Uberwaltz, I have an iPad with current iOS and BlueSound app. The Vault will update itself periodically as needed. I have a Signal Cable Digital Reference power cord with Furutech C7 termination on its way...what the Hell, figure it can't help! I also run my Vanguard and Vault through a Transparent ISO DUO power outlet.
High End Amp Price Collapse musings
If Class D amplification becomes accepted by audiophiles there should be a glut of high end amps (Krell, Levinson, Pass etc) becoming available on the used market at prices a fraction of what they are now.
Think CRT TV when the flat panels began emerging.I think Ill hold off on a new/used amp purchase for a little while. Maybe I will bet a Boulder.
Has any one else considered this?
167 responses Add your response
It seems that the people critical of Class D amps haven’t given them a fair shake/listenI can only speak to my specific experiences, as can any of us. However, as I have posted previously, I did give the Acoustic Imagery Atsah, Ncore, NC1200 monoblock amplifiers a fair shake, since I purchased them, owned them, played them in my system for over a year, and during that time period compared them head-to-head with three other really good amps, two of which I still own. It was amplifier roulette for awhile and I surprisingly learned that, sort of like Dorothy, I had actually started with my ideal amplifier several years earlier but just didn’t realize it. Since I had sold those original amps (to a buyer who enjoys them to this day) I was fortunate to find another pair and even more fortunate that Wilson Shen with Clayton Audio was still around to fully upgrade them so they sound awesome. Any of us who post here are speaking to our own experiences, systems, rooms, biases, etc., which is why anybody trying to find universal truth on these forums will eventually be disappointed. |
Clayton M300, 300/600 wpc into 8/4 ohms in Class A. Yes, they get hot but they have high/low bias, which helps. I quit sweating the small stuff, like warm-up time because it is all relative, since they sound so good from the time I turn them on...they just sound better after 30 minutes. Others in the rotation were Lamm M1.2 Reference, the NC1200 Atsahs, and a McCormack DNA-2 LAE designed by David Reich, with full upgrades by Steve McCormack at SMc Audio in 2014. I still own the DNA-2 and the Claytons. |
@mitch2 I meant the more recent incarnations of Class D - in my post I mentioned that I think they have come a long ways in past few years, especially with the NAD I am now using. On another subject I was recently reading an article about Bob Carver and the Stereophile amp challenge. He was able to exactly reproduce the sound of $7,000.00+ tube amplifiers in a modified $700.00 SS amp without knowing the amp he was cloning - it was a pair Conrad-Johnson Premier Twelves (I am simplifying things - google as it's a good read). I picked up one of his production models recently (M-1.0t) and have yet to listen to it (I have low expectations...but) |
Much has been said about Class D sound quality vs. other amps that I cannot add to that discussion. However, I want to point out that even if Class D amps were proven best of the amps, this has nothing to do with pricing. Capitalism 101: Price on value, not parts. Separate the price and cost as much as you can. So assuming I made the worlds best amps, and they were class D I'd still sell them for $120k each monoblock. :) Maybe I'd make them out of milled platinum ingots for "minimum resonance" or something. The rise, or fall of any particular technology is not going to depress the high end pricing at all. Best, E |
And yet another thread about how Class D will never sound as good as Class A/AB amps, with a few people who’ve gone out on a limb and tried Class D with great success representing the lunatic minority (I happen to be among the lunatic minority, with my Class D powered on as I type this and my Audio Research tube amp collecting dust)... I’m surprised you guys haven’t tired of this subject yet - the threads are all alike, they never progress, they never advance. Maybe it’s time for a thread about how there’s no point in trying any new restaurants, because nothing will ever create as much emotion and connection as a trip to the Golden Corral buffet? |
Jet Hewtech PE SHIELDED Hirakawa-FP 3 by 16gauge AWG from Japan. White vinyl jacket with silver terminations and what looks like a ferrite magnet near inlet IEC. My dealer gave it to me to use with my Krell Vanguard Integrated but I never tried it till a couple days ago. They used to come with the High End Sony Plasma tv's...he said it was a good power cord (understatement). Anyway, it outperforms my MIT Oracle ACII Zcord ($4500), MIT Magnum ACII Z cord ($2300) Audioquest NRG 5 ($800)and Transparent Powerlink MM2 ($2100)!!! By outperform I mean it is practically perfect in every way so that it allows complete transparency, maximum dynamics, holographic imaging, natural tone with an organic sense of texture that creates 3D roundedness like great tube gear:). Simply astonishing. |
