High End Amp Price Collapse musings

#1 Granny

That's Funny I don't care who you are.

Best,

Kenny.

The universe I say! 

The End of Days is coming folks Repent your sins!!

Class D will run the planet.

This is an amazing and rational thread. I am currently auditioning a  Nuprime ST10 and Red Dragon S500 class D amps, but well $2K, and they are quite good.  However, these class D amps do, frankly, seem less musically involving that that fine tube amps. The class D amps are astonishing clarity and LF control, but neither of the modestly-priced class D amps I am auditioning can come close to matching the appealing mid-range bloom of a my tube amp. However, they excel in other respects.

Finally, a shout-out to Tgonzales and Guidocorona for two of the most erudite posts I have had the pleasure of reading on Audiogon.  Sharp guys, these two.   "Rational audiophiles" is an oxymoronic descriptor.  We might fancy that we are such, but we are really, in the main, religious zealots passionately devoted to that particular aspect of musical reproduction that moves us, and the gear that makes the happen.  As the Buddha said, "There are many paths..."  

I do note in passing that there are boatloads of sellers of uber-expensive amplifiers on Audiogon and Audio Mart that will be fortunate enough to recover 50% of the cost of their gear in the aftermarket.  I don't think class D amps have moved the needle to much, but clearly they are garnering market share.   I have never played in this realm of costly gear myself, but there are clearly winners and losers in the bargain.  It is symmetrical in that the loss the sellers will bear will be the same benefit the buyers will receive.  With the plethora of gear for sale in the on-line aftermarket so heavily discounted, I question the wisdom of buying new gear. Personally, I prefer to buy used whenever possible.

Just call Neal at Sound Science and he will work with you. I purchased my music server from him also. We both replaced some $20,000 - $25,000 in separates it's the 2170.  

http://www.soundsciencecat.com

Granny,

I'm glad to hear you are really enjoying the 2170.
I have that one on my list to check into I haven't seen much info about it though.

Do you have a dealer close or were you able to listen to one before buying?

Best,

Kenny.

Yes I own the 2170 and it replaced $20,000 worth of separates! Love it! Combines SOTA room correction, with a great DSP dac and outstanding amp as you mention.

I have owned great separates from the likes of TRL, CJ, Aesthetix, Canary, Von Gaylord, Tom Evans, Parasound, Blue Circle, Cary, Atmasphere, Bruce Moore, Lector,  and others. This little 2170 from Lyndorf is my favorite. No more interconnects, only one power cord, no digital cables, very short signal paths, and a resulting sound that is spectacular.

If you do a little research Danish company Lyngdorf has several patents 
and has technologies that use far less feedback then most digital companies ,
use the latest Hispeed Mosfets  and only a pr of Poly caps on the output 
the 2400 model I listened to ,that I am buying beat my dual mono a pass labs 
in several key areas .with my new Sonusfaber Olympica-3 speakers they are pretty nimble and prefer soundthing  very musical but also nimble the Lyngdorf 
at $2500 in my opinion is as good perhaps even a little more fleshed out in sounds then the Merrill which I heard side by side  for sure the best bass I have heard in the $4k and under class.  They also have a model with excellent room correction built in .i would have liked that  the 2400 model is 200, and 400 wpc .

P.S. I checked my status and I have positive feedback on Audiogon back to 2008 so I've been a member of this community at least that long.  

I've been on Audiogon for many years and have made numerous other posts in the past on different subjects - if I remember Audiogon went through some major changes in the past few years.

I (again state) that I find it interesting that numerous people owning Class A amplifiers bash Class D (in this thread) without indicating what (Class D) they've listened to.  I've made that point several times to no meaningful response.  I've never busted on anyone for owning Class A - my point is simply that if you are going to say something is better than something else it would help if you've listened to the something else and if you haven't your opinion is therefore not valid.  Analogy - I think apples are great but oranges suck and BTW I've never eaten an orange.  Maybe now you understand the point of my 16 posts.  When I get time I'm going to read through this entire post and list the quotes I think are not credible and why I think such.

@jimman2, it's time to come clean.
Do you have some skin in this game?

You joined Audiogon 3 months ago, have 15 posts, ALL on this thread.
Don't you have any interest in anything audio related other than amplifiers?

