good mating), in terms of max results, but you can get "good" results by thoughtful matching done on an empirical basis.  After that, turntables each have their own character which seems to remain fairly constant regardless of the tonearm/cartridge mounted on a given one. Also, to a large degree, where a tonearm has exchangeable headshells, you can manipulate the result by experimenting with various headshells.  So, I never think of the relative importance of a cartridge and a turntable per se.

Thing is, turntables don’t wear out after 1000 hours. Neither do tonearms. So look at TT, tonearm, and cartridge costs over 10 years.

For the record, I had a 10K belt drive TT. Then I built my DIY air bearing TT. Same tonearm on each table. The air bearing TT sounded far better with a budget cartridge than the commercial TT with a higher end Koetsu. Wife agreed. But DIY TT + Koetsu = heaven.

Also, that Koetsu takes real trouble to set up optimally, and a lesser tonearm can’t do it. It's a matter of alignment, which requires both stability and the capacity for fine adjustments.

Finally, before you spend big bucks on a cartridge, try to make sure that your stylus wears slowly. That means ultrasonic record cleaning and strict record hygiene. I do both, and my Koetsu stylus has minimal wear at 1000 hours. If that’s too much trouble, then definitely do not spend serious money on a serious cartridge until you win the lottery.

I agree with Lewm about the cartridge / tonearm combination. Also, that TT's are pretty much independent of either.

So why not spend the money where you can be sure of good results? That is, the TT.

aj523   I agree, I have up grade my REGA RP6 with: New mat, Sub platter, and conterweight; using a Dynavector DV20 x 2L and a Clearsudio Basic + phono preamp, with great succes

New speakers you want to hear a big difference...

This was a pretty neat discussion before veering into belt vs DD.  A lot of interesting points made.

My own unscientific opinion is that budget carts sound pretty darn good, and like others have pointed out, they depreciate quickly.  And I've heard budget carts really shine with some expensive phono stages (although some will expose their limitations).  So given the question posed by the OP, I'd spend more on the turntable first.  

But as always, a vinyl playback system is just that, a system of a motor/platter/plinth/tonearm/cartridge/phono pre/etc, so it's all about finding the right combo for you.  Tune it by ear and don't worry about where you allocated money.

System synergy is difficult for me to plan so I have made upgrades based on budget and opportunity. I have focused my gear with one brand so I would expect success regarding pre, amp & phono.  I started my love for vinyl 15 years ago with a used Rega Planar 2 from eBay that had the original MM cartridge. I enjoyed if for several years and then got a used Rega RP6 from here with the original HO MM Exact2 cartridge. I was upgrading both at the same time and loved it immediately. I later purchased a used LO MC Goldring Eroica LX that had been retipped with the Sapphire service at SoundSmith. This was a really nice step up. A couple years have passed and I recently purchased a Benz Wood SM new from our good friend Kron here on Audiogon. Okay, my first new cartridge and an obvious step up from all others. This cartridge blew me away right out of the box. The soundstage became three dimensional and so precise! I have been so amazed. I have made other upgrades of components that I will leave out of this conversation, but this was the most fun of them all. I was thinking to start a thread to encourage more newbie analog members like myself to not forget the cartridge. The more seasoned folks realized this long ago.

I will once again chime in with the suggestion that you explore the Well Tempered Labs line of turntables.  Speed stability, inaudible rumble, absolute tracking stability, long-term reliability...all boxes checked.  Mine is the original from 1988.  No plan to change.  

The turntable should be the thing in your system that vanishes and most don't.  Check out anything that George Merrill builds.... http://hifigem.com/
He's been doing this for a long time and there are several informative papers that he's authored as well. 
His all out assault on a turntable that checks all the boxes is:  http://hifigem.com/merrill-williams-101-3-turntable.html
Be careful who you listen to...and best of luck.

Great TT and arm,  Great  Cartridge, Great phono stage = great sound.
But! Nothing will help a bad sounding cartridge.

Hi. I’ve not read everything that’s come before, so I apologize for any redundancy. I liked and agree with the early post about the cartridge, turntable and phono preamp each being 90% of the sound. So I treat all three equally, and I’m always asking myself, which of the three has become my weakest link? It doesn’t mean I spend the same amount on each one, but rather I read reviews looking for a piece that costs maybe twice what my current one does—and is consistently called a value that (I hate this phrase) punches above its weight. And the circle goes round till I’m happy. Which I am right now, for now. Given that you didn’t mention your phono pre, I wonder if it’s your next upgrade? 

I made the exact change...
I had the 'MMF 5.1' and changed to the 'VPI Classic 2se' which has a 10.5 tonearm
              o moving the Ortofon Quintet Black S MC cartridge

My opinion is that there was a significant difference in bass response and generally overall better sound.  Friends that frequently listen with me also thought there was a big difference from upgrading to the VPI.
     be sure to look for used here on audiogon. 
     lots of good options VPI, TTWeights, ClearAudio --> sky is the limit

rest of my set up -->  
· Threshold FET 9 pre-amp
· Threshold CAS1 amp
· Totem Hawk speakers
· Sunfire SDS8 sub
· Richard Gray Power Company 400S AC Line Conditioner
- NittyGritty record cleaner
  

Your Ortofon Black would benefit from a better turntable/arm. The new Technics tables/arms, as suggested here, definitely sound good with the 2M series. An added bonus would with the Technics is that it would allow you to swap out another headshell with the 2m white mono cartridge an you could enjoy mono records too.