@bcgator I think we in the lunatic minority are much more prevalent in this thread than has been in the past. Rowland, Cary, ATI to name just a few high end companies seem to be developing (at least some) of their amps using D Class modules. They wouldn't be doing that if Class D wasn't good. Takes a while to break a stigma but I think it's getting there. |
Good thread. I have twin Luxman M 05s in my system (Class A) and although 30 years old the sound is superb. Far better than the Bryston 14b SST they replaced, despite the age difference. I think, however, after hearing a few Class D amps they have a long way to go. They DO however, make excellent sub amps, which is why you get subs now with the high power for long excursion (the first being the Sunfire True Subwoofer, IIRC correctly). But subs don't need treble sweetness or soundstaging or imaging as a amp for mains would need. Moreover, they are not nearly as pure in the treble and midrange liquidity as a good Class A amp can provide. In fact, I doubt seriously that the Class D amp will compete in this regard, although I do see a time when Class D could compete with Class A/B amps. I think Class A (either solid stage or tube) is just a step above and those whom have heard them (like me) are willing to pay the premium for the sound. I cannot see myself ever going back from Class A and sure hope that there are offerings around when I do need it. The Accuphase A 200 mono Class A amps are my dream go-to amps, now if only I could find a way to afford them. Speaking of pricing...... |
@blackfly Class D amps have come a long long way since their inception when they were used solely as sub amps. I'll argue that they don't have a long way to go as many of us in this thread feel they are equal if not superior to the Class A and A/B amps we've used, some very expensive. I can almost guarantee that your 30 year old amps have nowhere near the low noise floor, damping factor, etc. of the NAD M22. Amplification of sound is still science and people are starting to refer to Class D as possible near perfect amplification. The soundstage and imaging of this amp in my setup is off the charts - it's not a cheap amp at $3000.00. My 2 little KEF LS50 speakers have disappeared from my room. I think you need to take another listen. |
MHO... Class D has already surpassed all else in terms of 'units in service', if you count cell phones and any portable digital device. As for the quality, it'll turn on demand. What with the rise of headphones and ear buds, that is what will ultimately 'push' the market's response. 'Home theater' will benefit from that, and will add to that demand. Smaller, more powerful, better response will prevail. All else will eventually become 'niche' or 'vintage', which is already occurring. Digital will win, analog will fade, becoming the 'start' but not the end product. 'Analog' will be what you experience at a live venue, instantly becoming digital with the means of amplifying it or recording/reproducing it. Is mostly thus already... 'Flat panel' speakers are another subject we can dis about and over... DML's are beginning to be less laughable already. Why would someone want an ugly or even stylish 'monkey box' cluttering up their already small living space when they could have this 'picture' like object hanging on the wall that sounds great 'enough' and a subwoofer is the coffee table? As J. Lennon suggested, "The war is over." The new will replace the old over time, as it always has. Unless you'd like to get rid of that nice UHD flat panel TV you've got, and go back to CRT's, I'll suggest that y'all get used to the future. It's here already, becoming the past as we sit and bitch about 'change' and how we may not like it... Or, to be really crass about it....it's 'vintage' already. Get Over It. |