You seem to enjoy busting on other folks amplifier purchases, but no interest in speakers, digital, analog, music, tech talk, or anything else in this hobby.

Are you a dealer or manufacturer? If not, what is your problem?

@speeddeacon 
'While I hope that the cheaper amps will not outperform or even remotely equal the sonics of their more expensive brethren...'  I don't understand why you would say that and you better get to much better than 80% if you are going to spend that kind of money.

My dream is that  a cheap amp outperforms and supercedes any amp no matter the price.  

And you can see, all this discussion is really not off-post as the Class A audiosnobs have already stated that Class D is vastly inferior (without citing specific direct comparisons) ...so those people will continue to pay whatever for those amps and thus the prices will NOT plummet.  Part of being an audiosnob is the appearance of their amp BTW - gotta have that 3/4 inch thick machined faceplate with fancy logo.  Remember though that's not just for appearance, that makes their amp sound much better due to the distortion reducing affect and the overall improvement to imaging and soundstage.

I am very happy with the Nuforce HT amp I am now running, about 35lb vs TWO 82lb lumps I was previously running.
Only downside I really have now is....what do I do with all that wide open empty rack space?

Agreed! I am listening to a Lyngdorf 2400 that is Class D and simply outstanding! Easily makes it obvious I can sell off those back breaking  70 pound amps of my past. This amp is simply outstanding! 

The thread has lost its focus on the original proposal, which is that IF class D becomes accepted by audiophiles there may be a glut of expensive "Big Iron" on the market at fire sale prices. Many have simply commented that that the IF will not happen because of quality differences between Class A, AB and D, real or perceived.

I would propose that the IF has actually begun to happen as more high end companies release their improved class D designs. I myself am entering into the research phase for new amplification for my 20 year old class massive class A/AB amplified 2 channel set up. One of the products I'm interested in is the BHK Signature 300 Monoblocs from PS Audio, a hybrid tube input/Mosfet output stage design of Bascom King.  At $15k MSRP they are expensive, but far from outlandishly so compared to many other products out there. That is low end Pass and medium end ARC, for example.  But Paul McGowan and his team are releasing a class D mono block that lists for 1/5th the price which naturally piques my curiosity. While I hope that the cheaper amps will not outperform or even remotely equal the sonics of their more expensive brethren, the question will most certainly be how musically satisfying are they for 1/5th the price.  If the answer is anything north of 80%, or simply fine nuance differences, I would have to seriously think about it before pulling the trigger on the 300s. Obviously since I am even considering the 300s I can afford them, but that is certainly not the case for many audiophiles.  $15k amps probably reside in $50k systems realistically.  But in a $20k system, which probably represents a lot of audiophiles, $3k amps would allow more opportunity to upgrade speakers, or add a music server or analog rig, etc. This will be good for high end manufacturers and I hope to see the technology continue to improve.

@jimman2

Well, there’s a good argument to have. In the end, we don’t spend money to make oscilloscopes or microphones happy, it is all about what moves us to connect with and replay music, by ourselves or with those we love.

I think there is room for perfection as well as colorful re-production in that.


Best,

E

I think the 'perfect' amp should 'sound' like an exact performance of what is being amplified with zero distortion.  Class D is getting there.  How far has class A really evolved over the past 20 years?  A lot of people posting here claim their 20 year old amps sound better than anything Class D - most still haven't indicated what make/model 'inferior' Class D amps they have recently listened to as comparison - which makes their claims irrelevant.   Further, if a company has a 'signature' sound to their amp/equipment then inherently it is not a correct reproduction of the source no matter how good it sounds.    Put a perfect amp on a good source (which includes preamplification) with good speakers and imaging and sound-stage are going to take care of themselves.  Maybe reviewers will eventually stop using adjectives like 'warm', 'cold', 'fast', 'thin' when reviewing amplifiers - those adjectives could be then used towards source material 

@johnk Has a point. It's not about the technology, it is about what the market will bear.

@audiofreak32
This is kind of my point. If you insist that a PASS is the very best (which you may) then no matter how good another amp sounds, if it is different, it won't be "as good" to you. So this "when will amp X ever be as good or better than amp Y" is kind of a setup.