As an owner of three turntables (all direct drive) I consider the merits are approx:
Turntable 35%
Cartridge 35%
Phono 20%
Tonearm 10%
But these merits are for performance.  There is an overwhelming argument to put your money into the turntable.  It is that you keep your turntable, whereas cartridges wear out.  Not to mention breaking them.  

Tube;

Lol,  Not much of a summary from anybody
        It seems like everybody counterpoints the other guy  

I’m in your boat, just bought Project Classic with upgraded Hana SL with Musical surroundings 2+
We will see!

My guess : from  upgrading cartridges on same turntable and hearing how loading a cartridge (Mc) changes sound on a preamp
   The all have an good size effect On a resolving “ enough” system. My guess is turntable the least , cartridge the most in pretty equal %’s 

If you find a good solid answer , let me know 

I do know that the real good LP stuff is fabulous, from listening to buddies “ good stuff” 

jeff

I’ve noticed  some listeners aren’t as sensitive to pitch stability. The table may then be less important. A lessor table, especially a mediocre belt drive would be completely unacceptable to me. I cannot listen to piano not holding pitch. But a lessor cartridge I may more likely still be able to enjoy. 

So after reading a lot of this is my belt driven VPI Classic 30th anniversary junk?

@jimman2        
No one here would say that it’s junk.  IMO I wouldn’t put an excessively expensive cartridge on it before upgrading the table first. That’s what the original post was asking advice on. Some of us get carried away expressing our opinions. Didn’t  mean to sound offensive. 

Nothing will help a bad sounding cartridge.

definitely @danvignau 

A lessor table, especially a mediocre belt drive would be completely unacceptable to me. I cannot listen to piano not holding pitch.

good point @sdrsdrsdr  

Whenever I have upgraded a turntable, my vinyl system does sound better but it has been more or less depending on the cartridge.
My first good turntable was a VPI Traveler II and the sound was incredible.  After a few years I wanted to upgrade and I bought a Technics 1200GR. 
Compared to the VPI, the GR changed the sound accordingly for each cartridge-
1) Ortofon 2M Black.  Slightly more energy and dynamics, speed stability and pitch were greatly improved.  Sound was more neutral and transparent.  Overall a good improvement.  
2) Dynavector  DV20X2L.  I did not notice that much improvement with the Technics.  The Dynavector was an excellent match for the VPI. 
3) Audio Technica ART9.  Absolutely huge improvement.  Stunning. 
Bass was lower, much better defined and had more impact with the GR. 
Dynamics and drive were much improved.  Speed and attack increased dramatically.  An incredible combination.   

@mikelavigne 

excellent post on “ ratcheting of price levels”
I missed your interpretation, originally

for each price level ?  Would you be able to give an example of each? And/or your thoughts 

i did not notice any notes on phono preamp options ?  And/or your thoughts 
Well done, and well summarized on your opinions 

jeff  

Ivor Teifenbrun's Linn HiFI Hierarchy is still begin debated 50 years on.  The founder of Linn developed the marketing gimmick that the turntable was the most important part of a sound system, followed by the arm, then cartridge, electronics, with teh speakers being the least important. Why?  Because he owned a machine shop and turntables were the only audio component he could build.  I bought into this for a brief period when I decided to upgrade from a Dual turntable with Ortofon cartridge to a Linn Axis table with Linn Basik arm, using the same cartridge.  The change made NO difference whatsoever.  I had tapes (yes, casette tapes) made from the Dual, that I played alongside the new Linn, so definitely no difference.  I took my new rig to my friend's house who had a Dual table with a much nicer cartridge (Goldring, I think), and it smoked my table - more natural, more detailed, more spacious.  So no, the table isn't always more important than the cartridge.  This is not to say the table is never the limiting factor, I'm sure it can be, and I'm sure given a balanced system, table improvements can make a significant difference.  But the idea that once you have a reasonable cartridge, the biggest improvements will come from table upgrades until you've spent big money on the table seems nonsensical.

mijostyn I'm not sure the people at AMG or Brinkmann share your opinion regarding DD turntables.

As for the question in the title - of what is more important, first its the table as this is the fundamental of your analog system, than it's the tonearm and than the cartridge. also, don't forget a good phono stage, you won't believe how much difference it makes. 

@honest1  You had a poor experience with your Linn Axis vs a Dual. Unfortunately that does not lead to a universal declaration, it leads to a 'humble opinion'-- like you just gave.

Hello, if you compare the turntable to the cartridge, I will agree that the cartridge has a bigger affect on the sound than the turntable does but it is extremely important to understand that everything has an affect on the sound of your vinyl. So if you were looking to improve your sound, different phono cables will dramatically change the sound. Also, platter mats made from various materials will probably make the same cartridge sounds slow and lifeless to exciting and fast. Footers under your turntable affect sound along with arms, turntable plinths etc.  So there is so much more that has a super big affect on the sound other than the turntable.  

Well, I think we’ve successfully run off the OP with brand bashing and endless direct vs belt supremacy debate ...

In case he/she still lurking from a safe distance, the problem is there simply is NO answer the way the question is framed. This is a SYSTEMS issue ... just like the entire audio chain, but let’s just focus on this source piece, which is comprised of 3 or 4 elements (depending if you count the phone pre) ... table, arm, cartridge, phono pre.
At some level of capability and refinement EVERY one of these can be the weak link, and upon upgrading, just shifts the weak link elsewhere.  It is silly to devote a drastically disproportionate share budget or quality so that you have one immensely good element that is then limited by 3 others. 
So if you are building to an ‘ultimate’ or ‘final’ source system one big upgrade to an element one at a time ... or make less dramatic (and expensive) upgrades to individual elements that aren't significantly ‘stranding capital’ for too long.

my $0.02 ...