The new will replace the old over time, as it always has. Yes, we are all going to die, we get it. Technological "advances" are nothing new with Class D amps. I'm in my mid 50's, with children in their mid 20's to early 30's. Despite all of the new ways to communicate that weren't around when I was their age, internet , smart phones, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, etc., etc., they still struggle to communicate on a human level. They seem to lack negotiating, haggling, bartering, and just general bull-sh!tting skills. Yet they are not inferior to my generation, nor better. I would not say that my children's lives are any better than mine, just as my life is no better than my children's, my father or grandfathers. Newer is not better or worse, only different. If you enjoy Class D amps, that's terrific! If you enjoy SET amps, that's super! If you enjoy Class A, A/B, G, H, etc., that's awesome! If you enjoy vinyl, digital, computer, that's fabulous! The main goal in this hobby is that you are enjoying music. Whatever "tool" helps you to enjoy the music more is a good thing, no? Cheers, John |
"Future generations will look at amps that are not class d or digital as dinosaur fossils . There will be no mass market makers of class A or ab or anyone to service them . I don't think I will be around when this happens but class A , AB inevitably will disappear ." You mean those generations that prefer music from their iPhone in the form of compressed mp3's, or God forbid streaming from their "Alexa" eavesdropping device? LOL Eventually we will probably stream digital directly into our neural implant, but somewhere there will still be vacuum tubes glowing as life forms listen to the latest hit from the andromeda galaxies latest super-group, Faith +1. |
jimman2 You did not read my post. My Bryston 14b SST was bought new in 2009 and had the lowest noise floor of any amp I have heard, and measured. My noise floor on the Luxmans I have is negligible (think modern low) and distortion nonexistent. AGE DOES NOT MEAN A THING. Circuit topology and implementation are everything (including parts quality). Moreover, your $3000 NAD, new is about what the going price for one of my 30+ year old amps is about these days, condition considered. Moreover, although you might be impressed, it is your perception that gives your opinion. I have heard current amps at $10k that do not touch the amps I have, and even better, since age is considered, I get what I want at bargain, really, since the sound is so good. IF you think your NAD is that good; and I give this: Class D in the bass is penultimate (again, the reason it is the best amp for subs), go out and directly compare it to a Luxman M 800, or Accuphase A 200. No dice. Like a lot of things in audio, once one has made the A/B test the results often present themselves. I never thought I would of gotten rid of a near new Bryston 14b SST on the thought it was good, but in the listening, the proof was there, and I was sold. And in terms of amplification being science, we have proven the "Julian Hirsch Ideology" moot. If music and sound were purely scientific there would be no art. |
blackfly ... Class D in the bass is penultimate (again, the reason it is the best amp for subs), go out and directly compare it to a Luxman M 800, or Accuphase A 200. No dice.Penultimate to what? Your statement doesn't make any sense. In any event, I haven't met a Class D amp that compares with the best of the "conventional" amps. Of course, I haven't heard them all. |
I also agree that Class-D is not the end all be all for subs. They're used in subs because they are cheap and can put out lots of power. I've owned a couple of subs with Class-D subs and one with a traditional A/B external amplifier (RBH). To my ear it was much more natural sounding when used with music. |
hk_fan ... Class-D is not the end all be all for subs. They're used in subs because they are cheap and can put out lots of power ...Agreed! There's no question that when it comes to size, weight, price and power consumption, it's tough to top Class D. As for sound quality ... that's another matter altogether. |
blackfly I did read your post before responding. You said Class D "has a longs ways to go..." (without mentioning any Class D amps that you have listened to). I gave my opinion that it doesn't have a long way to go and in previous posts compared it to some high end amplifiers I've owned, including a Class A ATI amplifier that cost over $2000.00, 20 years ago. You also said "go out and directly compare it to a Luxman M 800, or Accuphase A 200. No Dice." That statement is illogical and even a little arrogant since you are judging the Luxman and the Accuphase against the NAD without listening to the NAD. You make blanket statements as to why Class A has to be the best and D Class basically sucks. From your bold statements, I'm sure an ATI without it's fancy chassis and lacking an inflated price tag would never be welcome in your home. |