From my perspective, having heard a nice, full Pass set-up, I cannot justify the spend vs. my Class D amps based on sound quality alone. Nor do I have the room or electricity budget! :)

My point is, Class D is very very good. Anyone waiting for Class D to reach "high end" is just not being objective. It has been there for years. If you want it to sound like your peculiar flavor of amp, well that's another thing. Yes, I have my own particular peculiarities too! :) I'm just saying, the wait for excellent Class D has been over for a while, but I must resign myself that my B&O powered amps will never sound like a pair of Conrad Johnson Premier 8, which you should all bow and worship... (hahahaha, j/k, but it IS my fave all time).

In any event, always make yourself happy with the money you spend.

Best,


E

I would love to hear a Class D amplifier sound better than a PASS... wow.

Its not class D that is causing prices for used gear to drop. Its over pricing and aiming at a rich buyer. For what rich guy buys used electronics unless it Western Electric? And what average joe can afford even a highly discounted rich man toy? 

I'm with you jefferylee. There's a plan. 

This thread has inspired me to fulfill a dream. Now that everyone is so clearly into these newfangled cars with fuel injectors and computers, I can finally get a '62 Corvette for next to nothing. I've got $1,500 burning a hole in my pocket and I'll probably have enough left over to pick up a pair of Pass mono blocks. Life is good. 

Mitch2, I must admit I would love to hear the Clayton amps! Just out of my budget. I always look and relook and any used ones that come it. They are rare however. 

Hey I am a dealer for the Bricasti M28 mono block amplifiers 30K. Don't talk about a collapse, it makes me very nervous...............and I am already nervous enough. 

I directly compared the Spectron Musician III Mk.2 with all upgrades to my Sanders Magtech on my Magnepan 3.7i's.  With balanced connections, the Spectron did edge out the Magtech.  The only reason that I didn't buy the Spectron was that there was some weird interference issue that would just randomly happen.  It would manifest itself as static on my right speaker and sounded similar to cell phone interference.  

I'm considering the Merrill Veritas, which is also Class D.

Mitch - I did read your previous post and my last post isn't intended for you at all as you did in fact mention some Class D amps that you listened to and compared (you are one of the very few to mention names and a comparison).  I respect that you prefer amp A vs. amp B, whatever the amp may be.  My point was intended for the vast majority of posters here that criticize Class D without citing a direct comparison or naming the Class D amps that they feel sound so awful.  I again mention that Class D has evolved greatly in the past 2-3 years so to compare a 5-10 year old Class D amp to what is presently out there isn't a fair comparison (I am not referring to your comparison).   I've 'called out' several 'basher' posters by asking what Class D amps they've listened to and have yet to hear a response.  

I haven't read a D-basher here yet that mentions which high end Class D amps they've listened to that pale in comparison to their Class A or A/B amps.

Then you should go back and read the whole thread.  While some have made blanket statements about Class D or Class A or AB, others have indeed cited specific examples. Read my post from  02-07-2017 at 10:30pm for one example.  However, I didn't bash the Class D amplifier (which actually sounded quite good in many respects) and I didn't say it "paled in comparison" but simply that I liked the Class A amps better.  
So much of what we hear is affected by listener preferences, the type of music played, the room, and the ancillary equipment that most attempts at gross generalities or blanket statements do nothing more than incite an endless loop of rebuttals.  

Good thread but people keep bashing Class D with generalities.  I haven't read a D-basher here yet that mentions which high end Class D amps they've listened to that pale in comparison to their Class A or A/B amps. For instance - Neal, I'd be interested to know which recent Class D amps have you heard that are so bad?  I have to doubt you've heard the new NAD stuff and if you have and still grade it a "D", then I'd have to say you're fibbing.  It is not only garnering acclaim in every review I've read but I own one and have compared it to both a tube amplifier and a very well regarded Class A amp (ATI) and it kinda blows them away in most regards.

"D" would be the proper grade for the sound of these amps. They do not sound like music, IME. I will stick with my big fat Krell FPB 300cx.

Neal

markainsworth wrote:

Hi, I think that however good Class D becomes, it will always sound different than Class A, and a significant enough number of audiophiles will consider them worth their weight that the market for used class A / AB amps will not take a nose dive anytime soon.

And this really is the crux of the matter. Is any particular class-A amplifier really that great? or is it different?

What I mean is, if you say amp Abc is your reference, and then challenge any other amp to be "as good" then maybe none will because all will be "different."

I know some of the amps I like the most are just not that accurate. In fact they are quite colorful and euphonic. I think the ICEPower amps I'm listening to right now are actually much more accurate, terribly smooth and powerful with great soundstaging and no detectable noise.

In many dimensions these amps have eclipsed my all-time references the Conrad Johnson Premiere 8s. But better? Hmmmm, difficult question. I can say, for music and practical reasons I would not trade my amps for the CJ's right now.

Best,

E

Like a microwave a Class D is either on or off as opposed to a Class A/B which is always on.

Not really... a Class A/B output device is either partially-ON or completely off. (Class A outputs are always partially-ON). The "partially-ON" part is the hard one, no device is entirely linear doing that. So they basically do just "some more" or "some less" in relatively accurate but still uneven amounts.

But the very fast solid state devices are VERY good at being ON or OFF over precise times, so in at least that way that works better -- the power devices don’t have to be linear, they just have to be fast.

I think the dollar will collapse before hi end amplifiers do. 
Not sure that would solve your issues

Class-D is nothing new.  It's been around since the 50's if not longer... about the same time the transistor came about.

Why has it taken so long for it to become the "next great thing"??

I've owned a couple of high end Class-D amps, NuForce References as well as Bel Canto and they weren't bad.  They were quite good, but there was always something missing.  Will they get better, of course, but so will transistor designs and tube designs.

I guess I just like big, heavy amps.  :)

Like computers Class D amps are still evolving. A guys walks into a computer store for a possible purchase. He finally tells the clerk that he has decided to wait till computers improve in the near future. The clerk responds, then you will never own one because they are constantly improving.

Hi, I think that however good Class D becomes, it will always sound different than Class A, and a significant enough number of audiophiles will consider them worth their weight that the market for used class A / AB amps will not take a nose dive anytime soon.

As for the discussion regarding vinyl, I ditched mine a long ago in favor of CDs. I don’t miss the vinyl, though I can relate to the elegance of an all analog path. After all, all speakers are analog, as they must be, since our ears are.

As I said I ditched my records a long time ago. I still have my 1,000 or so CDs, but I don’t listen to them anymore. Instead I listen to FLAC files (I subscribe to TIDAL) for the following reasons:

1). Economic: I get access to all of my CD’s (or near enough as makes no matter) plus anything else I want to try on for size. The $20/month I pay to tidal is nothing. There was a time I spent 20 times that amount or more on CDs.

Plus I don’t need to spend a lot of money on playback devices. Vinyl enthusiasts spend thousands on turntables and cartridges. I see record cleaners costing more than $1,000!!!

2) Convenience Tidal stores my music for me (though I do store my favorite albums on my phone so I can listen to them when I don’t have a high speed internet connection)

3) Longevity: My FLAC files will never wear out, get scratched, or otherwise degrade. You can’t even say that for CD’s though they are less susceptible to wear and somewhat more forgiving of minor damage than vinyl.

4) Portability. I can take all my music with me wherever I go. If I don’t have an acceptable setup available for playing through loudspeakers, I can connect my Oppo headphones to my phone (an LG V20 which sports a decent DAC).

Having said all that, I am in the market for a new amp and am leaning toward class AB tubes because I think my Magnepan 1.7s will respond well to that configuration. Though I am intrigued by the Rogue hybrid (tube pre-amp section; Class D amplifier section), I am going to be looking for a used all tube solution (maybe Audio Research).

One more aside: According to my understanding, calling class D amps digital is a bit of a misnomer. They are no more digital than your microwave (which has some ’digitalness’ to it since it has only two modes: on and off). Like a microwave a Class D is either on or off as opposed to a Class A/B which is always on. The difference between a class D amp and a microwave is that a class D amp switches on and off so fast that it "looks" to your speaker like a varying continuous signal.

I have enjoyed this thread, and hope my post is not too long-winded. Thanks all.