Time to chime with my direct a/b comparo BAT VK600SE vs Red Dragon S500 Everything else the same, just swapping leads between the bat and the red dragon. Hate to say it but it looks like the 120lb space heater is going to be looking for a new home. I honestly thought the Red Dragon beat the BAT out on soundstage, noise floor and vocals. The BAT may have aced it on low bass, not too surprising. All in all the class d just sounded plain "nice" for want of a better word, no fatigue or lack of warmth, at least not to my ears, in my system with my music |
Not so deep into the future we may have trouble finding brand new cheap Class AB power amplifiers. If anything, it might be wise to buy one now if that's what you might want down the road. Of course, a used Class AB might be available <$1000 but will the company/service manuals still be around and how soon will it need recapping and other service? |
Hi, I think that however good Class D becomes, it will always sound different than Class A, and a significant enough number of audiophiles will consider them worth their weight that the market for used class A / AB amps will not take a nose dive anytime soon. As for the discussion regarding vinyl, I ditched mine a long ago in favor of CDs. I don’t miss the vinyl, though I can relate to the elegance of an all analog path. After all, all speakers are analog, as they must be, since our ears are. As I said I ditched my records a long time ago. I still have my 1,000 or so CDs, but I don’t listen to them anymore. Instead I listen to FLAC files (I subscribe to TIDAL) for the following reasons: 1). Economic: I get access to all of my CD’s (or near enough as makes no matter) plus anything else I want to try on for size. The $20/month I pay to tidal is nothing. There was a time I spent 20 times that amount or more on CDs. Plus I don’t need to spend a lot of money on playback devices. Vinyl enthusiasts spend thousands on turntables and cartridges. I see record cleaners costing more than $1,000!!! 2) Convenience Tidal stores my music for me (though I do store my favorite albums on my phone so I can listen to them when I don’t have a high speed internet connection) 3) Longevity: My FLAC files will never wear out, get scratched, or otherwise degrade. You can’t even say that for CD’s though they are less susceptible to wear and somewhat more forgiving of minor damage than vinyl. 4) Portability. I can take all my music with me wherever I go. If I don’t have an acceptable setup available for playing through loudspeakers, I can connect my Oppo headphones to my phone (an LG V20 which sports a decent DAC). Having said all that, I am in the market for a new amp and am leaning toward class AB tubes because I think my Magnepan 1.7s will respond well to that configuration. Though I am intrigued by the Rogue hybrid (tube pre-amp section; Class D amplifier section), I am going to be looking for a used all tube solution (maybe Audio Research). One more aside: According to my understanding, calling class D amps digital is a bit of a misnomer. They are no more digital than your microwave (which has some ’digitalness’ to it since it has only two modes: on and off). Like a microwave a Class D is either on or off as opposed to a Class A/B which is always on. The difference between a class D amp and a microwave is that a class D amp switches on and off so fast that it "looks" to your speaker like a varying continuous signal. I have enjoyed this thread, and hope my post is not too long-winded. Thanks all. |
Class-D is nothing new. It's been around since the 50's if not longer... about the same time the transistor came about. Why has it taken so long for it to become the "next great thing"?? I've owned a couple of high end Class-D amps, NuForce References as well as Bel Canto and they weren't bad. They were quite good, but there was always something missing. Will they get better, of course, but so will transistor designs and tube designs. I guess I just like big, heavy amps. :) |
Like a microwave a Class D is either on or off as opposed to a Class A/B which is always on.Not really... a Class A/B output device is either partially-ON or completely off. (Class A outputs are always partially-ON). The "partially-ON" part is the hard one, no device is entirely linear doing that. So they basically do just "some more" or "some less" in relatively accurate but still uneven amounts. But the very fast solid state devices are VERY good at being ON or OFF over precise times, so in at least that way that works better -- the power devices don’t have to be linear, they just have to be fast. |
markainsworth wrote:
And this really is the crux of the matter. Is any particular class-A amplifier really that great? or is it different? What I mean is, if you say amp Abc is your reference, and then challenge any other amp to be "as good" then maybe none will because all will be "different." I know some of the amps I like the most are just not that accurate. In fact they are quite colorful and euphonic. I think the ICEPower amps I'm listening to right now are actually much more accurate, terribly smooth and powerful with great soundstaging and no detectable noise. In many dimensions these amps have eclipsed my all-time references the Conrad Johnson Premiere 8s. But better? Hmmmm, difficult question. I can say, for music and practical reasons I would not trade my amps for the CJ's right now. Best, E |
Good thread but people keep bashing Class D with generalities. I haven't read a D-basher here yet that mentions which high end Class D amps they've listened to that pale in comparison to their Class A or A/B amps. For instance - Neal, I'd be interested to know which
recent Class D amps have you heard that are so bad? I have to doubt you've heard the new NAD stuff and if you have and still grade it a "D", then I'd have to say you're fibbing. It is not only garnering acclaim in every review I've read but I own one and have compared it to both a tube amplifier and a very well regarded Class A amp (ATI) and it kinda blows them away in most regards. |
I haven't read a D-basher here yet that mentions which high end Class D amps they've listened to that pale in comparison to their Class A or A/B amps.Then you should go back and read the whole thread. While some have made blanket statements about Class D or Class A or AB, others have indeed cited specific examples. Read my post from 02-07-2017 at 10:30pm for one example. However, I didn't bash the Class D amplifier (which actually sounded quite good in many respects) and I didn't say it "paled in comparison" but simply that I liked the Class A amps better. So much of what we hear is affected by listener preferences, the type of music played, the room, and the ancillary equipment that most attempts at gross generalities or blanket statements do nothing more than incite an endless loop of rebuttals. |
Mitch - I did read your previous post and my last post isn't intended for you at all as you did in fact mention some Class D amps that you listened to and compared (you are one of the very few to mention names and a comparison). I respect that you prefer amp A vs. amp B, whatever the amp may be. My point was intended for the vast majority of posters here that criticize Class D without citing a direct comparison or naming the Class D amps that they feel sound so awful. I again mention that Class D has evolved greatly in the past 2-3 years so to compare a 5-10 year old Class D amp to what is presently out there isn't a fair comparison (I am not referring to your comparison). I've 'called out' several 'basher' posters by asking what Class D amps they've listened to and have yet to hear a response. |
I directly compared the Spectron Musician III Mk.2 with all upgrades to my Sanders Magtech on my Magnepan 3.7i's. With balanced connections, the Spectron did edge out the Magtech. The only reason that I didn't buy the Spectron was that there was some weird interference issue that would just randomly happen. It would manifest itself as static on my right speaker and sounded similar to cell phone interference. I'm considering the Merrill Veritas, which is also Class D. |
This thread has inspired me to fulfill a dream. Now that everyone is so clearly into these newfangled cars with fuel injectors and computers, I can finally get a '62 Corvette for next to nothing. I've got $1,500 burning a hole in my pocket and I'll probably have enough left over to pick up a pair of Pass mono blocks. Life is good. |
@johnk Has a point. It's not about the technology, it is about what the market will bear. @audiofreak32 This is kind of my point. If you insist that a PASS is the very best (which you may) then no matter how good another amp sounds, if it is different, it won't be "as good" to you. So this "when will amp X ever be as good or better than amp Y" is kind of a setup. From my perspective, having heard a nice, full Pass set-up, I cannot justify the spend vs. my Class D amps based on sound quality alone. Nor do I have the room or electricity budget! :) My point is, Class D is very very good. Anyone waiting for Class D to reach "high end" is just not being objective. It has been there for years. If you want it to sound like your peculiar flavor of amp, well that's another thing. Yes, I have my own particular peculiarities too! :) I'm just saying, the wait for excellent Class D has been over for a while, but I must resign myself that my B&O powered amps will never sound like a pair of Conrad Johnson Premier 8, which you should all bow and worship... (hahahaha, j/k, but it IS my fave all time). In any event, always make yourself happy with the money you spend. Best, E |