Not so deep into the future we may have trouble finding brand new cheap Class AB power amplifiers.  If anything, it might be wise to buy one now if that's what you might want down the road.  Of course, a used Class AB might be available <$1000 but will the company/service manuals still be around and how soon will it need recapping and other service?

Time to chime with my direct a/b comparo
BAT VK600SE vs Red Dragon S500
Everything else the same, just swapping leads between the bat and the red dragon.

Hate to say it but it looks like the 120lb space heater is going to be looking for a new home.

I honestly thought the Red Dragon beat the BAT out on soundstage, noise floor and vocals.
The BAT may have aced it on low bass, not too surprising.
All in all the class d just sounded plain "nice" for want of a better word, no fatigue or lack of warmth, at least not to my ears, in my system with my music

blackfly

I did read your post before responding.  You said Class D "has a longs ways to go..." (without mentioning any Class D amps that you have listened to).  I gave my opinion that it doesn't have a long way to go and in previous posts compared it to some high end amplifiers I've owned, including a Class A ATI amplifier that cost over $2000.00, 20 years ago.  

You also said "go out and directly compare it to a Luxman M 800, or Accuphase A 200. No Dice."  That statement is illogical and even a little arrogant since you are judging the Luxman and the Accuphase against the NAD without listening to the NAD.  You make blanket statements as to why Class A has to be the best and D Class basically sucks.  From your bold statements, I'm sure an ATI without it's fancy chassis and lacking an inflated price tag would never be welcome in your home.

Class D can be SOTA in sound on all frequencies. Need to hear some of the best Class D to know that. Remember, those economical  Class D amps in subs and speakers do not speak to the whole market of Class D offerings. 

hk_fan

... Class-D is not the end all be all for subs.  They're used in subs because they are cheap and can put out lots of power ...

Agreed! There's no question that when it comes to size, weight, price and power consumption, it's tough to top Class D. As for sound quality ... that's another matter altogether.

I also agree that Class-D is not the end all be all for subs.  They're used in subs because they are cheap and can put out lots of power.  I've owned a couple of subs with Class-D subs and one with a traditional A/B external amplifier (RBH).  To my ear it was much more natural sounding when used with music.

blackfly

... Class D in the bass is penultimate (again, the reason it is the best amp for subs), go out and directly compare it to a Luxman M 800, or Accuphase A 200.  No dice.

Penultimate to what? Your statement doesn't make any sense. In any event, I haven't met a Class D amp that compares with the best of the "conventional" amps. Of course, I haven't heard them all.

AGE DOES NOT MEAN A THING.  Circuit topology and implementation are everything (including parts quality). 

Agree 100% with Blackfly.
Actually very often older classc gear puts the so called "latest and gratest" to shame.

jimman2

You did not read my post.  My Bryston 14b SST was bought new in 2009 and had the lowest noise floor of any amp I have heard, and measured.  My noise floor on the Luxmans I have is negligible (think modern low) and distortion nonexistent.  AGE DOES NOT MEAN A THING.  Circuit topology and implementation are everything (including parts quality).  Moreover, your $3000 NAD, new is about what the going price for one of my 30+ year old amps is about these days, condition considered.  Moreover, although you might be impressed, it is your perception that gives your opinion.  I have heard current amps at $10k that do not touch the amps I have, and even better, since age is considered, I get what I want at bargain, really, since the sound is so good.  IF you think your NAD is that good; and I give this:  Class D in the bass is penultimate (again, the reason it is the best amp for subs), go out and directly compare it to a Luxman M 800, or Accuphase A 200.  No dice.  Like a lot of things in audio, once one has made the A/B test the results often present themselves.  I never thought I would of gotten rid of a near new Bryston 14b SST on the thought it was good, but in the listening, the proof was there, and I was sold.  

And in terms of amplification being science, we have proven the "Julian Hirsch Ideology" moot.  If music and sound were purely scientific there would be no art.

"Future generations will look at amps that are not class d or digital as dinosaur fossils . There will be no mass market makers of class A or ab or anyone to service them . I don't think I will be around when this happens but class A , AB inevitably will disappear ."

You mean those generations that prefer music from their iPhone in the form of compressed mp3's, or God forbid streaming from their "Alexa" eavesdropping device?  LOL

Eventually we will probably stream digital directly into our neural implant, but somewhere there will still be vacuum tubes glowing as life forms listen to the latest hit from the andromeda galaxies latest super-group, Faith +1.  

 The new will replace the old over time, as it always has.

Yes, we are all going to die, we get it.

Technological "advances" are nothing new with Class D amps.
I'm in my mid 50's, with children in their mid 20's to early 30's.
Despite all of the new ways to communicate that weren't around when I was their age, internet , smart phones, Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, etc., etc., they still struggle to communicate on a human level. They seem to lack negotiating, haggling, bartering, and just general bull-sh!tting skills.
Yet they are not inferior to my generation, nor better.

I would not say that my children's lives are any better than mine, just as my life is no better than my children's, my father or grandfathers.
Newer is not better or worse, only different.

If you enjoy Class D amps, that's terrific!
If you enjoy SET amps, that's super!
If you enjoy Class A, A/B, G, H, etc., that's awesome!
If you enjoy vinyl, digital, computer, that's fabulous!

The main goal in this hobby is that you are enjoying music.
Whatever "tool" helps you to enjoy the music more is a good thing, no?

Cheers,
John

MHO...

Class D has already surpassed all else in terms of 'units in service', if you count cell phones and any portable digital device.  As for the quality, it'll turn on demand.  What with the rise of headphones and ear buds, that is what will ultimately 'push' the market's response.  'Home theater' will benefit from that, and will add to that demand.  Smaller, more powerful, better response will prevail.  All else will eventually become 'niche' or 'vintage', which is already occurring.

Digital will win, analog will fade, becoming the 'start' but not the end product.
'Analog' will be what you experience at a live venue, instantly becoming digital with the means of amplifying it or recording/reproducing it.  Is mostly thus already...

'Flat panel' speakers are another subject we can dis about and over...  DML's are beginning to be less laughable already.  Why would someone want an ugly or even stylish 'monkey box' cluttering up their already small living space when they could have this 'picture' like object hanging on the wall that sounds great 'enough' and a subwoofer is the coffee table?

As J. Lennon suggested, "The war is over."  The new will replace the old over time, as it always has.

Unless you'd like to get rid of that nice UHD flat panel TV you've got, and go back to CRT's, I'll suggest that y'all get used to the future.  It's here already, becoming the past as we sit and bitch about 'change' and how we may not like it...

Or, to be really crass about it....it's 'vintage' already.  Get Over It.

Future generations will look at amps that are not class d or digital as dinosaur fossils . There will be no mass market makers of class A or ab or anyone to service them . I don't think I will be around when this happens but class A , AB  inevitably will disappear .

@blackfly 

Class D amps have come a long long way since their inception when they were used solely as sub amps.  I'll argue that they don't have a long way to go as many of us in this thread feel they are equal if not superior to the Class A and A/B amps we've used, some very expensive.  I can almost guarantee that your 30 year old amps have nowhere near the low noise floor, damping factor, etc. of the NAD M22.  Amplification of sound is still science and people are starting to refer to Class D as possible near perfect amplification. The soundstage and imaging of this amp in my setup is off the charts - it's not a cheap amp at $3000.00.   My 2 little KEF LS50 speakers have disappeared from my room.  I think you need to take another listen.

Good thread.

I have twin Luxman M 05s in my system (Class A) and although 30 years old the sound is superb.  Far better than the Bryston 14b SST they replaced, despite the age difference.  I think, however, after hearing a few Class D amps they have a long way to go.  They DO however, make excellent sub amps, which is why you get subs now with the high power for long excursion (the first being the Sunfire True Subwoofer, IIRC correctly).  But subs don't need treble sweetness or soundstaging or imaging as a amp for mains would need.  Moreover, they are not nearly as pure in the treble and midrange liquidity as a good Class A amp can provide.  In fact, I doubt seriously that the Class D amp will compete in this regard, although I do see a time when Class D could compete with Class A/B amps.  I think Class A (either solid stage or tube) is just a step above and those whom have heard them (like me) are willing to pay the premium for the sound.  I cannot see myself ever going back from Class A and sure hope that there are offerings around when I do need it.  The Accuphase A 200 mono Class A amps are my dream go-to amps, now if only I could find a way to afford them.

Speaking of pricing......